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post #1 of 41 Old 08-09-2019, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Help with speakers

I have a dedicated home theatre room that is about 32' x 14' and I was hoping to get some ideas for speakers for a 7.1.4 system. My budget is about $4000 which does not include the 4 surround speakers which I will buy later. So I'm looking for 2 front speakers, amplifier, centre speaker, subwoofer, and 4 overhead atmos speakers. I have a benq 2050a projector with a 150 inch silverticket screen.



My AV guy has given me 2 options which I can list here: (canadian prices)



Option 1:
Amplifier: Onkyo TX-NR585 - $600
2 (Left + Right) Polk Audio S50 - 700
Center Channel: Polk Audio S35 - 400
Surround: Four 7" round in-ceiling Polk 70-RT - 1200
Sub-Woofers: 1 x Polk Audio HTS10 - 350
TOTAL: 3250



Option 2: ( a bit pricier)
Amplifier: Denon AVR3500h - $800
Front Speakers: 2x KEF Q550 Towers - 1100
Surround Speakers: KEF in-ceiling rectangular - 1380
Center Channel: KEF Q650 - 650
Sub-Woofers: KEF KUBE10 - 600
TOTAL: 4530



Do these packages look good? Or are there speakers out there that are better value compared to these? The one issue I do have is the space for the front speakers. I have about 8.25" between the screen and the side wall, so I know that rules out a bunch of speakers. Is this enough space for a good quality speaker or am I better off switching to an acoustic transparent screen?
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post #2 of 41 Old 08-09-2019, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rio72 View Post
I have about 8.25" between the screen and the side wall, so I know that rules out a bunch of speakers. Is this enough space for a good quality speaker or am I better off switching to an acoustic transparent screen?
Definitely do the AT screen, that way you can put speakers that might not be very pretty but can play very loudly/clearly while not costing nearly as much. For example, 3 of these across your front would normally be ugly as sin but they'll blow your socks off compared to any of the stuff your installer's recommended:
https://www.amazon.ca/800-Watt-Speak...ateway&sr=8-21

If that's too radical for you, look into the NHT speakers sold here at very good prices:
https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=nht&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

Both of the packages your installer gave you are of very poor value.

General rule of thumb is, pay an installer to INSTALL ONLY. Any equipment you buy from an installer is bound to be hideously overpriced, i.e. giving him his cut.

And if you do free standing speakers behind an AT screen, zero need for an installer anyway. Try to use on-wall and wall mounted compact bookshelves for all surrounds and Atmos speakers too.

Lastly, avoid buying subs made by speakers-first companies...like the installer's recs, they are invariably overpriced and underperforming.

In Canada, this is your best bet for an HT sub:
https://www.electronicsforless.ca/sv...ofer-3884.html
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post #3 of 41 Old 08-09-2019, 06:58 PM
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Zorba already pointed you to some good options. I will only say that for HT, you want the best center and subwoofer(s) you can afford (neither of the options you listed qualify there IMO).

Might consider DIY if you are so inclined.
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post #4 of 41 Old 08-09-2019, 07:38 PM
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In your situation I would be snatching up the Polk LSiM series speakers that are currently on sale. The LSiM 705 towers are $400/each after rebate, which I think may be the lowest ever. You'll be hard pressed to get more for less than these Polk tower, center and surround speakers.
https://slickdeals.net/f/13262356-po...src=SiteSearch


For a sub you have over 3500 ft^3 with 8' ceilings. I would look at the HSU VTF-15H mk2, which is on sale now for $1022/shipped.

http://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15hmk2.html


EDIT: Just caught that you look to be in Canada, so this may not apply.
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post #5 of 41 Old 08-09-2019, 08:36 PM
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If you don't go with the acoustically transparent screen, a 150 inch screen will be too wide and won't provide sufficient space between the outside of the speaker and the wall (assumes the screen is on the 14' wall). If the screen is 2.40:1, it's even worse. How are you setting up the room? Multiple rows, risers? Be sure to leave enough room at the back so you are not right up against the back wall, which will eliminate the 7.x.x solution. Also, be sure that the seated ear in any row is not at 1/2 or 3/4 room length (after wall installation).

Is there anything more fun than a new HT? Well, maybe inaugurating it while watching Body Heat ....
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post #6 of 41 Old 08-09-2019, 11:04 PM
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3x JBL 580 towers across the front behind the screen: $1050 https://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/STUDIO+580BK-Z.html

In-Ceilings (Atmos): $500 https://rslspeakers.com/c34e-ceiling-speaker/

You say you will buy surrounds later.

The KEF system is good; it's just more expensive than the JBL and I doubt if it's better.

Don't get either of those subs. Look at getting 2 of these with your savings: $1700 http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15hmk2.html

Edit on the subs: just noticed Canada. Get to a Paradigm dealer for a Defiance X15 subwoofer, or order a PSA V1510 or V1811 as they ship to Canada.

This will kill both option 1 and 2.

Under $4k.
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post #7 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rio72 View Post
I have a dedicated home theatre room that is about 32' x 14' and I was hoping to get some ideas for speakers for a 7.1.4 system. My budget is about $4000 which does not include the 4 surround speakers which I will buy later. So I'm looking for 2 front speakers, amplifier, centre speaker, subwoofer, and 4 overhead atmos speakers. I have a benq 2050a projector with a 150 inch silverticket screen.



My AV guy has given me 2 options which I can list here: (canadian prices)



Option 1:
Amplifier: Onkyo TX-NR585 - $600
2 (Left + Right) Polk Audio S50 - 700
Center Channel: Polk Audio S35 - 400
Surround: Four 7" round in-ceiling Polk 70-RT - 1200
Sub-Woofers: 1 x Polk Audio HTS10 - 350
TOTAL: 3250



Option 2: ( a bit pricier)
Amplifier: Denon AVR3500h - $800
Front Speakers: 2x KEF Q550 Towers - 1100
Surround Speakers: KEF in-ceiling rectangular - 1380
Center Channel: KEF Q650 - 650
Sub-Woofers: KEF KUBE10 - 600
TOTAL: 4530



Do these packages look good? Or are there speakers out there that are better value compared to these? The one issue I do have is the space for the front speakers. I have about 8.25" between the screen and the side wall, so I know that rules out a bunch of speakers. Is this enough space for a good quality speaker or am I better off switching to an acoustic transparent screen?
Your base layer (5.1) is most critical since most of the sound will be coming from there. It is important to get the base layer right before expanding to atmos and whatnot. Your in ceiling channels should not be costing you $1200-1500, that's insane. The Kef package is a good option, but shop around for cheaper surrounds.
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post #8 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rio72 View Post
I have a dedicated home theatre room that is about 32' x 14' and I was hoping to get some ideas for speakers for a 7.1.4 system.
Option 1:
Amplifier: Onkyo TX-NR585 - $600

Option 2: ( a bit pricier)
Amplifier: Denon AVR3500h - $800
You would need to get the Denon 4500 + stereo amp or the Denon 6500 to do 7.1.4.

Or the Onkyo TX-RZ3100.

All twice the price of those you listed.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #9 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rio72 View Post
I have a dedicated home theatre room that is about 32' x 14' and I was hoping to get some ideas for speakers for a 7.1.4 system.

(snip)

Option 1:
Amplifier: Onkyo TX-NR585 - $600
2 (Left + Right) Polk Audio S50 - 700
Center Channel: Polk Audio S35 - 400
Surround: Four 7" round in-ceiling Polk 70-RT - 1200
Sub-Woofers: 1 x Polk Audio HTS10 - 350
TOTAL: 3250



Option 2: ( a bit pricier)
Amplifier: Denon AVR3500h - $800
Front Speakers: 2x KEF Q550 Towers - 1100
Surround Speakers: KEF in-ceiling rectangular - 1380
Center Channel: KEF Q650 - 650
Sub-Woofers: KEF KUBE10 - 600
TOTAL: 4530



Do these packages look good? Or are there speakers out there that are better value compared to these? The one issue I do have is the space for the front speakers. I have about 8.25" between the screen and the side wall, so I know that rules out a bunch of speakers. Is this enough space for a good quality speaker or am I better off switching to an acoustic transparent screen?
Just to reiterate what GajCA posted, both of those receivers are 7 channel only. They cannot process signals for 5.1.4, much less 7.1.4.

The least expensive option would be a 9 channel AVR that processes 11 channels, like a Denon AVR-X3600H (2019 model), AVR-X4500H (2018 model, not to be replaced this year), Onkyo TX-RX830, and others. An external 2 channel amp would be required to run a 7.2.4 Atmos system. One-box 11 channel AVRs, like the Denon AVR-X6500H, are more expensive.

The AVRs are consistent with a 5.1 system, which is all that you list the speakers for. They could go to 5.2.2 Atmos or 7.2 (non-Atmos).
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post #10 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 08:43 PM
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being in canada, you might ant to check out axiom audio. you might do pretty well on b-stock or refurbs. Solid customer support.

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post #11 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Definitely do the AT screen, that way you can put speakers that might not be very pretty but can play very loudly/clearly while not costing nearly as much. For example, 3 of these across your front would normally be ugly as sin but they'll blow your socks off compared to any of the stuff your installer's recommended:
https://www.amazon.ca/800-Watt-Speak...ateway&sr=8-21

If that's too radical for you, look into the NHT speakers sold here at very good prices:
https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=nht&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

Both of the packages your installer gave you are of very poor value.

General rule of thumb is, pay an installer to INSTALL ONLY. Any equipment you buy from an installer is bound to be hideously overpriced, i.e. giving him his cut.

And if you do free standing speakers behind an AT screen, zero need for an installer anyway. Try to use on-wall and wall mounted compact bookshelves for all surrounds and Atmos speakers too.

Lastly, avoid buying subs made by speakers-first companies...like the installer's recs, they are invariably overpriced and underperforming.

In Canada, this is your best bet for an HT sub:
https://www.electronicsforless.ca/sv...ofer-3884.html
Hmm I've only been looking at towers but those Behringers look interesting. They are a good price, but am I sacrificing any sound quality? And I'm assuming that I wouldn't need a centre speaker if I went with 3 of them right?
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post #12 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
In your situation I would be snatching up the Polk LSiM series speakers that are currently on sale. The LSiM 705 towers are $400/each after rebate, which I think may be the lowest ever. You'll be hard pressed to get more for less than these Polk tower, center and surround speakers.
https://slickdeals.net/f/13262356-po...src=SiteSearch


For a sub you have over 3500 ft^3 with 8' ceilings. I would look at the HSU VTF-15H mk2, which is on sale now for $1022/shipped.

http://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15hmk2.html


EDIT: Just caught that you look to be in Canada, so this may not apply.
Unfortunately shipping to Canada is $600, and I can't find a place to buy those in Canada



Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
If you don't go with the acoustically transparent screen, a 150 inch screen will be too wide and won't provide sufficient space between the outside of the speaker and the wall (assumes the screen is on the 14' wall). If the screen is 2.40:1, it's even worse. How are you setting up the room? Multiple rows, risers? Be sure to leave enough room at the back so you are not right up against the back wall, which will eliminate the 7.x.x solution. Also, be sure that the seated ear in any row is not at 1/2 or 3/4 room length (after wall installation).

Is there anything more fun than a new HT? Well, maybe inaugurating it while watching Body Heat ....

Looks like AT screen is my best bet. There will only be one row. Probably just a basic sectional couch.
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post #13 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
3x JBL 580 towers across the front behind the screen: $1050 https://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/STUDIO+580BK-Z.html

In-Ceilings (Atmos): $500 https://rslspeakers.com/c34e-ceiling-speaker/

You say you will buy surrounds later.

The KEF system is good; it's just more expensive than the JBL and I doubt if it's better.

Don't get either of those subs. Look at getting 2 of these with your savings: $1700 http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15hmk2.html

Edit on the subs: just noticed Canada. Get to a Paradigm dealer for a Defiance X15 subwoofer, or order a PSA V1510 or V1811 as they ship to Canada.

This will kill both option 1 and 2.

Under $4k.
I can't seem to find the JBLs in any canadian retailer. The atmos speakers look solid though and I will consider those, as well as the sub.
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post #14 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Your base layer (5.1) is most critical since most of the sound will be coming from there. It is important to get the base layer right before expanding to atmos and whatnot. Your in ceiling channels should not be costing you $1200-1500, that's insane. The Kef package is a good option, but shop around for cheaper surrounds.
So would you say the kef towers are a decent option?
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post #15 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
You would need to get the Denon 4500 + stereo amp or the Denon 6500 to do 7.1.4.

Or the Onkyo TX-RZ3100.

All twice the price of those you listed.
I wonder why my installer recommended those receivers then. Especially since he told me I had a 7.1.4 set up


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
Just to reiterate what GajCA posted, both of those receivers are 7 channel only. They cannot process signals for 5.1.4, much less 7.1.4.

The least expensive option would be a 9 channel AVR that processes 11 channels, like a Denon AVR-X3600H (2019 model), AVR-X4500H (2018 model, not to be replaced this year), Onkyo TX-RX830, and others. An external 2 channel amp would be required to run a 7.2.4 Atmos system. One-box 11 channel AVRs, like the Denon AVR-X6500H, are more expensive.

The AVRs are consistent with a 5.1 system, which is all that you list the speakers for. They could go to 5.2.2 Atmos or 7.2 (non-Atmos).
The Denon x6500h is $3000 so I think a 9 channel AVR with an external 2 channel amp is probably better for me. Is there any downside to this though? Compared to getting an 11 channel AVR.
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post #16 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rio72 View Post
I wonder why my installer recommended those receivers then. Especially since he told me I had a 7.1.4 set up



The Denon x6500h is $3000 so I think a 9 channel AVR with an external 2 channel amp is probably better for me. Is there any downside to this though? Compared to getting an 11 channel AVR.
I hope that it was a communication problem.

What do you intend for the additional 2 base speakers, and the 4 Atmos speakers? They aren't in the quotes.

The main downside to using something like a Denon 4500 with an external stereo amp is, well, two boxes. If your external amp has a 12V trigger, its operation would be transparent (it would come on wit the AVR). Some amps also can power on in the presence of a signal, like most powered subs. That would be an acceptable alternative to the trigger.
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post #17 of 41 Old 08-10-2019, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rio72 View Post
I wonder why my installer recommended those receivers then. Especially since he told me I had a 7.1.4 set up



The Denon x6500h is $3000 so I think a 9 channel AVR with an external 2 channel amp is probably better for me. Is there any downside to this though? Compared to getting an 11 channel AVR.
Why so many channels? A nice 5.1.4 would sound just as good and would save you a lot of money that can be put towards a 2nd sub. You'll need dual subs in a room that size.
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post #18 of 41 Old 08-11-2019, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rio72 View Post
I wonder why my installer recommended those receivers then. Especially since he told me I had a 7.1.4 set up



The Denon x6500h is $3000 so I think a 9 channel AVR with an external 2 channel amp is probably better for me. Is there any downside to this though? Compared to getting an 11 channel AVR.
I'd settle for 5.1.4 as you have only one main couch.

$1600 at Amazon Canada for a Denon 4400.

The Polks would work fine as would the Polk in ceilings; 4 for Atmos.

SVS for a sub.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #19 of 41 Old 08-11-2019, 09:34 AM
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^ prefer HSU or Rythmik for their tighter, more articulate sound compared to SVS, though it looks like options are limited.

Also, really surprised to hear the JBLs are hard to find there. I think next option is to try to get those Polk 705s at the sale prices.
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post #20 of 41 Old 08-11-2019, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
^ prefer HSU or Rythmik for their tighter, more articulate sound compared to SVS, though it looks like options are limited.

Also, really surprised to hear the JBLs are hard to find there. I think next option is to try to get those Polk 705s at the sale prices.
SVS can be bought and delivered in Canada. The import/customs/taxes/delivery fees/currency exchange will AT LEAST double the price of Rhythmic and HSU offerings.
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post #21 of 41 Old 08-11-2019, 10:23 AM
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SVS can be bought and delivered in Canada. The import/customs/taxes/delivery fees/currency exchange will AT LEAST double the price of Rhythmic and HSU offerings.
Right, which is why I mentioned the Defiance X15. And don't pay MSRP since you can talk with a dealer.

SVS is good, too.
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post #22 of 41 Old 08-11-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Right, which is why I mentioned the Defiance X15. And don't pay MSRP since you can talk with a dealer.

SVS is good, too.
Good point, Paradigm Defiance subs are a good option as well in Canada.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #23 of 41 Old 08-11-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rio72 View Post
Hmm I've only been looking at towers but those Behringers look interesting. They are a good price, but am I sacrificing any sound quality? And I'm assuming that I wouldn't need a centre speaker if I went with 3 of them right?
Yes, you'd use the 3rd one as a vertical center...all 3 would have tweeters vertically aligned. Having 3 identical front speakers like that is actually the ideal configuration, much better than having a horizontal center.

For HT you mainly need detail and dynamics, which by all accounts those Behringers deliver in spades...best of all they do not require any sort of beefy amps to sound their best.

Also, the Behringers would allow you to devote more money to your subs---I'd get a pair of the SVS PB1000.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #24 of 41 Old 08-11-2019, 02:10 PM
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I'd go with a receiver that is 11 channels, but only 9 powered. Then, if after you install the 5.x.4, you feel there is something missing, you can accommodate those rear surrounds with an inexpensive two channel amp. The price difference between the 11/9 and 9/9 is not that great, but the difference between 11/11 and 11/9 is.
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It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

Last edited by RayGuy; 08-11-2019 at 02:23 PM.
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post #25 of 41 Old 08-12-2019, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Why so many channels? A nice 5.1.4 would sound just as good and would save you a lot of money that can be put towards a 2nd sub. You'll need dual subs in a room that size.
Yeah that's probably a good idea. I'd like to upgrade to 7.1.4 in the future but I'm not opposed to 5.1.4 for now.



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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
I'd settle for 5.1.4 as you have only one main couch.

$1600 at Amazon Canada for a Denon 4400.

The Polks would work fine as would the Polk in ceilings; 4 for Atmos.

SVS for a sub.
5.1.4 for now it is. The denon 4400 is 1600 and the denon 4500 is 1500. Any big differences between the two?


The SVS subs look good too. Hard to find good subs in canada and the shipping from USA makes them pretty expensive. I can get 2 svs pb1000 for $1279.
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post #26 of 41 Old 08-12-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rio72 View Post
Yeah that's probably a good idea. I'd like to upgrade to 7.1.4 in the future but I'm not opposed to 5.1.4 for now.




5.1.4 for now it is. The denon 4400 is 1600 and the denon 4500 is 1500. Any big differences between the two?


The SVS subs look good too. Hard to find good subs in canada and the shipping from USA makes them pretty expensive. I can get 2 svs pb1000 for $1279.
Get the 4500 as it is the newer version.
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Geoff A. J., California
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post #27 of 41 Old 08-12-2019, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Right, which is why I mentioned the Defiance X15. And don't pay MSRP since you can talk with a dealer.

SVS is good, too.
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Good point, Paradigm Defiance subs are a good option as well in Canada.

Checked a few shops and the defiance x15 is 1900 here. Instead I can get 2 svs pb-1000's for $1279.
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post #28 of 41 Old 08-12-2019, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Yes, you'd use the 3rd one as a vertical center...all 3 would have tweeters vertically aligned. Having 3 identical front speakers like that is actually the ideal configuration, much better than having a horizontal center.

For HT you mainly need detail and dynamics, which by all accounts those Behringers deliver in spades...best of all they do not require any sort of beefy amps to sound their best.

Also, the Behringers would allow you to devote more money to your subs---I'd get a pair of the SVS PB1000.
Leaning towards these for my front speakers for now. If the sound is similar to towers, it's definitely worth it for the cost savings.
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post #29 of 41 Old 08-12-2019, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rio72 View Post
Yeah that's probably a good idea. I'd like to upgrade to 7.1.4 in the future but I'm not opposed to 5.1.4 for now.




5.1.4 for now it is. The denon 4400 is 1600 and the denon 4500 is 1500. Any big differences between the two?


The SVS subs look good too. Hard to find good subs in canada and the shipping from USA makes them pretty expensive. I can get 2 svs pb1000 for $1279.
The 4500 is a 2018 model, but will not be replaced this year. The 4400 is from 2017, and should not be more expensive than the 4500. Differences: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post56087556 There may be additional differences; I don't recall whether the 4400 supports DTS Virtual X. I believe that the 4500 will (firmware update). It's of limited value, though.

If you could get an AVR-X3600H for less than a 4500, it'd be worth a look. It's a 2019 model, with specs similar to a 4500. (The 3600 is very different from the 2018 AVR-X3500H.) If they were the same price, I'd buy the 4500, but the US list on the 3600 is considerably less. (They may be about the same on the street, though.)
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post #30 of 41 Old 08-12-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
The 4500 is a 2018 model, but will not be replaced this year. The 4400 is from 2017, and should not be more expensive than the 4500. Differences: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post56087556 There may be additional differences; I don't recall whether the 4400 supports DTS Virtual X. I believe that the 4500 will (firmware update). It's of limited value, though.

If you could get an AVR-X3600H for less than a 4500, it'd be worth a look. It's a 2019 model, with specs similar to a 4500. (The 3600 is very different from the 2018 AVR-X3500H.) If they were the same price, I'd buy the 4500, but the US list on the 3600 is considerably less. (They may be about the same on the street, though.)
I'd forgotten that the 3600 is virtually identical now in every regard to the 4500 other than a meaningless 20 watts.

Here in the US the 3600 is $500 cheaper at the moment.

Could be true in Canada.

Wonder what the 4600 when it is released will have up its sleeve?

Geoff A. J., California
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