I just bought a Sunfire XTEQ12 subwoofer. Opinions? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 49 Old 08-12-2019, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I just bought a Sunfire XTEQ12 subwoofer. Opinions?

I just bought a Sunfire XTEQ12 to add to my sound system. Opinions? Here is my current sound system:

* 2 Klipsch Cornwall III speakers (right and left channels)
* 1 Klipsch Heresy III speaker (center channel)
* 1 Paradigm Defiance X15 subwoofer
* 1 Anthem AVM 60 Preamplifier/Processor
* 1 Monoprice Monolith 5 (200 watts RMS x 5) - Made by ATI
* 1 LG C8 65" OLED 4K HDR Dolby Atmos Smart TV

This is the Sunfire XTEQ12:



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post #2 of 49 Old 08-12-2019, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Viper5121 View Post
I just bought a Sunfire XTEQ12 to add to my sound system. Opinions? Here is my current sound system:
Not often recommended on AVS but if you like it that's all that counts.

Brent Butterworth is one of the premier reviewers of subs and had this to say.

https://hometheaterreview.com/sunfir...viewed/?page=2

"The downside of the XTEQ12 is literally the downside: the bass region below 40 Hz. While I got good output in all the punches, kicks, and explosions in movie soundtracks, I didn't get much of that powerful, room-pressurizing low-frequency energy that the biggest and best subwoofers deliver."

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post #3 of 49 Old 08-12-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Viper5121 View Post
I just bought a Sunfire XTEQ12 to add to my sound system. Opinions? Here is my current sound system:

* 2 Klipsch Cornwall III speakers (right and left channels)
* 1 Klipsch Heresy III speaker (center channel)
* 1 Paradigm Defiance X15 subwoofer
* 1 Anthem AVM 60 Preamplifier/Processor
* 1 Monoprice Monolith 5 (200 watts RMS x 5) - Made by ATI
* 1 LG C8 65" OLED 4K HDR Dolby Atmos Smart TV

This is the Sunfire XTEQ12:



It is a good sub, though getting a 2nd X15 would be much easier to integrate.
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post #4 of 49 Old 08-12-2019, 10:41 AM
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I don't think the Sunfire will go much below the Cornwalls (if at all, with room gain). IMHO, money not well spent. If you want more low end grunt, I'd get another Paradigm.
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post #5 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 12:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post
I don't think the Sunfire will go much below the Cornwalls (if at all, with room gain). IMHO, money not well spent. If you want more low end grunt, I'd get another Paradigm.
No room for another Paradigm X15. The Sunfire is a crazy powerful subwoofer and probably the most powerful available for its compact size. It is highly regarded by most although you can always find negative reviews for almost anything.
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post #6 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Viper5121 View Post
No room for another Paradigm X15. The Sunfire is a crazy powerful subwoofer and probably the most powerful available for its compact size. It is highly regarded by most although you can always find negative reviews for almost anything.
I own the Sunfire HRS -12 rated 1000w RMS , and the Xteq12 should be a step up. Sunfire's very good amps make the difference, which is why the compact sizes don't tell the story with Sunfire. You made a good purchase, but I would also tell you this forum does not consider Sunfire a popular brand. This forum seems to love the newer Internet direct brands more than older established brands. You won't see a whole lot discussion for JL Audio on this forum either. Doesn't mean they aren't good. The Sunfire HRS 12 I own despite compact size can shake window panes in my midsized room when really pushed to its 1000W capability. And why I like it is because it blends with music nicely in 2.1. On this forum nobody would tell you choosing sunfire over Svs, but i prefer my ears than a graph or an opinion. In my auditioning, Sunfire subs have better musicality than svs, main reason I chose it, movie performance is fine/good enough. Enjoy the Xteq12. I also heard from a dealer Sunfire is launching a new series in subwoofers next year.
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Last edited by Gerry1975; 08-13-2019 at 02:18 AM.
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post #7 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
I own the Sunfire HRS -12 rated 1000w RMS , and the Xteq12 should be a step up. Sunfire's very good amps make the difference, which is why the compact sizes don't tell the story with Sunfire. You made a good purchase, but I would also tell you this forum does not consider Sunfire a popular brand. This forum seems to love the newer Internet direct brands more than older established brands. You won't see a whole lot discussion for JL Audio on this forum either. Doesn't mean they aren't good. The Sunfire HRS 12 I own despite compact size can shake window panes in my midsized room when really pushed to its 1000W capability. And why I like it is because it blends with music nicely in 2.1. On this forum nobody would tell you choosing sunfire over Svs, but i prefer my ears than a graph or an opinion. In my auditioning, Sunfire subs have better musicality than svs, main reason I chose it, movie performance is fine/good enough. Enjoy the Xteq12. I also heard from a dealer Sunfire is launching a new series in subwoofers next year.
Yeah, my friend who is very knowledgeable about audio equipment told me he demoed a XTEQ10 once at he was blown away by how powerful it was. He told me it was literally the most powerful and loudest (while saying clear) subwoofer in the whole hi-fi audio store. So, the XTEQ12 with 12" woofers and even more watts must an absolute BEAST!!

Personally, I like tried-and-true companies myself instead of new flash-in-the-pan internet companies. That's why all my components are from tried-and-true companies. Even though my Monolith 5 amplifier is marketed by Monoprice, it is made by ATI. And the Monolith 5 is nothing short of AMAZING!!

However, usually if any audio component is not being sold is actual brick & mortar stores, I get highly suspicious. I think to myself "If it's really that good, then how come it's not being sold in brick & mortar stores, and why can't I demo it?". I demoed every component I bought except for the Monolith 5 amplifier but I did extensive research on that and took a gamble and it turned out fantastic!! However, I didn't demo the Sunfire XTEQ12, but I trust my friend's opinion of the XTEQ10.

One example of sticking with tried-and-true established companies is choosing an Anthem AVM 60 over an Emotiva XMC-1. There is no way I would choose an Emotiva over an Anthem or even an Integra. Anthem and Integra are established companies and their products can be demoed in stores. I did consider Emotiva for a while because I heard so much about their amplifiers, but when I found an ATI-made amplifier (the Monolith 5) for similar cost and better design (monoblocks instead of dynamic) it was an easy choice.

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post #8 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 09:29 AM
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This forum seems to love the newer Internet direct brands more than older established brands
The reason is they offer a lot of bang for the buck, and are able to dig deeper because they're less concerned about using a very small box.

The last time I heard a Sunfire sub, about 20 years ago, I thought the small box was a novelty, and it was a good performer as long as you didn't expect extension or push it too hard(the driver would bottom out). It seemed to be well made and was very heavy for its size.

As always integration is they key. It'll kind of be a mid-bass module having decent output above 40 Hz. I don't know what kind of adjustments it has, but typically commercial brands don't give as much setup flexibility as DIY or the newer ID brands.

Enjoy
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post #9 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
Quote:
This forum seems to love the newer Internet direct brands more than older established brands
The reason is they offer a lot of bang for the buck, and are able to dig deeper because they're less concerned about using a very small box.

The last time I heard a Sunfire sub, about 20 years ago, I thought the small box was a novelty, and it was a good performer as long as you didn't expect extension or push it too hard(the driver would bottom out). It seemed to be well made and was very heavy for its size.

As always integration is they key. It'll kind of be a mid-bass module having decent output above 40 Hz. I don't know what kind of adjustments it has, but typically commercial brands don't give as much setup flexibility as DIY or the newer ID brands. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Enjoy
That sounds like a lot of fancy talk to hide the fact that people like newer internet brands (let’s call them off-brands) because they can’t afford (or don’t want to spend the money on) higher quality established brands that can actually be demoed at stores. Then the person is not truly satisfied but can’t afford to pay return shipping for the off-brand component or simply doesn’t want to deal with the hassle of returning it. Then the person practices choice-support bias or post-purchase rationalization as a coping mechanism. Then that same person does an internet review of the component ascribing it all these undeserved virtues, and others believe him and purchase it too. Then this has a snowball effect and these off-brands get popular despite being mediocre products.

My Home Theater System:
* 2 Klipsch Cornwall III speakers + 1 Klipsch Heresy III speaker
* 1 Paradigm Defiance X15 subwoofer (adding one more X15 soon)
* 1 Anthem AVM 60 Preamplifier/Processor + 1 Monoprice Monolith 5
* 1 LG C8 65" OLED 4K HDR Dolby Atmos Smart TV
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post #10 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 03:45 PM
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Your original post seemed to be asking for honest opinions of your recent purchase, yet when they were given, you immediately got very defensive. Not sure what the intent was here...to bash ID companies and the folks who buy from them? To prove that your sub is superior to ours??

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We all have different needs. If the Sunfire meets yours, then you win. You asked for opinions.

There are always compromises, and we have to decide where we want to make them, but the Physics and the measurements don't lie(they can just be misinterpreted).
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post #12 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
We all have different needs. If the Sunfire meets yours, then you win. You asked for opinions.

There are always compromises, and we have to decide where we want to make them, but the Physics and the measurements don't lie(they can just be misinterpreted). [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
Yes, I asked for opinions and now I’m giving my opinions of the opinions. See how that works?

I know the Sunfire XTEQ12 is an incredible subwoofer so I admit my original post was sorta a brag post. I didn’t except all the salty responses though. Some of the responses of people who actually own Sunfires were honest though and of course they are thrilled with them, and I appreciate those responses.

My Home Theater System:
* 2 Klipsch Cornwall III speakers + 1 Klipsch Heresy III speaker
* 1 Paradigm Defiance X15 subwoofer (adding one more X15 soon)
* 1 Anthem AVM 60 Preamplifier/Processor + 1 Monoprice Monolith 5
* 1 LG C8 65" OLED 4K HDR Dolby Atmos Smart TV
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post #13 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Your original post seemed to be asking for honest opinions of your recent purchase, yet when they were given, you immediately got very defensive. Not sure what the intent was here...to bash ID companies and the folks who buy from them? To prove that your sub is superior to ours??

[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG]
Just because I asked for opinions doesn’t mean I can’t give my opinion of the opinions. It works both ways. And it’s ironic that everyone who disses the Sunfire XTEQ12 has never heard one in real life. And people who have heard it in real life can’t the believe depth, loudness, and clarity it is capable of.

My Home Theater System:
* 2 Klipsch Cornwall III speakers + 1 Klipsch Heresy III speaker
* 1 Paradigm Defiance X15 subwoofer (adding one more X15 soon)
* 1 Anthem AVM 60 Preamplifier/Processor + 1 Monoprice Monolith 5
* 1 LG C8 65" OLED 4K HDR Dolby Atmos Smart TV
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post #14 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
... the compact sizes don't tell the story with Sunfire. ...
Right, the rest of the story is in the measured frequency response as shown in the second post of this thread. Anyone who prioritizes the specific combination of size, cost and measured performance of a particular sub is probably going to like it while others who have different priorities will look elsewhere. Nothing really worth debating.
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post #15 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 08:14 PM
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Well Viper, you committed quite a few errors on your part,

First one is posting about subwoofers in the speaker forum--just sayin'

Second error is purchasing your first subwoofer that would be too large when it came time to pick up a second subwoofer--generally speaking, it is a good idea to use the same subwoofer in multiples.

Third error was not learning/understanding how ported subwoofers work so to avoid the phase errors and frequency response irregularities caused by using two differently tuned ported subs that create nulls when they interact.

Forth error is not understanding frequency response, SPL charts etc. when purchasing subwoofers--defaulting to "cost" or "watts" is not how subwoofers work.

The last error (also very noobish) is purchasing things first then asking about them. You should ask BEFORE you purchase things and ask what sub would match your Paradigm but is smaller--you would have better performance.

Now getting mad and getting your man bun in a twist didn't help you. Arrogance does not make up for ignorance so better to be the silent fool than opening your mouth to prove it.

As the great philosopher, Led Zeppelin once said "It's nobodies fault but mine"

Enjoy your system, looked up the Paradigm sub--it drops off rapidly below 31 Hz also--might luck out and have it work OK.
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post #16 of 49 Old 08-13-2019, 11:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
Well Viper, you committed quite a few errors on your part,

First one is posting about subwoofers in the speaker forum--just sayin'

Second error is purchasing your first subwoofer that would be too large when it came time to pick up a second subwoofer--generally speaking, it is a good idea to use the same subwoofer in multiples.

Third error was not learning/understanding how ported subwoofers work so to avoid the phase errors and frequency response irregularities caused by using two differently tuned ported subs that create nulls when they interact.

Forth error is not understanding frequency response, SPL charts etc. when purchasing subwoofers--defaulting to "cost" or "watts" is not how subwoofers work.

The last error (also very noobish) is purchasing things first then asking about them. You should ask BEFORE you purchase things and ask what sub would match your Paradigm but is smaller--you would have better performance.

Now getting mad and getting your man bun in a twist didn't help you. Arrogance does not make up for ignorance so better to be the silent fool than opening your mouth to prove it.

As the great philosopher, Led Zeppelin once said "It's nobodies fault but mine"

Enjoy your system, looked up the Paradigm sub--it drops off rapidly below 31 Hz also--might luck out and have it work OK.
Well 18Hurts, you committed quite a few errors on your part,

First one is knit-picking between the speaker and subwoofer forum--just sayin'

Second error is assuming you know how much space I have in my room for subwoofers, and assuming that two subwoofers must be the exact same size to work properly in a room together (a complete and utter fallacy btw). Also, you not realizing that I wanted a smaller subwoofer for tighter bass (yes, size of the subwoofer makes a difference in tightness, and I have heard this difference in real-life and it's very easily noticeable).

Third error was that the human ear can even pick up on those so-called "irregularities" as you call them that are supposedly caused by a running ported sub and sealed sub in the same room. Pretty sure only a so-called "audiophile expert" who pretends to hear things that are not audible by the human ear would even pretend to hear these so-called "irregularities".

Fourth error is assuming I care about stupid charts and graphs when the real test is simply pumping the beats and enjoying the super cool deep and hard-hitting bass. Not sitting there like some kinda uber-nerd analyzing acoustic waves or whatever nonsense.

The last error (also very noobish) is believing whatever nonsense you read online instead of relying on real-world demos and/or advice from knowledge friends in the real-world who have actually demoed this equipment. Yes, I asked for opinions, but it was more for discussion (and a big of bragging to be honest) than anything else. I know damn well I made an excellent choice. I am just excited I am getting a new subwoofer.

Now getting mad and getting your man bun in a twist didn't help you. Arrogance does not make up for ignorance so better to be the silent fool than opening your mouth to prove it.

As the great philosopher, Led Zeppelin once said "It's nobodies fault but mine"

Enjoy analyzing every little nonsensical chart and graph searching for some holy grail of so-called "acoustically perfect sound". Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying jamming down to my awesome hard-hitting system.

Last edited by Viper5121; 08-13-2019 at 11:29 PM.
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post #17 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 04:57 AM
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This thread is quite entertaining. Has the OP even heard his world-beating sub?

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post #18 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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This thread is quite entertaining. Has the OP even heard his world-beating sub?

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"world-beating"?

Exaggerate much??

I simply said I know it's a very powerful subwoofer that is very highly regarded. Sunfire is known for making compact subwoofers with bass that rivals large ported units. That is literally how they got popular.

But keep hating. It's fun to read the hate
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Originally Posted by Viper5121 View Post
"world-beating"?



Exaggerate much??



I simply said I know it's a very powerful subwoofer that is very highly regarded. Sunfire is known for making compact subwoofers with bass that rivals large ported units. That is literally how they got popular.



But keep hating. It's fun to read the hate
Enjoy your new sub.

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post #20 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 06:59 AM
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Personally, I like tried-and-true companies myself instead of new flash-in-the-pan internet companies.
Nice trolling! (Goes to get popcorn and butter ...)
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post #21 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Not often recommended on AVS but if you like it that's all that counts.

Brent Butterworth is one of the premier reviewers of subs and had this to say.

https://hometheaterreview.com/sunfir...viewed/?page=2

"The downside of the XTEQ12 is literally the downside: the bass region below 40 Hz. While I got good output in all the punches, kicks, and explosions in movie soundtracks, I didn't get much of that powerful, room-pressurizing low-frequency energy that the biggest and best subwoofers deliver."


Don't confuse the OP with facts from an established, tried-and-true reviewer, sheesh

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post #22 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Viper5121 View Post
Yes, I asked for opinions and now I’m giving my opinions of the opinions. See how that works?

I know the Sunfire XTEQ12 is an incredible subwoofer so I admit my original post was sorta a brag post. I didn’t except all the salty responses though. Some of the responses of people who actually own Sunfires were honest though and of course they are thrilled with them, and I appreciate those responses.
Why did you ask for opinions if you are just going discount them? What's the point? You just want responses from Sunfire fanboys? What for?

One other thing, there's a reason that they call it Hoffman's Iron Law. It can't be broken, not even by Sunfire.

Enjoy your sub, just don't expect everyone to think the same about it as you.
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post #23 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Viper5121 View Post
Yeah, my friend who is very knowledgeable about audio equipment told me he demoed a XTEQ10 once at he was blown away by how powerful it was. He told me it was literally the most powerful and loudest (while saying clear) subwoofer in the whole hi-fi audio store. So, the XTEQ12 with 12" woofers and even more watts must an absolute BEAST!!

Personally, I like tried-and-true companies myself instead of new flash-in-the-pan internet companies. That's why all my components are from tried-and-true companies. Even though my Monolith 5 amplifier is marketed by Monoprice, it is made by ATI. And the Monolith 5 is nothing short of AMAZING!!

That's a highly uneducated take. Rythmik, SVS, HSU and some others have been around 20 years or so, hardly a flash in the pan. If you think that Sunfire can touch anything in the same price range Rythmik offers, you are kidding yourself.

I do understand your suspicion of stuff you can't see/buy in a store, but all these ID companies allow returns, most, but not all will make you pay for the shipping back. And while Emotiva's processors do have problems, their speakers and amps compete well with anyone in their price range.

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post #24 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Viper5121 View Post
Just because I asked for opinions doesn’t mean I can’t give my opinion of the opinions. It works both ways. And it’s ironic that everyone who disses the Sunfire XTEQ12 has never heard one in real life. And people who have heard it in real life can’t the believe depth, loudness, and clarity it is capable of.
Yet you feel free to dis ID brands without listening to a single one. SVS isn't really an ID brand anymore.
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post #25 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
Well Viper, you committed quite a few errors on your part,

First one is posting about subwoofers in the speaker forum--just sayin'

Second error is purchasing your first subwoofer that would be too large when it came time to pick up a second subwoofer--generally speaking, it is a good idea to use the same subwoofer in multiples.

Third error was not learning/understanding how ported subwoofers work so to avoid the phase errors and frequency response irregularities caused by using two differently tuned ported subs that create nulls when they interact.

Forth error is not understanding frequency response, SPL charts etc. when purchasing subwoofers--defaulting to "cost" or "watts" is not how subwoofers work.

The last error (also very noobish) is purchasing things first then asking about them. You should ask BEFORE you purchase things and ask what sub would match your Paradigm but is smaller--you would have better performance.

Now getting mad and getting your man bun in a twist didn't help you. Arrogance does not make up for ignorance so better to be the silent fool than opening your mouth to prove it.

As the great philosopher, Led Zeppelin once said "It's nobodies fault but mine"

Enjoy your system, looked up the Paradigm sub--it drops off rapidly below 31 Hz also--might luck out and have it work OK. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG]
This post should win an award! I agree completely.
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post #26 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Viper5121 View Post
Second error is assuming you know how much space I have in my room for subwoofers, and assuming that two subwoofers must be the exact same size to work properly in a room together (a complete and utter fallacy btw).
They don't necessarily need to be the same size, but they should at least have very similar frequency responses and output capabilities...if you are concerned at all with maximizing performance, that is.


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Also, you not realizing that I wanted a smaller subwoofer for tighter bass (yes, size of the subwoofer makes a difference in tightness, and I have heard this difference in real-life and it's very easily noticeable).
So, subs with 18" or even 21" drivers can't be as "tight" as smaller drivers? Now who's spreading fallacy...?


Quote:
Third error was that the human ear can even pick up on those so-called "irregularities" as you call them that are supposedly caused by a running ported sub and sealed sub in the same room. Pretty sure only a so-called "audiophile expert" who pretends to hear things that are not audible by the human ear would even pretend to hear these so-called "irregularities".
You are really showing your lack of knowledge here. The human ear can easily "pick up on" a null higher in the passband, not to mention the massive reduction of TR if the cancellation is in the ULF. Mixing ported and sealed will almost always result in a massive null right around the tuning point of the ported sub. There are ways to alleviate this, but I'm fairly certain those methods would be a mystery to you since....


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Fourth error is assuming I care about stupid charts and graphs when the real test is simply pumping the beats and enjoying the super cool deep and hard-hitting bass. Not sitting there like some kinda uber-nerd analyzing acoustic waves or whatever nonsense.
You are definitely in the wrong forum...
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post #27 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Eddy_Z View Post
Don't confuse the OP with facts from an established, tried-and-true reviewer, sheesh
I guess when he reviews and measures subwoofers he discriminates in favor of ID companies who pay attention to standard industry methodologies which try to achieve at worst a +/- 3db variation over stated frequency response?

The Sunfire claims frequency response of 16hz to 100hz but it is 34db down or so at 16hz from its 80hz peak, and almost 10db down from that peak at 100hz.

Clearly a good sub or speaker shouldn't measure as flat as possible across its frequency range but should have massive peaks and steep valleys.

BIC subs are a bit peaky in their measured response but at least the peak is around 50hz not 80hz!

But if the OP likes the sound as many of us have stated then more power to him.

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post #28 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 10:46 AM
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Sunfire's downtracking amps make the difference compared to other brands, in that it is able to provide better output in compact sizes compared to the same compact sized subwoofer of other brands.i was surprised how much output the hrs12 could give for its size. Its performance with music is what made me buy it, though i use it for movies too.<br />
And choosing older established brands over the newer internet direct brands is a preference.When I want to upgrade my Sunfire hrs 12 ,I will be looking at a JL audio falcon, not any of those other newer brands that are popular on this board. The high-end JL audio models would still beat most of the newer brands.<br />
And it's not just with subwoofers I have a preference of choosing established brands,it's the same with loudspeakers too. I would take a Bowers and Wilkins over a Philharmonic audio any day of the week.<br />
And with older established brands, there is huge room for price negotiation if you find the right retailer.Go to a smaller local retailer, you will be able to buy it significantly cheaper than the manufacturer MRP. I got my Sunfire subwoofer at the price of a 12&quot; sealed box svs.
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Originally Posted by Viper5121 View Post
Then the person practices choice-support bias or post-purchase rationalization as a coping mechanism. Then that same person does an internet review of the component ascribing it all these undeserved virtues.......

You do recognize what you're doing here right?
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post #30 of 49 Old 08-14-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
And choosing older established brands over the newer internet direct brands is a preference.When I want to upgrade my Sunfire hrs 12 ,I will be looking at a JL audio falcon, not any of those other newer brands that are popular on this board. The high-end JL audio models would still beat most of the newer brands.<br />
And it's not just with subwoofers I have a preference of choosing established brands,it's the same with loudspeakers too. I would take a Bowers and Wilkins over a Philharmonic audio any day of the week.<br />
And with older established brands, there is huge room for price negotiation if you find the right retailer.Go to a smaller local retailer, you will be able to buy it significantly cheaper than the manufacturer MRP. I got my Sunfire subwoofer at the price of a 12&quot; sealed box svs.

You do realize that many of these "newer" internet-direct brands were started by professional audio people coming from extensive experience working at "Established" brands?
As an example, Dave Fabrikant of Ascend Acoustics has many years of pro speaker design experience with "established" brands, such as M&K(Ever heard of them?). He had enough of working to a specific price point/timeline to get product to market with enough profit margin to sell to a retailer, who then had to mark up the product to MSRP to make their profit. His mission was to offer the best speakers possible where the average Joe could afford them. His relationships with various vendors along the way helped him do so when he started out.


If people want to cling to the ideal that only "Established" long standing brands can offer better sound and value than other "newer" companies then more power to them.

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