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post #1 of 31 Old 12-15-2019, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Towers with more or less bass for HT w/ subs

Howdy,

I recently pulled the trigger on an Outlaw X12 sub for my HT room (100% movies) and am in the hunt to upgrade my front mains.

I have been looking at the SVS Pinnacle towers matched with their Ultra center and Goldenear's Triton 7 with their Super Center X.

My question: with the one (and probably a second Outlaw X12) in the equation, how important is having good bass from my front main towers?

The SVS Pinnacle towers have three 6.5" drivers while the Goldenear Triton 7s have two passive 8" radiators coupled with two 5.25" drivers. Will the extra woofers in the SVS towers be for naught? Will the acclaimed smoothness of the Triton 7s be better bc the Outlaws will handle the bass department?

Thanks guys.

2-Channel: Rega RP-3, Bellari VP130, Cayin A-88T MK2, SVS Ultra Monitors
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post #2 of 31 Old 12-15-2019, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieper53 View Post
Howdy,

I recently pulled the trigger on an Outlaw X12 sub for my HT room (100% movies) and am in the hunt to upgrade my front mains.

I have been looking at the SVS Pinnacle towers matched with their Ultra center and Goldenear's Triton 7 with their Super Center X.

My question: with the one (and probably a second Outlaw X12) in the equation, how important is having good bass from my front main towers?

The SVS Pinnacle towers have three 6.5" drivers while the Goldenear Triton 7s have two passive 8" radiators coupled with two 5.25" drivers. Will the extra woofers in the SVS towers be for naught? Will the acclaimed smoothness of the Triton 7s be better bc the Outlaws will handle the bass department?

Thanks guys.
IMO get a second X12, grab the bookshelf/center of your liking now.
Later on grab the matching towers and move the bookshelf to the rear. The deal om the x12's are too good to pass up right now @$499

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post #3 of 31 Old 12-15-2019, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Not a bad idea but I already have solid rears. I'm looking for advice on which "features" of towers I need considering the single X12 and possibly a dual X12 sub set up... Compliment the X12s with towers that have decent full range harmonics (SVS Pinnacles) or ones that shine in the mid and upper ranges (Triton Sevens).

2-Channel: Rega RP-3, Bellari VP130, Cayin A-88T MK2, SVS Ultra Monitors
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post #4 of 31 Old 12-16-2019, 03:36 AM
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I personally think its a good idea to get as much woofer as possible in your mains to handle 80-300 Hz, especially for home theater where spirited playback levels may be desired This is a tough range for small woofers to handle even when crossed to subs. Also keep in mind that room correction eq will often easily add 6 dB of boost in this region which quadruples the amount of power going to the woofer(s).
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post #5 of 31 Old 12-16-2019, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieper53 View Post
Not a bad idea but I already have solid rears. I'm looking for advice on which "features" of towers I need considering the single X12 and possibly a dual X12 sub set up... Compliment the X12s with towers that have decent full range harmonics (SVS Pinnacles) or ones that shine in the mid and upper ranges (Triton Sevens).
Having better mid and upper range detail and clarity would be well appreciated for 2 channel music or If you're movie listening consists of mostly dialogue heavy dramas and documentaries. For action movies, better subs and a good center are the more crucial pieces so Id go for as much bone crushing low end as possible. Dual subs are highly recommended.

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post #6 of 31 Old 12-16-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I personally think its a good idea to get as much woofer as possible in your mains to handle 80-300 Hz, especially for home theater where spirited playback levels may be desired This is a tough range for small woofers to handle even when crossed to subs. Also keep in mind that room correction eq will often easily add 6 dB of boost in this region which quadruples the amount of power going to the woofer(s).
I agree completely. I've seen systems with massive subwoofer capability lashed up with small front/center speakers with 3.5" woofers and the system just falls flat dynamically above the speaker/subwoofer crossover. That 80-300 Hz is indeed a critical bandwidth.
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post #7 of 31 Old 12-16-2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pieper53 View Post
My question: with the one (and probably a second Outlaw X12) in the equation, how important is having good bass from my front main towers?

The SVS Pinnacle towers have three 6.5" drivers while the Goldenear Triton 7s have two passive 8" radiators coupled with two 5.25" drivers. Will the extra woofers in the SVS towers be for naught? Will the acclaimed smoothness of the Triton 7s be better bc the Outlaws will handle the bass department?
For 100% HT usage, the critical spec to look at is SENSITIVITY. The second key spec is IMPEDANCE.

The higher those 2 are, the more likely the speaker will be better for HT, where dynamics & headroom are key, together with clarity/detail.

A third factor, which is often overlooked and/or denied for marketing/sales purposes, is the speaker's mid-bass extension. The lower the extension, the more that the speaker is trying to be a do-it-all standalone (often just to generate more sales because one of the few specs that consumers understand is frequency range), the more likely it will not do as well when used with a sub or two for HT as opposed to 2.0 music listening. For HT usage, I would sooner trust a tower that rolls off around 45-55hz than one that goes down to 30Hz. (That doesn't mean that all towers going down to 30Hz are going to be bad at HT, of course.)

Unfortunately, some speaker companies will fudge all three of those specs. They bank on having fudged specs, pretty cabinets, and inflated pricetags to win over the average gullible consumer who is easily brainwashed into a "you get what you pay for" mindset. And who can blame them? All too often, that calculus pays rich dividends.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #8 of 31 Old 12-16-2019, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieper53 View Post
Not a bad idea but I already have solid rears. I'm looking for advice on which "features" of towers I need considering the single X12 and possibly a dual X12 sub set up... Compliment the X12s with towers that have decent full range harmonics (SVS Pinnacles) or ones that shine in the mid and upper ranges (Triton Sevens).
Well....SVS does have a generous trial period with free shipping both ways. Very little risk for you to try them out.

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post #9 of 31 Old 12-16-2019, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
For 100% HT usage, the critical spec to look at is SENSITIVITY. The second key spec is IMPEDANCE.

The higher those 2 are, the more likely the speaker will be better for HT, where dynamics & headroom are key, together with clarity/detail.


A third factor, which is often overlooked and/or denied for marketing/sales purposes, is the speaker's mid-bass extension. The lower the extension, the more that the speaker is trying to be a do-it-all standalone (often just to generate more sales because one of the few specs that consumers understand is frequency range), the more likely it will not do as well when used with a sub or two for HT as opposed to 2.0 music listening. For HT usage, I would sooner trust a tower that rolls off around 45-55hz than one that goes down to 30Hz. (That doesn't mean that all towers going down to 30Hz are going to be bad at HT, of course.)

Unfortunately, some speaker companies will fudge all three of those specs. They bank on having fudged specs, pretty cabinets, and inflated pricetags to win over the average gullible consumer who is easily brainwashed into a "you get what you pay for" mindset. And who can blame them? All too often, that calculus pays rich dividends.


Thanks for the reply. I understand (or at least think I do) the role of sensitivity but how does a higher impedance benefit the speaker?

Also, to your comment of "sooner trust(ing) a tower that rolls off around 45-55hz than one that goes down to 30Hz" -- how can I learn that attribute of a tower? Particularly the two in question.

I assume looking at the crossover for a speaker is important to how much power/emphasis it puts to different bands of frequencies? (One that has a crossover at 50hz to the subs will have more mid-range than one that sends frequencies less than 80hz to the woofers?)

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post #10 of 31 Old 12-16-2019, 03:27 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I understand (or at least think I do) the role of sensitivity but how does a higher impedance benefit the speaker?
Lower impedance like say 4ohm speakers will draw more current and will be more difficult to drive with a mid-level AVR. You would likely need to add amps to drive them to louder levels without blowing up your AVR.
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post #11 of 31 Old 12-16-2019, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieper53 View Post
Howdy,

I recently pulled the trigger on an Outlaw X12 sub for my HT room (100% movies) and am in the hunt to upgrade my front mains.

I have been looking at the SVS Pinnacle towers matched with their Ultra center and Goldenear's Triton 7 with their Super Center X.

My question: with the one (and probably a second Outlaw X12) in the equation, how important is having good bass from my front main towers?

The SVS Pinnacle towers have three 6.5" drivers while the Goldenear Triton 7s have two passive 8" radiators coupled with two 5.25" drivers. Will the extra woofers in the SVS towers be for naught? Will the acclaimed smoothness of the Triton 7s be better bc the Outlaws will handle the bass department?

Thanks guys.
Just my two cents, from a tower type of guy.

Get the towers, that do sound best to you. For your sound preference, then set them at 80Hz and let what the sub/s do what they do best for lower frequencies.
While you may think, it is a waste of money for a tower that go down 45Hz (just as an example). The crossover is not a brick wall, some lower frequencies will still be played.

This will result for cleaner sound, from your towers. During loud moment with a movie, with low bass content.


Darth

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post #12 of 31 Old 12-16-2019, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Just when I thought I had it narrowed down (let me guess, I'm not the first in this bunch to say that!)...

I'd like to formally add the Def Tech Mythos STS SuperTower into the ring. At $750/tower they fit right into the fold.

Any thoughts? The set up is 100% movies and my goal is that total cinema immersion experience.

Thank you for your time...

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post #13 of 31 Old 12-16-2019, 11:24 PM
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I'd like to formally add the Def Tech Mythos STS SuperTower into the ring. At $750/tower they fit right into the fold. Any thoughts? The set up is 100% movies and my goal is that total cinema immersion experience.
For HT use in particular, I would run like hell away from any towers with built-in subs. For one thing, you lose the single most important element of effective subwooferage: PLACEMENT flexibility! You're stuck with them being exactly where the L/R channels are, which is often NOT the best place in one's room.

And Def Tech is one of the most notorious liars when it comes to specs (just ask anyone who's ever owned a DT subwoofer, horribly overpriced for crappy performance) which is writ large with their listed spec on those towers going down to 16Hz---laugh out loud hilarious! In real life their 3db roll off is probably closer to 40Hz at best. They expect you to believe that dinky little woofers stuffed inside dinky little cabinets with dinky, weak little amps are going to do what usually requires a sub the size of a half-refrigerator to do? ROTFL!

A $500 pair of Ascend 340SE paired with a capable sub would eat those things for lunch.
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post #14 of 31 Old 12-17-2019, 12:47 AM
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Grab a pair of JBL Studio 590's. These have been heavily discounted by JBL (roughly 60% off) and the performance for the money is hard to beat. Hell, anything from the Studio 5 line would do wonders for you, as all models are on sale and in stock right now. They're chunkier than anything GoldenEar makes, though, and will take up a good footprint. Even the smaller 580 has some depth to its dimension. These are higher sensitivity speakers but can absolutely hold their own even without a sub.

I'm no audiophile, but my entire HT is Studio 5 now I might be biased...
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post #15 of 31 Old 12-17-2019, 03:29 AM
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JBL Studio 590's will indeed be hard to beat for the price for home theater at their discounted price. I recently purchase a pair of Revel F36 after heavily researching towers that would perform well for movies and outstanding for music. The Prime Pinnacles look like a decent option being a 3 way and also 3 x 6.5" woofers, although they have lower sensitivity than either of the above options, and the JBL are drastically more capable for less money. Not sure if they would have the sound quality of the Revels.

For 100% movie use, I'd also look at PSA 210 towers or even their bookshelf speakers.

I'd probably place them in this order when considering both price and performance for your specific application:

-JBL Studio 590 $880 shipped for the pair, on sale from $2,000; dual 8", 92 dB, 1" Neo compression driver.
-PSA MTM 210T, around $2200 shipped/pair, dual 10", 98 dB, 1" compression driver.
-Revel F36, perhaps $1500/pair with dealer pricing, 91 dB, 3 x 6.5"
-SVS Prime Pinnacle.
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post #16 of 31 Old 12-17-2019, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieper53 View Post
Howdy,

I recently pulled the trigger on an Outlaw X12 sub for my HT room (100% movies) and am in the hunt to upgrade my front mains.

I have been looking at the SVS Pinnacle towers matched with their Ultra center and Goldenear's Triton 7 with their Super Center X.

My question: with the one (and probably a second Outlaw X12) in the equation, how important is having good bass from my front main towers?

The SVS Pinnacle towers have three 6.5" drivers while the Goldenear Triton 7s have two passive 8" radiators coupled with two 5.25" drivers. Will the extra woofers in the SVS towers be for naught? Will the acclaimed smoothness of the Triton 7s be better bc the Outlaws will handle the bass department?

Thanks guys.
GoldenEar has horrific return policies, so start with SVS and their excellent return policy.

No need for massive powered woofers when using dual quality subs.

The Pinnacles are hardly pea shooters.
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post #17 of 31 Old 12-17-2019, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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The JBL's are have an impedance of 6 ohms... should that worry me with my planed NAD T 758 V3 receiver?

2-Channel: Rega RP-3, Bellari VP130, Cayin A-88T MK2, SVS Ultra Monitors
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The JBL's are have an impedance of 6 ohms... should that worry me with my planed NAD T 758 V3 receiver?
No, not at all. NAD has very good amplifier sections with no problem running loads as low as 4 ohms.
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post #19 of 31 Old 12-17-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by pieper53 View Post
Howdy,

I recently pulled the trigger on an Outlaw X12 sub for my HT room (100% movies) and am in the hunt to upgrade my front mains.

I have been looking at the SVS Pinnacle towers matched with their Ultra center and Goldenear's Triton 7 with their Super Center X.

My question: with the one (and probably a second Outlaw X12) in the equation, how important is having good bass from my front main towers?

The SVS Pinnacle towers have three 6.5" drivers while the Goldenear Triton 7s have two passive 8" radiators coupled with two 5.25" drivers. Will the extra woofers in the SVS towers be for naught? Will the acclaimed smoothness of the Triton 7s be better bc the Outlaws will handle the bass department?

Thanks guys.
It looks like you're in the process of upgrading. You may do it in more increments or wait a little longer to get some more funds for more significant upgrades: processor, amps, 4 ohms speakers if you will. Locally listed used equipment is also a good place to get equipment at good prices.
Then, when I did my upgrades I did it for me. Friends come and go, but ultimately you'll be the one using the system the most. You need to be happy with what you have - at least for a while, until the next upgrade.
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post #20 of 31 Old 12-17-2019, 01:25 PM
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No, not at all. NAD has very good amplifier sections with no problem running loads as low as 4 ohms.
After buying some M&K 150 for my HT, I was using a Denon 5308 AVR to drive them. It used to get pretty hot so I used a quiet fan to help it cool down. I cannot comment on how this particular NAD receiver can handle 6 and lower ohms impedance speakers, but if a flagship AVR struggled at higher volumes on 9 channels driven maybe it would be better to stick with 8 ohms speakers. I am using now 2 multi-channel amps and driving the M&Ks is no longer an issue. The receiver needs to work up to about 75% power, otherwise distortion may occur. It would be cool if AVR could have gauges for power just like cars do for RPM.
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post #21 of 31 Old 12-17-2019, 06:01 PM
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The JBL's are have an impedance of 6 ohms... should that worry me with my planed NAD T 758 V3 receiver?
I'd be more worried about the NAD:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...8-v3-avr.8912/
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post #22 of 31 Old 12-17-2019, 07:25 PM
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The JBL's are have an impedance of 6 ohms... should that worry me with my planed NAD T 758 V3 receiver?
Nope.
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post #23 of 31 Old 12-18-2019, 01:35 PM
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Has that site ever tested an AVR they didn't think sucked?

I love my NAD stereo gear that I've had for decades but, for sure, my NAD AVR, which was very expensive, pissed me off when it started to fail at year 7 and crapped out in year 9.

The mid level Denon that replaced it was far better and still is.

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post #24 of 31 Old 12-18-2019, 05:07 PM
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Has that site ever tested an AVR they didn't think sucked?

I love my NAD stereo gear that I've had for decades but, for sure, my NAD AVR, which was very expensive, pissed me off when it started to fail at year 7 and crapped out in year 9.

The mid level Denon that replaced it was far better and still is.
I just looked over a few of the reviews. They don't seem to think much of AVRs.

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post #25 of 31 Old 12-18-2019, 05:55 PM
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Has that site ever tested an AVR they didn't think sucked?

I love my NAD stereo gear that I've had for decades but, for sure, my NAD AVR, which was very expensive, pissed me off when it started to fail at year 7 and crapped out in year 9.

The mid level Denon that replaced it was far better and still is.
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I just looked over a few of the reviews. They don't seem to think much of AVRs.
It's true that most of the AVR's tested have been somewhat disappointing with their measured performance. What's scary is that the NAD had the worst measured performance of the AVR's tested. It's almost as if, in order to bring Dirac to market, they put together a dirt cheap, poor performing AVR and put all their eggs in the Dirac basket. I think it's a good thing for the consumer to see the truth about how these products perform, rather than having to rely on paid reviewers flowery subjective praise of how crisp and pristine these "audiophile" AVR's perform. I for one would definitely want to know I was getting poor DAC performance, mediocre to poor amplifier performance, and great room correction. I think most owners are easily influenced by what they "expect" to hear after being flooded with marketing prose and subjective paid reviews. Having said that, the advantage of Dirac room correction probably has orders of magnitude greater effect on sound quality than the poor sound quality of the amp and DAC section. But it would be nice to get Dirac *and* a mediocre or decent amp and DAC section.

For example, the Denon X3500 was tested. It's amplifier section tested much better than the NAD with lower distortion and substantially more power. However, I'm glad to know that as far as the pre-outs go, distortion starts to rise at the 2V level, but is adequately low below 1.5 volts. Heck, it might even be inaudible a the 2 volt level. Having this information, consumers can make an informed decision as to whether this meets their needs when using the pre-outs to drive a dedicated amp.

Last edited by bear123; 12-18-2019 at 06:30 PM.
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post #26 of 31 Old 12-18-2019, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
I love my NAD stereo gear that I've had for decades but, for sure, my NAD AVR, which was very expensive, pissed me off when it started to fail at year 7 and crapped out in year 9.
7 years isn't bad for an AVR, but it's true that NAD's multi-channel gear has always had a lot more reliability problems than their 2-channel stuff.

I mean, I'll be thrilled if my Pioneer LX502 lasts for 7 or 9 years, even though I use it very gently.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #27 of 31 Old 12-18-2019, 07:40 PM
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My Yamaha RXV-375 didn't last 7 years....probably wasn't half that before the HDMI board started crapping out...but I don't remember exactly.
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post #28 of 31 Old 12-18-2019, 10:56 PM - Thread Starter
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What would be y'alls opinion on an amp/AVR for a 7.2.4 set up sub $1,500? I am okay with going with something around $1,500 that would work with a secondary 2-3 channel amp (~$300) to allow a 7.2.4 set up.

Am I kidding myself on that budget? Other than decent room correction, I have zero interest in extra features... I'd rather have my $ go to clean power.

2-Channel: Rega RP-3, Bellari VP130, Cayin A-88T MK2, SVS Ultra Monitors
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post #29 of 31 Old 12-19-2019, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieper53 View Post
What would be y'alls opinion on an amp/AVR for a 7.2.4 set up sub $1,500? I am okay with going with something around $1,500 that would work with a secondary 2-3 channel amp (~$300) to allow a 7.2.4 set up.

Am I kidding myself on that budget? Other than decent room correction, I have zero interest in extra features... I'd rather have my $ go to clean power.
Denon 3600 with external amp.

On sale at the moment.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-vIKdWO...xoCp8wQAvD_BwE

Geoff A. J., California
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post #30 of 31 Old 12-19-2019, 11:28 AM
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If you live in a warm environment with no AC its a good idea to add a top fan!

My 4500h(the 3600H as well) has 2 small 60/80mm fans, but I use a top mounted 120mm fan set on minimum and makes a significant difference.

3600H + emotiva A300 would be a good start for 7.2.4

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C, Q50a / Fluance Signature Series/ DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-IIReceiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300 Next Speakers: Triangle BR03, Revel Concerta2 M16, KEF LS50, Dynaudio Emit M20, Buchardt S400, Triangle Comet ez, KEF R3
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