13.2 Setup & Music vs. A/V Questions - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 41 Old 07-22-2019, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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13.2 Setup & Music vs. A/V Questions

All -

I really need some sound advice. <—pun

Current setup is all Klipsch. It’s laid out as 9.1, but since my current AVR is Denon X3500 (7.1) I ran the LCR in either series or parallel as a single center (not sure which way it was done, my integrator did it). I’m about to buy an AVR X8500 that will process 13.2 channels. My room is awkward and the only way to place or mount the speakers is as I’ve done (below).

Here’s what’s there now:

Running down each side of the room 16’ apart are 3 pairs of R-14S’s 8’ off of the floor.
A G-42 LCR under the television at mantel height
A R115SW sub (sitting right front side)
4 - Sonance MAG6R 6.5” in-ceilings

My end goal is to provide a multi speaker setup for all of the latest movie sound profiles (Atmos, IMAX, etc.), but to also create a better 2.1 or 3.1 music sound system (I’ll “may” be using a 3-channel separate amp to the preouts for the “fronts”. I will be replacing the front set of R-14S (these are made for surround) with RP-600m’s angled in and down to the listener.

Here are my questions.

Should I angle the Surrounds and Rear Surrounds down? I’m not sure how much that matters. It’s going to look strange (the R-14S’s are half moon shaped and sit flush against a wall by design).

Should I keep the G-42 in a series or parallel (and which?) and continue to run that as a single center - and how will this sound with a 3.1 music platform? If I don’t, should I use the L&R of the LCR as “Fronts” even though Ill have a much better speaker (RP-600m’s) above and angled in and down (all of the speakers are 15’ apart side to side)? Maybe both the L&R of the LCR and the RP-600m’s are “fronts”?

Should I even bother with exogenous amping 3 channels for music, or just amp 2? (I’m wanting to get a really nice amp for music, the Denon is more than suitable for A/V, but isn’t really audiophile quality for music.

So there you have it. I hope I’ve painted a good picture for you. I am really wanting your advice. This is important to me. So much so, I’m completely stressed.


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post #2 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 02:13 PM
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What?

Are you saying that you have your front 3 speakers wired to the center channel output of your receiver??

If the answer is yes, my next question is why would any "integrator" do that? And, how are you hearing the audio from the front left/right speaker outputs? And, how did you (or said "integrator") run Audyssey?? AFAIK, if you lack FL/FR speakers, Audyssey will not run.


Color me very confused...
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post #3 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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13.2 Setup &amp; Music vs. A/V Questions

Yes my LCR is wired as a single center. I did not ever run Auddessey. I don’t have a cable long enough and I’m told that it’s not reliable over 50’. I’m 80’ from the media room.

This is precisely the reason for my post. I’m trying to come up with the best scenario. Originally, I was set on rewiring it back to 3 channels. So I asked two things about that:

1. Is there harm in doing what I did and what’s the best wiring (parallel versus series?). There are 3 8ohm speakers comprising the G-42 LCR.

2. If I use it as an LCR (like it’s intended to be used). Which speakers would I want those to be (fronts?). Reason I ask is that although it’s a nice LCR, the new RP-600M’s will be much better for 2 channel music. I just worry the RP’s are too far apart (16’) and too high off the floor (8’).

I’d love to show the room layout so I can get the best thoughts. Is there an app or site or software that will allow me to draw it? This way I could show dimensions and speaker models and position.


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post #4 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 04:44 PM
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That one goes in the book...
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post #5 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 04:44 PM
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Yes my LCR is wired as a single center. I did not ever run Auddessey. I don’t have a cable long enough and I’m told that it’s not reliable over 50’. I’m 80’ from the media room.

This is precisely the reason for my post. I’m trying to come up with the beat scenario. Originally, I was set on rewiring it back to 3 channels. So I asked two things about that:

1. Is there harm in doing what I did and what’s the best wiring (parallel versus series?). There are 3 8ohm speakers comprising the G-42 LCR.

2. If I use it as an LCR (like it’s intended to be used). Which speakers would I want those to be (fronts?). Reason I ask is that although it’s a nice LCR, the new RP-600M’s will be much better for 2 channel music. I just worry the RP’s are too far apart (16’) and too high off the floor (8’).

I’d love to show the room layout so I can get the best thoughts. Is there an app or site or software that will allow me to draw it? This way I could show dimensions and speaker models and position.


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I used to use SketchUp but it's no longer Google and it's complicated as hell to get started with now. I'm sure someone could recommend an alternative.

In the meantime, could you take a picture?

And this is your LCR? https://www.klipsch.com/products/kli...llery-speakers
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post #6 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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That one goes in the book...


How so? I’m being serious.


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post #7 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I used to use SketchUp but it's no longer Google and it's complicated as hell to get started with now. I'm sure someone could recommend an alternative.



In the meantime, could you take a picture?



And this is your LCR? https://www.klipsch.com/products/kli...llery-speakers


Yes that is my LCR.

I’ll have to get a picture when I get home Friday. I’m traveling this week. But I’ll definitely try to post something for you to wrap your head around.


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post #8 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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That one goes in the book...


If you’re talking about using my LCR as solely a center... no excuse, but here’s what happened. I bought the X3500 thinking it had a set of posts for front height. My setup at the time with the LCR was 9.1, but I could only process or wire 7.1. They tried running the fronts and front heights as one, but that sounded horrible. When they wired the LCR together, it actually sounded much better.

I’ve added 4 in-ceilings and am adding an X8500 and running a 3 channel preout amp for the fronts for music.


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post #9 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 05:30 PM
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That is a nice looking soundbar....
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post #10 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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That is a nice looking soundbar....


When I use it as intended, it sounds fantastic. It’s very rich sounding, not tinnie or muffled. Just very clear and rich. I’d buy this again. I’ve had some really great LCR’s over the years, this is by far the sleekest and best sounding. I shopped for 2 months and I kept coming back to the G-42. It was far less expensive than anything else I listened to, but it was hands down the best I heard. You can’t imagine sound like that can come out if it.


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post #11 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 05:48 PM
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How so? I’m being serious.


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Clarify for me, so I can be certain I understand. You have a passive soundbar, essentially a left/center/right speaker in one enclosure, connected only as a center. Then you have six side surround speakers, and nothing reproducing the actual front left or right channels?
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post #12 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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No, there are R-14S’s as fronts temporarily.


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post #13 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 06:24 PM
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No, there are R-14S’s as fronts temporarily.
...but they're mounted on the side walls? The explanation is all incredibly confusing.
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post #14 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes. Mounted on the sides. There is no wall facing.


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post #15 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 07:12 PM
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Yes. Mounted on the sides. There is no wall facing.


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We'll definitely need some pictures to help us understand what's going on. The way you have this whole thing wired is very confusing.

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post #16 of 41 Old 07-23-2019, 07:39 PM
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We'll definitely need some pictures to help us understand what's going on. The way you have this whole thing wired is very confusing.
Agreed!


Here's what I get. There's a passive LCR soundbar in the front, with all three channels connected to the center channel. Three pairs of side surround speakers spaced at 16' increments on the side walls (guess it's a BIG room) with the front pair wired to the L&R channels, and the other two pairs, presumably, wired to the side and rear surrounds.


I'm sorry to be incredulous, but you paid someone to set this up for you?

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post #17 of 41 Old 07-24-2019, 05:04 AM - Thread Starter
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The side speakers are 16’ apart (spread).

The wall is 18’ long with the first set at the plane of the TV, the second at 9’ and the rears at 18’.

I’m not faulting them. They were themselves very critical of the room. The LCR wired together as one would be the only issue.


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post #18 of 41 Old 07-28-2019, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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We'll definitely need some pictures to help us understand what's going on. The way you have this whole thing wired is very confusing.



That’s a head on shot. The surrounds are at the same height as the wall mounted fronts. The rears equidistance from them further down.

The fronts will be replaced with Klipsch RP-600m’s facing inward a tad and down a tad.

Each pair of In-ceilings will be mounted dead in between fronts and surrounds and surrounds and rears. The pairs will be about 8’ apart (left to right) to help fill the middle more.

I posted in the X8500 Owners thread regarding my Audyssey problem. (It’s too far from the rack to the listening area (approx 65-80’)).

So go easy guys - Everyone is hung up on the K-42 wired together as one center. That was temp until the X3500 got replaced. And what speakers will those be? Fronts?

If you read my OP, it explains my goal. It may be too much to ask though. So even recommend the best compromise.

Thanks again guys. I really am stressed over this.




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post #19 of 41 Old 07-29-2019, 11:20 AM
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Thanks again guys. I really am stressed over this.




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If my math is right using three 8 ohm speakers in the G42 in parallel presents a 2.66 ohm load to the receiver so if it works for you and the receiver doesn't get unusually hot and/or shut down then I guess it "works" albeit in an unorthodox way.

Of course the G42 actually has four woofers, (two for the center), so the load might even be lower.

But again, if it works, who am I to argue.

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post #20 of 41 Old 07-29-2019, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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If my math is right using three 8 ohm speakers in the G42 in parallel presents a 2.66 ohm load to the receiver so if it works for you and the receiver doesn't get unusually hot and/or shut down then I guess it "works" albeit in an unorthodox way.

Of course the G42 actually has four woofers, (two for the center), so the load might even be lower.

But again, if it works, who am I to argue.
That was strictly a temporary situation while I was using the X3500 7.1. With the new X8500, those will be separately driven.

So that takes me back to my OP. Any thoughts? The room is definitely not idea.
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post #21 of 41 Old 07-29-2019, 11:47 AM
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So that takes me back to my OP. Any thoughts? The room is definitely not idea.
Only way to get a decent front stage of 3 separate speakers without blocking the windows or drilling into that nice stone fireplace is to have compact bookshelf speakers (preferably 3 identical) on sturdy mounts bolted into the ceiling just between the top of the window frames and the ceilings (or from a ceiling joist) and angled downwards towards. This would eliminate the benefit of having front height speakers but I'd rather have a solid front stage esp. if you ever do any 2 channel music listening, than a perfect Atmos experience.

A few possible candidates:

Ascend 200SE
NHT SuperOne or C1/C3
RSL CG5
Hsu HB-1

Or if you can find mounts for 20-25lb speakers:

Ascend Sierra 1 or 2 or 2EX
...etc

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #22 of 41 Old 07-29-2019, 11:48 AM
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That was strictly a temporary situation while I was using the X3500 7.1. With the new X8500, those will be separately driven.

So that takes me back to my OP. Any thoughts? The room is definitely not idea.
I'd hold off on new speakers or an outboard amp and buy the 8500 and wire the 3 channel center correctly using center, left and right and the use the top left and top right speakers in the corners by the ceiling as Atmos or height channels.

See how that sounds.

I'm guessing you don't have room for a "normal" center speaker.

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post #23 of 41 Old 07-29-2019, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd hold off on new speakers or an outboard amp and buy the 8500 and wire the 3 channel center correctly using center, left and right and the use the top left and top right speakers in the corners by the ceiling as Atmos or height channels.



See how that sounds.



I'm guessing you don't have room for a "normal" center speaker.


So that means my 2 channel music will be playing from the “fronts” in the LCR.

What about my new RP-600m’s? I am mounting them down a tad lower 6” and aiming them down and in some.

I think you can custom program the 8500 to play whatever you set up. As in, if I use the 600’s for front height, in a AV setup, I could use only them and my sub for 2.1 stereo music. Or are they too far apart?


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post #24 of 41 Old 07-30-2019, 08:37 AM
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So that means my 2 channel music will be playing from the “fronts” in the LCR.

What about my new RP-600m’s? I am mounting them down a tad lower 6” and aiming them down and in some.

I think you can custom program the 8500 to play whatever you set up. As in, if I use the 600’s for front height, in a AV setup, I could use only them and my sub for 2.1 stereo music. Or are they too far apart?


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Get the RP600s and install them with your current AVR and see if just using the center feed to your center speaker and sending the left and rights to your RP600s sounds good to you.

If not then proceed with your plan.

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post #25 of 41 Old 07-30-2019, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Get the RP600s and install them with your current AVR and see if just using the center feed to your center speaker and sending the left and rights to your RP600s sounds good to you.

If not then proceed with your plan.
Thank you @gajCA
I'm not 100% clear on what you are saying about the LCR. I get that you want me to make the 600's the L & R's.
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post #26 of 41 Old 07-30-2019, 08:48 AM
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Thank you @gajCA
I'm not 100% clear on what you are saying about the LCR. I get that you want me to make the 600's the L & R's.
Just use the center tweeter and two woofers assigned to it in you Klipsch LCR to test your RP600s for music and it just might suffice for movies in that mode.

You'd be "giving up" using two tweeters and two woofers by trying this idea with your LCR.
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post #27 of 41 Old 07-30-2019, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Just use the center tweeter and two woofers assigned to it in you Klipsch LCR to test your RP600s for music and it just might suffice for movies in that mode.



You'd be "giving up" using two tweeters and two woofers by trying this idea with your LCR.


That’s what I thought you were suggesting. Thanks.


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post #28 of 41 Old 07-31-2019, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys.

I have two other scenarios (and I’m going to copy in @jdsmoothie , he’s the resident expert on all things X8500), because I don’t understand yet the capability of the processing control in the X8500.

1. For 2-channel music can I ask the Denon to use the wall speakers (RP-600m’s), the center (only the center and not the LCR L&R’s) with one of the subs (R-115SW)?

Or-

2. For two-channel music, can I ask the Denon to play both the L&R (TOGETHER WITH THE RP-600m’s) and center (with the sub)? I THINK you can do “Custom” profiles. ***

Or-

3. Should or can I leave the G-42 wired as a single center and play the 600’s, the center and a sub. (I’d rather not if you all think this is an issue), but if I leave it wired as one, that allows me a 3rd set of good in-ceilings for all of the newer AV Atmos, IMAX etc. profiles. ***

Or-

4. I can sell the G-42 and replace with a good quality center. And run the 600’s with the center and a sub for stereo music.

*** another possibility would be adding a good quality Amp for solely the LCR. I was considering this regardless.

So, there you have it. This is why I’m so stressed.




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post #29 of 41 Old 07-31-2019, 09:26 AM
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Thanks guys.

I have two other scenarios (and I’m going to copy in @jdsmoothie , he’s the resident expert on all things X8500), because I don’t understand yet the capability of the processing control in the X8500.

1. For 2-channel music can I ask the Denon to use the wall speakers (RP-600m’s), the center (only the center and not the LCR L&R’s) with one of the subs (R-115SW)?

Or-

2. For two-channel music, can I ask the Denon to play both the L&R (TOGETHER WITH THE RP-600m’s) and center (with the sub)? I THINK you can do “Custom” profiles. ***

Or-

3. Should or can I leave the G-42 wired as a single center and play the 600’s, the center and a sub. (I’d rather not if you all think this is an issue), but if I leave it wired as one, that allows me a 3rd set of good in-ceilings for all of the newer AV Atmos, IMAX etc. profiles. ***

Or-

4. I can sell the G-42 and replace with a good quality center. And run the 600’s with the center and a sub for stereo music.

*** another possibility would be adding a good quality Amp for solely the LCR. I was considering this regardless.

So, there you have it. This is why I’m so stressed.




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I can't answer your "custom settings" question as I simply play 2.0 for music and 5.1 for movies but how much room do you have for a new real center speaker?

Geoff A. J., California
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post #30 of 41 Old 07-31-2019, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I can't answer your "custom settings" question as I simply play 2.0 for music and 5.1 for movies but how much room do you have for a new real center speaker?
I would have whatever space the G-42 now occupies (6" x 42") plus I can add a few inches in height and many in length. Depth can't really be any more than 9".

Thanks!
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