Credibility of "Professional" Speaker Reviews dealt a Death Blow - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 169 Old 09-11-2019, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by joentell View Post
LOL, "ignored each other like working pros."

It wasn't even that. I was just busting my *** trying to get a million things done. I also was in charge of the $1000 budget room. They also had me do 2 seminars. I didn't eat lunch any of those days. I had a croissant in my camera bag I had forgotten to eat.

I would've gone to that press event had I been invited too! My point is, "people" will twist that around as if there's some conspiracy. LMAO! I bet if people understood the work behind it and the reward ratio, they wouldn't trade their job for ours. :-)

I just posted a link to this thread on my YouTube community page. I want my audience to see this discussion.

You're right about the line being determined by my audience. After all, it's their eyeballs that companies are seeking. They're not really mine to give away without permission. So I always ask them and consult with them. I've done surveys asking if they're ok with me doing sponsored stuff. Resounding "Yes, you deserve it! Keep making great content."
Cool. Here's that link for anyone here reading this thread: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2j..._V8NDAx4AaABCQ

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post #152 of 169 Old 09-11-2019, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post
I'm not sure Joentell understands why he has (or had) so many viewers.

You see, many folk don't trust the usual reviewers from Stereophile. They think they have been bought by advertisiers.

So they put more faith in 'mavens' on YouTube. Funky down with it types like yourself and Zeos and Darko.

Like you're on their side.

It turns out you are no more on their side than Kim Kardashian is on the side of those who subscribe to her sponsored life.

You are on the take.

If you can't comprehend how taking money from a company to make a video may possibly affect your ability to review their products impartially you need to take a quick ethics course.

You can of course take as much payola as you like. But you should state that fact up front before every video.

You may be worried that if you do that people will stop watching.

And that's the point.
what has been ignored here altogether is the consumer de-evolution that has been going on for a full decade .. we as consumers have been bombarded with *so much BS* since the advent of the interwebs that it is impossible to discern between real and fictitious reviews.. some are obvious , but many bs reviews are posted with great effort to sell product.. add to this the death of brick & mortar showrooms and reasonably easy returns for audio products ,, this along with the prevalence of internet only audio companies spells a disaster in the making for audio hobbyists *in the long run* .. what i am saying is that *the hobby is becoming a part time job*...that will work only as long as the true hobbyists that started a while back can still enjoy the hobby , those days are numbered...the next gen will be listening mostly to soundbars and ear buds , imo.. best of luck to the industry that created this trend, i fear it's days , as we know it , are numbered... all to the chagrin of the hobbyist ( the only real victim in this equation .it is our money that fuels the industry )....

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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post #153 of 169 Old 09-11-2019, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Hi Joe, good to see you there. We ignored each other like working pros! Hope the show went well for you.


Yes I'm more enthused about stuff I buy for myself and tend to "hype" it more... but these days that's usually something other than audio gear (drone/scooter/new PC).

I get "punished" for writing long, technical reviews. I get plenty of "thank you" when I post links to audio gear that's on sale and include a "Buy Now" button. So I'm leaving the technical objective reviewing to folks who are dedicated to it. I moved into an apartment that effectively ends my ability to review systems the way I used to (think 7.2.4 with full-size towers in the mix)

I appreciate the post and would like very much to focus on one comment (bolded): Yes, press goes to (embargoed) press events that they are invited to! Very helpful to have that familiarity before the official unveiling. I do the same for TVs.

Anyhow, my point (which you clearly agree with) was that there is no line if your audience does not think there is a line. That's about it. I agree!

When it comes to show coverage, I tell everyone the truth: I am a gonzo journalist. So of course I'm "there" and actively participating. And yes I'm biased, that's why I'm vocally critical of BS when I see it, like power cords that cost as much as cars.
I'm not sure Joentell understands why he has (or had) so many viewers.

You see, many folk don't trust the usual reviewers from Stereophile. They think they have been bought by advertisiers.

So they put more faith in 'mavens' on YouTube. Funky down with it types like yourself and Zeos and Darko.

Like you're on their side.

It turns out you are no more on their side than Kim Kardashian is on the side of those who subscribe to her sponsored life.

You are on the take.

If you can't comprehend how taking money from a company to make a video may possibly affect your ability to review their products impartially you need to take a quick ethics course.

You can of course take as much payola as you like. But you should state that fact up front before every video.

You may be worried that if you do that people will stop watching.

And that's the point.
I think you should re-read my entire post. I surveyed my audience and asked them if they were ok with sponsorships. I did this many months ago. They said they were ok with it as long as there was transparency. Look at my recent Polk video. Is that not transparent enough?

Also, I don't think you know 100% the reason for my "success". You make it sound like anyone can start just making videos and their success is due to lack of trust from traditional media. How about all the work that goes into making videos?
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post #154 of 169 Old 09-11-2019, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post
I'm not sure Joentell understands why he has (or had) so many viewers.

You see, many folk don't trust the usual reviewers from Stereophile. They think they have been bought by advertisiers.

So they put more faith in 'mavens' on YouTube. Funky down with it types like yourself and Zeos and Darko.

Like you're on their side.

It turns out you are no more on their side than Kim Kardashian is on the side of those who subscribe to her sponsored life.

You are on the take.

If you can't comprehend how taking money from a company to make a video may possibly affect your ability to review their products impartially you need to take a quick ethics course.

You can of course take as much payola as you like. But you should state that fact up front before every video.

You may be worried that if you do that people will stop watching.

And that's the point.
what has been ignored here altogether is the consumer de-evolution that has been going on for a full decade .. we as consumers have been bombarded with *so much BS* since the advent of the interwebs that it is impossible to discern between real and fictitious reviews.. some are obvious , but many bs reviews are posted with great effort to sell product.. add to this the death of brick & mortar showrooms and reasonably easy returns for audio products ,, this along with the prevalence of internet only audio companies spells a disaster in the making for audio hobbyists *in the long run* .. what i am saying is that *the hobby is becoming a part time job*...that will work only as long as the true hobbyists that started a while back can still enjoy the hobby , those days are numbered...the next gen will be listening mostly to soundbars and ear buds , imo.. best of luck to the industry that created this trend, i fear it's days , as we know it , are numbered... all to the chagrin of the hobbyist ( the only real victim in this equation .it is our money that fuels the industry )....
You and Steve make it sound as if anyone who makes a living doing something is not to be trusted. This makes me laugh because that's as if every employee of a company automatically loses all integrity the moment they get their paycheck. You know, that true integrity is about maintaining that integrity despite the circumstances right?

Are either of you two employed or have ever been employed? Did you lose all integrity?

I haven't worked for anyone in 20 years. I've run my own businesses which means I can say no to whoever I want also. I've said no to many individuals and companies despite offers with lots of zeros. Money isn't the top priority. Having fun, sticking to my core values and beliefs and doing something I think is important Trump's making money. If it follows me, I'm not going to turn it away though.

I don't see you guys offering to pay for my family's food and I don't expect it. Until then, I will continue earning an honest living. Thanks. I wish everything were free, but the world doesn't work that way.
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post #155 of 169 Old 09-11-2019, 12:26 PM
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I often use reviewers and some magazines as baseline/information what I have personally found over the years is that so much of this is room and person dependent. You can put a really great speaker in a really lousy room and it's no longer a really great speaker. So whenever possible you should always try to demo a speaker in your room, with your ears, on your equipment. I do find measurements and data points to be helpful. If a speaker plays flat that is good to know. If a speaker is rated 90db sensitivity but only measures 85db that is good to know. If the build quality is shoddy that is good to know.

Many reviews can be used to weed through some of those data points, example I have found Audioholics to provide pretty straightforward measurements and data points and I am quite sure they get ad revenue, etc.

I really don't put all my eggs in one basket when buying a speaker and trusting a certain reviewer. It's like buying a car. I have test driven cars that got rave reviews on MotorTrend or Car and Driver and knew instantly after 10 minutes that it was not the car for me.

Do the test drive Be prepared to ship something back if you don't like it. Budget some extra money for return shipping and try to compare 2-3+ brands in your room with your ears using your gear.
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post #156 of 169 Old 09-11-2019, 02:10 PM
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We always start from the fundamental fact that none of us is perfect. It's not always easy to see through the fog that obscures when lines are crossed. When we begin to assume that everyone else is crossing lines and no one is to be completely trusted anyway we tend to lose faith in the concept of personal integrity. At that point we can try to verify what's more factual through various cross-referencing or we can blindly place our trust in those who tell us in the most entertaining manner what we most want to hear. We reap what we sow.
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post #157 of 169 Old 09-11-2019, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joentell View Post
You and Steve make it sound as if anyone who makes a living doing something is not to be trusted. This makes me laugh because that's as if every employee of a company automatically loses all integrity the moment they get their paycheck. You know, that true integrity is about maintaining that integrity despite the circumstances right?

Are either of you two employed or have ever been employed? Did you lose all integrity?

I haven't worked for anyone in 20 years. I've run my own businesses which means I can say no to whoever I want also. I've said no to many individuals and companies despite offers with lots of zeros. Money isn't the top priority. Having fun, sticking to my core values and beliefs and doing something I think is important Trump's making money. If it follows me, I'm not going to turn it away though.

I don't see you guys offering to pay for my family's food and I don't expect it. Until then, I will continue earning an honest living. Thanks. I wish everything were free, but the world doesn't work that way.
i don't know how to even respond to this(unwarranted) personal attack... i didn't have a bone to pick with you, i still don't , my issue is with the (mindless) consumer that gets fooled by all the snake oil being peddled on youtube and other (un) social media.. including btw ,avs, ... that being said :1. iv'e watched your video's and enjoy them..
2 . you have now lost me as a viewer , due to your post...
3. i don't begrudge you making a living any way you see fit...my post wasn't about you...
4. my work or personal history isn't any of your business.. keep your lips off it...
5 peace

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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post #158 of 169 Old 09-11-2019, 07:31 PM
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Disagree. I follow YouTubers for entertainment and the breadth of opinions they provide. I Trust them like a friend who is totally biased with his love of Bose, but so what? This is not Consumer Reports!
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post #159 of 169 Old 09-12-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
i don't know how to even respond to this(unwarranted) personal attack... i didn't have a bone to pick with you, i still don't , my issue is with the (mindless) consumer that gets fooled by all the snake oil being peddled on youtube and other (un) social media.. including btw ,avs, ... that being said :1. iv'e watched your video's and enjoy them..
2 . you have now lost me as a viewer , due to your post...
3. i don't begrudge you making a living any way you see fit...my post wasn't about you...
4. my work or personal history isn't any of your business.. keep your lips off it...
5 peace
Never heard of the guy but went to his site to see his list of preferred speakers and after 15 minutes of chasing my tale and unable to find such a list, (which you would expect would be easy to find), I gave up.

Maybe it was buried in a YouTube video but I don't bother much with those and if that's how I have to "discover" it then the site is not for me.

Or maybe I simply looked in the wrong place.

Ease of use on a site is a very good thing IMHO.
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post #160 of 169 Old 09-12-2019, 01:08 PM
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Never heard of the guy but went to his site to see his list of preferred speakers and after 15 minutes of chasing my tale and unable to find such a list, (which you would expect would be easy to find), I gave up.

Maybe it was buried in a YouTube video but I don't bother much with those and if that's how I have to "discover" it then the site is not for me.

Or maybe I simply looked in the wrong place.

Ease of use on a site is a very good thing IMHO.
Not too hard, curious, I did the same and found his list:
1. Click on his youtube channel
2. Click on his "About" tab
3. Look down at the bottom where it says "Links" and there's only 6 links, one of them says "Speaker Leaderboard"
4. Clicked on that and here it is: https://padlet.com/joentell/leaderboard
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post #161 of 169 Old 09-12-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 8KCRT View Post
Not too hard, curious, I did the same and found his list:
1. Click on his youtube channel
2. Click on his "About" tab
3. Look down at the bottom where it says "Links" and there's only 6 links, one of them says "Speaker Leaderboard"
4. Clicked on that and here it is: https://padlet.com/joentell/leaderboard
Thanks, operator error then!

Interesting he preferred the Wharfedal Crystals to the Diamond 11.1 even thought the Crystals are floorstander and the Diamonds bookshelves.
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post #162 of 169 Old 09-12-2019, 01:42 PM
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Thanks, operator error then!

Interesting he preferred the Wharfedal Crystals to the Diamond 11.1 even thought the Crystals are floorstander and the Diamonds bookshelves.
I think he's just going by price rather than speaker type. Actually, his list appears legit, but obviously he hasn't listened to 50 speakers, so the list is limited to the few he has compared and this alone is not very helpful for me. If you only listen to one speaker, and you call it the best ever for under $500, well you're not lying but it does nothing for your audience.
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post #163 of 169 Old 09-12-2019, 01:54 PM
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Never heard of the guy but went to his site to see his list of preferred speakers and after 15 minutes of chasing my tale and unable to find such a list, (which you would expect would be easy to find), I gave up.

Maybe it was buried in a YouTube video but I don't bother much with those and if that's how I have to "discover" it then the site is not for me.

Or maybe I simply looked in the wrong place.

Ease of use on a site is a very good thing IMHO.
he is the dictionary description of random youtube "professional" , i watched some of his vids , they were interesting and i still don't have a bone to pick with his choice of jobs , that's a personal thing , my only issue with him is the obvious "star attitude" he's got going on , like i ought to defer to his greatness cause he says so.. he doesn't like my opinion he's welcome to keep it to himself or be civil .. i do , until it's time not to ....

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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post #164 of 169 Old 09-12-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 8KCRT View Post
I think he's just going by price rather than speaker type. Actually, his list appears legit, but obviously he hasn't listened to 50 speakers, so the list is limited to the few he has compared and this alone is not very helpful for me. If you only listen to one speaker, and you call it the best ever for under $500, well you're not lying but it does nothing for your audience.
In his videos he places the speaker on the leaderboard at the end and explains why. In fact, there are several categories and a single speaker does not take all categories.

And I disagree with your example. That absolutely matters for someone with a $500 budget.
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post #165 of 169 Old 09-12-2019, 02:04 PM
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In his videos he places the speaker on the leaderboard at the end and explains why. In fact, there are several categories and a single speaker does not take all categories.

And I disagree with your example. That absolutely matters for someone with a $500 budget.
yep , dude is actually kinda fun to watch.. just way to thin skinned to be in the same conversation with me...

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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Disagree. I follow YouTubers for entertainment and the breadth of opinions they provide. I Trust them like a friend who is totally biased with his love of Bose, but so what? This is not Consumer Reports!
that's your situation , and it works for you .. but are you disagreeing with the idea there are lots of people who can't distinguish fact from opinion ?? if you follow politics at all you will know that's a huge issue.. the "PT Barnum effect" is now in full bloom.. his quote was "there's a sucker born every minute " .. if you don't get it .. you it...
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YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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post #167 of 169 Old 09-21-2019, 01:52 PM
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Sorry if already addressed, but has anyone wondered why every pro review publication raves about golden ear, feeding a loop of internet buzz? But in person i havent talked to a single person who has great things to say about them. A salesman who sells them nearby in their store said they carry them but they arent any thing special, but the review publication circuit universally loves them. One publication in particular seems to have, over the last 5 or so years, included golden ear seemingly in every floorstander review's "competition" section. And the comparisons never end up being a net negative for the couple of speakers mentioned. Its almost as if those mentioned are being spon$ored to be casually mentioned in reviews. It really stuck out how of all speakers, this popular site chose to mention goldenear triton one in every tower review. Sometimes they mentioned definitive tech towers completely out of left field....A guy who owns a store for decades told me today spendor has a substantial marketing budget and then after they bought positive reviews and increased demand they jacked their speaker prices up.
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post #168 of 169 Old 09-21-2019, 01:59 PM
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There ARE discussions that arise when a reviewer finds a piece of gear to be very unsatisfactory or poor. A discussion can be had about whether to continue with the review depending on the situation - e.g. if the manufacturer may be altering the gear soon, or if a deeply negative review could sink the prospects of a very new company...maybe best to give the company time to get it's act together before sinking it. Or if publishing negative reviews is not how they see their remit - e.g. a magazine may not want to bother telling people about gear that sucks, but want to reserve their valuable time and space to getting the word out about gear that is great, separating the wheat from the chaff. That kind of thing.

This happens all the time in many other journalist circles, not limited to our hobby
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post #169 of 169 Old 09-21-2019, 03:25 PM
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It is a sad fact that many reviewers on you tube make money by being paid to do the review.
It is not just audio stuff...it is everything. Flashlights, Guns, furniture....you name it.


It is fun to see the gear you chose being well spoken of online. I trust nothing on you tube.
I trust fanatics and engineers who test equipment...and I trust pro audio gear makers. To an extent.

Pro audio forums are a decent place to look for what works. I like things like published
response curves, spinorama where available, actual specs. I loathe emotional language
and when I hear it in a audio review I buckle up for laughter.



I am horrified by the prices charged by some amplifier makers...the prices are retarded too high.
Heavy duty continuous use high power amps have been in use by broadcasters for many decades now.
Superior performance has never been less expensive or available than it is right now.


I read a review of a 54,000 dollar amp that produced 280 watts per channel. I began laughing out
loud as even in the days of tube gear 1 dollar/watt was a reasonable number.


IE: for 54k I expect 25 kilowatts per channel at low distortion. I know there are people who buy this gear...
and I feel bad for them. But the reviewer loved the overpriced electric heater that also was an audio
amplifier. I don't know how people who sell this hyped crap sleep at night...seriously, it is insane.


My take FWIW.
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