Stupid [serious] question : What makes expensive speakers better? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 100Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 183 Old 10-20-2019, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Question Stupid [serious] question : What makes expensive speakers better?

Hello!

I've been doing some research and I've identified two important speaker characteristics: (1) the volume that they can attain and (2) the frequency response (flat is usually good). My puzzlement comes from the fact that you can get speakers that play loud and have a flat frequency response for maybe 500$ (flat at least until you hit the low range), and yet some speakers cost 10,000$ or more. Some of these expensive speakers have a lot of research that go into them, are beautiful and made of exotic materials, and have a cost due to the brand or "cool" factor, which I understand; however, I suspect many audio enthusiasts wouldn't buy these expensive speakers if they didn't sincerely believe they sounded better. Seems like a lot of blind tests also support that there is such a thing as a "better" speaker, even once you hit the 2000$+ range.

What makes a better speaker? This is a serious question. I'm not asking how much to spend on speakers, or when do diminishing returns come into play, or what brands have good value, etc. I'm also aware that you can get terrible speakers for 5000$ and great speakers for 500$, but clearly the money in the high end must have some acoustics benefit.

So let me boil this down to a few questions:

1. What acoustics qualities of speakers are important beyond (1) volume and (2) frequency response? (I suspect there is a lot more, and that I'm simply ignorant. Things like distortion, crossover?).
2. How do these qualities relate to the cost of speakers (i.e., how do they increase price? Is it research? Using expensive materials?)
3. Which of these qualities can be measured objectively? Which can only be measured subjectively? I'm not making a judgment call here that subjecting rating is bad, I'm simply inquiring whether these qualities can be assessed objectively. I know frequency response can be measured, so I reckon some other elements but me measurable.

Last edited by Snoochers; 10-20-2019 at 07:50 PM.
Snoochers is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 183 Old 10-20-2019, 08:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 1,681
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1104 Post(s)
Liked: 1288
Basic build materials like quality of cabinets, drivers and crossovers are just part of it. Research and development, engineering staff, design and testing facilities also factor into the cost.

Look at this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...nce-shows.html

Read about the Revel Salon2 and JBL M2 here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...ever-made.html

Read Dr. Floyd Toole's book and the free information on this site: https://routledgetextbooks.com/textbooks/9781138921368/
RobZL1 likes this.
Rex Anderson is offline  
post #3 of 183 Old 10-20-2019, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Basic build materials like quality of cabinets, drivers and crossovers are just part of it. Research and development, engineering staff, design and testing facilities also factor into the cost.

Look at this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...nce-shows.html

Read about the Revel Salon2 and JBL M2 here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...ever-made.html

Read Dr. Floyd Toole's book and the free information on this site: https://routledgetextbooks.com/textbooks/9781138921368/
Thank you! This is helpful and I'll look into these resources. Certainly the variables your mentioned work into the cost, but I'm still curious what variables (acoustic qualities) make one speaker better vs. another, irrespective of cost.
Snoochers is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 183 Old 10-20-2019, 08:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 1,681
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1104 Post(s)
Liked: 1288
Learn about the spinorama measurements. The information is in the references I listed.
Rex Anderson is offline  
post #5 of 183 Old 10-20-2019, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Learn about the spinorama measurements. The information is in the references I listed.
Thanks. I've just taken a poke at it and I already see a bunch of variables that relate to my question: response, Listening Window, early reflections, power, directivity. I suspect there is more. I'll keep digging. In the mean time, if someone has a concise bullet-point list of what "makes a good speaker" acoustically, I'd love to see it!
Snoochers is offline  
post #6 of 183 Old 10-20-2019, 08:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 1,681
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1104 Post(s)
Liked: 1288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoochers View Post
Thanks. I've just taken a poke at it and I already see a bunch of variables that relate to my question: response, Listening Window, early reflections, power, directivity. I suspect there is more. I'll keep digging. In the mean time, if someone has a concise bullet-point list of what "makes a good speaker" acoustically, I'd love to see it!

All the information you want has been posted many times. Do some searches and read anything posted by Dr. Floyd Toole. Get the book and read it.
Rex Anderson is offline  
post #7 of 183 Old 10-20-2019, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
All the information you want has been posted many times. Do some searches and read anything posted by Dr. Floyd Toole. Get the book and read it.
Thanks. I will investigate further! There must be a discrete list of the variables that represent "good sound", which presumably can be presented concisely (even in bullet form). I haven't been able to track that down yet, thus this post. I'm grateful for your suggestions and am going down the rabbit hole. In the mean time, if someone knows the relevant variables, I'd be grateful for a summary. A few things were listed in the first link you sent, but I'm not certain if that is everything.
Snoochers is offline  
post #8 of 183 Old 10-20-2019, 09:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
fbov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bushnell's Basin, NY
Posts: 1,642
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 330 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoochers View Post
... 1. What acoustics qualities of speakers are important beyond (1) volume and (2) frequency response? (I suspect there is a lot more, and that I'm simply ignorant. Things like distortion, crossover?).
2. How do these qualities relate to the cost of speakers (i.e., how do they increase price? Is it research? Using expensive materials?)
3. Which of these qualities can be measured objectively? Which can only be measured subjectively? ...
1) For loudspeaker drivers, the order is non-linear distortion (the one you're missing), linear distortion (frequency response), and SPL capability, each over the ~10 octave audible range. At higher frequencies, directivity becomes important.

The drivers then require mounting in a vibrationally inert box (won't buzz, even at high power) that's configured to optimize driver output (porting, sub-chambers), and connected to an electrical circuit (crossover) that makes sure the drivers "play nice."

2) Drivers with low distortion and high SPL capability have lots of exotic parts to gain added excursion, or minimize dome mass. They're also a small market, so economies of scale are limited. The boxes for them are complex, some with intricate bracing to damp vibrations, and finished like fine furniture. That all takes time, and time is money.

And then there's the speaker's interaction with the room, a result of all the things above plus crossover design, selection of crossover frequencies, and the shape of the wave interference pattern(s) when two drivers produce the same frequency. Engineering quality drivers is straightforward. Designing crossovers is part science, part art.

3) lots of this can be measured. What cannot be measured "well" is the human response to a loudspeaker in a room. You'll hear terms like "hear-related transfer function" mentioned in measurements, because our ears don't hear things the way a microphone does. It's an attempt to integrate measurements with human anatomy, get closer to "what you hear." However, your ears are already well equipped to "measure" it.

Set up a pair of speakers in the sweet spots in a room and listen. The best speakers disappear, replaced with a broad expanse of sound in front of, and around you. In Toole, these sensations are called Apparent Source Width (ASW) and Listener Envelopment (LE).

Now, what's your application?

The best stereo speakers are not the best home theater speakers. The ASW/LE stuff is much less important in multichannel applications because there's spatial information in the 5-channel program. You also have 5 speakers (or more) contributing to SPL, not just two, and they don't need the bass extension of a stereo speaker. Subwoofers make more deep bass than any full-range speaker.

Make sense?

Have fun,
Frank
fbov is offline  
post #9 of 183 Old 10-20-2019, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by fbov View Post
1) For loudspeaker drivers, the order is non-linear distortion (the one you're missing), linear distortion (frequency response), and SPL capability, each over the ~10 octave audible range. At higher frequencies, directivity becomes important.

The drivers then require mounting in a vibrationally inert box (won't buzz, even at high power) that's configured to optimize driver output (porting, sub-chambers), and connected to an electrical circuit (crossover) that makes sure the drivers "play nice."

2) Drivers with low distortion and high SPL capability have lots of exotic parts to gain added excursion, or minimize dome mass. They're also a small market, so economies of scale are limited. The boxes for them are complex, some with intricate bracing to damp vibrations, and finished like fine furniture. That all takes time, and time is money.

And then there's the speaker's interaction with the room, a result of all the things above plus crossover design, selection of crossover frequencies, and the shape of the wave interference pattern(s) when two drivers produce the same frequency. Engineering quality drivers is straightforward. Designing crossovers is part science, part art.

3) lots of this can be measured. What cannot be measured "well" is the human response to a loudspeaker in a room. You'll hear terms like "hear-related transfer function" mentioned in measurements, because our ears don't hear things the way a microphone does. It's an attempt to integrate measurements with human anatomy, get closer to "what you hear." However, your ears are already well equipped to "measure" it.

Set up a pair of speakers in the sweet spots in a room and listen. The best speakers disappear, replaced with a broad expanse of sound in front of, and around you. In Toole, these sensations are called Apparent Source Width (ASW) and Listener Envelopment (LE).

Now, what's your application?

The best stereo speakers are not the best home theater speakers. The ASW/LE stuff is much less important in multichannel applications because there's spatial information in the 5-channel program. You also have 5 speakers (or more) contributing to SPL, not just two, and they don't need the bass extension of a stereo speaker. Subwoofers make more deep bass than any full-range speaker.

Make sense?

Have fun,
Frank
Making sense so far yes, thank you! Lots to learn
Snoochers is offline  
post #10 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 03:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,261
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1244 Post(s)
Liked: 1083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoochers View Post
Making sense so far yes, thank you! Lots to learn
Also the room is what will impact the sound the most, install room treatment accordingly.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Panasonic TX65EZ952B, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
post #11 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 03:45 AM
Senior Member
 
ncsercs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Westmont, IL
Posts: 424
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 178 Post(s)
Liked: 101
What makes expensive speakers better?

One word and one word only. Marketing.

Nick

Every day I beat my own previous record for the number of consecutive
days I've stayed alive. - George Carlin - 1996
ncsercs is offline  
post #12 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 08:35 AM
Senior Member
 
N.REED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Ky
Posts: 263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 32
This is simple to me. Very good speakers don't sound like speakers at all. With a good recording, the speakers disappear.

Some cheap speakers can do this.

A lot of expensive speakers do this.
BillP, fbov, Dark Matter and 1 others like this.
N.REED is online now  
post #13 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 09:39 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 13,020
Mentioned: 226 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7307 Post(s)
Liked: 5591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoochers View Post
What makes a better speaker? This is a serious question. I'm not asking how much to spend on speakers, or when do diminishing returns come into play, or what brands have good value, etc. I'm also aware that you can get terrible speakers for 5000$ and great speakers for 500$, but clearly the money in the high end must have some acoustics benefit.
Above say $2000 or $3000 it's mainly just sales/marketing psychology, a.k.a. giving the consumer an artful ego-massage, sometimes subtle (elaborate claims of exotic and superior technology) and sometimes crass (bling-bling products with words like "Elite" and "Prestige").

Same with any other luxury items.

Google "Veblen goods" and it will tell you everything you need to know.
Legairre, Dark Matter and Lp85253 like this.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
post #14 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 03:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,442
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoochers View Post
Thanks. I will investigate further! There must be a discrete list of the variables that represent "good sound", which presumably can be presented concisely (even in bullet form). I haven't been able to track that down yet, thus this post. I'm grateful for your suggestions and am going down the rabbit hole. In the mean time, if someone knows the relevant variables, I'd be grateful for a summary. A few things were listed in the first link you sent, but I'm not certain if that is everything.
The links Rex posted are great threads which will take quite a long time to read but they are worth it. Going back to the Spinorama, Harman has a study where they were able to predict subjective preference through the Spinorama measurement that correlated almost perfectly (.995) with speakers of similar bass response and a .87 correlation when towers and bookshelf speakers were mixed together. Basically you're looking for the listening window to be as neutral (flat) as possible and the early reflections curve to be smoothly declining or constant directivity. The sound power should also be smooth and will generally look like the early reflections curve but lower in amplitude. Keep in mind not everyone agrees with this, I'm just stating what the current research says but to my knowledge no one has put forth any evidence that there are other factors that make a speaker sound good.
aarons915 is online now  
post #15 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 04:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,482
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2137 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Above say $2000 or $3000 it's mainly just sales/marketing psychology, a.k.a. giving the consumer an artful ego-massage, sometimes subtle (elaborate claims of exotic and superior technology) and sometimes crass (bling-bling products with words like "Elite" and "Prestige").

Same with any other luxury items.

Google "Veblen goods" and it will tell you everything you need to know.
i equate it to watches sometimes.. what makes a $20,000 rolex "better" than a $3,000 rolex ?.. not much besides ego and resale value (highly overrated , imo).. speakers are very much in the same vein ...

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
Lp85253 is online now  
post #16 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 04:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Bill-99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,594
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 872 Post(s)
Liked: 549
Good info here. I will add as well that as the price goes up, the rate of improvement usually diminishes. For some people with deeper pockets and keen interest, these improvements may be seen as a good value. For others, not so much.
BillP and Lp85253 like this.


Bill-99 is offline  
post #17 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 05:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,442
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked: 779
I don't really agree that expensive speakers are all marketing and nothing more in all cases. With some high end brands that don't sound very good sure but I consider Salon 2s to be very expensive but there are no speakers to my knowledge that sound better at cheaper prices, or more expensive for that matter. It costs a lot of money to make robust tower cabinets with a lot of low end extension like the Salon 2. Of course you could save a lot of money and buy the Gem 2 at less than half the cost and integrate a few quality subs and come very close to the Salon 2, which is what I would do but that is 1 example where spending double nets you real gains. Same story with the M126 and F228, 4k vs 10k but the F228 have real benefits over the bookshelf in terms of bass response and a 3-way vs 2-way speaker. I don't own Revel speakers for the record, I'm just using them as examples, most brands have similar situations between product lines.
Rex Anderson likes this.
aarons915 is online now  
post #18 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 05:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
shivaji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: So. California
Posts: 2,530
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1228 Post(s)
Liked: 1203
I have always liked the design philosophy of Rockport Technologies.

head_unit, Class A and Matt2026 like this.

Last edited by shivaji; 10-22-2019 at 05:46 PM.
shivaji is online now  
post #19 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
The links Rex posted are great threads which will take quite a long time to read but they are worth it. Going back to the Spinorama, Harman has a study where they were able to predict subjective preference through the Spinorama measurement that correlated almost perfectly (.995) with speakers of similar bass response and a .87 correlation when towers and bookshelf speakers were mixed together. Basically you're looking for the listening window to be as neutral (flat) as possible and the early reflections curve to be smoothly declining or constant directivity. The sound power should also be smooth and will generally look like the early reflections curve but lower in amplitude. Keep in mind not everyone agrees with this, I'm just stating what the current research says but to my knowledge no one has put forth any evidence that there are other factors that make a speaker sound good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
I don't really agree that expensive speakers are all marketing and nothing more in all cases. With some high end brands that don't sound very good sure but I consider Salon 2s to be very expensive but there are no speakers to my knowledge that sound better at cheaper prices, or more expensive for that matter. It costs a lot of money to make robust tower cabinets with a lot of low end extension like the Salon 2. Of course you could save a lot of money and buy the Gem 2 at less than half the cost and integrate a few quality subs and come very close to the Salon 2, which is what I would do but that is 1 example where spending double nets you real gains. Same story with the M126 and F228, 4k vs 10k but the F228 have real benefits over the bookshelf in terms of bass response and a 3-way vs 2-way speaker. I don't own Revel speakers for the record, I'm just using them as examples, most brands have similar situations between product lines.
Thank you very much for your contribution, and thanks to everyone else so far. It has been most helpful! I'm not an audiophile (yet?) but I specialize in measurement in another field and your first post was very helpful.

I'm leaning towards getting smaller speakers with subs instead of towers, since this allows me to go a "grade" up for the bookshelves. This assumes my room isn't too big. Your second comment was helpful in this regard, although damn I just looked at the Gem 2 and they're a bit pricey. Sounds like you think the M126 is a good set of bookshelves as well? More in my price range...
Snoochers is offline  
post #20 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 05:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,442
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoochers View Post
Thank you very much for your contribution, and thanks to everyone else so far. It has been most helpful! I'm not an audiophile (yet?) but I specialize in measurement in another field and your first post was very helpful.

I'm leaning towards getting smaller speakers with subs instead of towers, since this allows me to go a "grade" up for the bookshelves. This assumes my room isn't too big. Your second comment was helpful in this regard, although damn I just looked at the Gem 2 and they're a bit pricey. Sounds like you think the M126 is a good set of bookshelves as well? More in my price range...
I personally think bookshelves with subs make more sense for most people and are much more cost effective, I wouldn't personally pay over double for towers vs bookshelves as in the above examples but some people don't wants subs so towers make more sense for them. The M126 are probably really good bookshelves but I haven't heard them and I can't say if they're worth it over say the M106 at half their price. There are quite a few bookshelf speakers in the 1-2k price range that would make a really good system with some good subwoofers. I personally think spending more than that on bookshelf speakers is where the diminishing returns really set in but you have to decide that for yourself.
Matt2026 and Lp85253 like this.
aarons915 is online now  
post #21 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
I personally think bookshelves with subs make more sense for most people and are much more cost effective, I wouldn't personally pay over double for towers vs bookshelves as in the above examples but some people don't wants subs so towers make more sense for them. The M126 are probably really good bookshelves but I haven't heard them and I can't say if they're worth it over say the M106 at half their price. There are quite a few bookshelf speakers in the 1-2k price range that would make a really good system with some good subwoofers. I personally think spending more than that on bookshelf speakers is where the diminishing returns really set in but you have to decide that for yourself.
Do you mean 1k-2k per speaker or per pair? Revel seems sweet but they seem a bit hard to get in Canada. I wouldn't mind trying a Canadian brand, maybe Paradigm, PSB, Bryston, or Totem.
Snoochers is offline  
post #22 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 07:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,442
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoochers View Post
Do you mean 1k-2k per speaker or per pair? Revel seems sweet but they seem a bit hard to get in Canada. I wouldn't mind trying a Canadian brand, maybe Paradigm, PSB, Bryston, or Totem.
Per pair. PSB has a very similar design philosophy as Revel, I would definitely look at them. It would be even better if a place near you had PSB and Revel to compare. KEF also has the LS50 and R3 in that price range.
Dark Matter likes this.
aarons915 is online now  
post #23 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Per pair. PSB has a very similar design philosophy as Revel, I would definitely look at them. It would be even better if a place near you had PSB and Revel to compare. KEF also has the LS50 and R3 in that price range.
Thanks. I'm looking at the Imagine B Bookshelf from PSB. Axiom I suppose is also in the cards. They have the M5HP speakers, but I don't think Axiom is as high-end, not sure.
Snoochers is offline  
post #24 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 07:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,442
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoochers View Post
Thanks. I'm looking at the Imagine B Bookshelf from PSB. Axiom I suppose is also in the cards. They have the M5HP speakers, but I don't think Axiom is as high-end, not sure.
The Imagine B is what I would go with, Soundstage has some of both including the M5HP in their measurements, the PSB are much smoother to my eyes. Integrate a couple good subs with them and you'll have a good system.
aarons915 is online now  
post #25 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
The Imagine B is what I would go with, Soundstage has some of both including the M5HP in their measurements, the PSB are much smoother to my eyes. Integrate a couple good subs with them and you'll have a good system.
Oh they also have the PSB W-LCR2 in-wall speakers. Not as versatile as the bookshelf speakers, but they seem to have more drivers and might be interesting. I'd be curious to know if you have any thoughts.

And... while your here, if you have any thoughts on the Prestige 15B or Bryston Mini T.... Hopefully these are my last questions!
Snoochers is offline  
post #26 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 08:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 1,681
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1104 Post(s)
Liked: 1288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoochers View Post
Do you mean 1k-2k per speaker or per pair? Revel seems sweet but they seem a bit hard to get in Canada. I wouldn't mind trying a Canadian brand, maybe Paradigm, PSB, Bryston, or Totem.

Not all brands offer what Revel does, i.e. flat/neutral response on and off axis, wide dispersion etc. Try to find measurement (spinorama) data for any speaker you are considering. The current generation of Paradigm speakers are "voiced", i.e. not flat/neutral on and off axis. It is good to compare apples to apples price wise, but helps to see spin data to know what you are listening to.
Rex Anderson is offline  
post #27 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 08:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,442
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoochers View Post
Oh they also have the PSB W-LCR2 in-wall speakers. Not as versatile as the bookshelf speakers, but they seem to have more drivers and might be interesting. I'd be curious to know if you have any thoughts.

And... while your here, if you have any thoughts on the Prestige 15B or Bryston Mini T.... Hopefully these are my last questions!
Not sure about the In walls but the other 2 are both on Soundstage if you want to check them out: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...=16&Itemid=140

The 15b don't look very good and the Mini T aren't bad but I think they might be a bit bright based on the measurement. PSB is really hard to beat among the Canadian brands, I'm not sure why they aren't more popular on these forums because they seem to be as good as any of the top brands that are discussed.
aarons915 is online now  
post #28 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Not all brands offer what Revel does, i.e. flat/neutral response on and off axis, wide dispersion etc. Try to find measurement (spinorama) data for any speaker you are considering. The current generation of Paradigm speakers are "voiced", i.e. not flat/neutral on and off axis. It is good to compare apples to apples price wise, but helps to see spin data to know what you are listening to.
I love the idea of the Revel stats. They seem fantastic. The only issue is finding them in Canada, and also the premium paid for shipping and duty and such. Was leaning towards Canadian, but am open minded. The dynaudio Contour 20 also caught my eye, but it is a pretty big cost with the currency and the shipping etc. So I was looking more at PSB, Axiom, Bryston, Totem, and Paradigm. I am thinking about 1-2k per speaker for LCR in a home theater with subs. Some are quite a bit cheaper, for example Axiom is about 650 a speaker, but I suspect it is less "good", but hard to say.

I've looked at some data on the soundstagenetwork website, but they're not all measured of course. Where can I get spinorama data?
Snoochers is offline  
post #29 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Not sure about the In walls but the other 2 are both on Soundstage if you want to check them out: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...=16&Itemid=140

The 15b don't look very good and the Mini T aren't bad but I think they might be a bit bright based on the measurement. PSB is really hard to beat among the Canadian brands, I'm not sure why they aren't more popular on these forums because they seem to be as good as any of the top brands that are discussed.
Thanks I've been looking at the data, but I'm a bit of a dunce when it comes to this stuff. You took the time to compare them yourself? That is much appreciated! one annoying thing is that the Imagine B Bookshelf actually is not measured....
Snoochers is offline  
post #30 of 183 Old 10-22-2019, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Not sure about the In walls but the other 2 are both on Soundstage if you want to check them out: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...=16&Itemid=140

The 15b don't look very good and the Mini T aren't bad but I think they might be a bit bright based on the measurement. PSB is really hard to beat among the Canadian brands, I'm not sure why they aren't more popular on these forums because they seem to be as good as any of the top brands that are discussed.
This is best I could find on the PSB imagine bookshelves. The issue is that it is a different website so a bit hard to compare for me:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements

Another question is whether these would be powerful to be LCR in a home theatre which I imagine will end up being rather large (27*19*9 or the like). I've done the math and seems like they could get loud enough, but maybe I'm wrong?
Snoochers is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off