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post #421 of 554 Old 08-28-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
This conclusion is productive because it allows us to realize that spinorama measurements cannot possibly be telling the entire story of sound quality, with zero exceptions: Such a thing is clearly logically and scientifically impossible, at this point.
No one has claimed there are zero exceptions and no one has claimed that the model is 100% perfect without room for improvement. Here is what it says in the conclusion of the study:

A new model has been developed that accurately predicts preference ratings of loudspeakers based on their anechoic measured frequency response. Our model produced near-perfect correlation (r = 0.995) with measured preferences based on a sample of 13 loudspeakers reported in Part One. Our generalized model produced a correlation of 0.86 using a sample of 70 loudspeakers evaluated in 19 listening tests. Higher correlations may be possible as we improve the accuracy and resolution of our subjective measurements, which is a current limiting factor. The independent variables that predict loudspeaker preference rating include measures of the amplitude deviations in the on-axis response, the predicted in-room response and the low frequency response. Each sound component in the model has equal importance in predicting preference.
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post #422 of 554 Old 08-28-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by RAAL. View Post
No, it's not what I said. Quite the opposite on both questions.


How did you conclude that I see time domain separately from FR when I said repeatedly that it's a min.phase system and that Toole, as everyone else, is right on that very basic principle?
What I am not saying that is confusing, so I can explain it better?
Quite clear now. I re-read the original post. English is not my primary language.

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post #423 of 554 Old 08-28-2019, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post
Good to see you here Aleksandar! You might be confusing Floyd Toole with D.B. Keele concerning a curved CBT array. Here's one I designed using the 70-20XR ribbon.
Yo, Rick! Good to read you here!


Gee, you're right! Another proof that I can't do multitasking. I don't know why I attributed that to Toole, thank you for reminding me what's right.

So, considering your long-time experience and interest in line arrays, how does it sound compared to straight ones, and even bent ones without Keele tapering?
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post #424 of 554 Old 08-28-2019, 11:33 AM
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The claims you all clarified before-hand were absolutist claims
1) Most of the absolutist claims have, in fact, come from you in the form of straw-man arguments. I even pointed out for your prior thought experiment that claiming there is no difference in preference rating is not the same as claiming there's absolutely no difference with the way they sound. That you decided to ignore it does not make your absolutist straw-man applicable to me.



2) Your lack of anything resembling understanding of designing an experiment in a way that is applicable to anything in the real world (and therefore, has any meaning at all) has reached comic heights. "Let's design a filter that, upon recognizing the baseline from any Led Zeppelin song, the music is digitally replaced with a Britney Spears song and the volume is increased to maximum. What a horrible speaker! It sounds so bad with music! And the Spin didn't identify the problem! Spins are Bunk!"




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post #425 of 554 Old 08-28-2019, 11:35 AM
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Yup; input signal is not device behavior.

At some point somebody needs to go talk to Hilbert...
At what point does a filter become a part of the device though? If I put an analog implementation of my filter within a driver module, what right do you have to claim that this isn't defying your spinorama claims? On what grounds could you claim this -- that if you tear open the driver, it has funny electronic parts in it? That was never a part of your original claim.

Your original claim was never "the spinorama will always decide which speaker sounds better subjectively, UNLESS I tear the transducers apart and find funny electronic parts inside I don't like the look or smell of". You know this was never the original claim, and you should admit it if you want to maintain your intellectual honesty here.

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No one has claimed there are zero exceptions and no one has claimed that the model is 100% perfect without room for improvement.
No, this is not what you said. If you had actually held this position, there would have been no disagreement.

I gave you plenty of opportunity to clarify your position with utter precision. This is why I had you explicitly answer my 2 choice question:

Quote:
1. Either you must dispute my claim that I can produce this filter...

2. Or, you must admit that is IS theoretically possible for speakers to sound significantly different than their spin measurements imply — because my filter demonstrates this concretely.

Which is it? Choose one. You can’t have it both ways, because these two options are mutually exclusive.
I was very specific about this, because I anticipated you would try to slip away from your stance to avoid formally conceding.

You chose option (1). Several others did as well. (1) claims that it is NOT theoretically possible for any exceptions to exist to this claim of spinoramas. There is a reason why I was so careful to be incredibly explicit about what these choices imply, and to gather your stance on these points BEFORE I provided my example.

Yet you still try to walk back your stance without the intellectual honest to just admit your stance was, in fact, wrong (as it was made very specific and precise here).

I think I'm done arguing here with you; you're clearly not going to treat this debate with a level of intellectual respect necessary for productive debate.

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post #426 of 554 Old 08-28-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
Yet you still try to walk back your stance without the intellectual honest to just admit your stance was, in fact, wrong (as it was made very specific and precise here).

I think I'm done arguing here with you; you're clearly not going to treat this debate with a level of intellectual respect necessary for productive debate.
It's comical that you of all people want to talk about intellectual honesty after essentially trolling us the past few days. You didn't show that a speaker could measure worse in the Spinorama yet subjectively be preferred, including your own speakers in which you chose the more neutral speaker. Furthermore, we're back to where we started with what the Science shows in that Harman is able to predict subjective preference using only the Spinorama with a near perfect correlation.

I do agree that if you have nothing of value to add to the discussion you should probably stop.
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post #427 of 554 Old 08-28-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
It's comical that you of all people want to talk about intellectual honesty after essentially trolling us the past few days. You didn't show that a speaker could measure worse in the Spinorama yet subjectively be preferred, including your own speakers in which you chose the more neutral speaker. Furthermore, we're back to where we started with what the Science shows in that Harman is able to predict subjective preference using only the Spinorama with a near perfect correlation.

I do agree that if you have nothing of value to add to the discussion you should probably stop.
Clearly there is no consensus here, or none you will tolerate. I am satisfied with the consensus of the readers, which by the overall trend of this thread are overwhelmingly not in your favor (though I'm sure you'll find a way to re-imagine even that truth)!
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post #428 of 554 Old 08-28-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
At what point does a filter become a part of the device though?
That should be quite evident: At the point the acoustics of the electro-mechanical elements and functions manifest themselves - in this case, in space - that speaker's spin-based behaviors are in evidence. They, after all, are the envelope that behavior stems fully intact from - they are the speaker.

Hank Williams is not the speaker, as was just noted upthread. When my speaker clearly sounds different on bebop than it did on Celine Dion while spinning identically on MLS noise, I cannot assert I've changed the speaker.

However, to avoid the usual false dichotomy, and to your excellent points here, an analysis of a speaker's recorded power response might not practically describe all reproduced sound either, nor should we conflate it from the sounds of two different signals spinning the same where they engage the speaker the same.

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If I put an analog implementation of my filter within a driver module, what right do you have to claim that this isn't defying your spinorama claims? On what grounds could you claim this -- that if you tear open the driver, it has funny electronic parts in it? That was never a part of your original claim.
My original claim is also upthread and, agree or disagree, it did not allow that extra-speaker trickery should impair the input signal to make a logically-flawed point about the downstream device's output behavior any more than it can be changed with a new musical genre. But again, since I'm not claiming all sound derives from certain data either, you don't have to go to that length and shouldn't. But I also have no justification to deny how speaker behaviors inherently, eternally convolve.

Two things: You're still speaking in the theoretical - consult Hilbert on the physical - and I didn't make the claim that we can deduce sound from constituent behaviors.

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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
Your original claim was never "the spinorama will always decide which speaker sounds better subjectively, UNLESS I tear the transducers apart and find funny electronic parts inside I don't like the look or smell of". You know this was never the original claim, and you should admit it if you want to maintain your intellectual honesty here.
Frankly, as tortured as all this has become, it doesn't warrant another rebuttal, and with that last remark, there's less reason to try. The facts and points are clear..

Here's the thing: For years I've been hounded for having the temerity to make some stuff that people liked the sound of. This was certainly impossible because it violated another popular narrative, which was a previous version of what we're now both challenging, that sound surely must follow data. I just knew that the data was insufficient, not that that's surprising.

Now we have the new narrative; that sound now must follow a different data metric and that if it doesn't it's automatically defective just by different means. Here we're agreed because here again, we find that something in there is incomplete.

What's next? (You can see where this is going.) The next adamant conventional wisdom will be either some new metric, or even just that previous metrics were defective, and the hue and cry will go up again just how both SPL and power response aren't suitable and only the ignorant would say otherwise. Or something.

And it'll all come from the same approximate quarter - waning after-guards persist and rings must be kissed. It'll be just three short steps, none of which have entertained the only proof very well, which simply asks which illusion engine best suspends disbelief, a sensory reaction that also elevates the mind. It takes a lot of time and treasure to do that, and in defense of your point, it's largely unpredictable from the current metric. The reasons are many and they cut across a lot of terms and domains.

I don't disagree with the shared premise that such technical complexity is not reducible, which I think is central to your assertions.
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post #429 of 554 Old 08-28-2019, 12:55 PM
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Yo, Rick! Good to read you here!


Gee, you're right! Another proof that I can't do multitasking. I don't know why I attributed that to Toole, thank you for reminding me what's right.

So, considering your long-time experience and interest in line arrays, how does it sound compared to straight ones, and even bent ones without Keele tapering?
The CBT arrays perform great but the cabinets of course are more complex. The power tapering really makes a difference and I use it in straight arrays as well.

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post #430 of 554 Old 08-28-2019, 05:15 PM
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So yes, if he was for profit, he’d probably expand (he has the market to do so) his business and move out of the ID sector.
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The idea that people on here not only think that's unlikely but that it's a "known scientific fact, from credible sources, peer reviewed, and used by many companies" that what I'm describing can't happen makes me think that the definition of "known scientific fact" that many on this forum apply is different from the one I am more familiar with in terms of repeatability and objectivity....
Considering the amount of damping for the system, as expressed by qtc, affects the shape of the low end response, it's not surprising you can hear a difference between settings. Like most things in audio, there are trade-offs in the usable range of qtc from the overdamped .5 with the best transient response but lower output, to the other extreme around 1.0, which has a peakier response, but higher output and degraded transients. Many consider .707 an ideal balance of flat response and good transient performance. Of course, application and personal preference are factors.

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post #432 of 554 Old 08-29-2019, 06:30 PM
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Aarons915 Im sure if you explain everything one more time it will get much more clear. 99 times was just not enough. If you stopped trying to get in the last word, your "attack" would have been over long ago. The speaker business seems to have a bunch of incredibly nice guys in it. And you have pissed off 3 of the nicest. Maybe just walk away and realize, for whatever reason there is a group of people that disagree with you and will never see your way.
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post #433 of 554 Old 08-29-2019, 07:38 PM
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Aarons915 Im sure if you explain everything one more time it will get much more clear. 99 times was just not enough. If you stopped trying to get in the last word, your "attack" would have been over long ago. The speaker business seems to have a bunch of incredibly nice guys in it. And you have pissed off 3 of the nicest. Maybe just walk away and realize, for whatever reason there is a group of people that disagree with you and will never see your way.
This is true, he tries to get the last word every single time, it's hilarious. Life's too short to waste time running around in circles.
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post #434 of 554 Old 08-30-2019, 09:36 AM
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One thing that I've learned from this thread?

The Ascend speaker owners group has some of the sharpest pitchforks around!
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post #435 of 554 Old 08-30-2019, 10:26 AM
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One thing I learned from this thread:

You are a serious genius when they name sh*t after you ( Fourier, Hilbert, and Dirac).
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post #436 of 554 Old 08-30-2019, 11:52 AM
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One thing that I've learned from this thread?

The Ascend speaker owners group has some of the sharpest pitchforks around!
IDK, I'd venture to say that the majority of Ascend owners don't even own RAAL speakers!

I don't own any RAAL speakers or Ascends but recognize that Salk and Selah Audio like RAAL even though their most expensive offerings to not have them.

And while Dennis Murphy was in business he sent his BMR around the Country on his own dime and of the 30+ people that heard them I'd guess 90 percent liked them so there is something to be said for the design.

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post #437 of 554 Old 08-30-2019, 12:21 PM
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IDK, I'd venture to say that the majority of Ascend owners don't even own RAAL speakers!
Well, the 4 or 5 who posted to this thread do, anyway. Those were the owners I was referencing.
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post #438 of 554 Old 08-31-2019, 08:59 AM
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IDK, I'd venture to say that the majority of Ascend owners don't even own RAAL speakers!

I don't own any RAAL speakers or Ascends but recognize that Salk and Selah Audio like RAAL even though their most expensive offerings to not have them.

And while Dennis Murphy was in business he sent his BMR around the Country on his own dime and of the 30+ people that heard them I'd guess 90 percent liked them so there is something to be said for the design.
I'm currently working on five new designs and all have RAAL tweeters.

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post #439 of 554 Old 09-03-2019, 08:58 PM
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One thing I learned from this thread:

You are a serious genius when they name sh*t after you ( Fourier, Hilbert, and Dirac).
Linkwitz, Riley
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Food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
As discussed in my books, there is no evidence of significant phase sensitivity in humans so we do not hear waveforms, whether they are music, voice, impulses or square waves . Even group delay is inaudible if it is less than about 2 ms. This insensitivity to events in the time domain also extends to ringing of resonances. We pay close attention to the amplitude vs. frequency response bumps exhibited by resonances, not to the ringing itself. This is true even for room resonances. Interesting . . .
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Technically the impulse response of a loudspeaker can be Fourier transformed into the amplitude and phase responses vs. frequency. They are interchangeable information. Perceptually, though, it is the amplitude response that is the prime determinant of how a loudspeaker sounds. Humans are substantially unresponsive to phase shift - this means that we do not hear waveforms. This fact has not prevented people from promoting impulse or step response as being somehow meaningful beyond showing evidence of resonances. Resonances definitely are audible, but the metric of how audible is in the amplitude response, not the time domain response. Just because we can measure it does not mean that it matters.

See section 4.8.1 in the 3rd edition of my book.
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post #441 of 554 Old 09-04-2019, 12:42 AM
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Food for thought.

You’re really trying to stir the pot huh?


Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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In these quotes Floyd Toole admits that phase errors exceeding 2ms are audible (of course, that’s what research has shown).

Didn’t Dave from Ascend mention that other tweeters have measurable phase errors that are >2ms worse than how the RAAL measures? Is this true? If so, how is this not an example where Dr. Toole would agree that the RAAL’s time domain advantages here are audible?

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post #443 of 554 Old 09-04-2019, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
In these quotes Floyd Toole admits that phase errors exceeding 2ms are audible (of course, that’s what research has shown).

Didn’t Dave from Ascend mention that other tweeters have measurable phase errors that are >2ms worse than how the RAAL measures? Is this true? If so, how is this not an example where Dr. Toole would agree that the RAAL’s time domain advantages here are audible?
I think you're focusing too much on that number and missing his main point - changes in impulse behavior that are large enough to be audible show up as bumps in the frequency response. So, we are back to looking for speakers with smooth frequency response measurements.

And, there is some evidence that group delay needs to be quite a bit higher than 2ms to be audible in a room which has its own resonances.
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And, there is some evidence that group delay needs to be quite a bit higher than 2ms to be audible in a room which has its own resonances.
False. I listen to all my music in an anechoic chamber, while suspended from the ceiling with a motorized boom, steel cable, and harness. The swinging effect also really contributes to the sense that I'm floating in a vast soundscape that flows all around me, and increases PRaT by over 9000%. I also use the motorized boom to conduct human spinoramas using my ears, while humming the Canadian national anthem (in homage to the NRC's legendary contributions to psycho-acoustics, of course) in a microphone, which then plays through the speakers as the test sound.






(JK)

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I’m not sure if anyone else wasn’t aware, but this conversation has mostly moved to the Harman thread “How to Choose a Loudspeaker - What the science shows”.

More good info there and of course, the highest quality discussions.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
I’️m not sure if anyone else wasn’️t aware, but this conversation has mostly moved to the Harman thread “How to Choose a Loudspeaker - What the science showsâ€Â.

More good info there and of course, the highest quality discussions.
YES! I definitely need more drama in my life. Over the past few days, my life has had a notable lack of involvement with religious fanatics debating the definition of science.

I haven’t even read the thread yet, but if I don’t see overconfident keyboard warriors with no reputation attacking RAAL and/or Ascend, I’m going be very disappointed...
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post #447 of 554 Old 09-07-2019, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
I’m not sure if anyone else wasn’t aware, but this conversation has mostly moved to the Harman thread “How to Choose a Loudspeaker - What the science shows”.

More good info there and of course, the highest quality discussions.
Had no idea, but just got myself caught up. Thank you for pointing this out. And also damn you for pointing this out!!
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post #448 of 554 Old 09-07-2019, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by D33vious View Post
Had no idea, but just got myself caught up. Thank you for pointing this out. And also damn you for pointing this out!!

It would be a shame for this 400 something post thread to die that easily

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #449 of 554 Old 09-08-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
It would be a shame for this 400 something post thread to die that easily
Based on what I read there, most of the denizens of that thread are none too happy about this particular "discussion" taking root over there. Honestly, it should be apparent that Aaron has an ax to grind. He doesn't really understand the science being applied, misinterprets both Toole and the designers who have responded to him, and changes his assertions based on rebuttals given. He's intent on undermining RAAL based designs and impugning the designers of same. I had to mute him weeks ago. Surprised so many keep engaging with him as he's the classic example of head banging on brick wall.
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post #450 of 554 Old 09-08-2019, 07:58 AM
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