In-Walls or On-Walls for LCR? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 67 Old 08-18-2019, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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In-Walls or On-Walls for LCR?

In our master bedroom we like to watch a lot of movies (80%) and a listen to a little bit of music (20%). It looks like towers or bookshelfs won't work due to WAF and being in a pathway to bathroom. Would you recommend in-walls or on-walls for LCR? With in-walls I am a little worried that I would have to alter the studs to get the speakers lined up the way I would like, but if it is worth it I am open to it. If on-walls are just as good I will just go that route. I will also add 2 rears and sub after choosing LCR's. As an fyi the receiver and equipment will be in a closet on the wall behind so I will not have any cabinet on the ground.
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post #2 of 67 Old 08-18-2019, 02:31 PM
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In a bedroom setting, I would go with an in-wall setup. First find out about the stud layout, then go from there.

If you have to go with an on-wall setup, do you have speakers in mind?

What about a high-end soundbar? Some of the latest ones sound CRAZY good.

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post #3 of 67 Old 08-18-2019, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins02 View Post
In our master bedroom we like to watch a lot of movies (80%) and a listen to a little bit of music (20%). It looks like towers or bookshelfs won't work due to WAF and being in a pathway to bathroom. Would you recommend in-walls or on-walls for LCR? With in-walls I am a little worried that I would have to alter the studs to get the speakers lined up the way I would like, but if it is worth it I am open to it. If on-walls are just as good I will just go that route. I will also add 2 rears and sub after choosing LCR's. As an fyi the receiver and equipment will be in a closet on the wall behind so I will not have any cabinet on the ground.
I'd get on walls over in walls as you don't have to leave them if you move and not sure someone else would be happy with speakers you would likely leave behind, (it would a PITA to repair the walls).

On walls can be had for as little as $200/pair for JBLs but I'd look at 5 of these unless they are out of budget.

https://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-M...50465177&psc=1

You could use these for rears.

https://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-C.../dp/B073V6VNXK
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post #4 of 67 Old 08-18-2019, 11:51 PM
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Def Tech has a 5 channel passive soundbar. Might solve your speaker problem with one unit. On closeout, so you may have a limited time to decide:

https://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Te.../dp/B00170MK2S

Lots of 3 channel passive options from Golden Ear, KEF, Revel, Monitor Audio, Triad, HTD, to name a few.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

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post #5 of 67 Old 08-19-2019, 05:10 AM
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One other note about in-walls... you should check out where the wall cavity opens up above and if it might lead to sound being pushed where you might not want it, such as another bedroom or office. I just finished patching up some walls recently where in-walls were obnoxious in adjacent rooms. I added what is now my third full set of RSL speakers mounted on the walls and coupled with their speedwoofers, they sound absolutely amazing. I think RSL Speakers offer the most bang for the buck of anything out there.


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post #6 of 67 Old 08-19-2019, 06:38 AM
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I would recommend the Triad InWall Mini LCRs: https://www.triadspeakers.com/produc.../iw-mini4-lcr/

Triad will also paint the speaker grills to match your wall.
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post #7 of 67 Old 08-19-2019, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins02 View Post
In our master bedroom we like to watch a lot of movies (80%) and a listen to a little bit of music (20%). It looks like towers or bookshelfs won't work due to WAF and being in a pathway to bathroom. Would you recommend in-walls or on-walls for LCR? With in-walls I am a little worried that I would have to alter the studs to get the speakers lined up the way I would like, but if it is worth it I am open to it. If on-walls are just as good I will just go that route. I will also add 2 rears and sub after choosing LCR's. As an fyi the receiver and equipment will be in a closet on the wall behind so I will not have any cabinet on the ground.
On-walls = a lot less than in-walls because you don't have to pay for installation, plus can easily take them with you when you move.

Dollar for dollar, they also tend to sound far better than in-walls. For example a $300 pair would run circles around any $300/pr in-walls.

Have you ever considered using compact wall-mounted bookshelves, as in the photos below?
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #8 of 67 Old 08-19-2019, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much for all the advice. I really appreciate it. I think I will narrow my search to on-walls or possibly wall-mounting book shelf speakers.
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post #9 of 67 Old 08-19-2019, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
On-walls = a lot less than in-walls because you don't have to pay for installation, plus can easily take them with you when you move.

Dollar for dollar, they also tend to sound far better than in-walls. For example a $300 pair would run circles around any $300/pr in-walls.

Have you ever considered using compact wall-mounted bookshelves, as in the photos below?
- The statement/generalization above in bold is ridiculously untrue. Absurdly so, even.

- Mounted bookshelf speakers are also disgusting in 2019. Hideous idea that might have been fine design in the 80's or 90's. In a world of flat panel TV's 2" thick, you're advocating sticking something on the wall that sticks 8" or more? In a master bedroom? No.

- Your statement on installation cost is off as well. A drywall knife/saw cost less than the mounts for those monstrosities hanging off the wall in those pics and cutting them in would be just as easy as hanging those. Same with the drywall anchors for the on-walls. $8-$12 gets you a drywall knife, man. Most people have a level and a basic stud finder might be $10.
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post #10 of 67 Old 08-19-2019, 03:20 PM
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If moving is a concern in the future the in wall cut out holes are cheap to repair.

I had an installation where the in walls were to high. There is usually local construction going on every where now a days.

That said a good drywaller can patch for $50 an opening or less. I have pics to show.

On walls are a good option but mainly designed for ease of installation. I think a properly designed in wall is better since it will use the wall cavity whereas an on wall is normally only 2-3” deep.

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post #11 of 67 Old 08-19-2019, 03:22 PM
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Mr. Higgins is that vent fed from under the floor or inside the wall?

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post #12 of 67 Old 08-19-2019, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post
- Mounted bookshelf speakers are also disgusting in 2019. Hideous idea that might have been fine design in the 80's or 90's. In a world of flat panel TV's 2" thick, you're advocating sticking something on the wall that sticks 8" or more? In a master bedroom? No.
LOL, if you are a slave to WAF and/or impressing the no-nothing Bose-loving neighbors, sure whatever...I think you're pushing your business model a bit hard aren't you?

This is not a "prettify your house" forum.

As for your other objections, the bottom line remains that $300 can get you a great pair of compact bookshelf speakers that are easily mounted and easily removed. I've never seen a $300 pair of in-walls with a decently engineered back-box (the main feature that can make in-walls not sound craptastic) as well as decent drivers.

The other bottom line is this: Any consumer who buys in-walls resigns himself to trusting the (often slimy, commission-chasing) salesman who sold the speakers to him, since if he isn't crazy about the actual sound of the in-walls once they've been put in HIS room, playing HIS content, using HIS electronics---as opposed to the ivory tower conditions, room treatments and high end electronics usually found in boutique showrooms---he's SOL. Putting a pair of bookshelf speakers back into the box and shipping them back or returning them at the store is a hell of a lot easier/quicker than removing in-wall speakers and then probably having to re-fit the hole for the replacement speaker.

Of course, if you are IN the industry on the selling end, you want to sell whatever makes life easiest and most profitable for YOU, not for the hapless and gullible consumer.

That's why enthusiast forums like this exist.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #13 of 67 Old 08-19-2019, 07:03 PM
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I tried out some Revel S15 on-wall speakers a year or so ago and they sounded great with plenty of bass to blend with a sub. Those would be at the top of my list for an on-wall setup.
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post #14 of 67 Old 08-20-2019, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
LOL, if you are a slave to WAF and/or impressing the no-nothing Bose-loving neighbors, sure whatever...I think you're pushing your business model a bit hard aren't you?

This is not a "prettify your house" forum.

As for your other objections, the bottom line remains that $300 can get you a great pair of compact bookshelf speakers that are easily mounted and easily removed. I've never seen a $300 pair of in-walls with a decently engineered back-box (the main feature that can make in-walls not sound craptastic) as well as decent drivers.

The other bottom line is this: Any consumer who buys in-walls resigns himself to trusting the (often slimy, commission-chasing) salesman who sold the speakers to him, since if he isn't crazy about the actual sound of the in-walls once they've been put in HIS room, playing HIS content, using HIS electronics---as opposed to the ivory tower conditions, room treatments and high end electronics usually found in boutique showrooms---he's SOL. Putting a pair of bookshelf speakers back into the box and shipping them back or returning them at the store is a hell of a lot easier/quicker than removing in-wall speakers and then probably having to re-fit the hole for the replacement speaker.

Of course, if you are IN the industry on the selling end, you want to sell whatever makes life easiest and most profitable for YOU, not for the hapless and gullible consumer.

That's why enthusiast forums like this exist.
You have, literally NO experience, NOR any idea of what you're speaking of. See notes below, addressing your "points" in order....

- What business model am I pushing and, to what extent do you think it helps me? I have not, and do not initiate PMs to people on here to sell things. Nor do I put my business name on here to try and get sales. I post anonymously to give honest info. So honest, in fact, that a prominent dealer on this forum - I know who it is, but was asked to play nice - complained about me to a large manufacturer, lying that I initiate PMing people trying to sell gear (which I proved that it is he that actually does that and he was mad I possibly hurt his margins) trying to get me off of here. Didn't work, because it didn't happen and I proved it.

I do have a classified in the dealer section (where it's supposed to be) for floor standing speakers, FFS. WTF do you think I gain from telling him the tools he needs to do it himself? Do you think I get a commission for every in-wall speaker sold on planet Earth? Maybe you think I get paid for every drywall saw and stud finder, too?

Your personal sniping at me for being a professional in this industry is weird and misplaced. 20 years of experience and I give advice FOR FREE. Real, hands on, professional advice and ask for nothing in return unless someone asks me for help because they cannot find gear they need. Plenty of times I've even designed entire houses and projects for AVS members for free and just to help them. Strange how you've pimped brands that actually DO market online and on this forum and who actually ARE doing so to make money off of people. Do you just not realize that, or are you a hypocrite?

- This also isn't a "How can I make my house look like 1996 forum, either". Nor is it a "I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about forum", yet you still continue to spew forth totally wrong information. You're also generalizing and stereotyping the OP's neighbors, whom you know jack ISH about.

- Removing the speakers is a function of on and in-walls, yes. Did the OP say he needed or wanted a temporary solution? Perhaps I missed that. If he needs to remove them any time soon, totally understand the on-walls. On-walls, BTW, have very small enclosures and limited bass response and volume. They can absolutely work, but good ones are a bit pricey compared to a lower cost in-wall.

- I call BS on the "$300 can get you a great pair of bookshelves". Not new ones, anyway. Besides that, the mounting hardware isn't free, either. So, your entire costing position here is imaginary and incomplete. The 2x4 stud cavity, along with the drywall and open back in-wall occupies, is often times thicker and more dense than the enclosure of the $300 bookshelves you're pimping - especially if stuffed with sufficient batted insulation.

- Your assertion on the back box is completely, grossly wrong and has been debunked on this forum ad nauseam. Back boxes on in-walls LIMIT BASS RESPONSE BY CUTTING OFF THE AIR TO THE WOOFER, THUS NOT ALLOWING IT TO MOVE. There are benefits and drawbacks to both designs. Your blanket statement comes from ignorance and inexperience, yet you feel qualified to speak about it. I do this for a living..... you read about it. Perhaps next, go watch Top Gun and then find an aviation forum to tell pilots how to fly.

- Your 4th paragraph is a nonsensical, insane rant with more make believe BS. Not sure what 3rd world war-zone you live in where the big bad salesmen have ravaged and pillaged your lands but, MOVE, dude. It's a big world out there and there are outstanding professionals out there who enjoy helping people. You're clearly butt-hurt over some experience you had with salesmen somewhere in your timeline. You're just inventing scenarios to fit your personal narrative. What on Earth are you taking about?

The OP has to buy the speakers from somewhere. As if no one slimy has ever ran a web based audio business. AV123, anyone? Web based business and advertising isn't the most integrity filled industry, either. People misinform for money. Sometimes intentionally. Sometimes accidentally. Heck, you've done it several times in this thread, already - and in 1,000s of others.

- Again you insinuate that I have something to gain here. What on Earth are you talking about? Directly, I am asking you to connect the dots of me reading your BS post, pointing out it is BS, and then connect me try to, as you put it, "sell whatever makes life easiest and most profitable for YOU, not for the hapless and gullible consumer."

You won't connect those dots because you absolutely can't. I saw a guy getting god awful advice and stepped in to say it was BS. Not selling him anything at all. YOU NOW INSINUATING THAT HE OR ANY OTHER CONSUMER IS GULLIBLE IS INSULTING TO HIM. Why insult him as if he is not intelligent enough to read through and make his own decisions? This is your general opinion of people? And then YOU just think that YOU know better? That's disgusting.

- Lastly, sure, this forum has some snakes only looking to sell gear under the guise of offering help, yes. It's also filled with good enthusiasts, bad enthusiasts, good dealers looking to help, and everything in between. It's the largest A/V forum in the world. To make this an "us vs. them" forum would be to eliminate and ostracize actual professionals who give good advice. Your response to me and the post before it is shameful on so many levels.
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post #15 of 67 Old 08-20-2019, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post
Your personal sniping at me for being a professional in this industry is weird and misplaced. 20 years of experience and I give advice FOR FREE. .

Hmmmm, Bose has been in business since 1964. That means they've been in business for 55 years. I'm sure they give advice for free, too.

Verbal diarrhea and comically self-righteous indignation does not a cogent argument make, sorry.


Feel free to disagree, vehemently if you wish, but you could spare us your "oh poor me I'm just a PROFESSIONAL with a heart of gold trying to do a good deed promoting my product (even if indirectly)" routine.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #16 of 67 Old 08-20-2019, 06:09 PM
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Z,

The guy has not mentioned any brand, pricing or even his location.

If you want to see first class pimping visit Revel and JBL threads.

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post #17 of 67 Old 08-20-2019, 08:42 PM
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Z,

The guy has not mentioned any brand, pricing or even his location.

If you want to see first class pimping visit Revel and JBL threads.
Haha. The Harmon tree of life, with roots planted firmly in AVS! But .... what am I implying? I'm not telling.
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post #18 of 67 Old 08-20-2019, 08:57 PM
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check out axiom audio for on walls, as well as in walls with integrated back boxes

Main: Sony XBR75900E, Denon AVR-x4400, Denon POA-5200 (L/R(a) Goldenear supersat 60, (b)FW Boston acoustic Bravo 2. C Goldenear supersat 60C,
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post #19 of 67 Old 08-20-2019, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Z,

The guy has not mentioned any brand, pricing or even his location.

If you want to see first class pimping visit Revel and JBL threads.
That's true, he has not.

I just couldn't help finding all his pretensions of authority, both audio and aesthetic, absolutely hilarious.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #20 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post
I saw a guy getting god awful advice and stepped in to say it was BS.
Not sure he was getting bad advice and that it was BS to be honest.

The OP asked for pros and cons of in walls/on walls and I think he got it and you presented your thoughts on the in wall solution.

First recommendation was in wall, second was to consider a good soundbar and third was some small on walls.

All seemed like reasonable advice to me.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #21 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 11:24 AM
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Not sure he was getting bad advice and that it was BS to be honest.

The OP asked for pros and cons of in walls/on walls and I think he got it and you presented your thoughts on the in wall solution.

First recommendation was in wall, second was to consider a good soundbar and third was some small on walls.

All seemed like reasonable advice to me.
Not every comment or post was way off. However, bookshelf speakers mounted to a wall are not "on-wall" speakers, and the information being given about entry level bookshelf speakers or on walls being better than the in-walls and the following explanation of why, was BS.

Thus, the recommendation of mounting large (in comparison) bookshelf speakers onto a wall was way off the mark. Professionally speaking, no one in our industry would confuse an "on-wall" with a bookshelf mounted on a wall. Two totally different engineering principals and looks. Perhaps enthusiasts may look at them as the same, because it's a speaker on a wall, but that is simplistic and absolutely NOT correct.

If you would like me to go through an highlight the statements I'm referring to, I will do so - just ask me. When people make statements and give recommendations, but have no experience from which to actually make them, that is BS. And, no, having a pair of speakers or two does not mean someone knows about every kind of speaker available to do a project.
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post #22 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post
Not every comment or post was way off. However, bookshelf speakers mounted to a wall are not "on-wall" speakers, and the information being given about entry level bookshelf speakers or on walls being better than the in-walls and the following explanation of why, was BS.

Thus, the recommendation of mounting large (in comparison) bookshelf speakers onto a wall was way off the mark. Professionally speaking, no one in our industry would confuse an "on-wall" with a bookshelf mounted on a wall. Two totally different engineering principals and looks. Perhaps enthusiasts may look at them as the same, because it's a speaker on a wall, but that is simplistic and absolutely NOT correct.

If you would like me to go through an highlight the statements I'm referring to, I will do so - just ask me. When people make statements and give recommendations, but have no experience from which to actually make them, that is BS. And, no, having a pair of speakers or two does not mean someone knows about every kind of speaker available to do a project.
I have personal experience with the sealed Motion 8 which do come with on wall mounting hardware.

"Curved design means you can point sound directly toward the desired listening area for high or low wall mounting applications...5.3 x 22.5 x 5.6 in"

Obviously they would need a sub.

But in walls and soundbars are viable options and, yes, bookshelves mounted on wall mounts protrude significantly more though one could technically call them an on wall option IMHO.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #23 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by PrestigeAudio View Post
Thus, the recommendation of mounting large (in comparison) bookshelf speakers onto a wall was way off the mark. Professionally speaking, no one inyour industrywould confuse an "on-wall" with a bookshelf mounted on a wall.
OF COURSE NOT...if more consumers were aware of how much more convenient, better sounding, and LESS EXPENSIVE mounting compact bookshelf speakers are vs. in-walls, YOUR INDUSTRY would be out of business.

Doh!

So, yeah keep selling what you're selling.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)

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post #24 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
OF COURSE NOT...if more consumers were aware of how much more convenient, better sounding, and LESS EXPENSIVE mounting compact bookshelf speakers are vs. in-walls, YYOUR INDUSTRY would be out of business.

Doh!

So, yeah keep selling what you're selling.
Too be fair many in walls are less expensive than their bookshelf counterparts.

I personally don't have any in wall experience but the idea that you can't really test several at home and choose one, (as cutouts are not standardized in the industry to my knowledge), is reason enough to pass on them at least as a front three option.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #25 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by higgins02 View Post
It looks like towers or bookshelfs won't work due to WAF and being in a pathway to bathroom.
Yes, I agree with the Mrs....which I do with my own most of the time. Anyway, go with something chic, thin, pretty, and nice looking.

Check out the KEF T Series UltraThin (Only 1-7/16" Deep): https://us.kef.com/home-theater/home.../t-series.html




Martin Logan Motion SLM (1-7/8" deep) :https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/motion-slm




Definitive Technology Mythos XTR-50 (1-1/2" deep):https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...ck-each/1.html



Artison Portrait Dual Mono: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...trait&_sacat=0
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post #26 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 02:19 PM
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also check out: https://www.htd.com/VERSA-HTS1 for on wall (349) they have a smaller version for a surround (149)

Main: Sony XBR75900E, Denon AVR-x4400, Denon POA-5200 (L/R(a) Goldenear supersat 60, (b)FW Boston acoustic Bravo 2. C Goldenear supersat 60C,
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post #27 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Too be fair many in walls are less expensive than their bookshelf counterparts.
Well, obviously that depends on WHICH in-walls vs WHICH bookshelves...a top tier bookshelf vs an entry level in-wall will predictably close or reverse the price gap. But apples to apples? When say, a pair of Martin Logan LX16 can be had for $480 shipped, with $10 flat rate return shipping, why would anyone buy unheard a $500 (before installation costs) pair of in-walls that will be 10x harder to switch out if they aren't crazy about it?

Three most likely explanations:

1. Obsession with, or enslavement to, WAF. (The second category does deserve our sympathy.)

2. Complete ignorance of the marketplace combined with an inability to discern differing levels of sound quality due to inexperience.

3. Complete blind trust/gullibility towards some salesperson who talked them into buying the in-walls unheard, or after hearing them in a boutique store under super-ideal conditions probably without any chance to A/B against other competing in-walls by a variety of competing brands (many in-walls are sold by installers who will only carry one cheap brand and one "exclusive" brand, who usually don't even have a showroom, just glossy brochures, puffed up trade/industry certificates and claims of possessing "decades of experience in the industry that have borne vast reams of infallible EXPERT knowledge far beyond the comprehension of ordinary mortals outside of the industry").

It's a very predictable con game: concoct an "exclusive" or "elite" club that one claims longtime membership/training in, and offer the consumer the "benefit" of membership for a very hefty pricetag with the heftiness of the pricetag being presented (or implied) as PROOF of the exalted/exclusive nature of said club, conferring various ego-massaging nothings like "prestige" and "status." The victim, having sunken a large sum into it which cannot be easily recouped, is all too eager to avoid buyer's remorse and embarrassment so he will seek out validation from equally clueless friends/family/neighbors as well as eat up all the inevitable praise that the salesperson will dutifully and profusely shovel out after the system's been set up.

To be fair, this kind of sales psy-op is endemic with pretty much all luxury goods---fancy cars, designer/tailored clothes, "fine dining" restaurants, etc. It's all just a mind game...make up fantastically bogus reasons for the consumer to feel better about him/herself, and they'll buy anything at any price.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #28 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 04:00 PM
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In-walls have the advantage of being "infinite baffle" alignments. This is advantageous because it eliminates the cancellation effect from the reflection off the wall behind the speaker. Infinite baffles also gain some increase in midbass output. Audio system designer Anthony Grimani has written about this effect. He says this:

Quote:
You have two choices. Put a speaker more than 3 feet from the front wall of a room, or put the speaker in the front wall. I have been designing speaker baffle walls into as many rooms as possible during the last few years, because I just love the stunning effects of cleaner mid-bass. In addition, I like the fact that baffle walls reinforce the bass output of speakers. The added bass can be pulled out with appropriate equalization so that the speakers and amplifiers don’t have to work as hard to output the prodigious amount of bass required by modern films and music. With a baffle wall, 10 watts of power will do what 100 watts could barely do without the baffle!
http://www.pmiltd.com/published%20ar...ed%20Again.pdf

Note that he says 3 ft out from the wall or in-wall. The reason he doesn't say "on-wall" is because you get an edge diffraction as well as a baffle step effect. Much better off to put them IN the wall.

Dr. Toole also dedicates a whole section in his book to in-wall designs. Section 9.3 shows the in-room frequency response of speakers mounted in a wall vs on a wall vs in room. The in-walls are clearly the best.

Having said that, I will say that the "best" in-walls are enclosed in-walls. Imagine you're a speaker designer. You have 3 tools to design your speaker, the drivers the crossover, and the enclosure. Each of these has a massive impact on the final sound quality. If you design just the drivers and a crossover, and skip the enclosure, you've only designed 2/3's of the speaker. You've left the rest of the design in the hands of some unknown installer. The installer could be a professional, who knows what he's doing... or not. If that professional is someone like Mr. Prestige, you'll probably end up with an acceptable enclosure. But if you leave it to someone less knowledgeable, he could put it in a wall with insulation... or not. He could put it in a wall made of 1/2 drywall, glued and screwed to the studs... or not. He could put it in an exterior wall with full height stud columns, or he could put it in an interior wall that only goes to chair height. Or you could get any one of a bazillion other installations that are sub-optimal. The bottom line is that you've left 1/3 of the speaker design to someone else and you have no idea how it will be "enclosed." OTOH, if you design the enclosure integral to the speaker, you can completely control and optimize that part of the design.

Oh, and unenclosed in-walls also bleed sound into adjacent spaces. And they are more likely to vibrate and rattle the drywall and/or studs. Just sayin'...

Good luck and have fun.

Craig
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post #29 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 04:46 PM
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Although In-walls certainly have their pros and cons, I think Craig John summed it up very nicely. I personally just went with in walls for my surrounds using open back speakers. So my wall cavity is the box. I was willing to accept this design compromise as Craig alluded to i.e. the uncertainty of the enclosure size and quality, since it is only for surround speakers. The drastic improvement in aesthetics in my living room of having a flush mounted, unobtrusive wall colored grille, rather than a big honking box hanging off the wall, was well worth any potential imperfection arising from using my walls as the enclosure. Also, the large wall cavity enabled my small, reasonably priced in walls to be crossed as low as 60 Hz via Audysey calibration which I of course bumped to 80 Hz. The result is VERY capable surround speakers down to my 80 Hz crossover. As Craig mentioned, in wall is in many ways a superior alignment for sound quality. And yes, I paid extra to have the speaker mounted and the wires run....my time is more valuable than what I paid someone to do it. Everyone strikes their own balance on the value of time and money.

Also, even with the uncertainty and construction quality of using the wall as an enclosure, I'd take that option ten to 1 over a 1" thick on wall which will drastically neuter any low frequency capability.

In a main living space, aesthetics are likely quite important to many, and in walls offer potential sonics benefits while being the most aesthetically unobtrusive option for many. I might move in three years, and don't care. I'll either leave the speakers or pay someone $100 to patch the holes.

If I were doing in wall for LCR, I'd probably strongly consider speakers with full enclosures.



I went with Revel as I really appreciate their design philosophy of designing speakers that measure in such a way that correlates very strongly with sound quality. They have detailed Spinorama measurements available for all of their in wall options.
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post #30 of 67 Old 08-21-2019, 06:35 PM
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In wall enclosures are primarily to keep sound from the adjacent room as CJ stated.

There are some (few) that use the backbox to reflect sound forward.

The biggest knock on in walls are you can’t aim them.

Most in walls clamp to the drywall with “wings”. Now there are some larger that the front bezel screws into the wall stud.

Mike Miles
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