Listening impressions: Ascend Sierra 2-EX vs. Revel F206 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 364Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 10:38 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 828 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
In addition to Bill's comments about recording quality, there is also the larger question about whether one is an "analytical" music listener or an "emotional involvement" listener.

The first type, which seems to be more common on AVS, is someone who likes to listen as if standing on the OUTSIDE looking in, who enjoys noticing every small detail, imaging characteristics, soundstage height/width, etc.

The second values the more intangible, unmeasurable experience of the speaker making the music "real" even if it's not 100% "accurate" or "what the artist (presumably) intended" yadda yadda---they want to be drawn INTO the music and completely bypass all such sterile, analytical mental activity during listening.
I'm No. 2. When I'm in the shower listening to my Sonos One, I'm singing along with George Thorogood and having the best time. But for my critical listening I just want to recreate that amazing sound I heard at the Bose showroom (enclosed listening room) in Palo Alto. It was a 2.1 system (their best at the time) and perfectly tuned to the room and the room was a perfect acoustically treated room. They put a lot of $$$ into that showroom because they sell a lot of expensive systems to rich people there

Last edited by Vikram Iyengar; 02-10-2020 at 10:49 AM.
Vikram Iyengar is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 10:39 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Is Amazon HD same quality as Idal HiFi, which I have?
All of Amazon HD is CD quality or better. I don't know about Idal, but standard CD quality 44.1/16 has enough resolution that so called higher resolution audio likely offers no audible benefits in and of itself. That being said, some high res recordings might be a better master, but it might not. You have to research individual releases to know that.

So I would make your decision based upon price, usability of the interface, and content availability and not worry about sound quality.
Lp85253 and Vikram Iyengar like this.
raistlin65 is online now  
post #33 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 10:44 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 14,128
Mentioned: 256 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7976 Post(s)
Liked: 6086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
But for my critical listening I just want to recreate that amazing sound I heard at the Bose showroom (enclosed listening room) in Palo Alto
Bose showrooms are rigged platforms.

They are heavily treated, and use proprietary CDs/DVDs that have been carefully EQed to make their crappy equipment sound its best.

That's why people are often bowled over at how nice music sounds in the Bose showroom, only to take it home only to discover that it sounds like dog poo in a real home.

Ditto with many boutique shops' carefully treated rooms, minus the proprietary CDs/DVDs.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 10:52 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 828 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Bose showrooms are rigged platforms.

They are heavily treated, and use proprietary CDs/DVDs that have been carefully EQed to make their crappy equipment sound its best.

That's why people are often bowled over at how nice music sounds in the Bose showroom, only to take it home only to discover that it sounds like dog poo in a real home.

Ditto with many boutique shops' carefully treated rooms, minus the proprietary CDs/DVDs.
You beat me to the punch. Before reading this last message of yours, I updated my message above to say about the treating. They did let me play my own music though. Their audio system in my wife's and @gajCA 's wife's Mazda is great too -- perfectly tuned and midrange boosted

Unfortunately being a No. 2 in your grouping means I cannot really go by reviews (like I did with the Xeo 10). I'll have to audition one after another to arrive at the best one for me. At above 75 dB my Polk s15 sound is all I need really -- I mean that freq response completely suits me

EDIT. I just plugged my TV into the Xeo 10. Perfectly transparent audiophile speakers are terrible for HT I just found out

Last edited by Vikram Iyengar; 02-10-2020 at 11:23 AM.
Vikram Iyengar is offline  
post #35 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 10:54 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 828 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
just a thought , talk to Dave at ascend and see if he thinks the sierra 1 with the nrt upgrade might work.. you'll need an amp of course(you knew that)...
Do you mean the Sierra 2EX?
Vikram Iyengar is offline  
post #36 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 02:19 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 3,347
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1948 Post(s)
Liked: 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post



EDIT. I just plugged my TV into the Xeo 10. Perfectly transparent audiophile speakers are terrible for HT I just found out

Not a true statement at all.

A good speaker will sound good with any content. It’s also hard to appreciate a speaker within the hour. Give it some time.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
Russdawg1 is online now  
post #37 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 02:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,796
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2284 Post(s)
Liked: 1955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Do you mean the Sierra 2EX?
no .. ascend has a version of the sierra 1 with a sharper more resolving tweeter(nrt).. pm Dave, he's going to be better able to explain than a hack like me will...
Vikram Iyengar likes this.

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r Dennis Murphy modded emotiva b1's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... infinity alpha 20 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. ascend cbm 170 se... kef q100 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
Lp85253 is offline  
post #38 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 03:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 828 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
A good speaker will sound good with any content.
Not a true statement at all. A speaker that sounds good to one may not sound good to another. Audio is subjective in what sounds good to a specific person. Measurements are objective but one's appreciation of sounds is not. The Xeo 10 without running EQ (they have no EQ) sound terrible for HT to me.
Vikram Iyengar is offline  
post #39 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 03:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 828 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
no .. ascend has a version of the sierra 1 with a sharper more resolving tweeter(nrt).. pm Dave, he's going to be better able to explain than a hack like me will...
Will look, thanks.
Vikram Iyengar is offline  
post #40 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 04:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 3,347
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1948 Post(s)
Liked: 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Not a true statement at all. A speaker that sounds good to one may not sound good to another. Audio is subjective in what sounds good to a specific person. Measurements are objective but one's appreciation of sounds is not. The Xeo 10 without running EQ (they have no EQ) sound terrible for HT to me.

It’s not subjective, and the research has been done. If you were blinded in an ABX test without any biases involved or minimized, you will prefer the speaker with the flatter listening window response 99.5% of the time when bass is a non factor. Now maybe you fall into the 0.5% category due to your slight hearing loss, but the research still applies.

Barring that, why should HT content and music content sound any different and/or need different EQ (or different speakers) to sound best. That is like saying that a song in a movie will sound different from the same exact song from a CD.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
Russdawg1 is online now  
post #41 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 04:32 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
It’s not subjective, and the research has been done. If you were blinded in an ABX test without any biases involved or minimized, you will prefer the speaker with the flatter listening window response 99.5% of the time when bass is a non factor. Now maybe you fall into the 0.5% category due to your slight hearing loss, but the research still applies.

Barring that, why should HT content and music content sound any different and/or need different EQ (or different speakers) to sound best. That is like saying that a song in a movie will sound different from the same exact song from a CD.
Yeah. I don't think it's quite clear that's true about 99.5% of people. When Sean Olive published his research about treble and bass balance adjustment in headphone preferences, he admitted in the comments that the speakers they had tested that were not neutral had other issues as well, and that people do like having some variation in treble and/or bass:

"The early studies involved comparison of different speakers that varied more than bass and treble balance. Some speakers had resonances that produced serious colorations, distortions, differences in directivity. The headphone study basically takes a flat neutral headphone and asks people to adjust the bass and treble. That's where experience and age seem to take over. The same holds true for loudspeakers when we did a similar experience."

"Not really. Prior to this study, I nor anyone I know had published a study where trained and untrained listeners were given a bass and treble control and asked to adjust to taste. In previous studies, trained and untrained listeners were asked to give preference ratings to speakers that varied in ways other than bass and treble. It seems that given some finite choices people will pick the most neutral speaker or headphone (no resonances), wide bandwidth. However, given some tone controls they will adjust for variations in program and taste.

This study does confirm a previous one where we found untrained listeners adjusted the bass and treble of a loudspeaker and headphone higher than trained listeners. That study only had 3 untrained listeners, which is why we did this much larger study.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17042"

Note also that he said people did adjust the bass and treble based on the program material. So yeah. Depending on what you listen to, you want a different speaker or EQ.
Vikram Iyengar likes this.
raistlin65 is online now  
post #42 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 06:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1116 Post(s)
Liked: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by raistlin65 View Post

So yeah. Depending on what you listen to, you want a different speaker or EQ.
The study he was referring to is : A Multiple Regression Model for Predicting Loudspeaker Preference Using Objective Measurements: Part II - Development of the Model

They correlated subjective preference with objective measurements using their algorithm that is a combination of neutral listening window response and a smooth and ideal predicted in-room response, which is basically the early reflections curve. If people truly had wildly different subjective preferences with speakers, there would be no way of predicting preference through measurements.

I think a more fair statement to make is a person's subjective preference is largely based on their biases when it comes to speaker shopping. This is why doing the tests blind and level-matched is the only way to know for sure that the sound quality is the only thing influencing you when comparing speakers.
Muza, CaptinCrunch and kma100 like this.
aarons915 is offline  
post #43 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 07:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 1,782
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 898 Post(s)
Liked: 730
The Harman shills have ruined another good thread...
psuKinger, MUDCAT45 and jsc79 like this.
sigpig is offline  
post #44 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 08:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1116 Post(s)
Liked: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
The Harman shills have ruined another good thread...
I don't own Harman speakers and I don't think Russdawg does either...
Muza, CaptinCrunch, kma100 and 1 others like this.
aarons915 is offline  
post #45 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 08:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MUDCAT45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,121
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 636 Post(s)
Liked: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
The study he was referring to is : A Multiple Regression Model for Predicting Loudspeaker Preference Using Objective Measurements: Part II - Development of the Model

They correlated subjective preference with objective measurements using their algorithm that is a combination of neutral listening window response and a smooth and ideal predicted in-room response, which is basically the early reflections curve. If people truly had wildly different subjective preferences with speakers, there would be no way of predicting preference through measurements.

I think a more fair statement to make is a person's subjective preference is largely based on their biases when it comes to speaker shopping. This is why doing the tests blind and level-matched is the only way to know for sure that the sound quality is the only thing influencing you when comparing speakers.
No doubt you are referring to Harman. I have little faith when they do not publish what their speakers are compared to during these tests.
Also I have little doubt that the staging is made to favor their products. Do you truly believe that no speaker ever beats theirs? If you ask a Yugo dealer how his cars compare to MB do you think he will say mine are crap?
If measurements and blind listening are the end all to buying a speaker I wonder why Harman lags so many manufacturers in sales.
Zorba922 and raistlin65 like this.
MUDCAT45 is offline  
post #46 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 08:35 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 7,760
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3891 Post(s)
Liked: 2259
revel is a great speaker, its nice to know ascend sierra is just as good or better.
psuKinger, Lp85253 and raistlin65 like this.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512
torii is offline  
post #47 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 08:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1116 Post(s)
Liked: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
No doubt you are referring to Harman. I have little faith when they do not publish what their speakers are compared to during these tests.
Also I have little doubt that the staging is made to favor their products. Do you truly believe that no speaker ever beats theirs? If you ask a Yugo dealer how his cars compare to MB do you think he will say mine are crap?
If measurements and blind listening are the end all to buying a speaker I wonder why Harman lags so many manufacturers in sales.
Yes Harman but we're talking about 2 different things, I agree with you when they do their blind tests with consumers and Harman dealers it's more marketing than anything and they already know their speaker is going to win, I also wish they would publish the results and the speakers involved. The study I listed was only trying to equate subjective preference through listening tests with objective measurements, it was meant to be a design tool to make better speakers and not just for Harman, any speaker company can take advantage of the research and some have.

I'm quite sure other speakers have beat theirs, they claim when that happens they go back to the drawing board and improve their model until it does beat the competition, I have no clue how many of these competitors they actually test against, though, which could be the bigger problem. There are many reasons why Harman may or may not lag in sales, I don't have any data on their sales or their competitors so I have no way of knowing if that's true. It doesn't really have anything to do with quality though, there are many good hamburger joints that lags Mcdonalds in sales as well, does that mean Mcdonalds makes the best hamburgers?
Muza, bear123 and vavan like this.
aarons915 is offline  
post #48 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 09:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aarons915's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1116 Post(s)
Liked: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
revel is a great speaker, its nice to know ascend sierra is just as good or better.
Exactly, this is where I'm confused why the anti-science crowd seems to think we're saying that Harman is the only company capable of making good speakers. There have been a few blind tests the last few years where the Harman speaker is beat, so they don't have a monopoly on good sound. This comparison is an example of that even though it wasn't blind but there was the blind test where the Sierra towers beat the F206 as well.
Muza, kma100 and Lp85253 like this.
aarons915 is offline  
post #49 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 09:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 3,347
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1948 Post(s)
Liked: 1549
Listening impressions: Ascend Sierra 2-EX vs. Revel F206

Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
I don't own Harman speakers and I don't think Russdawg does either...

None here, but both of my friends who own their in ceiling speakers love them!

I’m an ascend shill

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)

Last edited by Russdawg1; 02-10-2020 at 09:22 PM.
Russdawg1 is online now  
post #50 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 09:19 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MUDCAT45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,121
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 636 Post(s)
Liked: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Yes Harman but we're talking about 2 different things, I agree with you when they do their blind tests with consumers and Harman dealers it's more marketing than anything and they already know their speaker is going to win, I also wish they would publish the results and the speakers involved. The study I listed was only trying to equate subjective preference through listening tests with objective measurements, it was meant to be a design tool to make better speakers and not just for Harman, any speaker company can take advantage of the research and some have.

I'm quite sure other speakers have beat theirs, they claim when that happens they go back to the drawing board and improve their model until it does beat the competition, I have no clue how many of these competitors they actually test against, though, which could be the bigger problem. There are many reasons why Harman may or may not lag in sales, I don't have any data on their sales or their competitors so I have no way of knowing if that's true. It doesn't really have anything to do with quality though, there are many good hamburger joints that lags Mcdonalds in sales as well, does that mean Mcdonalds makes the best hamburgers?
I must confess that I do not know their sales volumes. I just made a subjective comment based on some things that would indicate that. It is very difficult to find a Harman dealer. I owned Revel's for 6 years and just recently upgraded to Klipsch Forte iii. When talking to others they usually had not heard of Revel. JBL is a different story. Well known and liked by many many people. I still own JBL 580's.
On to the big M. They are like WalMart. Turn the corner and there is one. Convenience often sells better than quality.
Just a thought. Do you prefer Pepsi or Coke?
Vikram Iyengar likes this.
MUDCAT45 is offline  
post #51 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 09:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 3,347
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1948 Post(s)
Liked: 1549
Listening impressions: Ascend Sierra 2-EX vs. Revel F206

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
The Harman shills have ruined another good thread...

I’m just making sure everyone here has the correct info. A statement like “A transparent speaker that is good for music is not good for HT” is not correct, and I provided evidence to back up my claim to Vikram that his statement was incorrect.

You sir, are making it difficult with falsely based statements and no substantial addition to the thread

Shill:

Vikram Iyengar likes this.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
Russdawg1 is online now  
post #52 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 09:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 7,760
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3891 Post(s)
Liked: 2259
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Exactly, this is where I'm confused why the anti-science crowd seems to think we're saying that Harman is the only company capable of making good speakers. There have been a few blind tests the last few years where the Harman speaker is beat, so they don't have a monopoly on good sound. This comparison is an example of that even though it wasn't blind but there was the blind test where the Sierra towers beat the F206 as well.

the problem I have, is when people talk about some speaker being best. or an amp or dac or whatever as best...ofc then I look at my oled c9 tv and think, well dang this is really freaking great lol.
Vikram Iyengar likes this.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512
torii is offline  
post #53 of 273 Old 02-10-2020, 09:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 3,347
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1948 Post(s)
Liked: 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
the problem I have, is when people talk about some speaker being best. or an amp or dac or whatever as best...ofc then I look at my oled c9 tv and think, well dang this is really freaking great lol.

The C9 is a fantastic TV. One of the best I’ve seen. I think we both enjoy ours equally
torii and Vikram Iyengar like this.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
Russdawg1 is online now  
post #54 of 273 Old 02-11-2020, 06:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Bill-99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,738
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Yes Harman but we're talking about 2 different things, I agree with you when they do their blind tests with consumers and Harman dealers it's more marketing than anything and they already know their speaker is going to win, I also wish they would publish the results and the speakers involved. The study I listed was only trying to equate subjective preference through listening tests with objective measurements, it was meant to be a design tool to make better speakers and not just for Harman, any speaker company can take advantage of the research and some have.

I'm quite sure other speakers have beat theirs, they claim when that happens they go back to the drawing board and improve their model until it does beat the competition, I have no clue how many of these competitors they actually test against, though, which could be the bigger problem. There are many reasons why Harman may or may not lag in sales, I don't have any data on their sales or their competitors so I have no way of knowing if that's true. It doesn't really have anything to do with quality though, there are many good hamburger joints that lags Mcdonalds in sales as well, does that mean Mcdonalds makes the best hamburgers?
"I also wish they would publish the results and the speakers involved."

IMO this is unlikely to ever happen. It could lead to an endless series of lawsuits against Harman by speaker manufacturers that come up short. I'd bet their lawyers advised against it.

It's easy (for some) to appreciate the contribution that Harman has and is making, but they are not an independent certification body. There doesn't seem to be any such entity in the United States. An independent organization could take this on but it's not a small investment, how to fund it isn't clear, and it would still have to deal with resource-draining lawsuits.

This leaves consumers with mash-ups of objective data, subjective data, and outright misinformation that add risk to speaker buying where a wrong decision incurs a financial penalty. Many speaker manufacturers seem to like it this way since an informed consumer would likely result in fewer sales.

We are not in a good place and it seems unlikely to change any time soon. I'm not saying it's impossible to buy great speakers but it certainly isn't easy to make informed choices.
Vikram Iyengar and raistlin65 like this.


5.1.0 System: Anthem AVM 60 | Anthem Statement A5 | Revel F208s, C208, M106s | Velodyne FSR-12 | Samsung UN65KS800DF | Oppo UDP-203 | Roku Premiere+ | DIY HTPC | Logitech Harmony Companion | Amazon Echo Dot
Bill-99 is offline  
post #55 of 273 Old 02-11-2020, 07:21 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 828 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
"I also wish they would publish the results and the speakers involved."

IMO this is unlikely to ever happen. It could lead to an endless series of lawsuits against Harman by speaker manufacturers that come up short. I'd bet their lawyers advised against it.

It's easy (for some) to appreciate the contribution that Harman has and is making, but they are not an independent certification body. There doesn't seem to be any such entity in the United States. An independent organization could take this on but it's not a small investment, how to fund it isn't clear, and it would still have to deal with resource-draining lawsuits.

This leaves consumers with mash-ups of objective data, subjective data, and outright misinformation that add risk to speaker buying where a wrong decision incurs a financial penalty. Many speaker manufacturers seem to like it this way since an informed consumer would likely result in fewer sales.

We are not in a good place and it seems unlikely to change any time soon. I'm not saying it's impossible to buy great speakers but it certainly isn't easy to make informed choices.
Bill, are you running for President? You sound like a candidate and a better campaigner than the wonkish Russ who's strong on policy but unable to forge a connection to the working-class audiophile
Bill-99, psuKinger and Lp85253 like this.
Vikram Iyengar is offline  
post #56 of 273 Old 02-11-2020, 07:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Bill-99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,738
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Iyengar View Post
Bill, are you running for President? You sound like a candidate and a better campaigner than the wonkish Russ who's strong on policy but unable to forge a connection to the working-class audiophile
lol, No, just disillusioned with the current state of the industry. My background is science so that tends to lead me down the objective-data path which is a currently mess for loudspeakers (and lots of other products).

But let's go way back to the top of this discussion.

As my signature shows, I have Revel F208's in my home theater so when this post comparing the F206 to the Ascend Sierra 2-EX showed up, I was interested. Before Revel, my system had speakers from an ID that has since changed hands and has unfortunately gone down hill. Those speakers were pretty decent but the Revels are at a much higher level of performance. Not saying that in absolute terms, just in comparison to my old gear.

During the auditioning process I heard the F206's on a number of occasions. The first time there was an bad gear match and the speakers sounded awful and distorted. Drove me out of the room. Subsequently, I heard them with much better electronics and they sounded pretty good but somewhat light on the low end for my needs. Then I heard the F208's which is where I landed. They've worked out pretty well... within limits. They sound great with great source material, less so with lesser recordings, and they sound awful with bad recordings. You pay your money, you take your chances.

Regardless, I've not forgotten what IDs can offer and I'd like to hear the Ascend Sierra 2-EX one day.
vavan and Vikram Iyengar like this.


5.1.0 System: Anthem AVM 60 | Anthem Statement A5 | Revel F208s, C208, M106s | Velodyne FSR-12 | Samsung UN65KS800DF | Oppo UDP-203 | Roku Premiere+ | DIY HTPC | Logitech Harmony Companion | Amazon Echo Dot
Bill-99 is offline  
post #57 of 273 Old 02-11-2020, 08:03 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 828 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
lol, No, just disillusioned with the current state of the industry. My background is science so that tends to lead me down the objective-data path which is a currently mess for loudspeakers (and lots of other products).

But let's go way back to the top of this discussion.

As my signature shows, I have Revel F208's in my home theater so when this post comparing the F206 to the Ascend Sierra 2-EX showed up, I was interested. Before Revel, my system had speakers from an ID that has since changed hands and has unfortunately gone down hill. Those speakers were pretty decent but the Revels are at a much higher level of performance. Not saying that in absolute terms, just in comparison to my old gear.

During the auditioning process I heard the F206's on a number of occasions. The first time there was an bad gear match and the speakers sounded awful and distorted. Drove me out of the room. Subsequently, I heard them with much better electronics and they sounded pretty good but somewhat light on the low end for my needs. Then I heard the F208's which is where I landed. They've worked out pretty well... within limits. They sound great with great source material, less so with lesser recordings, and they sound awful with bad recordings. You pay your money, you take your chances.

Regardless, I've not forgotten what IDs can offer and I'd like to hear the Ascend Sierra 2-EX one day.
Abs. These Xeo 10 sound great with Tidal HiFi (better than CD) but not good with my old, bad mp3s
Vikram Iyengar is offline  
post #58 of 273 Old 02-11-2020, 08:20 AM
Member
 
morasp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 116
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 29
It would be interesting to see a comparison of the Ascend Sierra 2EX center and the three way Wharfedale Evo 4.c

There used to be two European audio companies Linn and Naim. In general Linn was considered more "accurate" but Naim was considered more fun to listen to. After a thirty year quest for accuracy I think I would probably like an accurate speaker as long as it's fun to listen to and makes you want to listen for hours. After reading a lot of reviews of the Wharfedale speakers that was one comment I kept seeing. The other day I was listening to Mark Knopfler with the Diamond 220s in pure direct mode and I wasn't thinking at all about the soundstage, treble detail, or bass extension I just really enjoyed listening to the music. In the end it's not about the equipment but about enjoying the source material.
wrat, yanks1 and Vikram Iyengar like this.

Last edited by morasp; 02-12-2020 at 04:21 PM.
morasp is offline  
post #59 of 273 Old 02-11-2020, 08:34 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
The study he was referring to is : A Multiple Regression Model for Predicting Loudspeaker Preference Using Objective Measurements: Part II - Development of the Model

They correlated subjective preference with objective measurements using their algorithm that is a combination of neutral listening window response and a smooth and ideal predicted in-room response, which is basically the early reflections curve. If people truly had wildly different subjective preferences with speakers, there would be no way of predicting preference through measurements.

I think a more fair statement to make is a person's subjective preference is largely based on their biases when it comes to speaker shopping. This is why doing the tests blind and level-matched is the only way to know for sure that the sound quality is the only thing influencing you when comparing speakers.
Right. That's a 2004 study from Sean Olive, and everyone in the audio hobby ran with the assumption the study's results were conclusive. Then, the comments I posted by Sean Olive are from 2015. He's walking back their earlier conclusions. The neutral speakers from the 2004 study were better in other ways beyond just being neutral. And now he admits that people have some preference for treble and bass adjustment over neutral with speakers, which makes sense based upon all of their findings regarding the Harman Curve.
Vikram Iyengar likes this.
raistlin65 is online now  
post #60 of 273 Old 02-11-2020, 09:04 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 828 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
It’s also hard to appreciate a speaker within the hour. Give it some time.
Russ may be right about give it some time. Two questions: (1) is break-in real? (2) Do soft dome tweeters have poor vertical dispersion? I thought they had good dispersion.

Q1. I played the Xeo 10 continuously the last 3 days and didn't like them. Today, they're much better. But see below.

Q2. I had placed the Xeo 10 on my desktop the last 3 days with tweeter 1' below my ears. Sound was dull. The Xeo 10 stands just arrived and tweeters are at ear level now, much punchier treble and upper mids! The decision to return the Xeo 10 just got harder.

Google Play Music that sounds great on Sonos still doesn't sound great on Xeo 10. But Tidal HiFi (better than CD quality) now amazing on the Xeo 10 especially at lower volumes. But this means I must pay $20 a month?? Wife's gonna kill me.
Vikram Iyengar is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off