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post #1 of 33 Old 12-06-2019, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Bipole/dipole speakers in a 7.2.4 system?

My last theater room was a 5.2.4 system because couch was on back wall and I had bipole speakers as rears....the room I have now is much longer at 15x24 so I am doing a 7.2.4 system. Was wondering If I should still use bipoles for this sytem or switch back to regular bookshelves? The rears (side) will be approx 16' back and the back wall will be another 7-8' back from those.
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post #2 of 33 Old 12-06-2019, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
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post #3 of 33 Old 12-07-2019, 08:20 AM
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Bipole/dipole speakers in a 7.2.4 system?

The rears will be 16 feet away from the listener or 16 inches?

Doesn’t matter how far the surrounds are from the front speakers, only how far they are from the listener.


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post #4 of 33 Old 12-08-2019, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klipschfn View Post
My last theater room was a 5.2.4 system because couch was on back wall and I had bipole speakers as rears....the room I have now is much longer at 15x24 so I am doing a 7.2.4 system. Was wondering If I should still use bipoles for this sytem or switch back to regular bookshelves? The rears (side) will be approx 16' back and the back wall will be another 7-8' back from those.
Ideally monopoles are recommended for the best surround layer when doing an Atmos setup but bipoles can still be used if needed. Usually that means the listener is extremely close to the side and or back speakers so they need the added dispersion effect that bipoles provide. With your larger space and assuming you aren't sitting with your ear located only a foot or two from the side surrounds drivers then I'd go monopole side and back with the tweeter mounted either at seated ear level or no more than a foot above. Definitely go monopoles for the back surrounds though even if you decide to use the bipoles for the sides.
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post #5 of 33 Old 12-08-2019, 04:10 AM
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I tested bipoles in place of my side surrounds which are approx. 48" from nearest listener.
Bipoles were crap - made a huge hole in the soundfield - almost like they were missing and I only had fronts and rears. Which makes sense when you consider the design of bipoles
Definitely not recommended.
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post #6 of 33 Old 12-08-2019, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
I tested bipoles in place of my side surrounds which are approx. 48" from nearest listener.
Bipoles were crap - made a huge hole in the soundfield - almost like they were missing and I only had fronts and rears. Which makes sense when you consider the design of bipoles
Definitely not recommended.
You're describing dipoles not bipoles . Bipoles are in phase and there's no such hole in the sound field. I have both monopoles and bipoles and have had selectable bi/dipoles in the past.

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post #7 of 33 Old 12-09-2019, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
You're describing dipoles not bipoles . Bipoles are in phase and there's no such hole in the sound field. I have both monopoles and bipoles and have had selectable bi/dipoles in the past.

Nope definitely bipoles and there was a definite hole

This was in my 7.1.6 setup with all 13 identical speakers so replacing one pair with a pair of bipoles is going to make any discrepency stand out like the proverbial I guess


Even the owners manual for them shows a hole and doesn't recommend them for surrounds in a 7.1 setup.

This is sitting directly at 90deg and about 48" away from a speaker with 2 drivers facing at 45deg and 135deg so not surprising to me that there was a hole with the sound coming from in front and behind the speaker but not from it.
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post #8 of 33 Old 12-09-2019, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Nope definitely bipoles and there was a definite hole

This was in my 7.1.6 setup with all 13 identical speakers so replacing one pair with a pair of bipoles is going to make any discrepency stand out like the proverbial I guess


Even the owners manual for them shows a hole and doesn't recommend them for surrounds in a 7.1 setup.

This is sitting directly at 90deg and about 48" away from a speaker with 2 drivers facing at 45deg and 135deg so not surprising to me that there was a hole with the sound coming from in front and behind the speaker but not from it.
I agree with Madmax. There is no null with a bipole speaker. A bipole can be thought of as a wide dispersion monopole.

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post #9 of 33 Old 12-09-2019, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post
I agree with Madmax. There is no null with a bipole speaker. A bipole can be thought of as a wide dispersion monopole.

I am just telling you what I HEARD with my own ears.
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post #10 of 33 Old 12-09-2019, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
I am just telling you what I HEARD with my own ears.
Can’t argue that

What brand/model bipoles were you using?

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post #11 of 33 Old 12-09-2019, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
I am just telling you what I HEARD with my own ears.
I can't speak to what you heard, but in general, bipoles don't have an on-axis null like dipoles do. Dipoles were designed to add ambiance back in the old ProLogic days. Bipoles are much more directional and localizable. Discreet surround systems work better with more localizable speakers like monopoles or bipoles. Bipole surrounds can certainly be used in a 7.2.4 system, in spite of what you heard in your own system. They generally work best in the side surround positions, but they can be used in any position, including the front LCR's. When used in the front positions, they add spaciousness and "size" to the front soundstage at the expense of specificity of imaging. I, personally, prefer to use monopoles up front, but many people prefer bipoles up there. IMO, dipoles have no use in a surround sound system. Bipoles, OTOH can be used effectively.



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post #12 of 33 Old 12-10-2019, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Nope definitely bipoles and there was a definite hole
Maybe they were incorrectly wired out of phase during production? Then it wouldn't matter what the naming was they would act as a Dipole. For the record the description for how bipoles act is not congruent with what you're describing. Bipoles are simply dual facing monopole speakers wired in phase. In phase no center null. Out of phase center null.

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This was in my 7.1.6 setup with all 13 identical speakers so replacing one pair with a pair of bipoles is going to make any discrepency stand out like the proverbial I guess
It shouldn't. RBH even experimented with a large bipole array they manufacture mounted on the ceiling of their HT test room and the Atmos effect was described as amazing by several reviewers including Audioholics.


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Even the owners manual for them shows a hole and doesn't recommend them for surrounds in a 7.1 setup.
Fortunately actual acoustical physics dictates how speaker types operate and not owners manuals. What's the make of the speaker again? The back surrounds are supposed to be mounted several feet behind the listener so several feet behind the side surrounds. I know of setups with bipole side surrounds and monopole back surrounds and everything sounds fine to them so either something is up with the speaker itself, their placement or your space and your ears with your particular setup make bipoles sound like dipoles for some reason. Nothing wrong with monopoles all the way around especially with Atmos but even Dolby doesn't say not to use bipoles if needed.

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This is sitting directly at 90deg and about 48" away from a speaker with 2 drivers facing at 45deg and 135deg so not surprising to me that there was a hole with the sound coming from in front and behind the speaker but not from it.
That's about how far I sit from the center of my bipoles drivers to my ear and same angle and no hole. Also only a 5 channel setup though as I have no space behind me for back surrounds. There was a little more direct sound coming from the set of monopoles I replaced but that was obvious more so during listening in Multi channel stereo mode. In regular surround sound modes with movies I notice almost no difference other than a more diffuse sound with effects coming from the surrounds but that's what bipoles are supposed to do. There is no hole in my setup using them as diffusion isn't the definition of a hole. Were yours mounted with the tweeter at ear level or just a bit above?

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post #13 of 33 Old 12-10-2019, 01:52 AM
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Speakers were Wharfedale Diamond DFS (Diffuse Field Surround)

Room is 20'x14'. Seating and surrounds at 8'4" from back wall.
Surrounds mounted at ear level.
Rear Surrounds are monopoles.


When I say there was a hole - its not that the didn't have any sound, just more sound coming from in front and behind me than directly from the sound. Enough to notice a big gap/jump when something panned front to back.
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post #14 of 33 Old 12-10-2019, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Speakers were Wharfedale Diamond DFS (Diffuse Field Surround)

Room is 20'x14'. Seating and surrounds at 8'4" from back wall.
Surrounds mounted at ear level.
Rear Surrounds are monopoles.


When I say there was a hole - its not that the didn't have any sound, just more sound coming from in front and behind me than directly from the sound. Enough to notice a big gap/jump when something panned front to back.
Dude, are you sure those speakers are bipoles?
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post #15 of 33 Old 12-10-2019, 06:28 AM
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Straight from the Wharfedale brochure :
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post #16 of 33 Old 12-10-2019, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Speakers were Wharfedale Diamond DFS (Diffuse Field Surround)

Room is 20'x14'. Seating and surrounds at 8'4" from back wall.
Surrounds mounted at ear level.
Rear Surrounds are monopoles.


When I say there was a hole - its not that the didn't have any sound, just more sound coming from in front and behind me than directly from the sound. Enough to notice a big gap/jump when something panned front to back.
Ok. Got it. I own some Wharfedale speakers as well. Just not surrounds. Everyone should definitely use what sounds best to them and if bipoles sound like that to you then monopole all the way. Good thing is this hobby gives us all lots of options.

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post #17 of 33 Old 12-11-2019, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Ok. Got it. I own some Wharfedale speakers as well. Just not surrounds. Everyone should definitely use what sounds best to them and if bipoles sound like that to you then monopole all the way. Good thing is this hobby gives us all lots of options.

Yes I have found that there is no right or wrong - just personal preference

Also if you never compare your setup to a "better" one or if you don't spend time perfecting your setup you will likely be happy with it whatever it is


And my Wharfedales are for the kids lounge as rear surrounds - I only used them in my theatre for testing purposes

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post #18 of 33 Old 12-11-2019, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Yes I have found that there is no right or wrong - just personal preference
Yup. Preference over Reference.

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Also if you never compare your setup to a "better" one or if you don't spend time perfecting your setup you will likely be happy with it whatever it is
True. I have about 8 speakers currently in my hallway and one in my room that have gotten used in my setup at one time or another plus I still have my oldest monopole side surrounds on their customized French cleat mounts sitting disconnected above my current Infinity Reference RS152's just because I can.


Quote:
And my Wharfedales are for the kids lounge as rear surrounds - I only used them in my theatre for testing purposes

No kids so I have my Diamond 10.1's sitting above my towers as a front B setup for music i want a warmer sounding speaker for. I'll probably have something else in it's place a few months from now but I'll keep the 10.1 books as they sound really nice for what I paid for them.

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post #19 of 33 Old 12-11-2019, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Straight from the Wharfedale brochure :
The brochure indicates the speakers are specifically designed to be placed on the rear wall - it appears you were testing them on the side walls, so perhaps that explains the sound issues you noticed?
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post #20 of 33 Old 12-11-2019, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by alfa1 View Post
The brochure indicates the speakers are specifically designed to be placed on the rear wall - it appears you were testing them on the side walls, so perhaps that explains the sound issues you noticed?

Exactly - I was testing them on the side walls for the OP who was thinking of running that type of setup.
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post #21 of 33 Old 12-11-2019, 06:05 PM
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Exactly - I was testing them on the side walls for the OP who was thinking of running that type of setup.
Ok - makes sense. I guess I was wondering if maybe there is something unique to the design of those speakers that is different from other bipole surrounds. For example, Def Tech makes bipole surrounds and recommends they be placed on the sidewalls, which sounds different from the brochure you posted.
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post #22 of 33 Old 12-11-2019, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Straight from the Wharfedale brochure :
Brochure says bipoles.

Anyway, I picked up a couple of pairs of Infinity bipole surrounds and will ceiling mount them. They are a little more diffuse than a standard speaker and should give a great Atmos experience.

I think bipoles have a place in today's home theater.

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post #23 of 33 Old 12-12-2019, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Brochure says bipoles.



Anyway, I picked up a couple of pairs of Infinity bipole surrounds and will ceiling mount them. They are a little more diffuse than a standard speaker and should give a great Atmos experience.



I think bipoles have a place in today's home theater.
Currently have a pair of those on my side walls. Sound great.

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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Currently have a pair of those on my side walls. Sound great.
To be honest I don't think they sound very good when left to their own response. They are really falling behind my other speakers in output in the 100-1000 Hz range. Dirac is filling them out nicely, though.
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post #25 of 33 Old 12-12-2019, 07:11 AM
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To be honest I don't think they sound very good when left to their own response. They are really falling behind my other speakers in output in the 100-1000 Hz range. Dirac is filling them out nicely, though.
Interesting. Unfortunately Diracs not worth the expense for me in my space and they sound fine as effects speakers again in my space. I also don't listen anywhere near Reference level so output isn't an issue for me. If i had a larger space and listened closer to Reference i would connect up a pair of BIC PL66's as those can get extremely loud and still sound pretty great. There's also people on AVS using towers as side surrounds so everyones expectations are a bit different.

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post #26 of 33 Old 12-12-2019, 01:06 PM
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I have dipole side surrounds in my 7 channel system (in wall monopoles for rear surrounds). I'm very happy with the sound. They are up higher on the wall than is ideal, so I went with bipole to give a slightly more diffuse sound, which helps. Still localizable, and definitely no hollow sound or null.
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post #27 of 33 Old 12-12-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Interesting. Unfortunately Diracs not worth the expense for me in my space and they sound fine as effects speakers again in my space. I also don't listen anywhere near Reference level so output isn't an issue for me. If i had a larger space and listened closer to Reference i would connect up a pair of BIC PL66's as those can get extremely loud and still sound pretty great. There's also people on AVS using towers as side surrounds so everyones expectations are a bit different.
When I mean output, I mean the frequency response is lagging. When I hook them up just to hear how they sound as speakers, not "effects speakers", they are treble-heavy and in need of some balance. Dirac is bringing up the upper bass and lower midrange to round them out.

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post #28 of 33 Old 12-12-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
When I mean output, I mean the frequency response is lagging. When I hook them up just to hear how they sound as speakers, not "effects speakers", they are treble-heavy and in need of some balance. Dirac is bringing up the upper bass and lower midrange to round them out.
Ah, ok. That's more than likely by design as Harman measures their speakers well enough and I've seen measurements and reviews on some of the other IR line.

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post #29 of 33 Old 12-12-2019, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
I have dipole side surrounds in my 7 channel system (in wall monopoles for rear surrounds). I'm very happy with the sound. They are up higher on the wall than is ideal, so I went with bipole to give a slightly more diffuse sound, which helps. Still localizable, and definitely no hollow sound or null.

Dipole or bipole ?



They are 2 completely different types of speakers - bipoles fire both drivers in sync, dipoles fire them 180deg out of sync - creating 2 different soundfields.



Just want to make sure people reading this thread are aware of the difference.
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post #30 of 33 Old 12-12-2019, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
I have dipole side surrounds in my 7 channel system (in wall monopoles for rear surrounds). I'm very happy with the sound. They are up higher on the wall than is ideal, so I went with bipole to give a slightly more diffuse sound, which helps. Still localizable, and definitely no hollow sound or null.



Dipole or bipole ?



They are 2 completely different types of speakers - bipoles fire both drivers in sync, dipoles fire them 180deg out of sync - creating 2 different soundfields.



Just want to make sure people reading this thread are aware of the difference.
Oops bipole. Typo...
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