Dipoles for sides? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 19 Old 06-04-2019, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Dipoles for sides?

Was reading an article just now that said that dipole speakers are really supposed to be used for side speakers. Is this correct?

It said that technically, you could use them for back surrounds, but they are really for a side diffuse sound field.

If this is accurate, then am I to assume the optimal surround setup is to have normal bookshelf speakers for the rear surround, and dipoles on the sides?

Also, this article also said you can get a more diffuse rear surround field if you face the rear bookshelf speakers toward each other rather than pointing straight away from the wall.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 02:23 PM
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Yes, that is true, but only for a "traditional" 7.1 setup. Atmos uses direct radiating speakers in all locations.
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post #3 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDB553 View Post
Was reading an article just now that said that dipole speakers are really supposed to be used for side speakers. Is this correct?

It said that technically, you could use them for back surrounds, but they are really for a side diffuse sound field.

If this is accurate, then am I to assume the optimal surround setup is to have normal bookshelf speakers for the rear surround, and dipoles on the sides?

Also, this article also said you can get a more diffuse rear surround field if you face the rear bookshelf speakers toward each other rather than pointing straight away from the wall.

Thanks.
Dipoles are pretty much out as a recommended speaker design nowadays. If you are sitting fairly close to the side and rear walls, then bipoles are okay in this instance.

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post #4 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 03:40 PM
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When Sound Tracks are Recorded and Mastered, the Music Producer has to make some CHOICES as to how many Microphones to use and HOW to either "Treat" or "Create" the Ambient Room Reverberations (coming from many different directions). And as part of this process they have to CHOSE what sort of MONITORING system they will use....which could be classic DD5.1 type...or DD7.1 type....or ATMOS 7.4.1 type. So what you "SHOULD" use for playback "SHOULD" match what the Music Producer used.

When Dolby added the two SIDE Speakers, they initially recommended that a DIPOLE type speaker be used, such as an OPEN-BACK Speaker directing sound Directly to the Front and Back Walls....intended mostly to add "Room Ambience", i.e. Diffuse Delayed Sound when it eventually reached the Listeners's Ears. Note that this results in a NULL being directed towards the Listener's position.

Later on, Speaker mfrs came up with Side Speakers containing TWO Speakers, each mounted at 45-deg Angle to the Side Wall, generating sound either OUT-OF-PHASE (Di-Pole similar to Open-Back Speaker) or IN-PHASE (Bi-Pole) without a NULL towards the Listener (and hence closer to a Monopole)....resulting in somewhat different "Room Ambience".

When MOVIE Music Producers started playing with Dolby's Surround System, they created SOME Movie Sound Tracks that TRIED to emulate (say) a helicopter encircling the Listener....which clearly was BEST if a Monopole type speaker was used for the SIDE Speakers [and Bi-Pole second choice], thereby creating a Coherent Sound as multiple speakers are called on to "fill-in" the in-between angles. This is even more true for ATMOS, with Sound coming from ANY SPECIFIED [and moving] Direction.

So the "best" arrangement for SOME Sound Tracks might sound better with Di-Pole SIDE Speakers, where they are TRYING to generate "Room Ambience"....and might sound better with Monopole (or not quite as good Bi-Pole) SIDE Speakers, where they are TRYING to generate moving Sound "Objects".

More of my musings on the subject of Room Ambience and Di-Pole/Bi-Pole speakers:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post54822222
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post54514009
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post #5 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 03:57 PM
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Not just my opinion but better ears than me area saying 100% no way to di poles and also nix the bi poles which although are acceptable are not optimal as monpoles, for an Atmos system. Reg 5.1 keep the bi's. Because people get confused when mentioning atmos, as far as the engineering of a movie atmos mix (not the ceiling speakers) it is much more deliberate, things are going to a specific speaker for a reason especially in 7.2 and 7.2.4. For this reason mono's should be strongly considered unless the side channels are literally super close to the listeners head and some diffusion is needed. So IMO anyone with an atmos system should not go with bi's they are on the way out, and never consider di's.

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post #6 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Sleeve View Post
Not just my opinion but better ears than me area saying 100% no way to di poles and also nix the bi poles which although are acceptable are not optimal as monpoles, for an Atmos system. Reg 5.1 keep the bi's. Because people get confused when mentioning atmos, as far as the engineering of a movie atmos mix (not the ceiling speakers) it is much more deliberate, things are going to a specific speaker for a reason especially in 7.2 and 7.2.4. For this reason mono's should be strongly considered unless the side channels are literally super close to the listeners head and some diffusion is needed. So IMO anyone with an atmos system should not go with bi's they are on the way out, and never consider di's.
What's considered super close at the sides where bi's would be needed? What would be the minimum distance at each side where mono's can acceptably be used and if needed, possibly angling them somewhat from the MLP? I may be in this situation. One side can have the cone sitting about 5 ft. away.
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post #7 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Sleeve View Post
Not just my opinion but better ears than me area saying 100% no way to di poles and also nix the bi poles which although are acceptable are not optimal as monpoles, for an Atmos system. Reg 5.1 keep the bi's. Because people get confused when mentioning atmos, as far as the engineering of a movie atmos mix (not the ceiling speakers) it is much more deliberate, things are going to a specific speaker for a reason especially in 7.2 and 7.2.4. For this reason mono's should be strongly considered unless the side channels are literally super close to the listeners head and some diffusion is needed. So IMO anyone with an atmos system should not go with bi's they are on the way out, and never consider di's.
What's considered super close at the sides where bi's would be needed? What would be the minimum distance at each side where mono's can acceptably be used and if needed, possibly angling them somewhat from the MLP? I may be in this situation. One side can have the cone sitting about 5 ft. away.
I've heard up to and around 3 to 4 feet away for potential bipole use. Though a big slab of "it depends" is laying on the table. Some people with sides and rears a little further back may be partial to a bit more diffuse-ness and sometimes... here we go... it depends on the dispersion characteristics of the monopole being considered for surround duty.
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post #8 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 05:56 PM
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What's considered super close at the sides where bi's would be needed? What would be the minimum distance at each side where mono's can acceptably be used and if needed, possibly angling them somewhat from the MLP? I may be in this situation. One side can have the cone sitting about 5 ft. away.
I have Emotiva E2 i use for surround speakers. Couch is 1 ft from wall and E1 did not sound good. My room is the main issue since i cant mount side soeakers all speakers behind the wall. 11ft couch and it was not filling for sound. I also cant really run a 7.1 system with how close the couch is to the wall. I run the speakers in inverse bipole after trying dipole and bipole setting, what sounded best to me. I do like them and have no issues with sound seperation between atmos and surround speakers. After reading up on them here i would not have purchased E2 speakers untill i talked to emotiva and explained my issue i was having. They work well for my room atleast cant say they would work well for others though.
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post #9 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I've heard up to and around 3 to 4 feet away for potential bipole use. Though a big slab of "it depends" is laying on the table. Some people with sides and rears a little further back may be partial to a bit more diffuse-ness and sometimes... here we go... it depends on the dispersion characteristics of the monopole being considered for surround duty.
So there's somewhat of a chance I can run mono's at 5 ft. on the sides? I just setup B&W for LCR. May try to match these for side surrounds if I can avoid using bi's.

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post #10 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 07:19 PM
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Was reading an article just now that said that dipole speakers are really supposed to be used for side speakers. Is this correct?
Dipole surrounds are a solution to a problem. Movies are usually mixed in rooms that mimic movie theatres, where each surround channel plays back through an array of surround speakers. That is how movie mixers hear their mixes. The problem with a 5.1 set-up at home is how to get 2 surround speaker to sound like 2 surround arrays?

Of all the types of speakers out there, dipoles come closest to that effect. That's because their 2 sets of drivers are wired out of phase with each other, resulting in a cancelation (null) between the two sets of drivers. By placing the dipole surrounds directly to the sides, the entire row of listeners ends up sitting in the null. This way, the listeners hear less direct sound (from the speaker) and mostly diffuse sound (reflected off nearby walls). Similar to how the mixer heard it.

Dipole surrounds are also useful in very narrow rooms, allowing you to place surround speakers directly to your sides without overwhelming the listeners sitting at either end of the row (much less distracting to be sitting in a null than having a monopole surround speaker shouting down your ear canal from a couple feet away).

BTW, dipole surrounds can also be used behind you as rears in a 7.1 set-up, as long as you remember to aim the null towards the listeners to minimize direct sound from the speakers and keep their sound diffuse.

All of this comes down to personal preference. If you want a really diffuse surround field that's very enveloping, then use dipole surrounds. But if you want more directionality, with phantom imaging floating between speakers in the surround field, then use monopole surrounds. Or bipoles, if you want an effect in between. Won't sound like a movie theatre, but some people (like me) prefer it. YMMV.
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post #11 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 07:29 PM
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I've heard up to and around 3 to 4 feet away for potential bipole use. Though a big slab of "it depends" is laying on the table. Some people with sides and rears a little further back may be partial to a bit more diffuse-ness and sometimes... here we go... it depends on the dispersion characteristics of the monopole being considered for surround duty.
So there's somewhat of a chance I can run mono's at 5 ft. on the sides? I just setup B&W for LCR. May try to match these for side surrounds if I can avoid using bi's.
They may indeed work well in that situation. All you can do is try and hope you dealer has a good return or exchange program.

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post #12 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Dipole surrounds are a solution to a problem. Movies are usually mixed in rooms that mimic movie theatres, where each surround channel plays back through an array of surround speakers. That is how movie mixers hear their mixes. The problem with a 5.1 set-up at home is how to get 2 surround speaker to sound like 2 surround arrays?

Of all the types of speakers out there, dipoles come closest to that effect. That's because their 2 sets of drivers are wired out of phase with each other, resulting in a cancelation (null) between the two sets of drivers. By placing the dipole surrounds directly to the sides, the entire row of listeners ends up sitting in the null. This way, the listeners hear less direct sound (from the speaker) and mostly diffuse sound (reflected off nearby walls). Similar to how the mixer heard it.

Dipole surrounds are also useful in very narrow rooms, allowing you to place surround speakers directly to your sides without overwhelming the listeners sitting at either end of the row (much less distracting to be sitting in a null than having a monopole surround speaker shouting down your ear canal from a couple feet away).

BTW, dipole surrounds can also be used behind you as rears in a 7.1 set-up, as long as you remember to aim the null towards the listeners to minimize direct sound from the speakers and keep their sound diffuse.

All of this comes down to personal preference. If you want a really diffuse surround field that's very enveloping, then use dipole surrounds. But if you want more directionality, with phantom imaging floating between speakers in the surround field, then use monopole surrounds. Or bipoles, if you want an effect in between. Won't sound like a movie theatre, but some people (like me) prefer it. YMMV.
This is a great description. I have a full Triad 7.2 set-up and use Triad Dipoles (OnWall Gold) at the sides and rear in my relatively small dedicated theater. The "diffuse" sound the dipoles produce works very well in my room, where - at the sides - the speakers are roughly 4 feet away from the two outer chairs (front row), and the rears are on the back wall where the second row of seats backs up to. Using monopoles in the back would not be good for people sitting in the back.

So, overall, while dipoles may seem so 1998, they definitely do still serve a purpose - of which Sanjay finely details above.
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post #13 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Appreciate the responses, looks like in my living room, normal bookshelf speakers may be best.

I have some questions about placement and aiming, but would be best to wait until I can take some pictures of my living room so you can visualize it. I'll try to do that this weekend.
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post #14 of 19 Old 06-05-2019, 09:10 PM
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The "diffuse" sound the dipoles produce works very well in my room, where - at the sides - the speakers are roughly 4 feet away from the two outer chairs (front row), and the rears are on the back wall where the second row of seats backs up to.
Detractors give the impression that you lose all directionality but, having heard 7.1 set-ups with dipole surrounds, I could still tell when sounds were coming from my left vs my right vs behind me.
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post #15 of 19 Old 06-08-2019, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are the images of all 4 sides of my living room. Front wall is pretty standard, as is the left wall, but the right wall opens up into the formal dining room area and the front door, and the rear wall is a half wall, and opens into the kitchen.

On the side that opens to the front door, there is a roughly 2 foot drop down from the ceiling and the rear wall is already wired for surround speakers as you can see the speaker wire plates, but they are up high, about a foot down from the ceiling.

So, I haven't mounted my current speakers to the rear wall just yet, because the previous owner had some Klipsch dipoles mounted up there and from what I can see, he had them just hung on a screw near the speaker wire plate, as when I viewed the house before I bought it, the speakers were mounted flush against the wall, and not on speaker mounts. I'm not sure if the back of the Klipsch dipoles had a mounting hole on them or if he had something like a picture hanging bracket mounted to the back of the speaker that was able to just be hung on the screw that he had in the wall.

I bought some speaker mounts that are a metal bracket you screw to the wall, and there are arms that come off that brackets that you can swivel, and a platform at the end of the arm. I decided not to mount those speaker mounts because I am currently using Infinity speakers, and I plan on upgrading at some point and I didn't want to mount the infinities via wall mount if the speakers I will upgrade to will have a better mounting option that can be flush mount. I was hoping I could find a set of speakers that I also could flush mount and not have to put holes in my wall if I could help it. I will mount the brackets if there is no other way, but my point is, if the speakers I purchase have a flush mount option, then I would go for that, unless a flush mount option is not the best idea.

The reason I say if a flush mount is not a valid option is because of where the speaker wire plates are and aiming. As you can see, they are up high, so, in order to mount the speaker and keep the plate and the wire hidden, you would also have to mount the speaker up high as well to cover the wire and plate. However, if you mount them flush, then that means the speakers would be pointing straight out from the wall. My question about that is, I am under the impression that surrounds need to be placed just above head level. That is not an option in my living room configuration, so that brings me to the point of aiming. Since I will have to mount them up high, does that mean I need to aim them downward? Also, if I need to aim them downward, is it best to keep them pointing straight again, or would I also need to angle them so they are pointing toward the listening area?

Also, I am considering having another set of speaker wire plates installed on the left and right side of the living room so I can set up 2 side channel speakers, however, as you can see, on the left side, there is a window, and on the right side there is that roughly 2 foot drop down from the ceiling before it opens into the front door area. This means the side channel speakers will also have to be mounted up high.

As you can see, I currently have my rear speakers on stands behind the couch and I just have the speaker wire running across the living room floor until I do a permanent rear wall mount. My living room is a bit wider than it is deep, so, when I am on the couch, I am about 6 to 7 feet from the front wall, and the couch is about 3 to 4 feet from the back wall, and about 4 feet from the left and right walls. I didn't want to push the couch all the way up against the back wall because the bar between the kitchen and the living room has a counter top that sticks out a little and if you were pushed up all the way against the back wall, you would be right up against that counter top overhang, also, my couch has recliners built in and they are not wall huggers. Also, I have end tables on either side of my couch and pushing it against the rear wall would cause the left end table to block the path from the kitchen to the living room. If having the couch up against the rear wall is a better idea, I could do it by removing one end table, and leave the couch out just enough to clear the wall when it is reclined, which would be about less than a foot.

Also, I wasn't sure if having the couch placed near the rear wall would be a good idea as having your head, when sitting in the couch, near the rear wall where the rear surrounds are placed would be an issue with sound, since your head would technically be right in line with the same plane as the speakers, especially if I mount these arm type speaker mounts, the rear speakers would almost be sticking out even with or even in front of your ears, or if it's better to put a little space between the rear wall where the speakers are mounted and your sitting position.

I was hoping someone could give me some advice on mounting options, placement and aiming.

thank you.
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post #16 of 19 Old 06-08-2019, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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hmm, where did my pictures go....
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post #17 of 19 Old 06-08-2019, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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ok, lets try this.....
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post #18 of 19 Old 06-12-2019, 07:16 PM
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My Prestige 25S are in the corners on shelves and used as my surrounds. Sounds amazing.

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post #19 of 19 Old Yesterday, 04:43 PM
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If you had a pair of JBL S4Ai speakers, you could try all three configurations.

"The S4Ai multipole ambient surround speakers feature the unique capability of being configured in any of three operational modes. Choose between Dipolar or Bipolar operation for cinema reproduction, and Direct Radiating for music. Both Dipole and Bipole modes are diffusive, meaning there is less energy on-axis than off-axis relative to the front of the speaker baffle."

Actually, you can use any of the three modes in both music and movies, depending on how you want to set it up. In my previous HT, experienced guests were often oblivious as to which mode was in effect unless it was revealed.

I believe these are now discontinued by JBL but are still available on the used market for very reasonable prices.

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
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