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post #271 of 309 Old 03-23-2020, 04:23 PM
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I guess an advantage of going passive connected to a receiver or integrated amp with room correction would be the ability to mitigate such problems. I agree with Geoff to just find that perfect spot and enjoy.

Here's an interesting thread on just how well Anthem does in this regard...

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-minds.939544/
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post #272 of 309 Old 03-23-2020, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
so for critical listening I pulled my chair back 60" (5') from the speakers. The sound quality fell!
How far away from front wall and back wall are you when this happens?
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post #273 of 309 Old 03-23-2020, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Congrats on finding something that you like.

As to the questions, it could be room interaction playing a greater role as you move further away to the theoretical sweet spot.

Don't overthink it, enjoy the position that works best for your ears.
Oh I love them. The clarity, imaging, midbass, definitely hifi at midfi price. Well i got them to be computer speakers since I don't have the luxury of time for critical listening when not workring, so all in all the fact that they sound best when I'm working near-field is fantastic. I'll just not pull my chair so far back from them. And by the way typo above, i meant the SQ is best whne tweeters are NOT pointed at me, so not toed in sounds best!
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post #274 of 309 Old 03-23-2020, 05:28 PM
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When you slide your chair back 5 feet try pulling your speakers forward until they just hang over the front edge of your desk and see how they sound then.
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post #275 of 309 Old 03-23-2020, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by doctors11 View Post
I guess an advantage of going passive connected to a receiver or integrated amp with room correction would be the ability to mitigate such problems. I agree with Geoff to just find that perfect spot and enjoy.

Here's an interesting thread on just how well Anthem does in this regard...

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-minds.939544/
Yes, but the SQ is amazing with factory bass, treble, EQ and speakers plonked on my desk with no consideration to placement. So once I start to really play with the bass, treble, and the many EQ options Vanatoo provides after my work deliverables in April, I think it can improve. And the stands to decouple may further improve SQ once they arrive. I'm not unhappy becuase the best SQ position is what I bought them to use for-desktop! I thought that position would be bad so to really enjoy them I would need to pull my chair back into an equilateral triangle. Strangely, that is not good SQ! So actually I'm thrilled that I don't have to eke out the time to do that. Strange.

So to be clear, the best position I find is speakers are 52" apart and I'm 36" from each and very little toe in! Strange.

It's gotta be the room or desk doing it.
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post #276 of 309 Old 03-23-2020, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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How far away from front wall and back wall are you when this happens?
Back of each speaker is 18" from front wall. I'm 36" to each tweeter. Tweeters are 52" apart (PC in between). Back wall is 6-7' behind me. Each speaker is 4-5' to respective sidewall.
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post #277 of 309 Old 03-23-2020, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Back of each speaker is 18" from front wall. I'm 36" to each tweeter. Tweeters are 52" apart (PC in between). Back wall is 6-7' behind me. Each speaker is 4-5' to respective sidewall.
Sounds like you may be pretty close to being half way between front and back wall when SQ falls, which apparently is one of the worst places to be in for audio listening...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...rst-place.html
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post #278 of 309 Old 03-23-2020, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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When you slide your chair back 5 feet try pulling your speakers forward until they just hang over the front edge of your desk and see how they sound then.
Good point. As of now there's 2' of shiny desk in front of each speaker, glass beer mugs, wine glasses will kinda always be there. Can't really remove glasses to listen to music since I'd like to drink when listening. One of the reviewers you guys suggested earlier in this thread did rank the T1E highest in the studio monitor category but not as high as equally priced passive speakers (Revel, etc) in the speakers category. He may have a point. Maybe the SQ is tuned for near-field?
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post #279 of 309 Old 03-23-2020, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post
Sounds like you may be pretty close to being half way between front and back wall, which apparently is one of the worst places to be in for audio listening...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...rst-place.html
Good point, when i make equilateral triangle (bad SQ), I'm approx halfway between the walls. When at desktop (good SQ), I'm at approx 1/3 point (closer to front wall)

EDIT. Your link makes sense. It says to sit at 1/3 point and coincidentally that's where SQ is best!

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post #280 of 309 Old 03-24-2020, 05:28 AM
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One of the issues with nearfield listening is reflections off the desk, another is tweeter and woofer distance. Typical speakers are voiced to sound best some feet away, and you can experience issues with lobing when up close because you can perceive the sounds from the woofer and tweeter as individual sources. A coaxial speaker solves this problem because both drivers share the same origin.

The KEF LS50 is very popular for nearfield because of the coaxial design, smaller size, and excellent detail. I would recommend using speaker stands to get them up at ear level, or monitor isolation pads that point the speakers at your ears when seated. Both of these methods can help reduce reflections off the desk surface.

A ribbon tweeter can also work well in nearfield because ribbons typically have a narrower vertical dispersion compared to domes. This helps with reflections. If a coaxial design isn't available or an option, look for a speaker with a smaller woofer as it will help reduce the distance between tweeter and woofer origins.
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Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post
One of the issues with nearfield listening is reflections off the desk, another is tweeter and woofer distance. Typical speakers are voiced to sound best some feet away, and you can experience issues with lobing when up close because you can perceive the sounds from the woofer and tweeter as individual sources. A coaxial speaker solves this problem because both drivers share the same origin.

The KEF LS50 is very popular for nearfield because of the coaxial design, smaller size, and excellent detail. I would recommend using speaker stands to get them up at ear level, or monitor isolation pads that point the speakers at your ears when seated. Both of these methods can help reduce reflections off the desk surface.

A ribbon tweeter can also work well in nearfield because ribbons typically have a narrower vertical dispersion compared to domes. This helps with reflections. If a coaxial design isn't available or an option, look for a speaker with a smaller woofer as it will help reduce the distance between tweeter and woofer origins.
All good points yes reflections off the desk may be there for me I can't tell. There's definitely very strong vibrations in the desk from the music. I heard this isn't good? Yes, tweeter and woofer distance may be an issue and may be causing that wonderful instrument separation I'm hearing? I don't know. The treble and bass is very good though.

What is lobing?

I wanted the KEFLS50 but not an amp and passives to reduce clutter. I looked at the LS50W but seems to have reliability and app issues? But it's widely recognized to have the best clarity, transparency, and imaging.

This is a 5.25" woofer. Should I really go smaller? That'll mean Audioengine A4 I guess.

Speaker stands are in the mail but delayed due to the virus scare. I'm definitely looking forward to them.
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post #282 of 309 Old 03-24-2020, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
All good points yes reflections off the desk may be there for me I can't tell. There's definitely very strong vibrations in the desk from the music. I heard this isn't good? Yes, tweeter and woofer distance may be an issue and may be causing that wonderful instrument separation I'm hearing? I don't know. The treble and bass is very good though.

What is lobing?

I wanted the KEFLS50 but not an amp and passives to reduce clutter. I looked at the LS50W but seems to have reliability and app issues? But it's widely recognized to have the best clarity, transparency, and imaging.

This is a 5.25" woofer. Should I really go smaller? That'll mean Audioengine A4 I guess.

Speaker stands are in the mail but delayed due to the virus scare. I'm definitely looking forward to them.
Physical distance between drivers is not related to perceived instrument separation in music. The issue arises when you can hear the origins of sound coming from each driver, instead of one unified sound as intended. Studio monitors are designed to be listened to at close distances, and often use waveguides to combat the effects of lobing.

There are plenty of compact amps that would work well with those LS50, for example the NAD D3020 is a very good little amp that is discrete on a desk.
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If you go smaller you'll probably want to incorporate a subwoofer. You like the Vanatoos, maybe try their Transparent Zero.

https://vanatoo.com/shop/speakers/transparent-zero/

Looks like it gives you two crossover choices...80 and 125.
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If you go smaller you'll probably want to incorporate a subwoofer. You like the Vanatoos, maybe try their Transparent Zero.

https://vanatoo.com/shop/speakers/transparent-zero/

Looks like it gives you two crossover choices...80 and 125.
Thanks, I'm def keeping the T1E. Amazing sound. Just want ideas for placement and EQ since everything is ad hoc now. I'm getting an RSL speedwoof too - it's in the mail actually.
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post #285 of 309 Old 03-24-2020, 12:25 PM
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This is a 5.25" woofer. Should I really go smaller?
Maybe I'm generalizing here a bit, but personally, I wouldn't go smaller than that. IME, most speakers with 5.25" drivers integrate quite well with a sub, allowing you to keep the crossover point low enough to where the sub is not being asked to produce lower end of the male vocals. Not so with most 4" drivers.
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post #286 of 309 Old 03-24-2020, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe I'm generalizing here a bit, but personally, I wouldn't go smaller than that. IME, most speakers with 5.25" drivers integrate quite well with a sub, allowing you to keep the crossover point low enough to where the sub is not being asked to produce lower end of the male vocals. Not so with most 4" drivers.
Of course. I like the T1E so much I'm not changing them. They do go to 48 Hz, which makes sub integration easier. Vocals are great unlike the youtube reviews.
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post #287 of 309 Old 03-25-2020, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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To explain my room, here is the desk with the speakers, my work chair, and my easy chair. When I sit on the work chair (1/2 point of room), Sq is bad. At desk, SQ is good. I didn't sit in the easy chair yet since it won't be equilateral. There's only 52" between the speakers while the easy chair is 8' from speakers. Any suggestions on where to move the chair and sit?
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post #288 of 309 Old 03-25-2020, 04:19 PM
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To explain my room, here is the desk with the speakers, my work chair, and my easy chair. When I sit on the work chair (1/2 point of room), Sq is bad. At desk, SQ is good. I didn't sit in the easy chair yet since it won't be equilateral. There's only 52" between the speakers while the easy chair is 8' from speakers. Any suggestions on where to move the chair and sit?
Just a guess but I wouldn't worry too much about the perfect equilateral triangle. When it's time to relax I would pull the easy chair away from the wall about a foot and pull the speakers to the front edge of the desk. Should sound pretty great.
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post #289 of 309 Old 03-25-2020, 05:37 PM
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Also, consider hanging some sound absorbing material on the wall behind you.
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post #290 of 309 Old 03-25-2020, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Just a guess but I wouldn't worry too much about the perfect equilateral triangle. When it's time to relax I would pull the easy chair away from the wall about a foot and pull the speakers to the front edge of the desk. Should sound pretty great.
Would drinking a merlot provide better SQ or a pinot noir?
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post #291 of 309 Old 03-26-2020, 03:43 AM
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Would drinking a merlot provide better SQ or a pinot noir?
Montepulciano
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Montepulciano
d'Abruzzo! How did you know that is one of my favorite grapes?? Came across it in Europe 20 years ago.
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Montepulciano
Keeping your parents and you in my thoughts in this difficult time.
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Keeping your parents and you in my thoughts in this difficult time.
Thank you Vikram really appreciate that. Mom passed away about 2 months ago so now our concern is our 95 year old Dad living alone.

Hoping you and your family are safe, along with everyone here at AVS.

Reading some of these posts makes me smile during these trying times...keep up the good work guys!
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Thank you Vikram really appreciate that. Mom passed away about 2 months ago so now our concern is our 95 year old Dad living alone.

Hoping you and your family are safe, along with everyone here at AVS.

Reading some of these posts makes me smile during these trying times...keep up the good work guys!
I am so sorry and will keep you in my thoughts.
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post #296 of 309 Old 03-28-2020, 04:02 AM
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Thank you Vikram really appreciate that. Mom passed away about 2 months ago so now our concern is our 95 year old Dad living alone.

Hoping you and your family are safe, along with everyone here at AVS.

Reading some of these posts makes me smile during these trying times...keep up the good work guys!
My condolences on the loss of your mother, and best wishes for helping your dad get through this upheaval in his life.

Been through it in the opposite order, dad in 2013 and mom in 2015. It's the natural progression of things, as no parent wants to outlive their children and my parents buried two plus two grandchildren.
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post #297 of 309 Old 03-28-2020, 05:58 AM
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My condolences on the loss of your mother, and best wishes for helping your dad get through this upheaval in his life.

Been through it in the opposite order, dad in 2013 and mom in 2015. It's the natural progression of things, as no parent wants to outlive their children and my parents buried two plus two grandchildren.
Thank you for the kind works Ken. And my thoughts go out to your family as well. I can't imagine what it's like to outlive our kids. Can't take any of this for granted. Makes wonderful music an even more important part of our lives.
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post #298 of 309 Old 03-29-2020, 06:45 PM
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One of the issues with nearfield listening is reflections off the desk, another is tweeter and woofer distance. Typical speakers are voiced to sound best some feet away, and you can experience issues with lobing when up close because you can perceive the sounds from the woofer and tweeter as individual sources. A coaxial speaker solves this problem because both drivers share the same origin.

The KEF LS50 is very popular for nearfield because of the coaxial design, smaller size, and excellent detail. I would recommend using speaker stands to get them up at ear level, or monitor isolation pads that point the speakers at your ears when seated. Both of these methods can help reduce reflections off the desk surface.

A ribbon tweeter can also work well in nearfield because ribbons typically have a narrower vertical dispersion compared to domes. This helps with reflections. If a coaxial design isn't available or an option, look for a speaker with a smaller woofer as it will help reduce the distance between tweeter and woofer origins.
Totally agree with the need for stands. Using KEF Q100s as PC desktop USB feeds Amazon Music Unlimited Ultra HD (Up to 24bit/192kb through Pro-Jet PreBox S2 Dac. RCA "Y "split left out to Polk 10" Sub (80Hz), right and other left feeds into 8w/ch "cheap" tube amp. KEFs sit atop 10" stands 5 ft apart and 4 ft from my chair and angled in "sweet spot". The KEF tweeter/woofer coax sounds amazing. I hear details with this setup
that are not heard from my Magnepan LRSs in "Nearfield" setup from 8ft. away.
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post #299 of 309 Old 03-29-2020, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Totally agree with the need for stands. Using KEF Q100s as PC desktop USB feeds Amazon Music Unlimited Ultra HD (Up to 24bit/192kb through Pro-Jet PreBox S2 Dac. RCA "Y "split left out to Polk 10" Sub (80Hz), right and other left feeds into 8w/ch "cheap" tube amp. KEFs sit atop 10" stands 5 ft apart and 4 ft from my chair and angled in "sweet spot". The KEF tweeter/woofer coax sounds amazing. I hear details with this setup
that are not heard from my Magnepan LRSs in "Nearfield" setup from 8ft. away.
Really good to read this because your setup is close to mine, or I mean I can match yours. My speakers are already 52" apart though I'd like to make them 48" apart because I'm close to them on my desk. They are now on the desk which vibrates and I think that reduces SQ? The tweeters are 10-12" below me ear level. So the tweeters raising should also help SQ?

Most interesting is your description of sweet spot. What do you mean exactly? I've tried (1) pointing straight at me as well as (2) toeing in a bit but not pointing at me directly, so pointing at 3 ft behind me. Not sure which is better for desktop near-field. I mean from the SQ, I can't seem to tell which is better. When you say, you angled in "sweet spot" do you mean pointed speakers directly at you or just toed in a bit?

Is experiments the only way or is there any science to toe in?

The Iso acoustics are in the mail...but delayed due to Corona. Honestly, the stands are not the most important thing in the world with the virus, deaths, hunger, and hardship for so many :-(

Sending good wishes and thoughts to all on AVS
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post #300 of 309 Old 03-29-2020, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
My condolences on the loss of your mother, and best wishes for helping your dad get through this upheaval in his life.

Been through it in the opposite order, dad in 2013 and mom in 2015. It's the natural progression of things, as no parent wants to outlive their children and my parents buried two plus two grandchildren.
Ken, my thoughts with you. I've been through it in 2018 and until one has, one has no idea. Sending you good thoughts.
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