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post #1 of 22 Old 10-10-2019, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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noobtv's room measurement and speaker questions

Starting a new thread so as not to derail aarons915's KEF LS50 vs Revel M105 thread any more.

Just saving this quote for later:
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Absolutely you can EQ them. Dr. Toole frequently mentions that EQ can't fix a speaker with directivity issues but the R3 is very balanced on and off-axis so they are better than any speaker I've seen to EQ because of that. I actually EQ the 2k peak out of the LS50 as well and they sound better and aren't fatiguing after doing so. In the case of the R3, I would take a good spatial average around your listening position to get a good idea of your room curve. I take measurements from 6 different positions around my couch of each speaker and average those 12 measurements to get a good curve to EQ. The ideal target curve per Harman is about .4/.5 db per octave so it generally falls about 4 db from the bass to the treble so I would look at your room measurement and then EQ the mids about flat wherever you need to achieve that 4 db drop, it will probably be around 200-400Hz so still under the transition frequency mostly. If this is unclear, you can post your in-room measurement when you get them and I can explain it a little better but they can definitely be EQ'd, I've thought about grabbing a pair and trying to do the same.

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If you check the green line of the official R3 measurement, this should be somewhat close to your in-room response and you can see it's about 4 db higher at 300Hz than at 20K, it's cut off at 300Hz though, this line will rise and meet up with the bass by 100Hz, this means the typical room response is going to be closer to a 6-7 db drop from bass to treble, which will make it a bit laid back. So the easy way to do it would be to EQ them flat from about 300Hz and lower to keep that 4 db drop. You can also try to make it a constant slope from the highs to the bass, I'm honestly not sure which would be preferred but you could try both and see what you prefer. REW has tools to do either option in the EQ tab.

Once again, thanks a lot.

I had a go with the Umik last night, just to get things working. Unfortunately the usb cord was too short to make it to the MLP from my PC, but I could get it 1m from the front right speaker so at least I had a go at measuring something just to test the setup.

There's a pretty big dip at 50Hz, and when I went to the RTA tab there was a peak at 50Hz (mains hum?) so I wonder if Audyssey has measured that and EQ'd it down.

I didn't do a REW measurement with Audyssey disabled so I'll have a try with that later. Ordered a long USB cord so in a week I can measure the room properly with REW at the MLP.

The only thing I have to actually adjust the response is Audyssey XT32 as I don't usually use my PC as a source, not sure there's a way to accurately EQ my Ubuntu HTPC running Kodi.

I'll buy the MultiEQ app over the weekend and have a go at setting a custom curve.

If I lowered the EQ to make the R3 freq response at the MLP flat to 300Hz, then won't that make a 4dB dip in the on-axis at 300Hz? I guess it would be less than that with the reflections included. Not sure I'm understanding all this correctly, but I guess we're only trying to correct so the MLP is as close to perfect as possible, and everywhere else is a bit of a crapshoot.

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this means the typical room response is going to be closer to a 6-7 db drop from bass to treble, which will make it a bit laid back.
I thought the Harman preferred response was -2dB from 10Hz-1kHz, then -8 from 1kHz-20kHz, (as per this link, the pic at the bottom) which would make the R3 response brighter than that? I know I'm wrong because people say R3 is laid-back but what part of my understanding is wrong?

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post #2 of 22 Old 10-10-2019, 05:34 PM
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If you have XT32 and want to make your speakers brighter, just run it as normal.

XT32 boosts the top end as its default setting.

You can also tweak it using the Audyssey app.

BTW, I have the R3s (and LS50s). IMHO, they don't have a laidback sound because the top end is low. They actually have a slightly more extended high end than the LS50s in my measurements.

But all the new R series speakers appear to have been voiced with a slight dip just above 1khz. You can see it here:

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...nts&Itemid=153

My R3s have the same dip.

It's easy enough to fill this dip in if you feel the need.
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post #3 of 22 Old 10-10-2019, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noobtv View Post

The only thing I have to actually adjust the response is Audyssey XT32 as I don't usually use my PC as a source, not sure there's a way to accurately EQ my Ubuntu HTPC running Kodi.

I'll buy the MultiEQ app over the weekend and have a go at setting a custom curve.

If I lowered the EQ to make the R3 freq response at the MLP flat to 300Hz, then won't that make a 4dB dip in the on-axis at 300Hz? I guess it would be less than that with the reflections included. Not sure I'm understanding all this correctly, but I guess we're only trying to correct so the MLP is as close to perfect as possible, and everywhere else is a bit of a crapshoot.
I haven't messed with Audyssey but the app seems mandatory for custom curves so I would definitely get that and experiment. You're right that you have to be careful with EQ as to not mess up the On-axis sound but as the wavelengths get larger in the lower frequencies, the on and off-axis curves will be the same, you can see this in other Spinorama style measurements. Based on the R3 measurement, there is about a 2 db boost under 300Hz in the on-axis curve so that should be safe to cut. Before doing that I would take the spatial measurements I talked about and post your averaged graph just to see what it looks like. Similar to what Audyssey asks for, 6 positions or so around your listening position, each speaker individually measured and then averaged and I would smooth the average to 1/12 octave.

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Originally Posted by noobtv View Post
I thought the Harman preferred response was -2dB from 10Hz-1kHz, then -8 from 1kHz-20kHz, (as per this link, the pic at the bottom) which would make the R3 response brighter than that? I know I'm wrong because people say R3 is laid-back but what part of my understanding is wrong?
There are quite a few target curves floating around but this is the one that I generally use, the long dashes are what you see from the most highly rated speakers in Harman's double blind tests so it's a good baseline to start with.

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post #4 of 22 Old 10-10-2019, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot Steve.

I came across, and was very interested in, your posts before in the LS50 thread where you compared the LS50 and R3, especially where you said that you would go R3 unless you had two subs.

I only have a single sub ATM, I could get another but I'm reluctant to buy a speaker where two subs would be necessary, also that big 2kHz peak/resonance? looks bad to my inexperienced eye on the LS50 measurements and aarons915 even said he EQs it out to avoid listening fatigue. But people seem to love the LS50 so much that there must be some kind of magic to them.

It sounds like you prefer the LS50 except for the bass region, can I ask why? Is it because the imaging of R3 is any worse because of the crossover to the woofer (ie not a point source anymore)?

I haven't checked accurately but I think my hearing tops out around 16-17kHz so I probably don't need more than 20kHz anyway, lol!

I listen to a lot of bassy electronic music so I think I need a bit more meat than the LS50 can provide down low. Also my sub is 12" so I don't want to cross it over any higher than about 80Hz. For those reasons, R3 sounds very tempting on paper. I am reluctant to lose any sound quality when listening at less than 80dB however, as I rarely get to listen louder than that.

I did hear LS50 instore under vastly suboptimal conditions and without a sub for a very short time with music I don't know, and didn't like them then. Clearly they weren't given a proper chance at that time though.

Anyway I am still yet to properly audition either of them so it's all academic at this point.

Just clarifying, so you're saying that the 1kHz dip is why R3 sounds laidback?

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post #5 of 22 Old 10-10-2019, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

BTW, I have the R3s (and LS50s). IMHO, they don't have a laidback sound because the top end is low. They actually have a slightly more extended high end than the LS50s in my measurements.

But all the new R series speakers appear to have been voiced with a slight dip just above 1khz. You can see it here:
This is interesting, do you happen to have in room measurements of each speaker you could share? Hopefully spatially averaged and of each individual speaker to get a nice averaged response around your listening position.

I'm not sure what to believe as far as measurements, the soundstage measurements of the R11 are pretty close to the measurement in the whitepaper and it seems once again the small bookshelf measures better than all of the towers. If that 3rd party review is accurate about the 1-3k dip then that is most likely responsible for the laid back sound many talk about when hearing them.
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post #6 of 22 Old 10-10-2019, 07:17 PM
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The closest I have (without doing a full set of REWs) is from my Anthem's ARC measurements.

These are room-averaged, but were taken with different machines. The LS50 with a Paradigm PW Amp and mic, and the R3 with an MRX520. This may explain some of the high frequency differences.

As for preferences, I have the R3s in my main room and the LS50s in my secondary room. That could change.
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post #7 of 22 Old 10-10-2019, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I took the liberty of overlaying them. You can clearly see that 1-2kHz dip on the R3 that you were talking about.
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post #8 of 22 Old 10-10-2019, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
If that 3rd party review is accurate about the 1-3k dip then that is most likely responsible for the laid back sound many talk about when hearing them.
Which 3rd party review are you talking about here? Link please?

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post #9 of 22 Old 10-11-2019, 03:11 AM
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Target curves are one of the most useless things that people obsess over. Don't bother, almost every recording is different anyway. You better think about bass/treble regulator you can adjust easily, adapting to recordings.
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post #10 of 22 Old 10-11-2019, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
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Which 3rd party review are you talking about here? Link please?
https://thenextweb.com/plugged/2019/...rything-right/
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post #11 of 22 Old 10-11-2019, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Just in case anyone's interested, I plotted the difference between the CSL calibration and the factory MiniDSP calibration for my UMIK-1.
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post #12 of 22 Old 10-11-2019, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Target curves are one of the most useless things that people obsess over. Don't bother, almost every recording is different anyway. You better think about bass/treble regulator you can adjust easily, adapting to recordings.
I'm trying to find the sound signature that I'm prepared to spend thousands of dollars to upgrade to...

You're right about different recordings being very different, which is irritating, but I'd like to end up with a system where I'm pretty happy to not feel the need to adjust too much all the time.

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post #13 of 22 Old 10-11-2019, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noobtv View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aats View Post
Target curves are one of the most useless things that people obsess over. Don't bother, almost every recording is different anyway. You better think about bass/treble regulator you can adjust easily, adapting to recordings.
I'm trying to find the sound signature that I'm prepared to spend thousands of dollars to upgrade to...

You're right about different recordings being very different, which is irritating, but I'd like to end up with a system where I'm pretty happy to not feel the need to adjust too much all the time.
You have to, unless you listen to a very small amount of recordings that are similar in that regard.
if you don't want to adjust you need to measure anechoic if your speakers have good directivity and fix that (if there is anything to fix)
Then setup in the room and forget it, no need in adjusting. It will sound better with adjustment, but it will be fine. Maybe bass you want to set a specific level but otherwise it is a futile exercise.

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post #14 of 22 Old 10-11-2019, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aats View Post
Target curves are one of the most useless things that people obsess over. Don't bother, almost every recording is different anyway. You better think about bass/treble regulator you can adjust easily, adapting to recordings.
It depends on how you use them, I agree that many of the auto room EQ programs probably make good speakers sound worse but they can be useful if you also have anechoic data to back it up. In the case with the LS50's my room curve showed the same 2k resonance that the anechoic measurements show so I know it's safe to EQ that. Also, it shows you if your speaker is well behaved on and off-axis, if it is it will show a similar room curve to the one I linked above. Differences in recordings are irrelevant to this because we want a speaker to be neutral, if a recording is crap there isn't much you can do about it except use tone controls as you said.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
It depends on how you use them, I agree that many of the auto room EQ programs probably make good speakers sound worse but they can be useful if you also have anechoic data to back it up. In the case with the LS50's my room curve showed the same 2k resonance that the anechoic measurements show so I know it's safe to EQ that. Also, it shows you if your speaker is well behaved on and off-axis, if it is it will show a similar room curve to the one I linked above. Differences in recordings are irrelevant to this because we want a speaker to be neutral, if a recording is crap there isn't much you can do about it except use tone controls as you said.
If you want to fix speaker problem through EQ - measure it anechoic response (or try to get something resembling it by using some technique). No need to involve room in this.
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post #16 of 22 Old 10-11-2019, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
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If you want to fix speaker problem through EQ - measure it anechoic response (or try to get something resembling it by using some technique). No need to involve room in this.
I mentioned that but I like to see the problem manifest itself in my room measurement as well, many things look like they might be problems but are minor when you measure the average. Also, under the transition frequency, anechoic measurements are useless and you have to measure your room to fix the bass. Both measurements can be useful if you know what to look for.
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post #17 of 22 Old 10-11-2019, 03:50 PM
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In the case of the R3, the measurements from the nextweb review linked above, and the R11 anechoic measurements from Soundstage I linked to earlier match those that Anthem ARC came up with so I have no issue EQing a bit higher than I normally would since I prefer a flat response where the dip is.
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post #18 of 22 Old 10-12-2019, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
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I mentioned that but I like to see the problem manifest itself in my room measurement as well, many things look like they might be problems but are minor when you measure the average.
The whole point of taking room out of measurements is looking for problems that would not manifest themselves in in-room measurements but might be audible (above low frequencies).
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Quote:
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The whole point of taking room out of measurements is looking for problems that would not manifest themselves in in-room measurements but might be audible (above low frequencies).
Just to get this back into something actually useful for the OP, if he does in fact find the R3 to be laid back but wants to buy them and EQ them, how do you propose he does that with the anechoic measurements?
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Quote:
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Just to get this back into something actually useful for the OP, if he does in fact find the R3 to be laid back but wants to buy them and EQ them, how do you propose he does that with the anechoic measurements?
Tries to make them measure better than they are without correction, obviously.
The same way some active speakers with electronics correct their FR using anechoic measurements.
But at first he should've found the source of this "sound signature", and if it can be fixed with EQ.
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post #21 of 22 Old 10-12-2019, 04:28 PM
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The various measurements all show a consistent dip around 1khz, both on and off-axis. KEF generally know what they are doing so I assume this is a deliberate voicing.

If you prefer them without the dip, you can use Room EQ such as ARC, Dirac or XT32.

Or you could use a MiniDSP to tickle the response.

It should be very easy.

Certainly my Anthem does a fine job. If I choose to leave the dip, I just change the correction range.

This is how DSP speakers such as the LS50W, Neumann KH80, Kii and D&D get their flat response.
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post #22 of 22 Old 10-13-2019, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice everyone.

Didn't get to audition them last weekend but I may get a chance to this weekend.
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