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post #1 of 91 Old 08-11-2019, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Exclamation Sub Calibration Question please

Hi, First I would like to thank everyone in this forum for helping me to understand a lot of things regarding Home theatre and how it works, I have previous thread month and half ago maybe someone will remember me, anyway i just have two questions to wrap up everything and understand my system.

I have ben told that when I calibrate the system through AccuEQ i put the subwoofer volume (the circle one in front side of the sub) at 12’clock and run the calibration which i did after placing it in a new place in the front of the room 7m from my listing area because previous was 5m away placed near cabinet and it shakes. The question is after the calibration it set the sub db at -6 and after watching few shows and movies the room vibrates hard like its +6 not -6 so i went to the sub and set at 10’clock and now everything is fine BUT i have been told after calibration at 12’clock you can adjust the bass through the menu ONLY not going to the sub volume or i must re-calibration so do i need to now after lowering it to 10’clock ? its still in the same place.

Second question please from what i understand from crossover and bass management i set my full band at 80hz, my question is the higher i go 100,120hz the more bass i’ll be getting am i right ? If yes then the more bass comes from where ? the sub itself or from the front full band speakers ?



Thanks all much appreciated these my two last things i need to understand.
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post #2 of 91 Old 08-11-2019, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M9ADE3 View Post
Second question please from what i understand from crossover and bass management i set my full band at 80hz, my question is the higher i go 100,120hz the more bass i’ll be getting am i right ? If yes then the more bass comes from where ? the sub itself or from the front full band speakers ?
The PRIMARY reason for setting LFE Crossover Frequency to say 80, 100, 120 or 200 Hz has to do with minimizing DISTORTION, more than simply Volume, cuz most L/R Speakers put out plenty of power at even 60-Hz....but it is NOT low Distortion power.

It would help if mfr's or Speaker Reviewers provided Charts showing Distortion vs Frequency at one or more Power Levels....but THAT is a thing of the past. Nonetheless, my rule of thumb is that Distortion from L/R Speakers at the -3 dB Roll-Off Point needs to be ATTENUATED. This is done by choosing the L/R LFE Crossover Frequency to be TWICE the -3 dB Roll-Off Frequency. Hence for a "typical" Roll-Off Freq Spec Value of say 40-Hz, the L/R LFE Crossover "should" be 80-Hz. Small Bookshelf Speakers (with smallish 5.25-in Woofer) may have a Roll-Off Freq of only 60-Hz, so you would chose LFE Crossover Freq of 120-Hz....or higher, if it uses a Tiny Enclosure, as is common for some Satellite Speakers.

Unfortunately, mfr specs are rarely clear about whether their Low-Freq Roll-Off spec value is at -3 dB....or -6 dB....or perhaps even -10 dB....so you might want to use my alternative "rule-of-thumb": select 80-Hz if Speaker is 10-in or larger, select 100-Hz if 8 to 6-in and 120-Hz or 200-Hz if even smaller Woofer. Bear in mind that there is very little benefit in selecting a lower Crossover Freq....and LOTS of benefit in selecting a HIGHER Crossover Freq.....letting the Sub-Woofer pump out copious amounts of LOW Distortion Bass on the higher Freqs that it has NO PROBLEM doing....indeed it likely won't suffer ill effects even if you select a 200-Hz Crossover Freq.

Ideally, you "should" be able to set the LFE Crossover Freq separately for the Satellite Speakers, using the same rule described above. However, some equipment only have a "one-size-fits-all" selection, in which you should try setting for L/R as well as the Satellites....theoretically, the higher Freq should be "better".

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post #3 of 91 Old 08-11-2019, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
The PRIMARY reason for setting LFE Crossover Frequency to say 80, 100, 120 or 200 Hz has to do with minimizing DISTORTION, more than simply Volume, cuz most L/R Speakers put out plenty of power at even 60-Hz....but it is NOT low Distortion power.

It would help if mfr's or Speaker Reviewers provided Charts showing Distortion vs Frequency at one or more Power Levels....but THAT is a thing of the past. Nonetheless, my rule of thumb is that Distortion from L/R Speakers at the -3 dB Roll-Off Point needs to be ATTENUATED. This is done by choosing the L/R LFE Crossover Frequency to be TWICE the -3 dB Roll-Off Frequency. Hence for a "typical" Roll-Off Freq Spec Value of say 40-Hz, the L/R LFE Crossover "should" be 80-Hz. Small Bookshelf Speakers (with smallish 5.25-in Woofer) may have a Roll-Off Freq of only 60-Hz, so you would chose LFE Crossover Freq of 120-Hz....or higher, if it uses a Tiny Enclosure, as is common for some Satellite Speakers.

Unfortunately, mfr specs are rarely clear about whether their Low-Freq Roll-Off spec value is at -3 dB....or -6 dB....or perhaps even -10 dB....so you might want to use my alternative "rule-of-thumb": select 80-Hz if Speaker is 10-in or larger, select 100-Hz if 8 to 6-in and 120-Hz or 200-Hz if even smaller Woofer. Bear in mind that there is very little benefit in selecting a lower Crossover Freq....and LOTS of benefit in selecting a HIGHER Crossover Freq.....letting the Sub-Woofer pump out copious amounts of LOW Distortion Bass on the higher Freqs that it has NO PROBLEM doing....indeed it likely won't suffer ill effects even if you select a 200-Hz Crossover Freq.

Ideally, you "should" be able to set the LFE Crossover Freq separately for the Satellite Speakers, using the same rule described above. However, some equipment only have a "one-size-fits-all" selection, in which you should try setting for L/R as well as the Satellites....theoretically, the higher Freq should be "better".
first thanks for the quick response, so regarding the minimizing DISTORTION got it. But to be honest to answer your question "rule-of-thumb" about my speakers if is 10-in or larger i don't know how to know that can help please here is mine :

fronts: https://www.jamo.com/products/s606

Satellite: https://www.jamo.com/products/c60sur

Bookshelf https://www.jamo.com/products/s602#specs

And if you say that if at 80hz they roll of at 40hz then the bookshelf and the other should be set at 160hz ?

and regarding your theory there there are some don't agree with you not me hahaha but i read a lot the lower are better.

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post #4 of 91 Old 08-11-2019, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Regarding the crossover ( i just learned else where that after calibration you only go higher hz not lower) then im in a trouble last calibration results:
Fronts: 120hz ( keep in mind they’re full bands)
Center: 100hz
Surround: 120hz ( this number never changed after doing more than 17 calibrations i dont know why)
Surround back: 50hz i know its weird and below the speaker Frequency Response i think because the calibration was placed just meter away from them there where my listing area under the surrounds back ( i know its crazy to sit there with 7.1 but its my only choice )

I lowered the fronts to 100hz for more bass (if am right about my question more hz = more bass?) and the Center to 80hz and the surround back to 80hz from (50hz) because its Frequency Response 80-20.000 same specifications for the surrounds and the center only fronts 42hz-20.000hz. So i kept only the surrounds same at 120hz after calibration. I'm running 7.1 system
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post #5 of 91 Old 08-11-2019, 03:56 PM
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The crossover for your front towers should be 60-80Hz, the rest 100-150Hz. Try them with both options and stick with the one that sounds best.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

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post #6 of 91 Old 08-11-2019, 03:59 PM
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Jamo S606 specs state that Woofer is 8-in with -3 dB Roll-Off Freq of 42-Hz, so LFE Crossover Freq of 80-Hz would be appropriate. S602 Bookshelf Woofer is a (very small) 4-in with Roll-Off of 80-Hz, so Crossover of about 160-Hz (or higher) would be appropriate. And C60sur Woofer is 6-in with Roll-Off of 80-Hz, so Crossover of about 160-Hz (or higher) would be appropriate.

When you lower the LFE Crossover Frequency, the L/R Speakers can be used to provide "more bass"....although with increased levels of Distortion. This works best with 12-in or larger Woofers which can actually HELP a Sub-Woofer....and not so much with wimpy 8-in Woofers.

However, a better way to get "more bass" is to pay more attention to the Room Frequency Response both BEFORE and AFTER applying Room Correction.....and perhaps adding a second Sub-Woofer to fill-in the Nulls resulting from the first Sub-Woofer (which is why they should NOT be placed in Symmetric Locations). Without Room Correction, some Bass Freqs will be Boosted...and others significantly reduced. You should try different locations for the Sub-Woofer(s). Corner Locations will strongly excite the Primary Room Mode(s), but will also result in very deep NULLS. Placing about 1/4 to 1/3 away from a wall is better, likely yielding a smoother Room Frequency Response, before final Room Equalization:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post54537820

Also be aware that the Room Equalization capability in many older AVRs was NOT adequate to the task (best are Dirac Live and Audyssey MultEQ XT, with MultEQ having lower filter resolution....but Audyssey does NOT apply Bass Boost below Sub-Woofer's DETECTED -3db Roll-Off Freq...which is affected by Room Response). Which is why miniDSP or Manual 1/3-Octave Band Equalizers are sometimes recommended to be inserted on Input to S-W(s).

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post #7 of 91 Old 08-11-2019, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Jamo S606 specs state that Woofer is 8-in with -3 dB Roll-Off Freq of 42-Hz, so LFE Crossover Freq of 80-Hz would be appropriate. S602 Bookshelf Woofer is a (very small) 4-in with Roll-Off of 80-Hz, so Crossover of about 160-Hz (or higher) would be appropriate. And C60sur Woofer is 6-in with Roll-Off of 80-Hz, so Crossover of about 160-Hz (or higher) would be appropriate.

When you lower the LFE Crossover Frequency, the L/R Speakers can be used to provide "more bass"....although with increased levels of Distortion. This works best with 12-in or larger Woofers which can actually HELP a Sub-Woofer....and not so much with wimpy 8-in Woofers.
This really just depends on the capability of the system and your measured room response. I would avoid making general rules based on woofer size.

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However, a better way to get "more bass" is to pay more attention to the Room Frequency Response both BEFORE and AFTER applying Room Correction.....and adding a second Sub-Woofer to fill-in the Nulls resulting from the first Sub-Woofer (which is why they should NOT be placed in Symmetric Locations).
Actually, symmetrical locations are ideal in common rectangular rooms. Middle of front wall and middle of rear wall, or middle of side walls, being prime locations.

Here is middle of front and rear wall placement, then Audyssey:
Click image for larger version

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Each sub on its own has a very un-flat response. Together, they are smooth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Also be aware that the Room Equalization capability in many older AVRs was NOT adequate to the task (best are Dirac Live and Audyssey MultEQ XT, with MultEQ having lower filter resolution....but Audyssey does NOT apply Bass Boost below speaker's detected -3db Roll-Off Freq). Which is why miniDSP or Manual 1/3-Octave Band Equalizers are sometimes recommended.
Bass is not boosted below the F3 point because it can damage a speaker. Do NOT attempt more boost with an equalizer. Let the speaker roll off naturally.

XT32 is the best flavor of Audyssey and is quite a bit better for bass frequencies than lower versions.

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post #8 of 91 Old 08-11-2019, 04:32 PM
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OTOH, Sealed Box Enclosures for Sub-Woofer provide tighter Bass Transients....but NEED to be used with a BASS BOOST either in the S-W's Built-In Amplifier....or externally in the AVR....or Equalizer. Sealed Box Speaker Excursion is ALSO greatly reduced below -3 dB Roll-Off Freq compared to Bass-Reflex Enclosure....for example see fol. comparison for a "typical" 12-in Speaker. BASS BOOST on a Sealed Box Enclosure can be used to flatten the response to well below even the Bass Reflex's -3 dB Freq....with SAME or SMALLER Max Cone Excursion:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/fil...akercomparison

Way back in 1961, A.N. Thiele presented a paper showing how a Loudspeaker can be modeled as a Lossy Filter [1-pole if Sealed, 2-pole if Bass-Reflex]. And showed how [then new] computerized Filter Calculation Programs could be used to design EXTERNAL Filters to add more poles, turning the "System" that had extended low frequency response (well below -3 dB of Woofer in Box) with whatever db "ripple" the designer stipulated. See pg 187 for a LIST of the various "Alignments":
http://www.diyaudioprojects.com/Tech...xes-Part-I.pdf
http://www.diyaudioprojects.com/Tech...es-Part-II.pdf
http://www.diyaudioprojects.com/Technical [includes Richard Small Speaker Analysis papers]

As I recall, Electrovoice [Type 4A?] was one of the first Speakers to employ a BASS BOOST network to provide a [4th Order?] "Chebychev" alignment. I didn't get interested until the early-70's when I subscribed to AES Journal and saw the Richard Small Articles (and found Thiele's articles in Library). First thing I did was to built a BASS BOOST network into my PAT-4 Preamp to extend response of my Altec VOTT 15-in Speakers (which came as Over-Damped QB3 Alignment with -3 dB of about 40+ Hz).....much later I repurposed them as my S-W Pair, plugged up the Vents and used a Manual 1/3-Octave Equalizer so they have -3 dB of about 25-Hz in my Living Room. Some additional Speakers with and w/o Bass Boost:
https://www.audioxpress.com/files/attachment/2644

However, since the Room Response dominates, Thiele's Anechoic Chamber exercises are interesting, but simply adjusting the settings on a 1/3-Octave Band Equalizer....or use a computer to calculate the Equalizer Response that is needed to UNDO what the Room is doing (e.g. Dirac Live and MultiEQ) is what we do in practice.

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post #9 of 91 Old 08-11-2019, 04:36 PM
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Right, but he has bass reflex speakers.

He also hasn't stated what subwoofer he is using.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
The crossover for your front towers should be 60-80Hz, the rest 100-150Hz. Try them with both options and stick with the one that sounds best.
Mostly agree...

I would set set your fronts at 80hz for movies. I know the response says 42hz but THX recommends 80hz and if you set your subs to 110hz there will be some overlap ( in a good way ).

BUt the caveat is a big one.... set them to your liking. Now you may need to put a few hours into defining what exactly YOUR LIKING is but isn't that part of the fun? I can tell you what I would "start" off at but I would then adjust to what sounds the best to you. At the end of the day what you think sounds better is all that matters. When I had my Klipsch RF7II's I crossed them at 40hz (specs say 30hz response) instead of 80hz because thats what I liked.... now that I have in wall THX speakers I run tham at 80hz. Start a little higher than the frequency response claims are and try to dial in from there.

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post #11 of 91 Old 08-11-2019, 10:40 PM
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I agree with some of the above, especially with go with what you like. After running calibration with an Onkyo TX-NR777 with klipsch rp8000f fronts, rp504c center, Bose 301 rear/sides(8" woofers), a polk 10 sub next to fronts, and 2 JL 12" sealed subs right behind the couch (basically rear center of room), it set all my fronts to 40hz and sides to 50hz. It sounds wonderful. If I try and adjust the crossovers to be higher, it completely messes up the calibration and starts to have holes in bass and the sound becomes more thin and harsh. Everyone's room is different and can have a huge impact on calibrations. My personal preference is to have all ear level speakers (L/C/R,SL/SR,RL,RR) as close as possible to the same crossover settings. Anything drastically different can possibly do more harm than good when it comes to smooth transitions between channels, IMO. Sometimes that's hard to avoid if you have small speakers combined with very large ones.

Of course, your experience may vary. Good luck!
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The crossover for your front towers should be 60-80Hz, the rest 100-150Hz. Try them with both options and stick with the one that sounds best.
I just ran the Calibration 4 times to get the sub at 0db instead of -6(per last calibration) so here is the result :




the auto calibration determined that my speakers have a roll off of 120Hz. I shouldn't therefore manually set their associated crossover below these settings. You should not drop the crossover below what calibration has detected.

Believe it or not all 4 times i got the same results not even 10hz less or more !! i think the trick is because i took out all the seats pillows out of the room 12 medium size pillows. So at the 4th time i got the sub at 0db exactly thank god, is't okay to change some of the speakers db level after calibration or also i cannot ? and now the sub volume after lowering it each calibration now its at maybe 9-10'clock is that okay to low? here is a picture :



Regarding the crossover im not changing anything i just rised the surround back from 60 to 120hz
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post #13 of 91 Old 08-12-2019, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Jamo S606 specs state that Woofer is 8-in with -3 dB Roll-Off Freq of 42-Hz, so LFE Crossover Freq of 80-Hz would be appropriate. S602 Bookshelf Woofer is a (very small) 4-in with Roll-Off of 80-Hz, so Crossover of about 160-Hz (or higher) would be appropriate. And C60sur Woofer is 6-in with Roll-Off of 80-Hz, so Crossover of about 160-Hz (or higher) would be appropriate.

When you lower the LFE Crossover Frequency, the L/R Speakers can be used to provide "more bass"....although with increased levels of Distortion. This works best with 12-in or larger Woofers which can actually HELP a Sub-Woofer....and not so much with wimpy 8-in Woofers.

However, a better way to get "more bass" is to pay more attention to the Room Frequency Response both BEFORE and AFTER applying Room Correction.....and perhaps adding a second Sub-Woofer to fill-in the Nulls resulting from the first Sub-Woofer (which is why they should NOT be placed in Symmetric Locations). Without Room Correction, some Bass Freqs will be Boosted...and others significantly reduced. You should try different locations for the Sub-Woofer(s). Corner Locations will strongly excite the Primary Room Mode(s), but will also result in very deep NULLS. Placing about 1/4 to 1/3 away from a wall is better, likely yielding a smoother Room Frequency Response, before final Room Equalization:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post54537820

Also be aware that the Room Equalization capability in many older AVRs was NOT adequate to the task (best are Dirac Live and Audyssey MultEQ XT, with MultEQ having lower filter resolution....but Audyssey does NOT apply Bass Boost below Sub-Woofer's DETECTED -3db Roll-Off Freq...which is affected by Room Response). Which is why miniDSP or Manual 1/3-Octave Band Equalizers are sometimes recommended to be inserted on Input to S-W(s).
I would like to try these low settings but the calibration sets them at higher hz check my previous post and if i lowered them below this would be setting them at a frequency lower than the receiver measured the roll off the speakers involved. You'd effectively be creating a hole in the frequency range that neither the passive speakers or the sub would be competently portraying.
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Right, but he has bass reflex speakers.

He also hasn't stated what subwoofer he is using.
https://www.jamo.com/products/sub360

https://www.eu.onkyo.com/en/products...5e-137838.html
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Originally Posted by xplizit View Post
I agree with some of the above, especially with go with what you like. After running calibration with an Onkyo TX-NR777 with klipsch rp8000f fronts, rp504c center, Bose 301 rear/sides(8" woofers), a polk 10 sub next to fronts, and 2 JL 12" sealed subs right behind the couch (basically rear center of room), it set all my fronts to 40hz and sides to 50hz. It sounds wonderful. If I try and adjust the crossovers to be higher, it completely messes up the calibration and starts to have holes in bass and the sound becomes more thin and harsh. Everyone's room is different and can have a huge impact on calibrations. My personal preference is to have all ear level speakers (L/C/R,SL/SR,RL,RR) as close as possible to the same crossover settings. Anything drastically different can possibly do more harm than good when it comes to smooth transitions between channels, IMO. Sometimes that's hard to avoid if you have small speakers combined with very large ones.

Of course, your experience may vary. Good luck!
I have the ****ty AccuEQ, im wondering do you guys lower the lfe for the speakers below what calibration detected ? i learned that this should never be done only go higher.
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I have the ****ty AccuEQ, im wondering do you guys lower the lfe for the speakers below what calibration detected ? i learned that this should never be done only go higher.
I set the sub gains at reference level with a meter first and then run calibration.
The sub level that the reciever sets is a bit strange. It always sets it incredibly loud for sources like Atmos, DD, DTS, ect. If I change to a stereo source, the sub level is perfectly set with calibration settings.
The reciever sets sub level at +7.5.
It has to be lowered to -3 to balance with Multichannel sources in my situation. Not sure why Onkyo recievers do this. Lowering the sub gain on receiver is way to go. Leave the sub gain knobs alone after calibration, IMO.
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post #17 of 91 Old 08-12-2019, 07:45 PM
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Thanks. Do not boost the part of the curve below the -3 dB rolloff of your speakers or sub.

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post #18 of 91 Old 08-12-2019, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. Do not boost the part of the curve below the -3 dB rolloff of your speakers or sub.
please would you explain bit more im not that expert i couldn't understand that what is the curve ? you mean the level calibration in menu where you adjust the speakers db levels ?
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post #19 of 91 Old 08-12-2019, 07:59 PM
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please would you explain bit more im not that expert i couldn't understand that what is the curve ? you mean the level calibration in menu where you adjust the speakers db levels ?
Since you don't have a curve editor, I don't think you'll be able to, so I wouldn't worry about it. My post was mostly a rebuttal to hollands above.

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Seems to me that turning the room tuning off might be the best solution for you. Just set the crossover points and distances yourself.

Just write down what you currently have, turn off the tuning app, then set everything manually, fixing the oddball items yourself.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

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post #21 of 91 Old 08-12-2019, 08:49 PM
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I have ben told that when I calibrate the system through AccuEQ i put the subwoofer volume (the circle one in front side of the sub) at 12’clock and run the calibration which i did after placing it in a new place in the front of the room 7m from my listing area because previous was 5m away placed near cabinet and it shakes. The question is after the calibration it set the sub db at -6 and after watching few shows and movies the room vibrates hard like its +6 not -6 so i went to the sub and set at 10’clock and now everything is fine BUT i have been told after calibration at 12’clock you can adjust the bass through the menu ONLY not going to the sub volume or i must re-calibration so do i need to now after lowering it to 10’clock ? its still in the same place.
The relative settings of the subwoofer volume level and the receiver's subwoofer trim setting are inter-related and the relationship is an inverse one, where raising one will lower the other. There are many different combinations of subwoofer volume setting and receiver trim setting that will yield a proper calibration level, so you're not limited to just setting the sub to 12 o'clock and letting the receiver do it's thing. I prefer to set the subwoofer volume to a point that yields a subwoofer trim setting in the receiver of about -8 to -10, AFTER calibration. This provides significant headroom to allow for raising the subwoofer trim should I find that I prefer that. Also some subwoofers with Auto-On circuits will be non-responsive if the input signal is too low. In that case, raising the subwoofer trim setting closer to 0 will be more appropriate. It may take some experimentation to find the right combination of subwoofer volume setting and receiver trim setting to optimize both of these considerations.

Most people find it easier, more repeatable and more easily reversible to change the receiver's subwoofer trim setting than to change the level on the sub itself. You can do it either way, but if you decide to go back to your original settings, that's usually much easier, and more repeatable to do through the receiver.

When you changed the subwoofer position in the room, you changed the modal interaction of the sub with the room. Your description of the 7m position causing the room to vibrate hard, sounds like you've excited a room mode that is causing excessive energy at a specific frequency, and for that energy to remain in the room to long. Turning the entire bandwidth of the sub down will improve that one room mode, but at the expense of the rest of the bandwidth of the subwoofer, which will also be turned down along with the room mode. A better solution is to try to find a better position for the subwoofer that doesn't excite so much excessive energy at a single room mode. If you don't have any measuring equipment other than the Onkyo AccuEQ, then the best technique to use is called the "sub crawl".


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Originally Posted by M9ADE3 View Post
Second question please from what i understand from crossover and bass management i set my full band at 80hz, my question is the higher i go 100,120hz the more bass i’ll be getting am i right ? If yes then the more bass comes from where ? the sub itself or from the front full band speakers ?
You will not necessarily get "more bass" by using a higher crossover. When you set a crossover you re-direct the bass that would have gone to the speaker and send it to the subwoofer. This process doesn't "add" any bass to either the subwoofer or the speaker. It just determines which one plays back the bass. Since the subwoofer is the speaker you bought to reproduce the bass, and because it is designed specifically for the purpose of reproducing bass, it makes sense to send as much bass as possible to the subwoofer, because the subwoofer, theoretically, should be the best speaker to reproduce it. Also, one can then get "more bass" by simply raising the level of the subwoofer above the calibrated level.

There is, however, a limit to this. At a point around 80 Hz and above, many people can start to hear the subwoofer as a point source. They may start to hear the deepest parts of male voices, and other low to mid bass content, as coming from the subwoofer instead of the speakers. Since the sub is often not located where the sounds are supposed to originate, (on the screen), it becomes unnatural and distracting to hear these sounds come from the direction of the sub. This phenomenon is known as subwoofer "localization." Limiting the subwoofer to 80 Hz eliminates, (or at least greatly reduces), the possibility of localization.

Some people don't notice bass localization and they can use higher crossover frequencies because of that. Try experimenting with higher crossover frequencies and see whether you can localize the bass to the subwoofer. Once you've found the point where localization becomes a problem, reduce the crossover until you're below that point.

Good luck.

Craig


Edit: Another question that came up in this thread is whether one can lower the crossover points of the speakers below the AccuEQ system settings. In general, this is not advised. AccuEq looks for the F3 or LF roll-off point of the speakers. It sets the crossovers above this point. Lowering the crossovers will send content to the speakers that is below their F3. Most speakers will simply do nothing with that content. However, that content will, for all intents and purposes be lost as it will not be reproduced by the speakers or by the sub. In the worst case scenario, a speaker will try produce output below it's F3 and, if the levels are high enough, the speaker can be damaged. When a ported speaker tries to reproduce content below the tune point of the ports, the driver becomes unloaded and will generate massive amounts of uncontrolled excursion, with excessive distortion and driver damage.
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Seems to me that turning the room tuning off might be the best solution for you. Just set the crossover points and distances yourself.

Just wright down what you currently have, turn off the tuning app, then set everything manually, fixing the oddball items yourself.
you mean by turning the tuning off ist the "AccuEQ room calibration" on the menu it has option off or on all channel or on except L&R.

So far with these crossover settings i noticed more sound coming from the front from my seating are and before i set my volume at 70 when watching my shows now its way loud after this calibration 65 seems good so far and increased the bass to +5 much better now.
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post #23 of 91 Old 08-12-2019, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by M9ADE3 View Post
you mean by turning the tuning off ist the "AccuEQ room calibration" on the menu it has option off or on all channel or on except L&R.

So far with these crossover settings i noticed more sound coming from the front from my seating are and before i set my volume at 70 when watching my shows now its way loud after this calibration 65 seems good so far and increased the bass to +5 much better now.
Yes, turning off "AccuEQ room calibration". Use a dB meter to set levels (download to your phone, free on the web).

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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The relative settings of the subwoofer volume level and the receiver's subwoofer trim setting are inter-related and the relationship is an inverse one, where raising one will lower the other. There are many different combinations of subwoofer volume setting and receiver trim setting that will yield a proper calibration level, so you're not limited to just setting the sub to 12 o'clock and letting the receiver do it's thing. I prefer to set the subwoofer volume to a point that yields a subwoofer trim setting in the receiver of about -8 to -10, AFTER calibration. This provides significant headroom to allow for raising the subwoofer trim should I find that I prefer that. Also some subwoofers with Auto-On circuits will be non-responsive if the input signal is too low. In that case, raising the subwoofer trim setting closer to 0 will be more appropriate. It may take some experimentation to find the right combination of subwoofer volume setting and receiver trim setting to optimize both of these considerations.

I have been told and read in different threads that best thing is to keep lowering the sub volume until reaching 0
which so far after my last calibration i watched two movies the bass is low i higher the sub from menu to +5 and it seems fine and smoothly better than before were the calibration sat them at -6db even that time i higher it to +1 but it there was a lot of waves i can feel and vibration.

Most people find it easier, more repeatable and more easily reversible to change the receiver's subwoofer trim setting than to change the level on the sub itself. You can do it either way, but if you decide to go back to your original settings, that's usually much easier, and more repeatable to do through the receiver.

But you can't change the level on the sub itself that will require re-calibration but from the amp menu does not require that what i understood.

When you changed the subwoofer position in the room, you changed the modal interaction of the sub with the room. Your description of the 7m position causing the room to vibrate hard, sounds like you've excited a room mode that is causing excessive energy at a specific frequency, and for that energy to remain in the room to long. Turning the entire bandwidth of the sub down will improve that one room mode, but at the expense of the rest of the bandwidth of the subwoofer, which will also be turned down along with the room mode. A better solution is to try to find a better position for the subwoofer that doesn't excite so much excessive energy at a single room mode. If you don't have any measuring equipment other than the Onkyo AccuEQ, then the best technique to use is called the "sub crawl".

Yeah that was before the new calibration now the shaking are 80% less and acceptable.

You will not necessarily get "more bass" by using a higher crossover. When you set a crossover you re-direct the bass that would have gone to the speaker and send it to the subwoofer. This process doesn't "add" any bass to either the subwoofer or the speaker. It just determines which one plays back the bass. Since the subwoofer is the speaker you bought to reproduce the bass, and because it is designed specifically for the purpose of reproducing bass, it makes sense to send as much bass as possible to the subwoofer, because the subwoofer, theoretically, should be the best speaker to reproduce it. Also, one can then get "more bass" by simply raising the level of the subwoofer above the calibrated level.

There is, however, a limit to this. At a point around 80 Hz and above, many people can start to hear the subwoofer as a point source. They may start to hear the deepest parts of male voices, and other low to mid bass content, as coming from the subwoofer instead of the speakers. Since the sub is often not located where the sounds are supposed to originate, (on the screen), it becomes unnatural and distracting to hear these sounds come from the direction of the sub. This phenomenon is known as subwoofer "localization." Limiting the subwoofer to 80 Hz eliminates, (or at least greatly reduces), the possibility of localization.

Sorry for this question but how limiting the subwoofer at 80hz ? from the cut off knob back of the sub ? or by setting the speakers to 80hz ?

Some people don't notice bass localization and they can use higher crossover frequencies because of that. Try experimenting with higher crossover frequencies and see whether you can localize the bass to the subwoofer. Once you've found the point where localization becomes a problem, reduce the crossover until you're below that point.

Good luck.


Craig
And thanks for all this helpful tips

Last edited by M9ADE3; 08-12-2019 at 09:31 PM.
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post #25 of 91 Old 08-12-2019, 09:44 PM
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Sorry for this question but how limiting the subwoofer at 80hz ? from the cut off knob back of the sub ? or by setting the speakers to 80hz ?


Limiting the sub to 80 Hz and below is accomplished by setting the receiver's Bass Management crossover to 80 Hz. The crossover is actually 2 filters, a "Low Pass Filter" (LPF) on the subwoofer and a "High Pass Filter" (HPF) on the speakers. When the crossover is set to 80 Hz, the LPF allows all the content below 80 Hz to "pass" to the sub and filters out, (cuts), all the content above 80 Hz. The HPF allows all the content above 80 Hz to "pass" to the speakers and filters out/cuts all the content below 80 Hz.



The cutoff knob on the back of the sub is just an LPF with no associated HPF. Most people get that filter out of the way by just setting it as high as it can be set, letting the receiver's filters do all the Bass Management. Another way to reduce localization is to "cascade" the LPF's by setting the LPF on the sub to the same frequency as the crossover in the receiver. However, depending on the configurations of the filters, this can cause some phase issues that are worse than the problems you're trying to address.





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Yes, turning off "AccuEQ room calibration". Use a dB meter to set levels (download to your phone, free on the web).
Are they accurate enough ? but it way is useless let me tell why the reason for doing this because i tried at 80hz for a month and 100hz for 15 days and today for the first time i try at 120hz and huge difference i could tell much better.

I just dowloaded the app how this works just measure from my listing area ?
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Limiting the sub to 80 Hz and below is accomplished by setting the receiver's Bass Management crossover to 80 Hz. The crossover is actually 2 filters, a "Low Pass Filter" (LPF) on the subwoofer and a "High Pass Filter" (HPF) on the speakers. When the crossover is set to 80 Hz, the LPF allows all the content below 80 Hz to "pass" to the sub and filters out, (cuts), all the content above 80 Hz. The HPF allows all the content above 80 Hz to "pass" to the speakers and filters out/cuts all the content below 80 Hz.



The cutoff knob on the back of the sub is just an LPF with no associated HPF. Most people get that filter out of the way by just setting it as high as it can be set, letting the receiver's filters do all the Bass Management. Another way to reduce localization is to "cascade" the LPF's by setting the LPF on the sub to the same frequency as the crossover in the receiver. However, depending on the configurations of the filters, this can cause some phase issues that are worse than the problems you're trying to address.




So far so good much appreciated for this big info. But the "by setting the receiver's Bass Management crossover to 80 Hz" I have no option for the sub in the crossover setting menu ( check picture above) only speakers and last is LPF of LFE which is at 120hz is this option you mean to lower it to 80hz ?

And yeah actually i set the cut off knob at max 120hz.

Thanks Craig.
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post #28 of 91 Old 08-12-2019, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by M9ADE3 View Post
So far so good much appreciated for this big info. But the "by setting the receiver's Bass Management crossover to 80 Hz" I have no option for the sub in the crossover setting menu ( check picture above) only speakers and last is LPF of LFE which is at 120hz is this option you mean to lower it to 80hz ?
In that pic, you've set the "crossovers" to 120 Hz. As I said before the crossovers contain both the LPF for the sub and the HPF for the speakers. You can't set them to different frequencies.



The LPF of LFE is a separate LPF that is only applied to the LFE channel. It has no effect on the LPF or HPF of the crossovers or any of the re-directed bass from the main channels. The LFE channel is limited to 120 Hz content during the recording process. Most people will tell you to leave the LPF of LFE set to 120 Hz. However, it's OK to reduce it to 80 Hz if you like.


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And yeah actually i set the cut off knob at max 120hz.

Thanks Craig.

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Are they accurate enough ? but it way is useless let me tell why the reason for doing this because i tried at 80hz for a month and 100hz for 15 days and today for the first time i try at 120hz and huge difference i could tell much better.

I just dowloaded the app how this works just measure from my listing area ?
Yes. Start with the center channel, dial it in to 75 DB, then proceed to all the other channels. Be aware that the sub channel may not be quite as accurate, as phone mics are not very good at lower frequencies. So, start at 75 and work your way up or down, to what sounds even with the rest of the speakers.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #30 of 91 Old 08-13-2019, 04:44 AM
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The PRIMARY reason for setting LFE Crossover Frequency to say 80, 100, 120 or 200 Hz has to do with minimizing DISTORTION, more than simply Volume, cuz most L/R Speakers put out plenty of power at even 60-Hz....but it is NOT low Distortion power.

It would help if mfr's or Speaker Reviewers provided Charts showing Distortion vs Frequency at one or more Power Levels....but THAT is a thing of the past. Nonetheless, my rule of thumb is that Distortion from L/R Speakers at the -3 dB Roll-Off Point needs to be ATTENUATED. This is done by choosing the L/R LFE Crossover Frequency to be TWICE the -3 dB Roll-Off Frequency. Hence for a "typical" Roll-Off Freq Spec Value of say 40-Hz, the L/R LFE Crossover "should" be 80-Hz. Small Bookshelf Speakers (with smallish 5.25-in Woofer) may have a Roll-Off Freq of only 60-Hz, so you would chose LFE Crossover Freq of 120-Hz....or higher, if it uses a Tiny Enclosure, as is common for some Satellite Speakers.

Unfortunately, mfr specs are rarely clear about whether their Low-Freq Roll-Off spec value is at -3 dB....or -6 dB....or perhaps even -10 dB....so you might want to use my alternative "rule-of-thumb": select 80-Hz if Speaker is 10-in or larger, select 100-Hz if 8 to 6-in and 120-Hz or 200-Hz if even smaller Woofer. Bear in mind that there is very little benefit in selecting a lower Crossover Freq....and LOTS of benefit in selecting a HIGHER Crossover Freq.....letting the Sub-Woofer pump out copious amounts of LOW Distortion Bass on the higher Freqs that it has NO PROBLEM doing....indeed it likely won't suffer ill effects even if you select a 200-Hz Crossover Freq.

Ideally, you "should" be able to set the LFE Crossover Freq separately for the Satellite Speakers, using the same rule described above. However, some equipment only have a "one-size-fits-all" selection, in which you should try setting for L/R as well as the Satellites....theoretically, the higher Freq should be "better".
I don't really disagree with much of anything posted here. I just wanted to add on to this and/or provide a different perspective.

From 20 Hz up to about 80 Hz, we can hear sounds but we can't locate them; they sound like they're coming from anywhere/everywhere. The wavelengths are too long for the little sensors in our ears to pinpoint the he source of the noise.

Above about 80 Hz we're pretty good at locating/placing the source of the sound. So, from an imaging/soundstage perspective, you ideally want to cross over at nothing higher than 80 Hz. This way omnidirectional sounds are emitted from your sub, and you can get a nice soundstage/instrument location for music. For movies, things happening on the left of the screen come at you from the left side, etc.

Ideally you want to buy big enough/robust enough speakers (at least the Front 3) so that they don't need to be crossed over until at or below 80 Hz (without a big dip in output poor sound quality).
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