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post #1 of 36 Old 07-19-2019, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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"BIG" sounding speakers?

Hi

Currently I have a Pioneer Elite SP speaker system, and I notice they start sounding small when pushing beyond -25 on the receiver. I'm looking for "BIG" sounding speakers, if that's a term.

I''m looking at the Klipsch THX Ultras, M&K S150 (first version, used) or perhaps go DIY with HTM 10, or maybe the 12.

Would the HTM with a single 10" woofer sound "bigger" than a Klipsch with dual 5.25" or 6.5"?
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post #2 of 36 Old 07-19-2019, 08:48 PM
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What you're describing is probably the somewhat "dark" sound signature that some people hear in Pioneer speakers.

I'd recommend looking a close look at these, half off regular price and I think you even get free return shipping in case they don't do it for you. If you can order a 3rd one as a vertical center that would be ideal.
https://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/STUDIO+590.html
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post #3 of 36 Old 07-19-2019, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slip023 View Post
DIY with HTM 10, or maybe the 12.
If you have the means to go DIY then this is the ticket. Great reviews in the DIY threads. Can't go wrong with the kits at DIYsoundgroup. Best bang for you $$
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post #4 of 36 Old 07-19-2019, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slip023 View Post
Hi

Currently I have a Pioneer Elite SP speaker system, and I notice they start sounding small when pushing beyond -25 on the receiver. I'm looking for "BIG" sounding speakers, if that's a term.

I''m looking at the Klipsch THX Ultras, M&K S150 (first version, used) or perhaps go DIY with HTM 10, or maybe the 12.

Would the HTM with a single 10" woofer sound "bigger" than a Klipsch with dual 5.25" or 6.5"?
Prob these JTR , PSA, Tekton

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post #5 of 36 Old 07-19-2019, 10:10 PM
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"BIG" sound MUST start with a 12-in or larger Sub-Woofer.
Sure, you can buy speakers with larger than 3x5.25-in Woofers, but only a Sub-Woofer is going to punch out LOTS of LOW DISTORTION power on the Lowest Freqs....giving you that "BIG" sound.

If you are trying to get "BIG" sound from a simple Stereo System, you might want to consider upgrading to a 3.1 Channel Amp...or Surround AVR...plus a Sub-Woofer....which would use "Bass Management" to re-direct Low Freqs to Sub-Woofer, rather than TYING to reproduce them via L/R Speakers that are NOT able to without high distortion.

OTOH: If you let us know which equipments you are using, we might have some other alternatives.

BTW: Room Equalization, such as in an AVR or stand-alone 1/3-Octave Band Equalizer, is also needed in order to reproduce ALL of the Sub-Woofer Freqs at the SAME Levels, so you can hear ALL of them, rather than primarily the Room Mode Resonance Freqs:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post54537820
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post #6 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
Prob these JTR , PSA, Tekton
I agree, if OP wants BIG sound he would definitely get that from Power sound audio , JTR or Tekton. OP would also need a Subwoofer from Power sound audio, JTR or FUNK.

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post #7 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
Prob these JTR , PSA, Tekton

The PSA 110 all around were one of the other alternatives. Haven't heard of Tekton, thanks I'll check them out.



Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
"BIG" sound MUST start with a 12-in or larger Sub-Woofer.
Sure, you can buy speakers with larger than 3x5.25-in Woofers, but only a Sub-Woofer is going to punch out LOTS of LOW DISTORTION power on the Lowest Freqs....giving you that "BIG" sound.

If you are trying to get "BIG" sound from a simple Stereo System, you might want to consider upgrading to a 3.1 Channel Amp...or Surround AVR...plus a Sub-Woofer....which would use "Bass Management" to re-direct Low Freqs to Sub-Woofer, rather than TYING to reproduce them via L/R Speakers that are NOT able to without high distortion.

OTOH: If you let us know which equipments you are using, we might have some other alternatives.

BTW: Room Equalization, such as in an AVR or stand-alone 1/3-Octave Band Equalizer, is also needed in order to reproduce ALL of the Sub-Woofer Freqs at the SAME Levels, so you can hear ALL of them, rather than primarily the Room Mode Resonance Freqs:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post54537820

Right now I have an Onkyo TXNR787 and a Rythmik F12 sub. I'm pretty happy with the sub, what I'm unhappy with is the Elite center, and maybe also the receiver? When I get into the -20 in the receiver the sound starts getting very localized in the center speaker and like something is running out of gas. Maybe it's the receiver? I'm looking to upgrade to a NAD T758 v3 when I have a chance.
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post #8 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 10:36 AM
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I wonder if it merits first asking the OP if they're interested in "loud" sound or "big" sound.

They don't have to be dependent on each other.

My horns will go as loud as near any speaker someone on this forum has.... HOWEVER, they will also play as QUIET as ANY speaker on this form so it's not about volume.

What they DO have is huge scale to their sound, even at nice listening levels.
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post #9 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post
I wonder if it merits first asking the OP if they're interested in "loud" sound or "big" sound.

They don't have to be dependent on each other.

My horns will go as loud as near any speaker someone on this forum has.... HOWEVER, they will also play as QUIET as ANY speaker on this form so it's not about volume.

What they DO have is huge scale to their sound, even at nice listening levels.
Definitely huge scale sound. I don't listen at reference, too loud for me. I listen between -10 to -20 ref. What speakers do you have?

Last edited by slip023; 07-20-2019 at 02:29 PM.
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post #10 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
What you're describing is probably the somewhat "dark" sound signature that some people hear in Pioneer speakers.

He has the Pioneer Elite speakers, not the BS22's, which are muffled and dark sounding. The Elite SP speakers are much higher end. CNET said "The Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 produces startling clarity, precision surround-sound imaging, high-contrast dynamics, and solid low bass extension." Digital Trends said they sound "accurate, open and natural."



I think he wants towers with 8" or 10" drivers.
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post #11 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 01:40 PM
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Here are a couple of threads that mention the HTM's and how good they sound to some. DIY is going to give you what you want and really not that hard to do with some basic skills. Fun to build too! there is that certain I built that and sounds awesome satisfaction

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post58307278
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post57899582
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post #12 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slip023 View Post
Definately huge scale sound. I don't listen at reference, too loud for me. I listen between -10 to -20 ref. What speakers do you have?
Jubilee's in front (Klipsch) and LaScalas in the rear.

Dynamics and scale of sound out the wazoo (usually don't even listen with rears playing)

Totally 'effortless' sound....want more, turn it up....more? turn it up more.... stupid more? get stupid with volume.

They'll just keep giving and it will be loud, CLEAN, dynamic and huge.

Wanna hear Tocotta & Fugue in D minor on the scale of life??

McIntosh MC-2102 on the floor for scale. When you hear a speaker that is so low in distortion (2-way, horn woofer & tweeter) you might end up turning it up louder (in an absolute sense) because you will be missing some of the distortion cue's that you are perhaps getting today...

Disregard the "scary-baby"....
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post #13 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 01:51 PM
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(they might not be in your budget now that I read a bit closer...)

My apologies if I threw mud out for nothing.
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post #14 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coytee View Post
(they might not be in your budget now that I read a bit closer...)

My apologies if I threw mud out for nothing.

Nah not at all. Thanks for sharing! but true they are out of budget and out of size lol
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post #15 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 02:50 PM
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Well....you want scale, you are going to have to have an element of size.

Remember the old phrase in automobiles, "there's no replacement for displacement"??

You're going to need a certain amount of "horsepower" to simply move/control the air in the room if that is really what you want to do.
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post #16 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 08:33 PM
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My understanding is that "big" sound comes mostly from two things: wide dispersion and powerful, extended bass. It's also aided by brighter sounding speakers, but it's not a requirement.

Let properly placed subwoofers handle the bass and focus on finding speakers that have good midbass, and effortless mids and highs. Waveguides often help to blend the drivers together.
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post #17 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 09:18 PM
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I compared diysg Titan 15s and Boston Acoustics VR3s with big sound (soundstage width and height) being one of my main criteria, and the Bostons won quite handily in that department. I read all the praise about the horns/waveguides, but in my comparison, it seems to have resulted in a very narrow soundfield.

So to your question,I would say a dome tweeter is a must if you want big dispersion on the top end. Waveguides or ribbons should probably be avoided. I also think multiple drivers for midrange and bass will be preferred for this task vs one big midwoofer. So honestly, i dont think the HTM-12 or something like it is the way to go for BIG sound. I think something more along the design tradition of a Paradigm Studio 100 is.
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post #18 of 36 Old 07-20-2019, 10:10 PM
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Waveguides or ribbons should probably be avoided.
Ribbons have the widest dispersion creating lots of reflected sound, but there is controversy over whether the narrow vertical dispersion is good or bad.

Waveguides come in many shapes and sizes and don't have to hinder "big sound"...

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Otherwise I agree on strong midbass performance and the tendency to prefer domes for a more even dispersion pattern, though many like ribbons.
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post #19 of 36 Old Yesterday, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
I compared diysg Titan 15s and Boston Acoustics VR3s with big sound (soundstage width and height) being one of my main criteria, and the Bostons won quite handily in that department. I read all the praise about the horns/waveguides, but in my comparison, it seems to have resulted in a very narrow soundfield.

So to your question,I would say a dome tweeter is a must if you want big dispersion on the top end. Waveguides or ribbons should probably be avoided. I also think multiple drivers for midrange and bass will be preferred for this task vs one big midwoofer. So honestly, i dont think the HTM-12 or something like it is the way to go for BIG sound. I think something more along the design tradition of a Paradigm Studio 100 is.

Thanks for your input! It then seems like towers would be the way to go. Do they tend to sound bigger even if they have the same drivers as their bookshelf counter-part?
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I just wanted to add that larger drivers and cabinets do not always mean "bigger" sound. I've seen smaller bookshelf speakers sound larger than large/floorstanding speakers with larger drivers.
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post #21 of 36 Old Yesterday, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slip023 View Post
Thanks for your input! It then seems like towers would be the way to go. Do they tend to sound bigger even if they have the same drivers as their bookshelf counter-part?
Yes, because of bass output. But subs do that as well, and they do it better. You can achieve world-class bass for thousands less than it costs in tower upgrades, plus you can ideally place them for bass in a room - which you can not do with towers.

The one exception is that, as Steve noted, towers tend to excel at midbass as well, though there are exceptional stand-mounted speakers in that regard if you look around.
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Once you get near and below 80hz, bass is omni-directional, so the sheer number or size of drivers reproducing frequencies below that for the sake of BIG sound is not so important. But above 80hz, more drivers spaced over a larger baffle would help with BIG sound.

I agree a bookshelf can have amazing soundstage size and imaging, but it will usually tend to be weak in the midbass or upper bass range, and that contributes to feeling of size as well.

In my experience, drivers placed above a dome tweeter can cause comb filtering and reduce vertical soundstage size, so again, just from one guy's point of view, a design along the lines of this (not brand specific, just the design philosophy) should do well to provide BIG sound.






I have yet to hear a line array with multiple tweeters and midwoofers, but I would imagine it would yield BIG sound as well.

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Thank you all for the help! I've added the Chane A5.4 towers to my short list. The reviews I've read are really good, beating much more expensive towers.
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That's a good choice. I have their smallest offering in a smallish room. The drivers are very robust and are able to be stretched a bit when required.

Just keep in mind that won't obviate the need for good, well-integrated subwoofers to get a "big sound."
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Mr. Slip,

The Klipsch THX are formidable.

What is your budget.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
I compared diysg Titan 15s and Boston Acoustics VR3s with big sound (soundstage width and height) being one of my main criteria, and the Bostons won quite handily in that department. I read all the praise about the horns/waveguides, but in my comparison, it seems to have resulted in a very narrow soundfield.
I've not heard the Boston's (I had Boston THX towers back in the late 90s when I lived in the UK, don't recall the exact model number. VRS I think) but it could also be room dependent. I have Titans, and the sound stage is incredible here. It is uncanny how huge it is, yet so precise in imaging.

OP I had the PSA MTM210, all 3 vertical LCR, before I built the Titans. Very good speaker at the price, but in my room the soundstage wasn't as large as the Titans are producing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
I've not heard the Boston's (I had Boston THX towers back in the late 90s when I lived in the UK, don't recall the exact model number. VRS I think) but it could also be room dependent. I have Titans, and the sound stage is incredible here. It is uncanny how huge it is, yet so precise in imaging.

OP I had the PSA MTM210, all 3 vertical LCR, before I built the Titans. Very good speaker at the price, but in my room the soundstage wasn't as large as the Titans are producing.
Don't the Titans have a 15" woofer and a +/- 3dB response of 35Hz? I am not surprised they sound "bigger".

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Quote:
Originally Posted by slip023 View Post
Thank you all for the help! I've added the Chane A5.4 towers to my short list. The reviews I've read are really good, beating much more expensive towers.
I recently upgraded to a Chane 5.0 system (granted, from HTiB, but perhaps a useful comparison for you regardless) - click the link for the Chanes in my signature to read my review (it's near the end of the thread).

As reflected in my review, I spent a lot of time in 2.0 with the A5.4s to evaluate their sound signature and room-filling capability, as well as their bass (for a variety of music types). I typically listen with my sub on (nowhere near as capable as your Rythmik), but I'm amazed at how deep and powerful 3x 5.25" woofers can be. They won't shake your room, nor do they extend to 20 Hz (they begin to roll off around 47 Hz), but they are clean and provide some punch if you bass-boost a bit.

If you're interested at all, I'd recommend waiting for the release of the upcoming A5.5, with improved midrange. @Jon Lane is constantly tweaking his designs and improving them, so they should be even better than the A5.4.
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post #29 of 36 Old Yesterday, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Mr. Slip,

The Klipsch THX are formidable.

What is your budget.



Budget, budget, budget... I would like it to be under $4k for the 7.0 speakers. Better the more under it is lol. I'm looking mostly at used speakers so I can get the best bang for the buck.
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post #30 of 36 Old Yesterday, 03:12 PM
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You open to in wall or in ceiling solutions?

That would increase your options.

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