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post #31 of 154 Old 02-16-2020, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeAVision View Post
And since I'm going with two rather than one I may not necessarily have to spend over $400 for what I need. After all the room is on the second floor above the kitchen. Too much bass may lead to cracks in the ceiling.
One negative for such a small space is the size though, so keep that in mind.

17-3/16"W x 18-13/16"H x 20-1/16"D

Slightly smaller than the PB12 though which is =17w21hx22d=.

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post #32 of 154 Old 02-16-2020, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
One negative for such a small space is the size though, so keep that in mind.

17-3/16"W x 18-13/16"H x 20-1/16"D

Slightly smaller than the PB12 though which is =17w21hx22d=.

Good point.
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post #33 of 154 Old 02-16-2020, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Having a room underneath your HT room = a huge bass suck-out. I know because I once lived in an apartment where the (huge open plan) living room was above a garage, and stupidly cheaped out on the sub which I never stopped regretting until I finally moved out of that place.

You don't have to worry about a $500 sub causing structural damage, lol. Maybe if you had some truly insane bass monsters like these:
http://jtrspeakers.com/orbit-shifter-pro.html

Bass suck-out, would bass traps help or no? I was planning on putting two up front from floor to ceiling along with acoustical panels. Haven't really research into diffusers yet. If getting cheap on the sub is another issue perhaps the Orbit Shifter Pro Ceiling Buster 3000 that looks like a welder's mask may do the trick. If I'm lucky enough I may be able to bust right through the ceiling and onto the concrete foundation below. After all who needs a kitchen. The HT's concession bar will do just fine lol All jokes aside, it seems to me having at least two SVS PB12-NSDs remains the way to go.
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post #34 of 154 Old 02-16-2020, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
One negative for such a small space is the size though, so keep that in mind.

17-3/16"W x 18-13/16"H x 20-1/16"D

Slightly smaller than the PB12 though which is =17w21hx22d=.

Though a bigger cabinet is better; for the small space I have to work with I am somewhat limited on placement for sure. However I did watch a review on Youtube where someone place two of these in his motor home. So if there is a will there is a way. My initial plan is to arranged them at the front on both sides of the console. I also have a space next to the entrance where I can also place one so they are in opposite corners of each other. Side placements maybe a little more trickier but plausible.
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post #35 of 154 Old 02-16-2020, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Having a room underneath your HT room = a huge bass suck-out. I know because I once lived in an apartment where the (huge open plan) living room was above a garage, and stupidly cheaped out on the sub which I never stopped regretting until I finally moved out of that place.

You don't have to worry about a $500 sub causing structural damage, lol. Maybe if you had some truly insane bass monsters like these:
http://jtrspeakers.com/orbit-shifter-pro.html
How does being on a second level become a bass suck? I know open concept is bad for bass but never heard second level was. I have heard second level is better than concrete as you get an amplification of tactile response. I have three subs in my concrete basement room to get satisfactory tactile response. At the same point I have heard tactile response is easier attainable with ported subs, but in my room sealed sounded cleaner and I got a weighted air pressure I was missing when I tried ported.

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post #36 of 154 Old 02-16-2020, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Joshua Chmiel View Post
How does being on a second level become a bass suck? I know open concept is bad for bass but never heard second level was. I have heard second level is better than concrete as you get an amplification of tactile response. I have three subs in my concrete basement room to get satisfactory tactile response. At the same point I have heard tactile response is easier attainable with ported subs, but in my room sealed sounded cleaner and I got a weighted air pressure I was missing when I tried ported.
Well, in my case the same crappy JBL sub that was hopelessly lost in the upstairs LR, when moved down to the ground floor suddenly became kind of half-decent (i.e. audible), and that was with similar contiguous cubic feet.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #37 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 05:15 AM
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My room size is nearly identical to yours - check out my signature. I already had the Klipsch RF-7 II system and RC-64 II with the matching surrounds for 7.1. Overall, I went with those and was worried I was going to have too much once it was all installed (I’m running separates with 7.1.4 with 200 watts per channel). I’m glad I kept my system because it sounds amazing! With my room treated the way it is, I’m able to watch very close to reference and sometimes at reference. It’s completely enveloping and I love it.

With that said, I did not set a budget, I just bought the additional stuff I wanted. For a budget, I would check out Monoprice - they have some really good speakers and subs online. If you want Klipsch, with I obviously recommend, I would get them from AcousticSoundDesign.com - email for a price. If you need components, ClevelandAV.com. You can also get a good subwoofer at lower prices at HSU Research or SVSound.com. I would stay away from buying anything from a big box store like BestBuy. Ultimately, they have a small selection and everything is over priced. I would only go internet direct. I wouldn’t get anything from Crutchfield either. Accessories4less.com also has some good deals on components.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Routh Family Theater - My Dedicated Home Theater Build - 7.1.4 Atmos Setup
Seymour AV 100" Electronic Masking Screen - Klipsch RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II's, RS-52 II's, CDT-5650 II-C x 4 - PSA V3600I Sub
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post #38 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 05:53 AM
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Well, very tight budget. Just a couple things;
1. You can learn NOTHING about what a speaker sounds like by watching a you tube video. You can learn a lot about a speaker, but...I remember watching a you tube video of my Philharmonic BMRs, played on my Philharmonic BMRs and it made my Philharmonic BMRs sound completely unlike my Philharmonic BMRs! Crappy recording, cheap mic, bad rooms and of course, the video you are playing will end up sound more like the speakers you are playing it on that the ones portrayed!
2. Chanes are good speakers and would fit nicely into a tight budget. if you can, give them a listen. They won't be as dynamic/forward as Klipsch, but will have clarity, detail and accuracy that will impress.
3. With you small space, maybe two small subwoofers rather than one really big/good one? If you can still get the SVS PB12 for 499.00 shipped, two of those would rock that room.
4. Might be tough, by try to find the AVrec you need for 500! You got a pretty small room, so you don't need a ton of power...especially if you end up with sensitive speakers like Klipsch!

Set up #1: EMP e5Ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, SVS NSD SB12 sub, Integra AV receiver
Set up #2: Def Tech CA Aero 2, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and EMPtek10i10i sub, Slimline AV receiver
Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only, Integra AV receiver
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post #39 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 08:12 AM
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I would only go internet direct. I wouldn’t get anything from Crutchfield either. Accessories4less.com also has some good deals on components.
That's a bit odd considering that Crutchfield often has tremendous deals, (Martin Logan 35XTs just $800/pair at the moment, Lx16s $400/pair), and you can't beat their virtually free return policy on stand mount speakers and their excellent flat $75/pair return shipping fee on towers within 60 days. A4L offers great products as well but horrific return policy.

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post #40 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 08:15 AM
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They have some good deals, but better ones can be found if you go the right places.

Routh Family Theater - My Dedicated Home Theater Build - 7.1.4 Atmos Setup
Seymour AV 100" Electronic Masking Screen - Klipsch RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II's, RS-52 II's, CDT-5650 II-C x 4 - PSA V3600I Sub
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post #41 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the advice. I do hope Joshua Chmiel is right as I have no way to move the HT to another room downstairs. If I get a better set of SVS subs within my budget as Zorba922 suggested and place them correctly in the room perhaps I maybe able to overpower any bass suck-out that may occur. I'm not sure if raising them off the carpet using isolation feet will do anything but just a thought. Unfortunately I will either have to wait for the SVS PB12-NSD which are out of stock or pay a bit more for the SVS PB-2000 which is currently on sale right now. I'm still wondering if there's any difference in having the port above the speaker compared to below it.


I'm going to hold off on the ceiling Atmos speakers until I have a better idea of what I will ultimately go with for my LCR and back speakers. Timber matching seems to make a big difference for many folks when investing in good speakers. Even Dolby recommends it. After all, I may not be listening to just music on its own but if I'm watching a movie you always have those soundtracks to worry about. The subs will handle the bass so I know I don't need anything with full range. The only reason I'm leaning towards Elac and Klipsch is I had a chance to listen to them at Best Buy. Not necessarily in an ideal environment but at least had a chance to hear them. There are so many great speakers out there from what I've gathered but only a very few get their products out there for average consumers like myself to notice and try out in person. Perhaps its just me but Klipsch seems to come up more often than compared any other brands. Also, I have no intention of ordering through Best Buy either. Most if not all my purchasing will be direct from the dealer or manufacturer or through Amazon from sellers who are authorized. The only reason I'm ordering the bookshelf speakers from Crutchfield is due to their very lenient 60 day return policy. I don't want to be hit with any restocking fees just so I can determine the right brand for me. I hope after listening to four or five different brands with the options I need I can finally come to a decision. I do realize in time I may swap these out so its not like I'm picking out my coffin. Or at least I hope not. I'm sure my wallet will have a different opinion on that.
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post #42 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Just thinking out loud here but did SVS move the port below the woofer because of the issue of the front grill falling off during use. I know many prefer to keep the grill off but I prefer to use it as a means to avoid any damage due to exposure.
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post #43 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 09:34 AM
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Thanks for all the advice. I do hope Joshua Chmiel is right as I have no way to move the HT to another room downstairs. If I get a better set of SVS subs within my budget as Zorba922 suggested and place them correctly in the room perhaps I maybe able to overpower any bass suck-out that may occur. I'm not sure if raising them off the carpet using isolation feet will do anything but just a thought. Unfortunately I will either have to wait for the SVS PB12-NSD which are out of stock or pay a bit more for the SVS PB-2000 which is currently on sale right now. I'm still wondering if there's any difference in having the port above the speaker compared to below it.


I'm going to hold off on the ceiling Atmos speakers until I have a better idea of what I will ultimately go with for my LCR and back speakers. Timber matching seems to make a big difference for many folks when investing in good speakers. Even Dolby recommends it. After all, I may not be listening to just music on its own but if I'm watching a movie you always have those soundtracks to worry about. The subs will handle the bass so I know I don't need anything with full range. The only reason I'm leaning towards Elac and Klipsch is I had a chance to listen to them at Best Buy. Not necessarily in an ideal environment but at least had a chance to hear them. There are so many great speakers out there from what I've gathered but only a very few get their products out there for average consumers like myself to notice and try out in person. Perhaps its just me but Klipsch seems to come up more often than compared any other brands. Also, I have no intention of ordering through Best Buy either. Most if not all my purchasing will be direct from the dealer or manufacturer or through Amazon from sellers who are authorized. The only reason I'm ordering the bookshelf speakers from Crutchfield is due to their very lenient 60 day return policy. I don't want to be hit with any restocking fees just so I can determine the right brand for me. I hope after listening to four or five different brands with the options I need I can finally come to a decision. I do realize in time I may swap these out so its not like I'm picking out my coffin. Or at least I hope not. I'm sure my wallet will have a different opinion on that.
You can't "overpower" a bass suckout. It's like trying to fill a bottomless pit. The only way to overcome any large dip in bass frequency response is to place the subs and seating well, to overcome whatever issues the room is presenting. Position, not power is the key.
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post #44 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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You can't "overpower" a bass suckout. It's like trying to fill a bottomless pit. The only way to overcome any large dip in bass frequency response is to place the subs and seating well, to overcome whatever issues the room is presenting. Position, not power is the key.

Thank you. So if I have to move these around I may have to go smaller then as gajCA pointed out. This is exactly why a noob like myself needs to do as much research before hand. Not to over analyze but to make well informed purchasing decisions.
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post #45 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 10:01 AM
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Thank you. So if I have to move these around I may have to go smaller then as gajCA pointed out. This is exactly why a noob like myself needs to do as much research before hand. Not to over analyze but to make well informed purchasing decisions.
Some tested placement options:

https://www.aperionaudio.com/blogs/a...-for-your-home

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post #46 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Awesome, thanks. I'm familiar with a few of those sub placements. The mid wall is the only real concern due to the small space I have. The AC unit cuts into the room from the rear corner which severely limits my options on seating arrangements without moving them back up against the wall canceling out the space for the rear speakers.
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post #47 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 11:13 AM
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You can't "overpower" a bass suckout. It's like trying to fill a bottomless pit. The only way to overcome any large dip in bass frequency response is to place the subs and seating well, to overcome whatever issues the room is presenting. Position, not power is the key.
He is absolutely correct about the suckout. My question to Zobra was about being on a second level being the CAUSE. I personally have not seen/heard anything like that. I think the SVS NSD PB12 at $500 is a solid choice for the money. If you go with PB2000 it will be able to get louder and probably more tactile rumble as it will produce higher SPL at the lower end frequencies. If you are willing to spend PB2000 money I think you should consider looking at other sub brands. I have no experience with HSU, Rythmic, or Monolith but all get solid reviews. I have PSA including a PSA V1500. I know how strong they are. New they are out of your budget but they have some great deals on B-Stock which is in your budget. Great thing about that is they still give you a fresh 5 year warranty as if they were new and will take them back towards trade of an upgrade at a later date. For me personally when I was shopping the NSD series wasn't readily available, even though my cousin's PC2000 was better than what I had I wasn't overly impressed with it for the money, I didn't get impressed with the SVS line auditioning until I reached the 4000 series (3000 wasn't out then). I took a chance on the PSA XS-30se B-Stock and I am glad I did.

7.3.4 Setup---TV: LG OLED 65B7A, Receiver: Marantz SR-6012, External 2-channel amplifier: Marantz MM7025 (Front Towers), Blu-Ray Player: LG UBK90, Fronts: JBL S312, Center: JBL S-Center, Surrounds: JBL S38, Surround Backs: JBL S36 ,Top: JBL S36 (4), Subwoofer: 2 PSA S3000i and one PSA XS-30se
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post #48 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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He is absolutely correct about the suckout. My question to Zobra was about being on a second level being the CAUSE. I personally have not seen/heard anything like that. I think the SVS NSD PB12 at $500 is a solid choice for the money. If you go with PB2000 it will be able to get louder and probably more tactile rumble as it will produce higher SPL at the lower end frequencies. If you are willing to spend PB2000 money I think you should consider looking at other sub brands. I have no experience with HSU, Rythmic, or Monolith but all get solid reviews. I have PSA including a PSA V1500. I know how strong they are. New they are out of your budget but they have some great deals on B-Stock which is in your budget. Great thing about that is they still give you a fresh 5 year warranty as if they were new and will take them back towards trade of an upgrade at a later date. For me personally when I was shopping the NSD series wasn't readily available, even though my cousin's PC2000 was better than what I had I wasn't overly impressed with it for the money, I didn't get impressed with the SVS line auditioning until I reached the 4000 series (3000 wasn't out then). I took a chance on the PSA XS-30se B-Stock and I am glad I did.

Thank you again for all your advice. So many good choices here. Narrowing things down is going to be a real journey. Its like a whole new world has opened up to me.
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Thank you again for all your advice. So many good choices here. Narrowing things down is going to be a real journey. Its like a whole new world has opened up to me.

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post #50 of 154 Old 02-17-2020, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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post #51 of 154 Old 02-18-2020, 07:12 PM
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@BeeAVision PSA on their Facebook page posted an update on their B-Stock today. They have a pair of S3000i subs for $1650. That is a rocking deal! Even though they are sealed subs they will slaughter the PB2000 in performance. Both subs are about the same size but the S3000i has (2) 15" drivers and 1700W RMS (4300W PEAK) amplifier. The PB2000 has remote and app access but only a 12" driver with a 550W RMS (1500W PEAK) amplifier. Even though used, still get 5 year warranty. Just making you aware of a great bargain.
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post #52 of 154 Old 02-28-2020, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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@BeeAVision PSA on their Facebook page posted an update on their B-Stock today. They have a pair of S3000i subs for $1650. That is a rocking deal! Even though they are sealed subs they will slaughter the PB2000 in performance. Both subs are about the same size but the S3000i has (2) 15" drivers and 1700W RMS (4300W PEAK) amplifier. The PB2000 has remote and app access but only a 12" driver with a 550W RMS (1500W PEAK) amplifier. Even though used, still get 5 year warranty. Just making you aware of a great bargain.

Thank you so much for the information. I did look into the S3000i earlier but have decided that if I'm going to go with dual subs I need to stay around $500 for each. I'm also going with ported over sealed. I almost pulled the trigger on two SVS PB12-NSD subs but unfortunately I just missed the boat on that deal. Though I'm not too fond of the woofer and grill design on the HSU VTF-2 MK-5 at $539 I would purchase two if it weren't for the added high cost for shipping. I also still don't have a receiver yet to test different brands of speakers with. Still waiting for the price on the Denon AVR-X3600H to come down to $900. It was $800 back in January so if I just wait it out some more and pick it up when the price is low I will then hopefully be able to use the extra savings towards purchasing a good set of LCR speakers. There was a quick price drop for the Denon at $933 on Amazon according to Keepa.com but it started and ended during the very early hours this morning. If only I didn't have to sleep. lol

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post #53 of 154 Old 02-28-2020, 07:32 AM
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Though I'm not too fond of the woofer and grill design on the HSU VTF-2 MK-5 at $539 I would purchase two if it weren't for the added high cost for shipping.
The Rythmik LV12-F would also be worth consideration.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #54 of 154 Old 02-28-2020, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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The Rythmik LV12-F would also be worth consideration.

I looked at those as well but there isn't much reviews on that particular model. Just a few recommendations there and there. The direct servo feature sounds interesting. I also read some where that SVS is no longer going to do another production run of the PB12 NSD. Apparently 2019 was the last year for that model. My luck, go figure. I will try and find the link again. I think I bookmarked it. Perhaps I'll just give them a call.

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post #55 of 154 Old 02-28-2020, 09:52 PM
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I looked at those as well but there isn't much reviews on that particular model. Just a few recommendations there and there. The direct servo feature sounds interesting.
That might be due to the fact that Rythmik hasn't been around as long as SVS and Hsu, and their online marketing has not been nearly as consistent or aggressive, esp. compared to the former.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #56 of 154 Old 02-29-2020, 06:01 AM
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Thank you so much for the information. I did look into the S3000i earlier but have decided that if I'm going to go with dual subs I need to stay around $500 for each. I'm also going with ported over sealed. I almost pulled the trigger on two SVS PB12-NSD subs but unfortunately I just missed the boat on that deal. Though I'm not too fond of the woofer and grill design on the HSU VTF-2 MK-5 at $539 I would purchase two if it weren't for the added high cost for shipping. I also still don't have a receiver yet to test different brands of speakers with. Still waiting for the price on the Denon AVR-X3600H to come down to $900. It was $800 back in January so if I just wait it out some more and pick it up when the price is low I will then hopefully be able to use the extra savings towards purchasing a good set of LCR speakers. There was a quick price drop for the Denon at $933 on Amazon according to Keepa.com but it started and ended during the very early hours this morning. If only I didn't have to sleep. lol
You can get the X3600 for less than that at accessories4less.com. It’s a manufacture refurbished unit that comes with a 3 year warranty. I’ve purchased there in the past an received good quality equipment.

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You can get the X3600 for less than that at accessories4less.com. It’s a manufacture refurbished unit that comes with a 3 year warranty. I’ve purchased there in the past an received good quality equipment.

Thanks for sharing. I've looked into A4L and have seen the Denon X3600H for as low as $899 new but have been somewhat hesitant to purchase from them. I'm sure they are good people but have read countless reviews of products being doa among a few other things. The receiver is the heart of the system so its critical I purchase it new. If a speaker goes out no problem just a small setback but if the receiver fails my whole system is down for a week or more until the issue is fixed. There are many good reviews out there too but it almost seems like a toss up. I'm sure there is user error in there somewhere as well but not worth the risk despite the warranty. I may use them to purchase cables and other accessories though if the price is right.



Btw, when I was younger people mistook me as Harry Potter. So its nice to meet you Tom. lol
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That might be due to the fact that Rythmik hasn't been around as long as SVS and Hsu, and their online marketing has not been nearly as consistent or aggressive, esp. compared to the former.

I saw some reviews and a couple of Youtube videos on their 15" subs and they sounded very good. Of course, a 15" sub is a bit too big for my needs. The space is about 1400 cubic feet. And that's a rounded up figure. Basically a medium sized bedroom.
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I saw some reviews and a couple of Youtube videos on their 15" subs and they sounded very good. Of course, a 15" sub is a bit too big for my needs. The space is about 1400 cubic feet. And that's a rounded up figure. Basically a medium sized bedroom.
Why don't you just start with the free return speedwoofer 10s as you have such a tiny space and with room gain that sub will hit the mid 20s.

I've owned sealed servo subs since the mid 1980s, servo is what separates Rhythmik from other "affordable" sub makers, (in my case it was from Velodyne but they are no longer a contender due to high price, poor service), and my replacement for my current DD15 will be dual Rhythmik sealed 12s.

But as you are on the fence just start with the Speedwoofer as you have zero to lose financially.

One AVS member a few years back replaced his SVS SB1000 with one and was blown away by the improvement.

So you might be impressed to.

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post #60 of 154 Old 02-29-2020, 01:33 PM
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Thanks for sharing. I've looked into A4L and have seen the Denon X3600H for as low as $899 new but have been somewhat hesitant to purchase from them. I'm sure they are good people but have read countless reviews of products being doa among a few other things. The receiver is the heart of the system so its critical I purchase it new. If a speaker goes out no problem just a small setback but if the receiver fails my whole system is down for a week or more until the issue is fixed. There are many good reviews out there too but it almost seems like a toss up. I'm sure there is user error in there somewhere as well but not worth the risk despite the warranty. I may use them to purchase cables and other accessories though if the price is right.



Btw, when I was younger people mistook me as Harry Potter. So its nice to meet you Tom. lol
Completely understand. It was several years ago when I purchased from there due to them having an excellent deal on a Marantz SR7008 receiver. I didn’t have any issues, but I’m sure there are others that do.

Other great places to purchase are ClevelandAV.com and AcousticSoundDesign.com. If you email or call for a price, you can get some great deals. I’ve purchased several products from both and they have great prices and service.

That’s funny. When I was younger I had several people mistake me for Kevin McCallister (Macaulay Culken) from Home Alone. Typically it would be kids pointing at me and telling their parents, “Home Alone”! Lol. I was 10 when the movie came out, so it happened for a couple of years.

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Seymour AV 100" Electronic Masking Screen - Klipsch RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II's, RS-52 II's, CDT-5650 II-C x 4 - PSA V3600I Sub
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