What makes a flat frequency response preferred? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 74 Old 11-08-2019, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
NAD started in 1972 and garnered a strong reputation starting in Europe for excellent price/value stereo amps and receivers.

Today they are based in Canada and have to some degree lost their price/value mantel, especially on AVRs.

If Dave at Ascend thinks bi wiring is nonsense I am not one to disagree!
Dave said that?

Hey, I was born in 1972 myself but have not yet garnered a strong reputation for value yet alone price
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post #32 of 74 Old 11-08-2019, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
Well from a strictly reproduction standpoint a flat response is best as it more accurately represents what the artist intended. That said not everyone likes a flat response, as you have indicated. Many like the "Harman Curve" or "Harman Target" which is a boost to the low end and a bit of a boost and then gradual roll off above 2500 khz. But in the end what matters is what sounds best to you. Me personally when given the option I tend to boost low end a bit on mid and a bit on the high end. Most curves boost the low end because it helps at low to medium volume levels, but it can be "boomy" at higher volumes, but it also depends on what is producing the low end. Boomy low end can also mean there is distortion on the low end, so some subs that can play with authority down low, for HT purposes, can play music at loud volumes and not sound "boomy", and of course the room your in has a massive impact on the sound, you could have nulls or room gain or reflections etc. and muddy and ruin the sound.
You are confusing anechoic and in-room response. A speaker should have flat on-axis anechoic response because you want the speaker's output to exactly equal the input signal. However, the in-room response of an anechoically flat speaker will have the downward tilt, similar to the "Harman Curve". The two are not mutually exclusive, and in fact go hand-in hand.
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post #33 of 74 Old 11-08-2019, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bochoss View Post
You are confusing anechoic and in-room response. A speaker should have flat on-axis anechoic response because you want the speaker's output to exactly equal the input signal. However, the in-room response of an anechoically flat speaker will have the downward tilt, similar to the "Harman Curve". The two are not mutually exclusive, and in fact go hand-in hand.
Wait a minute, if the anechoic response is flat, then the in room response will have upward slope (bright) because wood floors, walls, glass windows reflect high freq?
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post #34 of 74 Old 11-08-2019, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kyzer soze View Post
Do you live near Rythmik? If so you should give @enricoclaudio a call (he works for rythmik) he's got Ascend Sierra towers in his home. You could hear Ascend speakers and Rythmik subs.
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post #35 of 74 Old 11-08-2019, 06:44 PM
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@Vikram You should buy (or demo) a flat response speaker to know yourself if you like it or not. New to this hobby? There's no better way to start.
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post #36 of 74 Old 11-08-2019, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
@Vikram You should buy (or demo) a flat response speaker to know yourself if you like it or not. New to this hobby? There's no better way to start.
Thanks, yes I'm planning to audition Ascend Sierra vs Revel Concerta2 M16 vs Wharfdale Evo 4.1
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post #37 of 74 Old 11-08-2019, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
I've owned NAD, my next AVR will be a Marantz without question.
Actually, I just realized that Marantz is just Arcam spelled backwards!
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post #38 of 74 Old 11-08-2019, 07:34 PM
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flat in chamber is totally different than flat in room. flat in room sounds like crap. in room most prefer a downward sloping curve from 0hz to 100khz.


attached is a very neutral in room curve of my focals and rythmik subs. this measurement is very pleasing.
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP

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post #39 of 74 Old 11-08-2019, 08:02 PM
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this graph is my maggie lrs w/out subs. they measure poorly imo...but they sound amazing in my space. I might have better graphs somewhere on my pc, but this graph shows left and right and both (w/out subs) they dont go very loud or very low but did I already say amazing.
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #40 of 74 Old 11-09-2019, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
I did find the NAD T 758 V3 AVR on Crutchfield that is in my $1500 budget but the Marantz SR6013 is $899
NAD make pretty good amps and their AVR's are well regarded for good SQ, but having Dirac live is their big selling point. Dirac followed by ARC (exclusive to Anthem) are said to be the best available room correction on the market and both can be customized. On the more budget friendly side I think Audyssey XT32 does a pretty nice job and the remote app now lets you customize. Once you get into the mid-level units (X3500 and up or SR 5013 and up) you start falling on to units with robust power supplies and respectable audio components. Denon and Marantz have yearly cycles so most previous year models can be had at 40-50% discount or can be purchased as refurbs at significant discount. NAD and Anthem are rarely if ever on sale and the discount isn't that big if and when they do, but they do make good quality stuff.
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post #41 of 74 Old 11-09-2019, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Dave said that?

Hey, I was born in 1972 myself but have not yet garnered a strong reputation for value yet alone price
Well, if he didn't include a second set of posts for biwiring on the brand new 2EX it tells me he thought it a superfluous addition.
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post #42 of 74 Old 11-09-2019, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
flat in chamber is totally different than flat in room. flat in room sounds like crap. in room most prefer a downward sloping curve from 0hz to 100khz.


attached is a very neutral in room curve of my focals and rythmik subs. this measurement is very pleasing.
Very true from my experience of Sony AVR - when it makes EQ flat in room, sounds like crap
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post #43 of 74 Old 11-09-2019, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
NAD make pretty good amps and their AVR's are well regarded for good SQ, but having Dirac live is their big selling point. Dirac followed by ARC (exclusive to Anthem) are said to be the best available room correction on the market and both can be customized. On the more budget friendly side I think Audyssey XT32 does a pretty nice job and the remote app now lets you customize. Once you get into the mid-level units (X3500 and up or SR 5013 and up) you start falling on to units with robust power supplies and respectable audio components. Denon and Marantz have yearly cycles so most previous year models can be had at 40-50% discount or can be purchased as refurbs at significant discount. NAD and Anthem are rarely if ever on sale and the discount isn't that big if and when they do, but they do make good quality stuff.
Then I'll get the SR6013
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post #44 of 74 Old 11-09-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Wait a minute, if the anechoic response is flat, then the in room response will have upward slope (bright) because wood floors, walls, glass windows reflect high freq?
Other way 'round. Speakers radiate like a lantern in the lower frequencies and beam like a flashlight in the higher frequencies. As such, you get much more reflected sound in the lower frequencies, which causes in room responses to have a downward slope.
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post #45 of 74 Old 11-09-2019, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Wait a minute, if the anechoic response is flat, then the in room response will have upward slope (bright) because wood floors, walls, glass windows reflect high freq?
No, the opposite. In-room response slopes downward for two reasons:

1.) The total sound power from the speaker is downward tilting. Remember, frequency response is only flat on-axis. As you move off axis, the HF energy drops off faster than LF. Bass is omni-directional. HF is very directional. Think of how a speaker sounds from behind the speaker. You will mostly hear bass.

2.) Your room absorbs HF more easily than LF. Sure, a wood floor will reflect HF, but it will reflect LF too (mostly). Any fabrics, drapes, carpet, cushions, will absorb HF more than LF. Your room size is also resonant at LFs, which amplifies bass.
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post #46 of 74 Old 11-14-2019, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking for recommendations for a good set of headphones having a 3.5 mm jack. Needs to be around $20. For my daughter to use in class -- appears that teachers are now strapping kids to educational videos on chromebooks in school instead of teaching!
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post #47 of 74 Old 11-15-2019, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Then I'll get the SR6013
The NAD 758 v3 is $999 at Crutchfield and other sellers. Might be worth considering for the included Dirac Live
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post #48 of 74 Old 11-15-2019, 04:53 AM
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IDK but I must not prefer it- I like heavily boosted bass especially infrasonics, and the only speakers I can handle are those considered too warm or veiled around here.

My parents have a system with a flat response, and I can't sit in the seat directly in front of them unless it's turned down.
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post #49 of 74 Old 11-15-2019, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Looking for recommendations for a good set of headphones having a 3.5 mm jack. Needs to be around $20. For my daughter to use in class -- appears that teachers are now strapping kids to educational videos on chromebooks in school instead of teaching!
Koss Porta Pro X
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post #50 of 74 Old 11-15-2019, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, looks great.
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post #51 of 74 Old 11-15-2019, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Looking for recommendations for a good set of headphones having a 3.5 mm jack. Needs to be around $20. For my daughter to use in class -- appears that teachers are now strapping kids to educational videos on chromebooks in school instead of teaching!
I bought some under $20 headphones from Monoprice that they don't make any more but the do have these so likely very similar.


https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8324
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post #52 of 74 Old 11-15-2019, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Looking for recommendations for a good set of headphones having a 3.5 mm jack. Needs to be around $20. For my daughter to use in class -- appears that teachers are now strapping kids to educational videos on chromebooks in school instead of teaching!
Seems like they do have the headphones I bought after all.

They fold flat.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_...IaAsE3EALw_wcB
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post #53 of 74 Old 11-15-2019, 05:32 PM
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I like my NAD, but since it needs to get serviced, I've been eyeing the Marantz MM7025/7055 but wondering if it will give me more warmth without sacrificing dynamics and performance.
It won't.....Marantz as far as I know is a well designed amp/avr brand with a neutral frequency response...no baked in eq. It will simply amplify whatever signal it is fed, not alter it.
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post #54 of 74 Old 11-15-2019, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Wait a minute, if the anechoic response is flat, then the in room response will have upward slope (bright) because wood floors, walls, glass windows reflect high freq?
No, flat anechoic will have a gently downward sloping in room response without eq. High frequencies are attenuated in air with distance. This is why well designed speakers should not, in general, be eq'd in room to be flat at the listening position. Eq below Schroeder frequency only and always cross to a good quality pair of well designed, well integrated subs for optimal sound quality.
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post #55 of 74 Old 11-15-2019, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
I've owned NAD, my next AVR will be a Marantz without question.

I'm going in the opposite direction lol. I had a Marantz 7008, nr1603, 5012, and nr1609. The 7008 was good but I bought some used B&K separates and that just ruined the Marantz for me. I thought the 5012 sounded very good. NR 1609 was decent but did not sound as good the the 5012, although I was not a-b testing with both on hand.



Then I bought a Yamaha A-S501 and couldn't believe how good it sounded. Clearly a step above the Marantz. Instant upgrade to my speakers - more bass and sweeter highs. Unfortunately it was defective. I then bought an Onkyo a-9110 integrated. I was pretty excited from reading about it, but it was a bit of a letdown. Picked up the NAD stereo receiver in my sig and am happy again. I won't buy another receiver unless it's a higher end NAD, Cambridge, Arcam, or Anthem. I'm convinced most avr's are too compromised in sound quality due to having to fit all those various components/video/cost of sound codecs into the budget and skimping on the power supply and possibly preamp section.
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post #56 of 74 Old 11-16-2019, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by djp2k7 View Post
I'm going in the opposite direction lol. I had a Marantz 7008, nr1603, 5012, and nr1609. The 7008 was good but I bought some used B&K separates and that just ruined the Marantz for me. I thought the 5012 sounded very good. NR 1609 was decent but did not sound as good the the 5012, although I was not a-b testing with both on hand.



Then I bought a Yamaha A-S501 and couldn't believe how good it sounded. Clearly a step above the Marantz. Instant upgrade to my speakers - more bass and sweeter highs. Unfortunately it was defective. I then bought an Onkyo a-9110 integrated. I was pretty excited from reading about it, but it was a bit of a letdown. Picked up the NAD stereo receiver in my sig and am happy again. I won't buy another receiver unless it's a higher end NAD, Cambridge, Arcam, or Anthem. I'm convinced most avr's are too compromised in sound quality due to having to fit all those various components/video/cost of sound codecs into the budget and skimping on the power supply and possibly preamp section.
I have a 30+ year old NAD 7250PE stereo receiver in my secondary room mostly for music but once in a while 3.2 using a NAD Amp in bridged mono for the center, (albeit not true 3.2 as the left/right are stereo and the center is mono). Still works great.

As it has pre outs/main ins I was also able to put a MiniDSP in there to serve as the subwoofer crossover/eq using REW/Umik to tweak the sub frequency response, (ie. flatten the highs between 30-200hz).

I have zero issue recommending NAD stereo stuff but can't recommend their AVRs when a Denon was actually better in that role than the NAD.
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post #57 of 74 Old 11-16-2019, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I'm kinda decided to go with Marantz/Denon after all. Partly anxiety from never having heard of this NAD company ever. But also price. The Marantz 6013 (flagship?) for $1499 is $899 at Crutchfield and may be lower over Bl Friday?

I know @gajCA said Marantz but they seem tto be the same as Denons but Denons have better interface? Reviews complain about Marantz porthole. Any real tech advantage to Marantz over Denon?

Once concern is that is the Marantz/Denons really worth their MSRP or even discounted price? For example Polk. They have an MSRP but you can't actually buy them at MSRP -- they're always huge sales so I wonder is my $229 Polk s15 actually worth that since I got them new for $149!

Music is the reason for my search, not HT. I have a Sony AVR and HT couldn't be better. Music is the issue. No preouts on the AVR hence I thought of Marantz to get preouts and add an amp.
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post #58 of 74 Old 11-16-2019, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Thanks, I'm kinda decided to go with Marantz/Denon after all. Partly anxiety from never having heard of this NAD company ever. But also price. The Marantz 6013 (flagship?) for $1499 is $899 at Crutchfield and may be lower over Bl Friday?

I know @gajCA said Marantz but they seem tto be the same as Denons but Denons have better interface? Reviews complain about Marantz porthole. Any real tech advantage to Marantz over Denon?

Once concern is that is the Marantz/Denons really worth their MSRP or even discounted price? For example Polk. They have an MSRP but you can't actually buy them at MSRP -- they're always huge sales so I wonder is my $229 Polk s15 actually worth that since I got them new for $149!

Music is the reason for my search, not HT. I have a Sony AVR and HT couldn't be better. Music is the issue. No preouts on the AVR hence I thought of Marantz to get preouts and add an amp.
Well, with Crutchfield's generous return policy whatever you buy from them will come with minimal financial risk should it disappoint.
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post #59 of 74 Old 11-16-2019, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Music is the reason for my search, not HT. I have a Sony AVR and HT couldn't be better. Music is the issue. No preouts on the AVR hence I thought of Marantz to get preouts and add an amp.
If music is your priority, and you want to stick with mainstream brands, here is my suggestion. Buy a good mainstream brand integrated amp with minimal or no technology that would go obsolete in several years. The Yamaha S2100 is a good example. Use the rest of your budget on a good stereo speakers which could scale up with your amp and the rest of your (future) components. My brother owns the S2100 and I have personally heard how the S2100 tamed my old screechy Polk RTi speakers that I lent him.
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post #60 of 74 Old 11-16-2019, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
If music is your priority, and you want to stick with mainstream brands, here is my suggestion. Buy a good mainstream brand integrated amp with minimal or no technology that would go obsolete in several years. The Yamaha S2100 is a good example. Use the rest of your budget on a good stereo speakers which could scale up with your amp and the rest of your (future) components. My brother owns the S2100 and I have personally heard how the S2100 tamed my old screechy Polk RTi speakers that I lent him.
I've heard of integrated amps and "DACs" but don't know how they work or connect to each other and speakers and streaming music. Will need to read up. Also, will this still do 5.1 for HT?

Yes my Polk Signatures are also screechy
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