How much benefit going from a 89db to 94db speaker? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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How much benefit going from a 89db to 94db speaker?

Curious to hear people's thoughts on this. I currently have a JBL 235C center channel which has been tested by sound and vision to have a 89db sensitivity. I sit around 12 feet from the front of the projection screen and will be putting the JBL behind the screen. This is mostly for home theater and generally listen at -12 to -14db below reference. I never go louder than this. I also have the JBL 230s for my L/R speakers which have a tested db rating of 85db.

Here's my question: I've considered getting three of the HT-8 from DIYSG for my front sound stage for a few reasons: 1. The thought of making my own speakers sounds cool and fun, 2. Higher sensitive speakers, and 3. Less work for my Onkyo (which when tested can do 81 watts per 5 channels driven.)

I'm wondering how much benefit I would gain by going with the HT-8 considering my volume levels. I hear of higher sensitivty speakers being more "dynamic". I really don't see any concern of my system not being loud enough at the moment. Would there be a noticeable difference in my system do you suspect, or do I leave "good enough" alone? I also don't know what I haven't yet experienced. All this is run with a PSA 15V subwoofer. Would love to hear people's feedback on this. Thanks!

Speakers: Fronts- JBL 230, Center- JBL 235C, Surrounds: Fluance XLBP
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post #2 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 08:38 AM
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For your current JBL'S
85db=1 watt
88db=2 watts
91db=4 watts
95 db=10 watts
105DB=100watts

For your DIY speakers

94db=1watt
97db=2 watts
100db=4 watts
104db=10 watts
114db=100watts

You're doubling the power demand for every 3db increase. Going with more efficient speakers at your listening levels will be a big relief on your AVR. If you like your speakers and are just wanting more power, you could pick up a multi-channel power amp like Emotiva 5175 to power your front 3 speakers.

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post #3 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
For your current JBL'S
85db=1 watt
88db=2 watts
91db=4 watts
95 db=10 watts
105DB=100watts

For your DIY speakers

94db=1watt
97db=2 watts
100db=4 watts
104db=10 watts
114db=100watts

You're doubling the power demand for every 3db increase. Going with more efficient speakers at your listening levels will be a big relief on your AVR. If you like your speakers and are just wanting more power, you could pick up a multi-channel power amp like Emotiva 5175 to power your front 3 speakers.
thanks for the response. my curiosity to that is this: if speakers require 105db for reference, yet i'm listening to -14db, I'm only asking them to reach a peak of 91db, correct? Therefore, if it takes 10 watts to reach 95db for my current JBLs, wouldn't this be really easy for my AVR to do? Maybe i'm not thinking about this correctly, and if I'm not, please correct me.

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post #4 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
I'm wondering how much benefit I would gain by going with the HT-8 considering my volume levels. I hear of higher sensitivty speakers being more "dynamic". I really don't see any concern of my system not being loud enough at the moment. Would there be a noticeable difference in my system do you suspect, or do I leave "good enough" alone? I also don't know what I haven't yet experienced. All this is run with a PSA 15V subwoofer. Would love to hear people's feedback on this. Thanks!
Let's do the math!

5dB more sensitive requires around three times less power to drive than an 89dB speaker. For example,assuming your present speakers could handle the power wthout compressing, o get a 94dB 1w/1m speaake at 80 watts would require the 89dB 1w/1m speaker to run at 250 watts/ Or, if you actually ran your 89dB at 80 watts, the HT-8 would only require 25 watts to produce the same SPL.

Considering you don't really crank the system too hard, I would suspect that power is not an issue for you. Should you go for the HT-8 build? Sure! At the very minimum you'll learn new things, improve your skills at building things and the speaker build can use custom built boxes to fit your room and size requirements.

Be forewarned--once you start building speakers and audio gear--it can become addictive. Next thing you know you might fall into that rabbit hole and start building subwoofer end tables, line arrays for the garage and stack up quite a pile of power tools. I've become quite decent at wood working, not furniture grade but very decent. Alas, my wife has noticed this so I get stuck with more projects around the house.

In summation, you'll need three times less power to run the more efficient speakers so your AVR will run cooler, use less electricity, demand less for the AC unit and have 5dB more output capability. Personally, I generally go for high efficiency designs for that reason, my AVR running cool is always a win. Good luck and if you need help with your build, the DIY side will provide any tips or suggestions to get what you desire.
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post #5 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 09:35 AM
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Too many worry about the amp power and speaker volumes, but if you have enough in your current setup for your use then you could just enjoy the sound. More sensitive/efficient speakers will allow reaching higher sound volume (SPL) with less stress from the amplifier. The amp could run less hot (and maybe last longer) or will consume less energy while using it. Some save energy making more reasonable use of major appliances, everyone has their own balance between savings and convenience.


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post #6 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Curious to hear people's thoughts on this. I currently have a JBL 235C center channel which has been tested by sound and vision to have a 89db sensitivity. I sit around 12 feet from the front of the projection screen and will be putting the JBL behind the screen. This is mostly for home theater and generally listen at -12 to -14db below reference. I never go louder than this. I also have the JBL 230s for my L/R speakers which have a tested db rating of 85db.

Here's my question: I've considered getting three of the HT-8 from DIYSG for my front sound stage for a few reasons: 1. The thought of making my own speakers sounds cool and fun, 2. Higher sensitive speakers, and 3. Less work for my Onkyo (which when tested can do 81 watts per 5 channels driven.)

I'm wondering how much benefit I would gain by going with the HT-8 considering my volume levels. I hear of higher sensitivty speakers being more "dynamic". I really don't see any concern of my system not being loud enough at the moment. Would there be a noticeable difference in my system do you suspect, or do I leave "good enough" alone? I also don't know what I haven't yet experienced. All this is run with a PSA 15V subwoofer. Would love to hear people's feedback on this. Thanks!
I tested three pairs of speakers over the last few years, two rated at 92db sensitivity and my "control" rated at 88db sensitivity and in actual use, using an SPL meter and pink noise, their sensitivity at a given amp volume setting was identical.

So unless you have actual test results from one source you can't assume the more sensitive speaker on a spec sheet will actually prove to be more sensitive in practice.
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post #7 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Therefore, if it takes 10 watts to reach 95db for my current JBLs, wouldn't this be really easy for my AVR to do? Maybe i'm not thinking about this correctly, and if I'm not, please correct me.
You have to keep in mind those numbers were for 1 meter, you're sitting nearly 4 meters away, requiring somewhere around 10-12+ more db, depending upon room and setup, to get that level at the listening position. Listening to a "loud action" blueray at -10, I would expect you'll get a noticeable improvement in dynamics and reduced distortion.


However, the biggest improvement you'll likely find is a very seamless front soundstage with perfectly matched LCR, and much better dispersion (especially from the center channel) if you have multiple listeners. The HTM-8's are very impressive speakers for their cost and size.
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post #8 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 11:50 AM
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So unless you have actual test results from one source you can't assume the more sensitive speaker on a spec sheet will actually prove to be more sensitive in practice.
Oh, they will be. The ratings from the DIYSG speakers have been quite accurate in my experience and have been thoroughly tested by many others.
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post #9 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Curious to hear people's thoughts on this. I currently have a JBL 235C center channel which has been tested by sound and vision to have a 89db sensitivity. I sit around 12 feet from the front of the projection screen and will be putting the JBL behind the screen. This is mostly for home theater and generally listen at -12 to -14db below reference. I never go louder than this. I also have the JBL 230s for my L/R speakers which have a tested db rating of 85db.

Here's my question: I've considered getting three of the HT-8 from DIYSG for my front sound stage for a few reasons: 1. The thought of making my own speakers sounds cool and fun, 2. Higher sensitive speakers, and 3. Less work for my Onkyo (which when tested can do 81 watts per 5 channels driven.)

I'm wondering how much benefit I would gain by going with the HT-8 considering my volume levels. I hear of higher sensitivty speakers being more "dynamic". I really don't see any concern of my system not being loud enough at the moment. Would there be a noticeable difference in my system do you suspect, or do I leave "good enough" alone? I also don't know what I haven't yet experienced. All this is run with a PSA 15V subwoofer. Would love to hear people's feedback on this. Thanks!

Hi,

I think you have already gotten several good answers to your question. Math exercises to one side, though, are you experiencing any distortion now, or suffering from any lack of clarity at your current listening levels? If not, you may not need to upgrade to DIY speakers, but you may still want to, just for fun. Even with an acoustically transparent screen, I believe that you will lose a decibel or two, so this may be something that you want to reexamine once you have the new screen in place.

It seems to me that there are two limitations that you need to consider. First there is the sensitivity of the speakers, and second there is the amount of available amplifier power. In a situation where both are below 90db, I think that the opportunity for audible distortion is increased. But then, your listening levels are never extremely loud, so you may still be fine.

One clarification would involve a distance calculation. Outdoors, speakers and subwoofers lose 6db of SPL for every doubling of distance. Indoors, with boundary effects, that reduction in SPL is approximately halved to about -3db for every doubling of distance. So, assuming that your speakers were measured at 1m, there would be a theoretical loss of about 6db at 12' (4m).

As noted by another poster, though, theoretical sensitivity levels and distance calculations, don't always prove-out in practice. So, your ears probably remain your best judge of whether you really need an upgrade. I also think a lot depends on how much you actually like the sound signature of your current speakers, and how much you would enjoy the challenge of experimenting with DIY.

Regards,
Mike
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post #10 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 03:32 PM
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My suggestion is to not worry about the power numbers until you need to. If your current receiver does not have the power to drive your new speakers, they will sound closed-in or audibly complain as you increase the volume levels. If that is the case, then look for an external amp to take some of the load (Outlaw 5000 or Emotiva has multiple options).

Choosing speakers based on sensitivity makes sense for extremely large rooms or very high volume levels. You have neither. I have always recommended choosing the speakers first, then choosing the front end that makes them sing.

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post #11 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 04:02 PM
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The biggest thing to consider here is .. you need to like how the speakers sound.
I've spent some time with the DIY speakers you are talking about and while they would play loud they also had a "pro-audio'ish" sound to them. Not sure if that's up your alley but it definitely wasn't for me.
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post #12 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 04:14 PM
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L/R with 85 dB sensitivity at -15 MV, 12-14' distance:

Using a middle of the road estimate(-9 dB), your down to 76 dB at your listening distance with 1 watt applied. If you are 12' from the center as is, then you place it behind the screen, you may be 13'. You will be further from the L/R.

Double power for every 3 dB increase in SPL. We need to reach 90 dB peaks if the loudest you will ever listen, ever, is -15. We need to double power about 5 times, so 32 watts. If you use eq on your speakers, double power for every 3 db of eq. If the most that your eq boosts your speakers is 3 dB, 64 watts has you covered. If it boosts 6 dB anywhere, now you need 128. At this level, most AVR's will be struggling, distorting, clipping. Guarantee your speakers will be hitting massive distortion and compression at this level.

If we assume that your max volume has been decided not by actual loudness, but in large part to the harshness caused by distortion, compression, clipping, etc, look what happens as you bump your MV slightly. At -12 you need 128 watts with only 3 dB of eq applied. At -9 you need 256 watts. Not possible with your speakers and current power. Even -12 isn't going to happen.

Often times, a big reason people's maximum volume is limited to -15 or -20 or in that range, is because their system is not capable of clean, distortion free playback without clipping. This lack of capability causes things to sound intolerably loud. What many folks find is that as they upgrade to more capable speakers and more clean power, their listening levels are no longer limited by harshness caused by lack of capability, and they are able to listen louder more comfortably.

This doesn't mean that we will suddenly listen so loud that we damage our hearing. I've been in a forum members home theater with incredibly capable 99+ dB sensitive mains, and reference level was completely tolerable, not overly loud or harsh, just incredibly dynamic, immersive, and impactful. Easier to listen to than what my system was at the time even at -10 MV or lower.

My vote would be yes, definitely get the HT or HTM-8's. I recently built a set of the HTM-8's. The accuracy of the frequency response was a drastic improvement over my previous bookshelf speakers, the sensitivity improvement was true to advertised specs, and the response consistency across all my seating was amazing.

The L/R will use 1/8th the power of your current L/R going from 85 dB to 94 for the same listening levels. Can almost guarantee you'll find yourself comfortably listening at -10MV or higher.

Can move your L/R to surrounds, repurpose, sell, whatever.
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post #13 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 05:27 PM
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they also had a "pro-audio'ish" sound to them. Not sure if that's up your alley but it definitely wasn't for me.
Could you describe what a "pro audio'ish" sound is?
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post #14 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 05:40 PM
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Often times, a big reason people's maximum volume is limited to -15 or -20 or in that range, is because their system is not capable of clean, distortion free playback without clipping. This lack of capability causes things to sound intolerably loud. What many folks find is that as they upgrade to more capable speakers and more clean power, their listening levels are no longer limited by harshness caused by lack of capability, and they are able to listen louder more comfortably.
I hear that, pardon the pun. For many years nearly every time my wife and I watched a movie she would make me turn it down, sometimes to the point dialog was difficult to understand and big, impactful sounds weren't so impactful. Since building a few DIYSG speakers, she hasn't been bothered at all, even at significantly higher volumes. Big sounds are big and impactful, but not painful.


Of course they are far from the only speakers that can do it, but it is something they do well.
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post #15 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 05:43 PM
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I've seen it mentioned that women are more sensitive to distortion. Wonder if there is any truth to that?
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post #16 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 06:57 PM
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Could you describe what a "pro audio'ish" sound is?
M
Yeah sure... you ever been to a wedding?
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I've seen it mentioned that women are more sensitive to distortion. Wonder if there is any truth to that?
Sure, they are looking for a reason to ask you to get those speakers out of the living room...
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Yeah sure... you ever been to a wedding?
Oh, I'm well aware of what cheap PA speakers have historically sounded like. But since the HTM's don't sound anything remotely like that, I was wondering what you were talking about.
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post #19 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 10:42 PM
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M
Yeah sure... you ever been to a wedding?
Beautiful! Spit that bait right out!

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post #20 of 24 Old 07-20-2019, 11:35 PM
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Oh, I'm well aware of what cheap PA speakers have historically sounded like. But since the HTM's don't sound anything remotely like that, I was wondering what you were talking about.
I know what he is talking about--the people that judge a speaker by looking at it. Back in the 90's, I did run a PA but at a night club and was hired specifically to have great sound quality. The running joke with the manager was I'd be fired if a band sounded better than my system. I ended up with actively bi-amped 3-way mains sitting on active subwoofers and three amps running (and a spare amp just in case) The processor rack had your traditional 1/3rd octave EQs, compressor limiter gates and other processing typical of the 90's era. All microphones were gated and compressed and I used SM-58's to avoid feedback and they could be used as hammers in a pinch. To make the speaker less "PA ish" I removed the steel grills and applied grey acoustic cloth over the metal to avoid looking at a bunch of speaker drivers. The brand/model number was removed so it offered a more plain, less garish loook. If the person wanted to know the brand, they can look at the back which lead to the questions of why I was running two speaker cables into each speaker and so on. To do proper setup/testing, I used the standard for that time a test CD with sweeps, pink noise along with a calibrated SPL meter and a portable RTA to check things. There was a compressor limiter above the club mixer that would start compressing at 0dB at 3 to 1 compression then limit at +6dB to keep the signal maxing out no matter what happens at +2dB. That specific sound leve was chosen by the manager to keep a very even max SPL level from week to week.

Had some friends thhat tied the knot and was goat ropped into be a "wedding DJ". I used the very large/complex and heavy PA...a bit overkill but can't let your buddies down. This is when you get exposed to creatures you won't at the club (you can't see the equipment at the club) I call that creature "that guy"--you know the one. They tend to come in early and look at the PA all setup and go through your system looking for something to complain about. Generally speaking, they start with the speakers (what brand, how much do they cost etc.) I tell them to look at the back to get the brand...they might as well be reading Latin since the brand is not one at the local audio shop. They then ask what it is, how big are the woofers, what kind of tweeters etc...I tell them "You tell me". Basically along the lines of "No, I won't unscrew the grills so you can look at the parts, no--I won't tell you what they are and NO...I won't tell you what they cost."

They then look at the amp rack and complain that all the amps are not the same brand, that messes up the "synergy" or something and in the processor rack who is "Rane".... some kind of generic brand? Some of them throw in that all EQs are bad, any type of processor is bad and so on. Then, of course they proclaim all PA speakers sound like crap because "You can't get smooth response out of a truck"...or whatever way they want to put it. Once I start playing some music they will "help" by telling me it sounds to bright/dark/shrill/bass not tight enough and I give them the poker face "I don't have bright/dark/shrill or bass tightening controls on my EQ...I need to know the specific numbers to adjust it". Normally, I fake making some adjustments to get them away from me and smile and nod.

So yeah, I understand the concept of people hearing basic PA speakers ran hard into clipping by a band that is learning about how to play their instruments so the actual PA is not setup properly. For some reason, for some people whatever they are exposed to first in life is a "rule" and I was not put on this earth to educate them. Those type people think I put acoustic cloth over the metal grills to "hide" el cheapo parts or something. It never occures to them fhat, for the most part people think hiding drivers tends to look better and the cloth protects the drivers from flying drinks, people sneezing (puking) and so on. To this day, even with consumer home speakers I change the grill cloth to look better with the color chosen by my wife. No brand names, no clue what is inside as you have the physically remove the grill and look behind the speaker on the back. 99% of people I've run in over the years generally don't care about the brand, how much it costs or what the drivers are--they care if it sounds good--and it does! Every year or two I run into "that guy" that needs to pick apart the system for some reason. My speakers are either too large, too small, too many subwoofers, not enough subwoofers and why do I use PA amplifiers with DSP to drive subwoofers? Brand X is sooooo much better, you need audio grade speaker cables (???) and so on.

I used to entertain myself by making up things--mystical capacitors inside the speaker, frozen cables, thousand hours of "break in" and that sort of thing I guess I'm getting old and cranky, I just tell the person very basic information that the system was designed to do a specific thing and it will change when my needs change.

To explain why PA speakers do what they do, first you have to have a decent understanding of how speakers work, how waveguides and horns work, why crossover frequencies are selected for different desgns, different dispersion charachteristics, frequency ranges, durability, size/weight constrains and so on. Just because a $5,000 PA speaker looks like a $200 PA speaker does not mean they sound alike. As always, it is critical to setup the system properly and when building a PA system--you have limited time to do so. Granted, after you do dozens of setups in all sorts of venues--including outside, you tend to figure it out and learn how to get the best possible sound quality in acoustically poor rooms.

In summation, it is not always the speakers fault--setup can be very complex in a short period of time. Take your home speakers and put them in a large, square room with tile floors and attempt to get any form of decent sound out of them. The lowest cost PA speakers have to be of a certain size, weight, cost and above all be durable so they don't blow up. If you want sound quality, that costs extra and it requires a lot of support equipment that is assumed you own, know how to use, make proper measurements and so on. The pro sound companies assume you know what you are doing when dropping over a grand for each speaker--if you don't, that is not their problem! Just don't be "that guy" that groups an entire industry and speaker designs into one clump as being "bad" because it "looks like" a system done incorrectly with equipment that was "Not enough rig for the gig". I don't complain about all tower speakers because of the poor performance of rack systems back in the day. There is a huge difference between a JBL JRX 115 and a JBL M2 although "they look about the same". Technology does move on, waveguides and horns are not just for wedding DJ's anymore! Don't be "that guy".
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post #21 of 24 Old 07-21-2019, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
I know what he is talking about--the people that judge a speaker by looking at it.
My mistake; it didn't seem to me he was talking about those people, but instead being one of them. As you know, there are plenty of people on this board who, upon seeing a "horn" will basically start complaining about how much their ears hurt--before you even turn on the music. Maybe the grey cloth should be mandatory.
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post #22 of 24 Old 07-21-2019, 07:25 AM
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Oh, they will be. The ratings from the DIYSG speakers have been quite accurate in my experience and have been thoroughly tested by many others.
I'm not sure about the HMT's (but they look very similar tho) but my comment was regarding the speakers the OP was referring too...the HT-8's. I spent time comparing them "ht-8" with a few other speakers and "I" along with a few others didn't care for some of the characteristics of the way they sounded. Was referred to as kinda "pro-audio'ish".

My intention wasn't to defend you.. clearly you like them. You owned them but, I don't care for them or the way they sounded.

There's a lot more to achieving great sound then just higher sensitivity.
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post #23 of 24 Old 07-21-2019, 07:39 AM
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I know what he is talking about--the people that judge a speaker by looking at it. Back in the 90's, I did run a PA but at a night club and was hired specifically to have great sound quality. The running joke with the manager was I'd be fired if a band sounded better than my system. I ended up with actively bi-amped 3-way mains sitting on active subwoofers and three amps running (and a spare amp just in case) The processor rack had your traditional 1/3rd octave EQs, compressor limiter gates and other processing typical of the 90's era. All microphones were gated and compressed and I used SM-58's to avoid feedback and they could be used as hammers in a pinch. To make the speaker less "PA ish" I removed the steel grills and applied grey acoustic cloth over the metal to avoid looking at a bunch of speaker drivers. The brand/model number was removed so it offered a more plain, less garish loook. If the person wanted to know the brand, they can look at the back which lead to the questions of why I was running two speaker cables into each speaker and so on. To do proper setup/testing, I used the standard for that time a test CD with sweeps, pink noise along with a calibrated SPL meter and a portable RTA to check things. There was a compressor limiter above the club mixer that would start compressing at 0dB at 3 to 1 compression then limit at +6dB to keep the signal maxing out no matter what happens at +2dB. That specific sound leve was chosen by the manager to keep a very even max SPL level from week to week.

Had some friends thhat tied the knot and was goat ropped into be a "wedding DJ". I used the very large/complex and heavy PA...a bit overkill but can't let your buddies down. This is when you get exposed to creatures you won't at the club (you can't see the equipment at the club) I call that creature "that guy"--you know the one. They tend to come in early and look at the PA all setup and go through your system looking for something to complain about. Generally speaking, they start with the speakers (what brand, how much do they cost etc.) I tell them to look at the back to get the brand...they might as well be reading Latin since the brand is not one at the local audio shop. They then ask what it is, how big are the woofers, what kind of tweeters etc...I tell them "You tell me". Basically along the lines of "No, I won't unscrew the grills so you can look at the parts, no--I won't tell you what they are and NO...I won't tell you what they cost."

They then look at the amp rack and complain that all the amps are not the same brand, that messes up the "synergy" or something and in the processor rack who is "Rane".... some kind of generic brand? Some of them throw in that all EQs are bad, any type of processor is bad and so on. Then, of course they proclaim all PA speakers sound like crap because "You can't get smooth response out of a truck"...or whatever way they want to put it. Once I start playing some music they will "help" by telling me it sounds to bright/dark/shrill/bass not tight enough and I give them the poker face "I don't have bright/dark/shrill or bass tightening controls on my EQ...I need to know the specific numbers to adjust it". Normally, I fake making some adjustments to get them away from me and smile and nod.

So yeah, I understand the concept of people hearing basic PA speakers ran hard into clipping by a band that is learning about how to play their instruments so the actual PA is not setup properly. For some reason, for some people whatever they are exposed to first in life is a "rule" and I was not put on this earth to educate them. Those type people think I put acoustic cloth over the metal grills to "hide" el cheapo parts or something. It never occures to them fhat, for the most part people think hiding drivers tends to look better and the cloth protects the drivers from flying drinks, people sneezing (puking) and so on. To this day, even with consumer home speakers I change the grill cloth to look better with the color chosen by my wife. No brand names, no clue what is inside as you have the physically remove the grill and look behind the speaker on the back. 99% of people I've run in over the years generally don't care about the brand, how much it costs or what the drivers are--they care if it sounds good--and it does! Every year or two I run into "that guy" that needs to pick apart the system for some reason. My speakers are either too large, too small, too many subwoofers, not enough subwoofers and why do I use PA amplifiers with DSP to drive subwoofers? Brand X is sooooo much better, you need audio grade speaker cables (???) and so on.

I used to entertain myself by making up things--mystical capacitors inside the speaker, frozen cables, thousand hours of "break in" and that sort of thing I guess I'm getting old and cranky, I just tell the person very basic information that the system was designed to do a specific thing and it will change when my needs change.

To explain why PA speakers do what they do, first you have to have a decent understanding of how speakers work, how waveguides and horns work, why crossover frequencies are selected for different desgns, different dispersion charachteristics, frequency ranges, durability, size/weight constrains and so on. Just because a $5,000 PA speaker looks like a $200 PA speaker does not mean they sound alike. As always, it is critical to setup the system properly and when building a PA system--you have limited time to do so. Granted, after you do dozens of setups in all sorts of venues--including outside, you tend to figure it out and learn how to get the best possible sound quality in acoustically poor rooms.

In summation, it is not always the speakers fault--setup can be very complex in a short period of time. Take your home speakers and put them in a large, square room with tile floors and attempt to get any form of decent sound out of them. The lowest cost PA speakers have to be of a certain size, weight, cost and above all be durable so they don't blow up. If you want sound quality, that costs extra and it requires a lot of support equipment that is assumed you own, know how to use, make proper measurements and so on. The pro sound companies assume you know what you are doing when dropping over a grand for each speaker--if you don't, that is not their problem! Just don't be "that guy" that groups an entire industry and speaker designs into one clump as being "bad" because it "looks like" a system done incorrectly with equipment that was "Not enough rig for the gig". I don't complain about all tower speakers because of the poor performance of rack systems back in the day. There is a huge difference between a JBL JRX 115 and a JBL M2 although "they look about the same". Technology does move on, waveguides and horns are not just for wedding DJ's anymore! Don't be "that guy".
WoW dude!
All that just to tell me that you didn't agree with my opinion.
My apologies for hurting your feelings.

Oh.. thanks for giving me a label...
Like you know me.
I've owned horn loaded speakers for over 20 years...!

Last edited by WOKNROX; 07-21-2019 at 07:44 AM.
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post #24 of 24 Old 07-21-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by WOKNROX View Post
I'm not sure about the HMT's (but they look very similar tho) but my comment was regarding the speakers the OP was referring too...the HT-8's. I spent time comparing them "ht-8" with a few other speakers and "I" along with a few others didn't care for some of the characteristics of the way they sounded.
Thanks, I just wanted more details, that's all. For example the HTM-8's have a HF pad built into the crossover that could be engaged or not.... And you're right--I misread the first post and thought he was talking about the HTMs, not the HT's. My bad, too much multitasking I guess.


I haven't heard the HT-8's. It's said they are very good for the price, but they do have significantly less expensive drivers and a less sophisticated crossover so I wouldn't realistically expect them to sound as good. The sentence you quoted above, however, was specifically addressing their rated sensitivity spec--I would expect that to be accurate.
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