Wanting to upgrade to klipsch - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 07-17-2019, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Wanting to upgrade to klipsch

So I have Polk audio speakers now t15 bookshelf. They sound good don't get me wrong . But I'm looking into some klipsch reference premieres.. the rp160m I seen some reviews on YouTube going to do 6of them 2 as fronts 2 as sides and 2 as rears.. I'll put the front two on an amp probably the crown xls 1002 ..center speaker will be the rp 400c 4 ceiling speakers 5800 c2..I have an onkyo tx rz830..
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post #2 of 22 Old 07-17-2019, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Casey Lackey View Post
So I have Polk audio speakers now t15 bookshelf. They sound good don't get me wrong . But I'm looking into some klipsch reference premieres.. the rp160m I seen some reviews on YouTube going to do 6of them 2 as fronts 2 as sides and 2 as rears.. I'll put the front two on an amp probably the crown xls 1002 ..center speaker will be the rp 400c 4 ceiling speakers 5800 c2..I have an onkyo tx rz830..
Nice! The efficiency is a lot higher...96db. Should really put out compared to the Polk's 89db. The Polk T15's are excellent for the price, not sure if they can be beat purely on a price/performance bases. But the Klipsch should up the game for sure.

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post #3 of 22 Old 07-17-2019, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm hopeful that I get a more detailed sound like with bullets wizing buy in action flicks etc.. so I just wish I had done it before but I got great deals on the t15s..
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post #4 of 22 Old 07-18-2019, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Casey Lackey View Post
I'm hopeful that I get a more detailed sound like with bullets wizing buy in action flicks etc.. so I just wish I had done it before but I got great deals on the t15s..
You definitely will. The rp's will be a huge upgrade. Let us know how you like them.
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post #5 of 22 Old 07-18-2019, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Casey Lackey View Post
I'm hopeful that I get a more detailed sound like with bullets wizing buy in action flicks etc...
If you send me the money instead, I can come to your place with a handgun
I'm curious why you don't consider the towers for the L/R? And/or a subwoofer? Though instead of spending on a subwoofer, I could come to your place with a bazooka
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post #6 of 22 Old 07-19-2019, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
Nice! The efficiency is a lot higher...96db. Should really put out compared to the Polk's 89db. The Polk T15's are excellent for the price, not sure if they can be beat purely on a price/performance bases. But the Klipsch should up the game for sure.
Actually, Klipsch lies about their sensitivity to con more people into buying them for exactly this reason...they appear a lot more sensitive compared to companies who don't lie. Klipsch speakers are always at least 6 dB less sensitive than their false specs, so its probably more like 90 dB compared to 89 for the Polk, at best. They may still be good speakers, but you don't get what is advertised.
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post #7 of 22 Old 07-19-2019, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Actually, Klipsch lies about their sensitivity to con more people into buying them for exactly this reason...they appear a lot more sensitive compared to companies who don't lie. Klipsch speakers are always at least 6 dB less sensitive than their false specs, so its probably more like 90 dB compared to 89 for the Polk, at best. They may still be good speakers, but you don't get what is advertised.
Unless you're talking Klipsch Heritage. Then Klipsch are pretty accurate with regard to their sensitivity.
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post #8 of 22 Old 07-19-2019, 04:56 PM
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Here's something I once read on their website. I've met some of their engineers, had dinner with one of them.... kind of irksome to essentially have floating out on the internet, accusations that they're liars.



1) Before we let the inaccuracy be taken as fact, I would like to mention that the sensitivity specs of Klipsch speakers are not overstated. We use legitemate (sic), repeatable measuring methods. There are many different methods of rating sensitivity, but we do not attempt to hide behind specs.



2) Klipsch measures sensitivity on home loudspeakers in the following manner:

1. We place the speaker to be tested in our anechoic chamber and do a free space measurement (no boundary gain or room gain) at a distance of 3 meters. This distance is chosen in order to be in the far field of the speaker. The test signal used is wide band pink noise.

2. Starting with this result in dB, we add 9 dB to obtain a one-meter equivalency, as the industry standard for expressing sensitivity is one meter. The 9 dB difference is all inverse-square gain. Move half as far away and gain 6 dB etc. (see note below)

3. To this we add 4 dB for room gain and boundary gain to translate the measurement to a typical listening environment. Speakers are not operated in free space in any normal application. An increase in sound pressure comes from proximity to nearby walls, floor and ceiling. Theoretically, a maximum of 18 dB increase is available through corner placement but that is rarely the position chosen for full range loudspeakers; and the increase is also frequency dependent, being prominent at low frequencies. Additional measurable increase comes from room gain wherein the room is pressurized by low frequency information. Again, this is frequency dependent impacting only the low end of the spectrum. We have verified the 4 dB figure we use in numerous empirical measurements and believe it to be quite accurate. (see note below)

Our KPT-904 professional theater speaker was mentioned above. It should be noted that the KPT-904 is a model designed to be placed behind the screen at a movie theater and as such does not benefit from as much boundary reinforcement as in a typical home installation. The 4 dB room gain figure is not applied to the sensitivity measurement for such models.
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post #9 of 22 Old 07-19-2019, 05:14 PM
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The boundary gain that a consumer may or may not get based on how the speakers are placed in the room should be used in the advertised spec of a speaker, just as no other reputable speaker company does. Furthermore, the boundary gain that one may or may not get(as used in the sensitivity rating of Klipsch speakers) applies only to the lower frequencies so, again, this is a false and misleading specification. If you say something that isn't true, and you know it isn't true, and know that this false statement will sway consumers into purchasing the product based on false information when comparing to other products, its a lie.

If Polk advertises 89 dB sensitivity, and someone sees a Klipsch bookshelf with *advertised* 95 dB sensitivity, they are likely to be swayed to buy that product based on an assumed 6 dB increase in sensitivity which is, in fact, a big fat lie. I would not be happy if my sub manufacturer lied about the sensitivity of my sub by adding in corner loaded boundary gain into the spec.

Read any reputable 3rd party review of recent Klipsch products....none of them are very happy about the false sensitivity advertised. People use specs like these to base, at least in part, their purchase decisions on. Even if they are good speakers for the money based on the correct specs, I would never give a company like this my hard earned money. If Polk suddenly raised their sensitivity specs on all their speakers by 6 dB, you can guarantee they would sell A LOT more product. It's a lie used to sell more speakers.

A 6 dB lie:https://www.audioholics.com/tower-sp...00f/conclusion

Another:https://www.audioholics.com/tower-sp...ff-comparisons

Another:https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-system-review
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post #10 of 22 Old 07-19-2019, 05:34 PM
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What about avr manufacturers lying about rated output, or car manufacturers lying about rated mpg, etc. Klipsch must be doing something right they have been in business a long time and I don't think there going anywhere soon.
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post #11 of 22 Old 07-19-2019, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The boundary gain that a consumer may or may not get based on how the speakers are placed in the room should be used in the advertised spec of a speaker, just as no other reputable speaker company does. Furthermore, the boundary gain that one may or may not get(as used in the sensitivity rating of Klipsch speakers) applies only to the lower frequencies so, again, this is a false and misleading specification. If you say something that isn't true, and you know it isn't true, and know that this false statement will sway consumers into purchasing the product based on false information when comparing to other products, its a lie.

If Polk advertises 89 dB sensitivity, and someone sees a Klipsch bookshelf with *advertised* 95 dB sensitivity, they are likely to be swayed to buy that product based on an assumed 6 dB increase in sensitivity which is, in fact, a big fat lie. I would not be happy if my sub manufacturer lied about the sensitivity of my sub by adding in corner loaded boundary gain into the spec.

Read any reputable 3rd party review of recent Klipsch products....none of them are very happy about the false sensitivity advertised. People use specs like these to base, at least in part, their purchase decisions on. Even if they are good speakers for the money based on the correct specs, I would never give a company like this my hard earned money. If Polk suddenly raised their sensitivity specs on all their speakers by 6 dB, you can guarantee they would sell A LOT more product. It's a lie used to sell more speakers.

A 6 dB lie:https://www.audioholics.com/tower-sp...00f/conclusion

Another:https://www.audioholics.com/tower-sp...ff-comparisons

Another:https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-system-review
So how do you know Polk's data is correct? Or any other brick and mortar speaker company? From audioholics review of the Polk T15

"Sensitivity was measured at 86.4 dB for 1 meter at 2.83v which does not quite match Polk’s 89 dB, but they specified their measurement at 1 meter for 1 watt, and that could produce differing results"

So Polk is lying also and hiding the fact that they use a different non-industry standard way of measuring? Man I will never buy Polk speakers now.
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post #12 of 22 Old 07-19-2019, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mzs22 View Post
What about avr manufacturers lying about rated output, or car manufacturers lying about rated mpg, etc. Klipsch must be doing something right they have been in business a long time and I don't think there going anywhere soon.


Very intelligent argument. Go buy some.

Also, you are correct that Klipsch is doing something right. Lying about the sensitivity of their speakers undoubtedly results in a lot of sales. Integrity doesn't matter to enough people to cost them as many sales as they gain. Yep, doing something right.


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post #13 of 22 Old 07-19-2019, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
So how do you know Polk's data is correct? Or any other brick and mortar speaker company? From audioholics review of the Polk T15



"Sensitivity was measured at 86.4 dB for 1 meter at 2.83v which does not quite match Polk’s 89 dB, but they specified their measurement at 1 meter for 1 watt, and that could produce differing results"



So Polk is lying also and hiding the fact that they use a different non-industry standard way of measuring? Man I will never buy Polk speakers now.


Sounds reasonable, I probably wouldn’t either. I’ll rely on honest specs and measurements. Spend your money with companies that advertise blatantly false specs if you’d like. I’ll choose not to.

And if your honestly asking how to know if any other brick and mortar brands specs are accurate, well, I think you just figured it out for yourself in your post. Compare to some honest 3rd party independent testing. You'll either see a pattern of accuracy or deception. Pretty simple.


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post #14 of 22 Old 07-19-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Very intelligent argument. Go buy some.

Also, you are correct that Klipsch is doing something right. Lying about the sensitivity of their speakers undoubtedly results in a lot of sales. Integrity doesn't matter to enough people to cost them as many sales as they gain. Yep, doing something right.


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I did buy some.
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post #15 of 22 Old 07-20-2019, 04:36 AM
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I’ll rely on honest specs and measurements.
To each his own and all that nice stuff.... and with that said, I rely on what it sounds like and how they compare.

When I bought my first Klipsch, I was 19 years old and utterly blown away on how it sounded and compared to the others I heard.

I had ZERO clue what sensitivity meant....didn't care (today I know, still don't care!)

I listen with my ears, not my eyes.

However, for those who have a system with "perfect specs" and one that is "perfectly accurate to advertising" (or however it might care to be worded..... well.... power to them/you!!
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post #16 of 22 Old 07-20-2019, 05:26 AM
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To each his own and all that nice stuff.... and with that said, I rely on what it sounds like and how they compare.
I agree 100%. And this agrees with what I'm saying...many folks make a purchase decision based on how they compare, as you just said. My initial response about Klipsch false sensitivity rating was in direct response to someone who brought up the higher sensitivity of the Klipsch speaker as a big selling point on upgrading from the Polk.....89 dB to 95 dB. I was pointing out that this was not an accurate comparison due to false advertising...the sensitivity is probably the same or much closer to the same.


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I bought my first Klipsch, I was 19 years old and utterly blown away on how it sounded and compared to the others I heard.

I had ZERO clue what sensitivity meant....didn't care (today I know, still don't care!)

I listen with my ears, not my eyes.

However, for those who have a system with "perfect specs" and one that is "perfectly accurate to advertising" (or however it might care to be worded..... well.... power to them/you!!
Everyone listens with their ears, but using the eyes to look at the correct measurements and specs is a very accurate way to determine if the speaker will sound good. Using the eyes to compare specs such as sensitivity, extension, frequency response, spinorama data that indicates sound quality, price, size, aesthetics, narrows the field down to which speakers should be listened to in person before purchasing. It's really surprising to me how many people rush to the defense of false advertising on an important spec. Again, everyone has their own standards.
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post #17 of 22 Old 07-20-2019, 06:50 AM
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Everyone listens with their ears, but using the eyes to look at the correct measurements and specs is a very accurate way to determine if the speaker will sound good. ...... Again, everyone has their own standards.
Yep, to each his own. I rather use my ears to determine how it will sound rather than look at "correct" (or incorrect if that may be the case) measurements and specs... to try to ascertain how it will sound. If Klipsch is lying about things (something I don't agree with), then it's just as reasonable that everyone else is lying about something or another so, they're all guilty of not being accurate depending on who's measurement units we're using. (if we used the Klipsch method to measure brand "X", brand "X" might give different results, so now we can say brand "X" is misrepresenting??)

I like to be somewhat simpleton about it.... if I have a 3" full range driver (think transistor radio type), irrespective of its specs, I know it's not going to work for me.

(absurd example, I know)

Now, move to various speakers that weigh 100 pounds, all 2-3 way double digit sized woofer... maybe some horns in the mix, now we're in the ballpark.

What do the specs say? Don't know, don't care. What do my ears say?

By using my ears and not any specs, I can help adjust for any lies, misinformation or misrepresentation that might be offered by a marketing department. "ohhhhh, this speaker will obliterate every other speaker in its price/size range"

Hmmm.... if that's the case then why do these other 12 speakers I've heard seem to sound better than this one?

But the specs on this are "A,B & C".... yeah, don't care. Sounds like crap. Just because you SAY it has these specs, doesn't mean it does (as per your comments on Klipsch) however, turnabout is fair play.... and these other companies are going to be held to the same discerning ears.

I always get a bit intrigued on people's focus on the specs. Maybe they're too young to have experienced the days (of old) when you could walk into various stores and literally, here some of these things side by side. (admittedly, not in your listening room but they were at least in the SAME room for the audition)

Listening was first and specs (for those who might be technically minded) might come second.

As I reflect on those days... yeah, I can see where someone technically minded might want to go hear/listen to speaker "X" because of its specs.....but in the end, it still involved hearing them.

For those not technically minded (perhaps myself), they'd just go and pick out what they felt sounded the best to them and move on with life.

What really intrigues me are people who say "I want to buy "brand X" stereo unit....need some speakers, what speakers will sound best with this??"

Uh.... you're backwards, you should buy your speakers first and then buy the appropriate electronics to power them.
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post #18 of 22 Old 07-20-2019, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Lackey View Post
So I have Polk audio speakers now t15 bookshelf. They sound good don't get me wrong . But I'm looking into some klipsch reference premieres.. the rp160m I seen some reviews on YouTube going to do 6of them 2 as fronts 2 as sides and 2 as rears.. I'll put the front two on an amp probably the crown xls 1002 ..center speaker will be the rp 400c 4 ceiling speakers 5800 c2..I have an onkyo tx rz830..
Give a listen to them if you can.

Warning about Klipsch..... (disclaimer: I've owned their stuff since 1979) the bigger you go, the better they'll sound.

I'm not familiar with the speakers you reference. I've never heard, seen them. Just be aware that if you get some of those (the brand, not those models) you will find an itch later in life for a bigger sound to them....and you will finally find yourself contemplating some of their Heritage offerings (either new or used, depending on your pocketbook).

If you're one of those type people.... save yourself some grief and look around at those now. Yeah, they're large & clunky but they'll stomp all over your current considerations.

I heard Khorns & LaScalas back in 1978 and my jaw hit the floor (note that I didn't read any specs AND no other speaker in the high end store made my jaw hit the floor)

I went back a year later and bought a pair of LaScalas and have owned them since. (today, they are my smallest pair of Klipsch speakers)

I was 19 when I bought them so age is no excuse.
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post #19 of 22 Old 07-20-2019, 07:02 AM
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Re Klipsch's measurement techniques: the issue is that if one is comparing Klipsch sensitivity to other speakers, the method is important (if sensitivity is important to the purchaser). To see a Klipsch sensitivity figure and compare it to pretty much anyone else's, gives you the false idea that the Klipsch is way more sensitive. Which it isn't.
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post #20 of 22 Old 07-20-2019, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by coytee View Post
Yep, to each his own. I rather use my ears to determine how it will sound rather than look at "correct" (or incorrect if that may be the case) measurements and specs... to try to ascertain how it will sound.
I thought this way until recently...I didn't know their was a better way. As many or most people don't have a way to audition all the speakers they would like to consider owning, I learned there is a better way to determine which speakers are very highly likely to sound good:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...nce-shows.html

I still think the final arbiter will be hearing the speakers, but starting with accurate speakers with good sound quality(as can be determined by the right measurements) makes sense now that I have learned about and read up on the decades of research discussed in the above link.


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If Klipsch is lying about things (something I don't agree with), then it's just as reasonable that everyone else is lying about something or another so, they're all guilty of not being accurate depending on who's measurement units we're using. (if we used the Klipsch method to measure brand "X", brand "X" might give different results, so now we can say brand "X" is misrepresenting??)
The way Klipsch rates their speaker sensitivity is blatantly false and misleading....and its not just a dB or two..but usually at least 6 dB.....this is a HUGE misrepresentation that will mislead many consumers into thinking they will use 1/4th the power to drive Klipsch speakers when in fact they may not be more sensitive at all. People do use specs to compare speakers, and that is one of them. They make good speakers when taking into account the real specs, so I don't see a reason to lie. Your ok with this, and you have the right to be. We will have to agree to disagree on this point.



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What do the specs say? Don't know, don't care. What do my ears say?

By using my ears and not any specs, I can help adjust for any lies, misinformation or misrepresentation that might be offered by a marketing department. "ohhhhh, this speaker will obliterate every other speaker in its price/size range"

Hmmm.... if that's the case then why do these other 12 speakers I've heard seem to sound better than this one?

But the specs on this are "A,B & C".... yeah, don't care. Sounds like crap. Just because you SAY it has these specs, doesn't mean it does (as per your comments on Klipsch) however, turnabout is fair play.... and these other companies are going to be held to the same discerning ears.

I always get a bit intrigued on people's focus on the specs. Maybe they're too young to have experienced the days (of old) when you could walk into various stores and literally, here some of these things side by side. (admittedly, not in your listening room but they were at least in the SAME room for the audition)

Listening was first and specs (for those who might be technically minded) might come second.

As I reflect on those days... yeah, I can see where someone technically minded might want to go hear/listen to speaker "X" because of its specs.....but in the end, it still involved hearing them.

For those not technically minded (perhaps myself), they'd just go and pick out what they felt sounded the best to them and move on with life.

What really intrigues me are people who say "I want to buy "brand X" stereo unit....need some speakers, what speakers will sound best with this??"

Uh.... you're backwards, you should buy your speakers first and then buy the appropriate electronics to power them.
Again, in general response to a lot of what you are saying....the correct measurements are a more accurate indicator of how the speaker will sound than an in person demo under questionable conditions at Best Buy or something. The fallacy in selecting speakers this way is discussed in detail by Floyd Toole. I do agree with you that in the end, listening to the speakers is the final arbiter. But good measurements can narrow down the field and weed out the good from the bad. I would never waste my time going to listen to or ordering speakers that measure, and therefore sound, bad. Attempting to demo the dozens of speakers available side by side is impossible, and once failure to level match, questionable setups, the bias inherent in sighted listening tests is considered, etc.....there is a better way.

I also agree that if you are designing your system from the ground up, it makes sense to buy the speakers first and then select the correct amp or AVR to power them with.

Choose a price point, choose bookshelf or floor standers, size, aesthetics etc, then narrow things down to the speakers that have an extremely high probability of sounding good based on the correct measurements and specs, and demo these options. I'd hate to be swayed at Best Buy into getting some extremely inaccurate speakers after being swayed by the name brand, high price, and flawed comparisons and finding out they aren't very good speakers after all.

I ended up building a set of speakers, but not until I was satisfied with the measurements I saw on them, and then verifying they lived up to what was advertised. This ensured they provided what I was looking for and that I wasn't just fooled by confirmation bias. The ears are easily fooled.
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post #21 of 22 Old 07-20-2019, 05:02 PM
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I'm curious regarding accurate verses inaccurate....

How do we define accurate? Accurate to the input signal? Accurate to what an item (say violin) actually sounds like in real life?

Where I'm going is something (I'm told, since I wasn't there!!) that PWK postulated. (Paul Klipsch)

"If it moves, it distorts"

Along that logic, what moves more but the woofer?? Therefore if you can horn load a woofer, you will greatly reduce the distortion caused by it's movement hence, making it more accurate, no??

So right off the bat, we're looking at (what I think he called?) Distortion Generators or some cute thing like that. To get the distortion (accuracy??) on par with a horn loaded woofer, you need several more drivers.

We once did a quasi-shootout at their factory's listening facilities. He (Roy Delgado, their head engineer and PWK's right hand man 'at the end') had the Jubilee bass bin (two horn loaded 12" drivers) up against their four 15" direct radiator bass unit (same upper horn). It took those four 15" drivers to lower the distortion down to the area that the 2 horn loaded 12's were playing.

Most people hear this bass distortion as 'fatter' or more full bass..... they might also say Klipsch is more thin (different way of saying same thing??)

Having had dinner with Roy, He'd rather die than disrespect PWK in any form or fashion. There is genuine respect and love there. It really is amazing to witness. When you get to talk to him you can sense his integrity. When he tells you directly they don't fluff any numbers, they do it in (perhaps "this other") fashion, you are very comfortable taking him at face value.

Side comment, I'm not an engineer, so I'd not have the technical background to challenge anything he said anyway.


What many people seem to disregard is their room and how much of their room will influence the sound they hear.
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post #22 of 22 Old 07-20-2019, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post
Yep, to each his own. I rather use my ears to determine how it will sound rather than look at "correct" (or incorrect if that may be the case) measurements and specs... to try to ascertain how it will sound.
If you want a car that does 0-60 in less than 6 seconds, and you read reviews where testers have tested a particular car going 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, do you still need to go drive the car and see if it "feels like" 5.5 seconds to you? I think all that's being suggested is that using measurements to winnow the field of speakers that have the type of performance you're looking for can save you a bunch of time and cost (buying or trying speakers that have no chance of making you happy).
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