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post #61 of 87 Old 07-22-2019, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Sure, they are loud, effortless, and cheap.

But fidelity, when compared to some of the speakers mentioned in this thread, is another matter.
The question is it is a 90% as good as those speakers or is the gap bigger. I'm comparing to similar high efficiency speakers from JTR/PSA/JBL/Klipsch etc. And will you notice that in HT use?
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post #62 of 87 Old 07-23-2019, 02:29 AM
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If you want to stay under $4k, I'd look at PSA to hit a good balance between huge, effortless, clean dynamics for home theater and excellent sound quality for music.

If you can DIY(glue pre-cut boards together), the DIYSG HTM-8 or HTM-10 line would offer comparable or better performance. These designs also have amazing off axis response that offers the same frequency response no matter where you are in the room.

Both of the above designs are high sensitive meaning that they will require 1/4th or less of the amp or AVR power compared to normal hi-fi speakers. This results in lower distortion and movie theater level dynamics without sounding harsh or strained.

The above designs are controlled directivity. They somewhat limit horizontal and vertical dispersion and focus the sound towards the listening positions. You will have less sound reflected from the floor, ceiling, and walls.

The alternative would be a wide dispersion design such as Revel's M16 bookshelf speaker. These are low sensitivity hi-fi type speakers that won't play as loud or as clear without distortion or compression, but, within their clean output capabilities, might throw a wider sound as they are a wide dispersion design that embraces wall and ceiling reflections into their design. These speakers follow the scientific design approach to speakers developed over decades of research by Dr. Floyd Toole. Essentially, they emit sound over a very wide angle but are designed such that the on axis AND far off axis sound are very accurate and true to real life and match each other very closely. This results in all the reflected sound off of walls and ceilings matching the direct sound of the speaker very closely. So all the sound you hear, both direct and reflected, is essentially the same and should offer a big, wide soundstage more similar to what you would hear in real life.

IMO, these are the two main design choices you have to decide between. High sensitivity, controlled directivity such as the DIYSG HTM line or PSA speakers, or wide dispersion hi-fi but lower sensitivity designs. It's very very hard, maybe impossible, to do both.

I wanted effortless low distortion crystal clear movie dynamics at any volume with accurate response and consistent sound anywhere in the room so I built a pair of DIYSG HTM-8's and have achieved those goals. I would like to compare in room with something like the Revel M16's but have not yet done so in person.
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post #63 of 87 Old 07-23-2019, 08:08 AM
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How does human hearing calculate "big"?

Sure, louder things tend to be bigger but how does the human ear know that the stampede of elephants a mile away is "big"? It might not be loud but your ancestors started runnng, climbed the biggest tree they could find or hid in a cave to prevent being flattened. From what I gather, it has to do with the quanity of reflections as one elephant wold have a few reflecions but a hundred of them would have far higher amounts. Run, Forest, run! The brain calculates what "big" is specifically to prevent us from being a foot supply, getting crushed by elephants or landslides as "big" generally means "bad". Low frequencies have the same effect, very low frequencies are never a good thing in nature--we equate low frequencies with very large and pote3ntially dangerous things. (you weak and puny human!)

Wide dispersion speakers tend to sound "bigger" than narrow dispersion speakers because of more reflections--look at bipole speakers, they reflect off the back walls of the room and mix it with the direct sound creating a larger effect for this reason. The Bose 001 when firing into a corner had the same effect--it has a large soundstage. You give up accuracy and clarity when you do that but for some people, they will give up accuracy for a large soundstage.

Other things that sound "big" are just large speakers--a PA stack of speakers will sound big because it is big! Blame your brain for that one, it is tuned to figure out if something is big and will it use us for lunch. Those massive front loaded horn bass bins and subwoofers sound HUGE because they couple for effectively to the air by using a low pressure "mouth" or horn exit which will get larger slugs of air moving more efficiently. I've heard those things called "air transformers" as they sure give that effect. Now couple four of them together, they will act as one and sound really, really big--such as rock concerts.

Around six years ago, I was able to purchase crates of speaker drivers and built a pair of 3-way line arrays. 48 tweeters, 20 three inch mids and 12 five inch woofers in each box (with subs to match) Each line is 6 feet tall and my MLP is at 11 feet. They sound huge--almost cartoonish when listening to a solo flute player player her---6 foot tall flute! They have less than 10 degrees vertical dispersion and sit on 2 foot tall subs in my garage--no floor/ceiling reflection at my MLP. Step back 20 feet and you start to get reflections and the sound does change as the line starts to revert to point source and other such things. The horizontal dispersion is over 120 degrees because 3 inch midranges tend to be wide dispersion. I toe them in and position them to prevent side wall reflections and do "time-intesity trading" to keep the soundstage wide across several seats but prevent too much reflections from the side walls. It's a garage, not a studio so I play the cards I'm dealt. Those arrays sound big, they sound the same if I'm sitting down or standing up as the line is positioned to be on axis at heighs of 2 to 8 feet. They sound huge when in the garage but once I leave the garage in open space, they start to sound smaller--100 meters away they sound like a point source with decent treble respons.

Some people that build those types of arrays custom build them so they stretch from floor to ceiling to get maximum reflectivity and a larger than life sound. I'm sure you can build thm that way on an infinite baffle or open back to create a dipole to get rear wall reflections thrown in to really go nuts (and people have) I've had fun building, rebuilding, tuning and measuring my line arrays and for garage use--they work very well! They always throw big sound because that would be a side effect of over 160 speaker drivers firing per pair--the brain hears all that and it triggers the big criteria.

Back in the day, I had a pair of 5" two-way bookshelfs and a sub, it sounded and measured well but did not sound big or had high SPL abilities. For rockstar mode, I purchased a pair of 3-way 15" woofer PA speakers with horn loaded midrange and horn loaded tweeters. They sound much larger than my bookshelfs even at the same volume. A 5 inch driver could not compete with a 15 inch driver in bass as the poor 5 incher could not compete with a 15" wide X 12" tall horn for the mid. My preference was for the bookshelf/sub system for most use because of the accuracy and I didn't need high/massive SPLs most of the time. I did notice the "scale" of the music was different, very interesting effect.

If you want to play around with that, just turn your speakers backwards and fire them into a corner--it won't sound good but it sure does sound different. If you want to play with large, high efficiency speakers you can rent them from pro sound rental places and have a good time for a weekend. (during the week rates are much cheaper FYI) Those JBL "sticks" that are line arrays would be fun to play around with, rent 4 to 6 of them to reach floor to ceiling or close to it. All sorts of cool speaker technology available for rent from pro sound places, sometimes it is better to rent the cow.

I'd throw out that SPL has a large factor in our perception of "bigness". Large, high efficiency speakers have very high, low distortion SPL capability so it would sound more naturally big. The other thing is what your eyes tell you, if you see a line array sitting in a room it is a big speaker (ask my wife, she'll tell ya!) The eyes tell the brain to prepare for some big sound just as your eyes tell the brain where the sound will be coming from when watching movies in surround. You can throw that in the mix if you like.

My line arrays do sound larger than my HT speakers in my living room when operating in 2 channel mode. The sense of bigness really expands when using multi-channel surround though--kind of the point of all those additional speakers and processing.

BE careful with "big sound" sometimes it sounds bizarre when listening to something that is very small and you hear it as larger than life big--sometimes too much of a good thing turns into a bad thing. Be careful out there!
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post #64 of 87 Old 07-23-2019, 08:54 AM
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I'm not sure what "big sound" means exactly but I feel like the bipolar design of DefTech's BP9000 series speakers gives a nice large sound stage that envelops the room. The BP9000s also have pretty good sensitivity and powered woofers to give some extra punch on the low end (although a dedicated sub is still recommended). Overall I've been very happy with my BP9040s, but not everyone is a fan of bipolar speakers so you should try to audition them if you can. It would be easy to check out some DT's if you have a Best Buy Magnolia near you.

The reviews tend to agree about their "big sound" fwiw:

In the audioholics review of the 9000 series system they say "Definitive's bipolar design has the distinct advantage of creating a huge, deep sound stage that most direct radiating, traditional speaker designs just can't match."

The Sound and Vision review of the 9080x says "The BP9080x towers are big speakers, and they sound like it. In fact, they sound huge: way huge. On top-shelf stereo music recordings, the soundstage is crazily deep but still impressively focused."

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| LG OLED65C8P | Pioneer VSX-LX503 | Def Tech BP9040 + CS9040 + A90 + SR9080 | Klipsch R-112SW |

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post #65 of 87 Old 07-23-2019, 10:45 AM
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If you want to try dipolar speakers, I'd recommend Ohm Walsh 2000's. The tweeter is still direct radiating (with a twist) so you can get great imaging and still have big sound.
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post #66 of 87 Old 07-23-2019, 10:54 AM
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If it is a dedicated room or you have no spouse objections, then JBL Pro Cinema speakers will wipe the floor with most of the suggestions here for a fraction of the cost. If you want that BIG cinema sound, go with BIG cinema speakers like the JBL 4722. Yes, they are big, ugly, and have zero WAF appeal, but they are 104db sensitive with dual 15" drivers with a street price of around $1200 delivered. You can also upgrade the compression drivers to make them very musical for around $300 per CD. Most cant or wont accommodate their size and ugly looks, but don't let the dump truck aesthetics fool you. These speakers have a very refined sound with the upgraded compression drivers and will throw a wall of sound with dynamics that few speakers can match. They have zero competition in their price range.
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post #67 of 87 Old 07-23-2019, 11:03 AM
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Speakers are complex devices whose performance can vary wildly depending on design details, such as the crossover. @SteveCallas experience with the Titan's, while not to be discounted, is atypical of what is normally reported in terms of scale for the Titans. There is a reason why wave-guided tweeters are so popular in high powered HT applications.

Edit: Complex in the way they behave.

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post #68 of 87 Old 02-17-2020, 08:20 PM
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Good thread but OP didn't post what he ended up getting? As @Molon_Labe mentioned about 4722N speakers, I have 3 of them as L/C/R. I also have a dedicated room with good room treatment (I did it to my taste). These speakers can easily fill a room. I can easily fool anyone listening in my room that many speakers are playing while I only have L/R playing. I do have good amount of diffusers/abosbers to produce very good sound in the room but these speakers are no joke.

For Sale (2 Mini Marty with UXL Drivers)" https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-a...arty-2-nj.html
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post #69 of 87 Old 02-18-2020, 03:47 AM
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Late night listening with the previous version of these used to make my walls disappear.

https://www.newformresearch.com/inde...-models/r645v3
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post #70 of 87 Old 02-18-2020, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Good thread but OP didn't post what he ended up getting? As @Molon_Labe mentioned about 4722N speakers, I have 3 of them as L/C/R. I also have a dedicated room with good room treatment (I did it to my taste). These speakers can easily fill a room. I can easily fool anyone listening in my room that many speakers are playing while I only have L/R playing. I do have good amount of diffusers/abosbers to produce very good sound in the room but these speakers are no joke.
They are awesome speakers. I had a chuckle when you said they can easily fill the room, because they do physically too! Another speaker that sound just about as big as the JBL 4675LF were the Yorkville Unity 215.

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post #71 of 87 Old 02-18-2020, 07:24 AM
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Revel concerta2 M16(bookshelf) I demo'd sounded "bigger" soundstage(width/depth) wise than towers next to it which included: Klipsch RP5000F, RP6000F, RP8000F, Monitor Audio Silver 100, 200.

this was in a massive 100ft wide showroom .
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Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C, Q50a / Fluance Signature Series/ DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-IIReceiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300 Next Speakers: Revel Concerta2 M16, Dynaudio Emit M20, Buchardt S400, Triangle Comet ez, KEF R3
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post #72 of 87 Old 02-18-2020, 08:36 AM
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They are awesome speakers. I had a chuckle when you said they can easily fill the room, because they do physically too! Another speaker that sound just about as big as the JBL 4675LF were the Yorkville Unity 215.
They sure do. My 12' wide room is not wide enough. I put three of them and 2 Mini Marty and then I struggle having 1" b/w all of them. They are like almost rubbing each other . A 16' wide room would be awesome for these speakers because it will provide enough room to separate them from each other and also from side walls. Don't think its a major issue when L/R very close to side walls as long as their 1st reflection is handled.

I went through a major change in my room acoustic treatment from absorbing all of the sound (black velvet all around) to now reflection 1st reflection and diffusing 2nd reflection. Since 4722N has a very good off-axes response as well, no need to absorb it. After making that change, the music just shines in my room. Love these speakers. Very important to know to properly treat the room goes a long way. Watching movie demos generally have great dynamics and these speakers + good bass can get you BADDDD. Finally, the clarity of dialog is absolutely spot on. Feels like the person is right in front of me.
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post #73 of 87 Old 02-18-2020, 08:42 AM
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They sure do. My 12' wide room is not wide enough. I put three of them and 2 Mini Marty and then I struggle having 1" b/w all of them. They are like almost rubbing each other . A 16' wide room would be awesome for these speakers because it will provide enough room to separate them from each other and also from side walls. Don't think its a major issue when L/R very close to side walls as long as their 1st reflection is handled.

I went through a major change in my room acoustic treatment from absorbing all of the sound (black velvet all around) to now reflection 1st reflection and diffusing 2nd reflection. Since 4722N has a very good off-axes response as well, no need to absorb it. After making that change, the music just shines in my room. Love these speakers. Very important to know to properly treat the room goes a long way. Watching movie demos generally have great dynamics and these speakers + good bass can get you BADDDD. Finally, the clarity of dialog is absolutely spot on. Feels like the person is right in front of me.
Probably still the best value in HT! If JBL made a smaller version it would get much more traction around here. My JBL speakers were some of the best in my room. I never owned the 4722, but I did have the top portion on the 3731. I did like my DIY JBL better than my 4675C, but it was still big.

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post #74 of 87 Old 03-06-2020, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
If it is a dedicated room or you have no spouse objections, then JBL Pro Cinema speakers will wipe the floor with most of the suggestions here for a fraction of the cost. If you want that BIG cinema sound, go with BIG cinema speakers like the JBL 4722. Yes, they are big, ugly, and have zero WAF appeal, but they are 104db sensitive with dual 15" drivers with a street price of around $1200 delivered. You can also upgrade the compression drivers to make them very musical for around $300 per CD. Most cant or wont accommodate their size and ugly looks, but don't let the dump truck aesthetics fool you. These speakers have a very refined sound with the upgraded compression drivers and will throw a wall of sound with dynamics that few speakers can match. They have zero competition in their price range.
I currently have QSC-1150 LCR speakers. Around September I'm moving to a new home with basement dedicated home theater (15x19x12). I'm wondering if upgrading to QSC-2150 or 4722's is worth it. It's frustrating here in Europe it's almost impossible to listen to them anywhere. I have 2 ported DS115 21" subs and plan to add 2 devastators. But for LCR it's very difficult to decide.
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post #75 of 87 Old 03-06-2020, 11:20 AM
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"BIG" sounding speakers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan3 View Post
I currently have QSC-1150 LCR speakers. Around September I'm moving to a new home with basement dedicated home theater (15x19x12). I'm wondering if upgrading to QSC-2150 or 4722's is worth it. It's frustrating here in Europe it's almost impossible to listen to them anywhere. I have 2 ported DS115 21" subs and plan to add 2 devastators. But for LCR it's very difficult to decide.
What are
devastators? Any pics of your set up and subwoofers ?
I didn’t know pro audio was so good for home theater do you use a large room ?

What speakers did the op show with a lot of drivers in the thread ? Pic

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post #76 of 87 Old 03-06-2020, 12:19 PM
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Here is the DIY Devastator thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...tor-index.html
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post #77 of 87 Old 03-07-2020, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kblackburn101 View Post
What are
devastators? Any pics of your set up and subwoofers ?
I didn’t know pro audio was so good for home theater do you use a large room ?

What speakers did the op show with a lot of drivers in the thread ? Pic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I see in the post below there's a link to the devastator subs.
I just moved out of my place and my new house is being built and not ready before August, so all subs and speakers are in storage. Life is hard without good sound I don't have pictures at hand.
The room will be "only" 15x18x12, I wished it was longer, but the construction company made a mistake and I have columns in the basement that were not foreseen.
About pro speakers: yes, nothing beats them for home theater.
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post #78 of 87 Old 04-04-2020, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Good thread but OP didn't post what he ended up getting? As @Molon_Labe mentioned about 4722N speakers, I have 3 of them as L/C/R. I also have a dedicated room with good room treatment (I did it to my taste). These speakers can easily fill a room. I can easily fool anyone listening in my room that many speakers are playing while I only have L/R playing. I do have good amount of diffusers/abosbers to produce very good sound in the room but these speakers are no joke.

I actually haven't bought speakers yet lol. I *think* I narrowed it down to Revel S16 (shallow speaker better to hide behind AT screen) or JBL 705p. The HTM-8 are no longer listed in DIY Soundgroup website I would like to hear them out once this COVID thing is over if I can find a place that carries both but I doubt that. Only thing that worries me is the dynamics of the Revel, since I'm 100% movie use, not sure if the compression driver of the JBL would be a better fit.
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post #79 of 87 Old 04-05-2020, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
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I actually haven't bought speakers yet lol. I *think* I narrowed it down to Revel S16 (shallow speaker better to hide behind AT screen) or JBL 705p. The HTM-8 are no longer listed in DIY Soundgroup website I would like to hear them out once this COVID thing is over if I can find a place that carries both but I doubt that. Only thing that worries me is the dynamics of the Revel, since I'm 100% movie use, not sure if the compression driver of the JBL would be a better fit.
I think the Revel and JBL options above will be a couple of good ones to consider. I chimed in earlier in the thread regarding the merits of high sensitivity horn designs vs lower sensitivity wide dispersion designs. At the time, I had highly regarded horn loaded high sensitivity speakers with very good objective measured performance.

Since then, I have switched to lower sensitivity, wide dispersion speakers. For me personally, this was the right choice, but for a couple of reasons. First of all, I don't listen close to reference level. If I did, I would have leaned towards a solution like the 705P or JBL's new HDI lineup for the higher SPL capability. But for *max* of -10 to -15 MV for movies, I don't need high sensitivity although I did ensure that I kept sensitivity fairly high at 91 dB to retain good movie dynamics and have less need for external amps.

Having had both types in my room now, I can say that the wide dispersion dome speakers definitely have a bigger, fuller sound that really fills the room differently than horn speakers. They "disappear" sonically into the room better, rather than focused sound coming right from the speakers. I did A/B level matched testing with wife and daughter making sure they did not know which speakers were playing. They both chose the wide dispersion speakers on every track I played for them. Exact comments were bigger, fuller sound, and it was not about bass. I specifically asked to make sure. Both speakers were crossed at 80 Hz without subs to match extension.

The JBL 705 and HDI do have a wider coverage pattern than many horn speakers, so I think they strike somewhat of a balance, being wider dispersion than many horns, but not as wide as domes.

Since you are behind an AT screen, I wouldn't rule out in wall speakers if you have a good wall to mount them in i.e. not adjacent to a sleeping babies room or something. There are pros and cons to in walls. Pros: no SBIR so optimal for sound quality vs box speakers on the wall or in the room. Any space between the wall and speaker baffle = cancellations. Huge wall cavity for lower extension and greater efficiency. Perfect LCR configuration with matching vertical LCR at the optimal height. Cons: installation more difficult, not easy to remove if you move....wall cavity might not be optimal enclosure as far as bracing, being sonically inert etc.

Revel makes some fantastic in walls such as their W893 that I would look at for LCR, and you can drop down their lineup to whatever meets your budget for surrounds. I'm using their cheapest in walls for surrounds and I'm very pleased with them for this purpose. They don't measure well enough for me to have considered them for my LCR, but for surrounds I get a suggested crossover of 40-60 Hz due to the large wall cavity, and you don't get any aesthetically less obtrusive than in wall.
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post #80 of 87 Old 04-05-2020, 07:36 AM
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The PSA 110 all around were one of the other alternatives. Haven't heard of Tekton, thanks I'll check them out.






Right now I have an Onkyo TXNR787 and a Rythmik F12 sub. I'm pretty happy with the sub, what I'm unhappy with is the Elite center, and maybe also the receiver? When I get into the -20 in the receiver the sound starts getting very localized in the center speaker and like something is running out of gas. Maybe it's the receiver? I'm looking to upgrade to a NAD T758 v3 when I have a chance.
Thank you for the inputs
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The PSA 110 all around were one of the other alternatives. Haven't heard of Tekton, thanks I'll check them out.






Right now I have an Onkyo TXNR787 and a Rythmik F12 sub. I'm pretty happy with the sub, what I'm unhappy with is the Elite center, and maybe also the receiver? When I get into the -20 in the receiver the sound starts getting very localized in the center speaker and like something is running out of gas. Maybe it's the receiver? I'm looking to upgrade to a NAD T758 v3 when I have a chance.
Thank you for the inputs
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post #82 of 87 Old 04-05-2020, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I think the Revel and JBL options above will be a couple of good ones to consider. I chimed in earlier in the thread regarding the merits of high sensitivity horn designs vs lower sensitivity wide dispersion designs. At the time, I had highly regarded horn loaded high sensitivity speakers with very good objective measured performance.

Since then, I have switched to lower sensitivity, wide dispersion speakers. For me personally, this was the right choice, but for a couple of reasons. First of all, I don't listen close to reference level. If I did, I would have leaned towards a solution like the 705P or JBL's new HDI lineup for the higher SPL capability. But for *max* of -10 to -15 MV for movies, I don't need high sensitivity although I did ensure that I kept sensitivity fairly high at 91 dB to retain good movie dynamics and have less need for external amps.

Having had both types in my room now, I can say that the wide dispersion dome speakers definitely have a bigger, fuller sound that really fills the room differently than horn speakers. They "disappear" sonically into the room better, rather than focused sound coming right from the speakers. I did A/B level matched testing with wife and daughter making sure they did not know which speakers were playing. They both chose the wide dispersion speakers on every track I played for them. Exact comments were bigger, fuller sound, and it was not about bass. I specifically asked to make sure. Both speakers were crossed at 80 Hz without subs to match extension.

The JBL 705 and HDI do have a wider coverage pattern than many horn speakers, so I think they strike somewhat of a balance, being wider dispersion than many horns, but not as wide as domes.

Since you are behind an AT screen, I wouldn't rule out in wall speakers if you have a good wall to mount them in i.e. not adjacent to a sleeping babies room or something. There are pros and cons to in walls. Pros: no SBIR so optimal for sound quality vs box speakers on the wall or in the room. Any space between the wall and speaker baffle = cancellations. Huge wall cavity for lower extension and greater efficiency. Perfect LCR configuration with matching vertical LCR at the optimal height. Cons: installation more difficult, not easy to remove if you move....wall cavity might not be optimal enclosure as far as bracing, being sonically inert etc.

Revel makes some fantastic in walls such as their W893 that I would look at for LCR, and you can drop down their lineup to whatever meets your budget for surrounds. I'm using their cheapest in walls for surrounds and I'm very pleased with them for this purpose. They don't measure well enough for me to have considered them for my LCR, but for surrounds I get a suggested crossover of 40-60 Hz due to the large wall cavity, and you don't get any aesthetically less obtrusive than in wall.

Thank you for the input! I think you may just have convinced me to go with Revel. I watch movies at a similar level (-20 to -15). I was considering in-walls but the Revel S16 seems like a good compromise it being only 5.5" deep.
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post #83 of 87 Old 04-05-2020, 08:28 AM
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Just be sure to be aware of the compromise of a small box(less capability, less extension, less bass). They do advertise -3dB of 70 Hz so not bad. Be sure you have good subs to cross to.
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post #84 of 87 Old 04-05-2020, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Having had both types in my room now, I can say that the wide dispersion dome speakers definitely have a bigger, fuller sound that really fills the room differently than horn speakers. They "disappear" sonically into the room better, rather than focused sound coming right from the speakers. I did A/B level matched testing with wife and daughter making sure they did not know which speakers were playing. They both chose the wide dispersion speakers on every track I played for them. Exact comments were bigger, fuller sound, and it was not about bass. I specifically asked to make sure. Both speakers were crossed at 80 Hz without subs to match extension.
Wouldn't it also depend on what room acoustics you have? If you are absorbing 1st reflection of your speakers assuming it has good off-axes response, you are taking away the fullness it can provide in the room. I personally have gone through this experience myself. I have 3 JBL 4722N speakers. I had all my side/ceiling/floor covered with Black Velvet to provide a pitch dark environment for projector but eventually realized that I was sucking all the high frequencies. After doing a lot of reading and research, I now have a combination of Absorbers/diffusers (12" blocks) and I almost all of the velvet out. The sound stage opened up so much. Even the 1st reflection point, I am absorbing lower frequencies and reflecting higher. Doing so made the sound stage super Wide. I can sit at MLP or walk around to its left or right and its pretty much the same sound stage. 4722N is a Horn loaded speaker and provides a HUGE sound stage. We can keep on switching the speakers but keep in mind that they are played in a room and room becomes the medium so I'd rather make sure that the speakers have good off-axes response and that the room is not too absorptive. Don't absorb 1st reflection. Diffuse it instead. Don't even absorb 2nd reflection. Absorb/Diffuse it and see how the sound stage opens up. I get oh wowww moments watching movies now in my 12x22x8 room.
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post #85 of 87 Old 04-05-2020, 08:47 AM
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... The HTM-8 are no longer listed in DIY Soundgroup website ...
The HTM-8 was discontinued because the newer HT-8 produces virtually indistinguishable performance at a lower price.
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post #86 of 87 Old 04-05-2020, 10:10 AM
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Wouldn't it also depend on what room acoustics you have? If you are absorbing 1st reflection of your speakers assuming it has good off-axes response, you are taking away the fullness it can provide in the room. I personally have gone through this experience myself. I have 3 JBL 4722N speakers. I had all my side/ceiling/floor covered with Black Velvet to provide a pitch dark environment for projector but eventually realized that I was sucking all the high frequencies. After doing a lot of reading and research, I now have a combination of Absorbers/diffusers (12" blocks) and I almost all of the velvet out. The sound stage opened up so much. Even the 1st reflection point, I am absorbing lower frequencies and reflecting higher. Doing so made the sound stage super Wide. I can sit at MLP or walk around to its left or right and its pretty much the same sound stage. 4722N is a Horn loaded speaker and provides a HUGE sound stage. We can keep on switching the speakers but keep in mind that they are played in a room and room becomes the medium so I'd rather make sure that the speakers have good off-axes response and that the room is not too absorptive. Don't absorb 1st reflection. Diffuse it instead. Don't even absorb 2nd reflection. Absorb/Diffuse it and see how the sound stage opens up. I get oh wowww moments watching movies now in my 12x22x8 room.
I think I largely agree with you here, especially for well designed speakers, meaning those with accurate, neutral off axis response that closely matches on axis response for a cohesive sound.

However, I also won't completely discount the possibility that some room treatment might be beneficial in some multi channel home theaters. Some have the opinion that with lots of channels, treating reflections helps keep precise sound placement.

In your case, I can see where not treating reflections would be beneficial. You are already getting controlled directivity from the horn which limits far off axis reflections. Further reducing these reflections with treatment is overkill. Also, if I remember correctly, the off axis response of those speakers is very good, so as you noticed, allowing some reflections can improve sound quality.

For me personally, I find wide dispersion speakers without any dedicated room treatments works really well for a big wide, spacious sound in my room. I do have a large cloth sectional that probably helps the acoustics of the room.

I have hardwood floors and tried laying a thick blanket on the floor between the speaker and MLP and found virtually no difference in measured response, as I was considering an area rug if there was an improvement. I also have a large, square vinyl ottoman and didn't notice a response difference when moving it. This was with my left speaker, I want to do some sweeps with my center channel with the ottoman and with the ottoman covered with a thick blanket to see if it changes anything.

Last edited by bear123; 04-05-2020 at 10:13 AM.
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post #87 of 87 Old 04-05-2020, 02:46 PM
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Before making a choice, order a pair of both the Revel and JBL speakers and compare them in YOUR room in YOUR house with YOUR electronics. All the hand-wringing, chart-reading, and opinion-gathering in the world won't help you until you hear the speakers.
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