Living Room LCR On-Wall - Many Limitations - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Living Room LCR On-Wall - Many Limitations

I posted a while back looking for good on-wall / in-wall. After some review of pre-sheetrock + stud finder, I've arrived at the conclusion I absolutely cannot do in-wall speakers due to a diagonal brace to the right of the TV. TV will ultimately be mounted to the wall, I've been waiting on a speaker setup before pulling the trigger.

This is where it gets tricky, my wife will not allow floor standing speakers or bookshelf speakers. Ideally I'd have L/R on the wall and a proper center in the piece of furniture, or on-wall dual center that can handle 90%+ TV / Movie admirably for the type of space.

I thought about doing either:

Paradigm Decor - concerned about the 150Hz xover; or
Artison Masterpiece Dual Center LCR - Assuming same low frequency limitations
Totem III - but could not use a Totem III on wall center. The center has to be either incorporated in the L/R or in the furniture (25" internal width)
Martin Logan SLM XL - if all is lost and I go the budget route.

With the above I had planned to do dual SVS-SB2000 subs getting both the L/R and LFE to allow them to augment the speakers on each side of the TV Again the wife through a wrench in this plan as I'm allowed one sub, to the right of the TV stand. I could do in-wall subs behind it, but that feels like I'm just over complicating things.

Unfortunately based on all of the options I've thrown out to my wife, this has now become a largely aesthetic decision. I'd still like something that makes movies as enjoyable as possible as this will be the primary room for us for the foreseeable future.

Previous setup was Episode 700 LCR in-wall + Sunfire HRS-12. If I could get back to at least that, or exceed it I would be happy.
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post #2 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 08:52 AM
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What's your budget?

There are more and more solid options for this type of system with every product cycle.

Artcoustic - Lots of options ($$$)
Lyngdorf - (FR-1 / MH-2) they also have matching on-wall subwoofers
Dali - (Rubicon LCR / Opticon LCR / Oberon On-Wall)
Triad - Lots of custom options (including on-wall subwoofers that can be painted to match)

These are just a few options. Most brands now carry this type of product.

Main System: Vizio P70 4K TV. Selah Vigore Speakers. KEF Q100 Rear L/R, Mirage BPS 400 LFE Sub. (2x)Rythmik FM8 Subs. Denon AVR-X4500H Receiver. Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Integrated (2 channel). Oppo BDP-103. Zappiti Mini 4K HDR. GIK 242 Panels, Tri Traps, Monster Bass Trap. Various Vicoustic Desktop: Dynaudio BM6A mkII. Paradigm SUB10 w/ PBK. Cambridge DACMagic+ DAC. GIK 242 Panels, Monster Bass Trap Master Bedroom: Vizio M55 4K HDR. BG Radia In-Wall/Ceiling Speakers (5.2.2). NAD T758v3 Receiver

Last edited by Nick V; 02-11-2020 at 08:56 AM.
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post #3 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Total budget is about $4K for LRC and Sub.
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post #4 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 09:20 AM
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GoldenEar Supercinema 3D Array XL could be a good option.

There are a lot of "high end" passive LCR "soundbars". Leon and Triad make some nice custom width ones with high-end drivers to match the width of your display

Leon

Main System: Vizio P70 4K TV. Selah Vigore Speakers. KEF Q100 Rear L/R, Mirage BPS 400 LFE Sub. (2x)Rythmik FM8 Subs. Denon AVR-X4500H Receiver. Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Integrated (2 channel). Oppo BDP-103. Zappiti Mini 4K HDR. GIK 242 Panels, Tri Traps, Monster Bass Trap. Various Vicoustic Desktop: Dynaudio BM6A mkII. Paradigm SUB10 w/ PBK. Cambridge DACMagic+ DAC. GIK 242 Panels, Monster Bass Trap Master Bedroom: Vizio M55 4K HDR. BG Radia In-Wall/Ceiling Speakers (5.2.2). NAD T758v3 Receiver
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post #5 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 09:34 AM
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James Loudspeaker makes custom speakers, on walls, similar to Triad, but their key selling point is aircraft aluminum enclosures instead of MDF.

They’ll custom paint and size too.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #6 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 09:35 AM
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I like @Nick _V 's Dali and Triad recommendations.

Axiom Audio (highly regarded) probably has the largest selection of on-wall speakers: https://www.axiomaudio.com/in-wall-on-wall-speakers

Since you mention aesthetics, check on the Monitor Audio SoundFrame. 3 different models. They are larger and meant to look like somewhat like hung pictures rather than speakers. The company sells many different grill colors including prints. You can also get them to make custom grills with your own pictures: https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/prod...es/soundframe/

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post #7 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I have looked at some of these (Axiom and Monitor) I very quickly run into a width issue as well. These need to be narrow or I go the soundbar route.
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post #8 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigZAJ View Post
my wife will not allow floor standing speakers or bookshelf speakers.

Unfortunately based on all of the options I've thrown out to my wife, this has now become a largely aesthetic decision. I'd still like something that makes movies as enjoyable as possible as this will be the primary room for us for the foreseeable future.

Previous setup was Episode 700 LCR in-wall + Sunfire HRS-12. If I could get back to at least that, or exceed it I would be happy.
1. Would your wife be willing to do compact bookshelves that are wall-mounted on either side of the TV?

2. If you must do slim on-walls, would your wife accept having just a full-sized boxed center speaker under the TV, sitting on top of a media cabinet? The center does 70-80% of the HT output and 99% of the dialogue, so this is where I would fight her hardest on.

3. Generally, it would be very easy to have a much better sounding system than your previous for much less than what you spent, especially the subwoofer. (Hint: Sunfire subs are abysmal bang for the buck, even worse than SVS.)

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #9 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
1. Would your wife be willing to do compact bookshelves that are wall-mounted on either side of the TV?

2. If you must do slim on-walls, would your wife accept having just a full-sized boxed center speaker under the TV, sitting on top of a media cabinet? The center does 70-80% of the HT output and 99% of the dialogue, so this is where I would fight her hardest on.

3. Generally, it would be very easy to have a much better sounding system than your previous for much less than what you spent, especially the subwoofer. (Hint: Sunfire subs are abysmal bang for the buck, even worse than SVS.)
1. She would potentially, depth is the issue as she wants them thin "like the TV" so talking 4" or less (TV mounted is 3")

2. I would prefer a full-sized box center, but it has to go inside the cabinet so my limitation is 25" wide, height is adjustable and depth is like 18".

3. Open to any and all recommendations for sub, the Sunfire sub was free and lived a long life with us as the second owner. SVS appeared to strike the right balance of price and performance.
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post #10 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 09:56 AM
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or I go the soundbar route.
You'd be better off using a single big center like the Emotiva C2 with a good sub if it passes the WAF test:
https://emotiva.com/products/airmotiv-c2-1

Or a passive soundbar like this...Crutchfield gives you a $10 flat rate return shipping policy just in case the Klipsch tweeters are too much:
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_714HTB...Black-Ash.html

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #11 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
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1. She would potentially, depth is the issue as she wants them thin "like the TV" so talking 4" or less (TV mounted is 3")

2. I would prefer a full-sized box center, but it has to go inside the cabinet so my limitation is 25" wide, height is adjustable and depth is like 18".

3. Open to any and all recommendations for sub, the Sunfire sub was free and lived a long life with us as the second owner. SVS appeared to strike the right balance of price and performance.
This is less than 21" wide and is a sealed cabinet design, would work perfectly inside a cabinet:
https://emotiva.com/collections/loud...ts/airmotiv-c1

As for the sub, how big is your room? Is it totally enclosed, or are there adjacent rooms in an open plan house?

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #12 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 10:07 AM
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Give the Atlantic Technology product line a look. Some of their in wall options might meet your needs. At least one of their <THX> centers looks like it meets the size requirements you laid out, too.

"You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it means."

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post #13 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Living room is 20x20, open to the dining which is open to the kitchen. It's fairly open, see picture. TV wall is ~33feet from where the picture is taken.
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post #14 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 10:44 AM
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Living room is 20x20, open to the dining which is open to the kitchen. It's fairly open, see picture. TV wall is ~33feet from where the picture is taken.
Ok, then if your wife will only allow you one sub, I'd go for a ported, 15" woofer monster like a Hsu VTF-3 or VTF-15. It can be easily tucked into a corner, disguised as a plant and/or lamp table. This will be especially crucial if you're forced to go with on-wall speakers, which are notoriously thin-sounding.

In other words, I would not bother with a sealed sub like the SB2000 unless your wife threatens divorce.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #15 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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So all of the on-walls / soundbars run the gamut.

GENERALLY is it best to:

1. Have a separate, box center channel given it's importance
2. Match the L/R to the center
3. Go big on the sub to fill in the low end

How should I think about the low-frequency response of on-walls and how high Hz makes sense for a big sub that will still blend well?
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post #16 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Leaning (without having heard yet) toward Dali Rubicon.

Has anyone heard the XTZ Spirit series or MK-950?
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post #17 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 03:25 PM
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Since you aren't "allowed" to enjoy your hobby, and are completely and absolutely controlled by another person with no compromise, I would just get some little dinky teacup speakers or a sound bar. Don't pursue your hobby, and just get the smallest, cheapest, most aesthetically invisible option that will make your "partner" happy.

Sorry, man, either that or man up and buy what you want without creating a train wreck that looks horrible.

A nice set of furniture grade floor standing speakers can look beautiful in a room. Seriously, I'd either stand up for yourself, or just get some little Bose crap.

I can just imagine telling my wife what purse she is "allowed" to purchase.......
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post #18 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigZAJ View Post
So all of the on-walls / soundbars run the gamut.

GENERALLY is it best to:

1. Have a separate, box center channel given it's importance
2. Match the L/R to the center
3. Go big on the sub to fill in the low end

How should I think about the low-frequency response of on-walls and how high Hz makes sense for a big sub that will still blend well?
You could do Tribe III for L/R, and the Rainmaker centre: https://totemacoustic.com/product/rainmaker-center/
There is also the Tribe Trio: https://totemacoustic.com/product/solution-bar-trio/
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post #19 of 31 Old 02-11-2020, 06:43 PM
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There's nothing wrong with him (or her) wanting an aesthetically pleasing system, especially in the main living area of a nice new house (or remodel).

I have a pair of these going beside a 65" Samsung "The Frame" TV in my main living area, and I don't feel bad about it for a second.



I think the Dali Rubicon would be a nice option. I owned one of their lifestyle products (Kubik One Soundbar) and it sounded very good in my bedroom system. I would expect the Rubicon LCR to sound significantly better with much better channel separation and with the hybrid tweeter module.

I think they would look and sound great in your room.


Main System: Vizio P70 4K TV. Selah Vigore Speakers. KEF Q100 Rear L/R, Mirage BPS 400 LFE Sub. (2x)Rythmik FM8 Subs. Denon AVR-X4500H Receiver. Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Integrated (2 channel). Oppo BDP-103. Zappiti Mini 4K HDR. GIK 242 Panels, Tri Traps, Monster Bass Trap. Various Vicoustic Desktop: Dynaudio BM6A mkII. Paradigm SUB10 w/ PBK. Cambridge DACMagic+ DAC. GIK 242 Panels, Monster Bass Trap Master Bedroom: Vizio M55 4K HDR. BG Radia In-Wall/Ceiling Speakers (5.2.2). NAD T758v3 Receiver
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post #20 of 31 Old 02-12-2020, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Since you aren't "allowed" to enjoy your hobby, and are completely and absolutely controlled by another person with no compromise, I would just get some little dinky teacup speakers or a sound bar. Don't pursue your hobby, and just get the smallest, cheapest, most aesthetically invisible option that will make your "partner" happy.

Sorry, man, either that or man up and buy what you want without creating a train wreck that looks horrible.

A nice set of furniture grade floor standing speakers can look beautiful in a room. Seriously, I'd either stand up for yourself, or just get some little Bose crap.

I can just imagine telling my wife what purse she is "allowed" to purchase.......
First, I need to find a good compromise in this room because I have a 15x18 media room (currently storage) that I want full liberty with.

Last night I laid out options + price with her and was able to tease out of her what bothers her about current sound (or lack there of). Trade off we made was more options but budget gets reduced. Basically I've arrived at:

(1) Big subwoofer is her primary turn off
(2) Floor standing or bookshelf would be an option if available in white or walnut (she is partial to the KEF look)
(3) Floor standing or bookshelf *ONLY* an option if they are not too big (< 40" tall, ~7-8" wide, ~12" deep)
(4) I can have a sub, but I have to hide it ... likely means wireless connection and hidden next to couch
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post #21 of 31 Old 02-12-2020, 08:41 AM
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I can understand that. I’ve seen a lot of butt ugly living rooms with big ugly boxes hanging obtrusively all over the place with exposed wires running haphazardly everywhere.

If tower speakers are an option, by all means narrow your list down to some good candidates and get her input on a pair that are aesthetically pleasing. I’ll give another recommendation for in walls....you don’t get any better aesthetically and they can be *very* capable and hold a big sound quality advantage over box speakers in a room.

If aesthetics and minimal footprint are extremely high priority I wouldn’t rule out a good Sonos setup with the Sonos wireless sub. No excessive electronics and wiring, through the roof user friendliness, and actual surprisingly good sound quality. Measured performance is actually very good. This system is of course also expandable with additional small speakers that can be placed through the house all with independent control from cell phone.


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post #22 of 31 Old 02-12-2020, 02:43 PM
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The Paradigm Monitor SE series was recently reviewed, they come in white, and are pretty darned good.
I get the necessity of hiding a sub. Since you're planning on having a dedicated space, you could use subs that can go under your furniture: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=33829
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post #23 of 31 Old 02-12-2020, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigZAJ View Post
First, I need to find a good compromise in this room because I have a 15x18 media room (currently storage) that I want full liberty with.

Last night I laid out options + price with her and was able to tease out of her what bothers her about current sound (or lack there of). Trade off we made was more options but budget gets reduced. Basically I've arrived at:

(1) Big subwoofer is her primary turn off
(2) Floor standing or bookshelf would be an option if available in white or walnut (she is partial to the KEF look)
(3) Floor standing or bookshelf *ONLY* an option if they are not too big (< 40" tall, ~7-8" wide, ~12" deep)
(4) I can have a sub, but I have to hide it ... likely means wireless connection and hidden next to couch
Since you will have a dedicated media room I would invest in an attractive high quality soundbar, augmented by a sub you can place near your listening position. Several wireless kits for subs but remember you still need a power source.

Then...go nuts in the media room...that is where your serious viewing and listening is going to take place--the living room is just casual viewing.
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post #24 of 31 Old 02-12-2020, 04:50 PM
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No reason the Totem III cannot be your center channel speaker. Just place it atop the TV. There are shelves for this purpose as well as brackets that attach to the wall or to the TV's VESA mounts. This would be the better solution, as any on-wall speaker that is placed under the TV would have immediate reflection issues from the cabinet top.
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It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

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post #25 of 31 Old 02-12-2020, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
You could do Tribe III for L/R, and the Rainmaker centre: https://totemacoustic.com/product/rainmaker-center/
There is also the Tribe Trio: https://totemacoustic.com/product/solution-bar-trio/
Yeah, I like this, and also the Model-1 Signature Center, but it'll be more expensive than Rainmaker. Also, sounds like small towers are an option, show her the Totem Tribe Tower:

https://totemacoustic.com/product/tribe-tower/

These are actually smaller than your tolerances at 36" x 7" x 8" roughly, and you're going to get great Torrent performance. These are really nice speakers. Available in white. They meet her criteria, and then some! So maybe she'd let you have a bigger sub.... These dig even lower than the Tribe on-walls.

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #26 of 31 Old 02-12-2020, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigZAJ View Post
Last night I laid out options + price with her and was able to tease out of her what bothers her about current sound (or lack there of). Trade off we made was more options but budget gets reduced. Basically I've arrived at:

(1) Big subwoofer is her primary turn off
(2) Floor standing or bookshelf would be an option if available in white or walnut (she is partial to the KEF look)
(3) Floor standing or bookshelf *ONLY* an option if they are not too big (< 40" tall, ~7-8" wide, ~12" deep)
(4) I can have a sub, but I have to hide it ... likely means wireless connection and hidden next to couch
In that case, I'd jump on these KEFs pronto before she changes her mind:
https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...specifications

https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...r-white/1.html

I think she'll be so thrilled with those pretty white towers you'll be able to "hide" a Hsu VTF-15H right next to your couch just fine...don't think about it, don't tell her about it, just buy the stuff and surprise her...maybe with roses and chocolates as a symbolic "thank you" to seal the deal!

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #27 of 31 Old 02-12-2020, 09:02 PM
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I was going to go with wall mount or in wall but decided I was going to try to keep things clean but not hidden so I went with floor standing and a nice Standout cabinet that keeps all the wires and components nicely hidden. Added built in cooling it’s a sweet cabinet. I can’t stand wires running all over the place.

My wife has been very understanding. We call this room the TV Room, not a dedicated HT room but a place to watch movies and hang out. Or just hang out and talk. We also have a family room which we spend much more time in.



Not obnoxious but not discreet either. You see the speaker and expect things to sound decent.

I’d do the KEF white towers in a heart beat.
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post #28 of 31 Old 02-12-2020, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by residentsystems View Post
Jeez, is your place always that neat and clean? I'm a hopeless clutterbug, not a single furniture surface in any place I've ever lived in has ever been immaculate like that!

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #29 of 31 Old 02-13-2020, 07:19 AM
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Jeez, is your place always that neat and clean? I'm a hopeless clutterbug, not a single furniture surface in any place I've ever lived in has ever been immaculate like that!


That particular corner of the house yes! I did ask the family not to set anything on the media cabinet.

But no I have young kids we have plenty of mess. That said my wife and I don’t do a lot of knick nack type stuff.
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post #30 of 31 Old 02-13-2020, 12:29 PM
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I posted a while back looking for good on-wall / in-wall. After some review of pre-sheetrock + stud finder, I've arrived at the conclusion I absolutely cannot do in-wall speakers due to a diagonal brace to the right of the TV. TV will ultimately be mounted to the wall, I've been waiting on a speaker setup before pulling the trigger.

Just happened to come across this thread...but have you thought about removing/relocating some of the diagonal bracing? Is this an exterior wall or connected to one? Sometimes it's also used in earthquake/hurricane prone places. Sometimes it's a leftover from older builds or was done during building before sheetgoods went up. Might need to have an engineer take a look, but might end up with the look you want. Relocating might be tricky without opening the wall much, but there also might be easier methods now with metal strapping, etc. Good luck!
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