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post #1 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Definitive Technology tower and other speaker questions

Hi everyone,


Working on trying to build a small theater room in an upstairs area. It'll be totally open on one side so it wont be a true theater but it is what it is at this point. I'm a speaker noob coming from a SJ9 soundbar, so to me noise is noise.



I'm looking at speaker prices and types and I honestly don't have a budget, my budget is basically what I feel I need to spend. Originally I wanted to be around $1,500-2000 for a receiver and all the speakers for a 5.1.4 system. My dad has a pioneer (5.1 I think) receiver he's going to give me that's about 10 years old and a sub, so I'm set there for now until I get everything and switch to a 9.2 receiver.


The room is roughly 10x10 with an open side, no door. I started looking at speakers and originally priced them off basic crutchfield speakers to get an idea. But I went to Best Buy (I know, I hate them too) today and had a listen at a few I considered and some I did not.



The first ones were the Klipsch towers, 820/620F. I actually don't know what the difference is here. I believe Best Buy had the 620F for demo, I thought they were nice, sounded good and full.



I went into the room of sound where you wish you could die and stay forever because it sounds amazing. I demoed the ELAC towers for $350, me and my wife thought they sounded pretty good for the price, they were the Debut 2.0. Then we demoed some $2,500 B&W's and were blown away, I actually was shocked by the difference in loudness and clarity and they were punchy. But too much money, way too much.



Then I asked to hear the DT BP9020, I absolutely loved them too. I brought my wife back and put on those 2 speakers and she thought they sounded phenomenal too and she was shocked when I told her it was only 2 towers and not the 5.1.2 we had on with the ELAC setup. The built in subs work surprisingly well and they were very clear and enjoyable. The aesthetic of them is fantastic too, they look very nicely made and are attractive.



I read the owners thread but didn't see much and some reviews and they all seem positive. I'm just wondering on what some opinions are here from owners and audiophiles regarding these speakers. Are they over priced for the money or worth it, I've seen them for $4-500? Am I crazy to think they sound $400 better than the ELAC's?



I fell in love with them but I want some reassurance I'm not over spending lol. Are there other options here to consider?
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post #2 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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More questions, I don’t understand the setup of these speakers. The internal sub has an amp I guess? I know Best Buy had them hooked up with speaker wires to both terminals on the back. I noticed they had an LFE connection also though.

What’s the recommended setup and what’s the benefit here? Either the tower drives the sub or the amp does?
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post #3 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 3Dhereicome View Post
I'm looking at speaker prices and types and I honestly don't have a budget, my budget is basically what I feel I need to spend. Originally I wanted to be around $1,500-2000 for a receiver and all the speakers for a 5.1.4 system. My dad has a pioneer (5.1 I think) receiver he's going to give me that's about 10 years old and a sub, so I'm set there for now until I get everything and switch to a 9.2 receiver.
10 x 10 room with an open side, you want to make sure you have a strong sub unless you don't really watch big budget action/thriller movies. What is your dad's sub that he's giving you? If it's some $100-200 little thing from Best Buy, I'd save that for a desktop or bedroom setup not a HT room.

In such a small room you're better off just doing 5.1.2 or 5.2.2, in large part because there's usually a huge price jump going from a 7 channel receiver to a 9 channel one. For example, a 7 channel Denon receiver can be had for as little as $300-350 brand new from Amazon. But their 9 channel models start at a whopping 4-5 times that amount. The only reasonably priced 9 channel receiver I've seen is the Pioneer LX503 at $600.

$1500-2000 is actually an ample budget, especially if you are willing to look elsewhere not just Best Buy where they have terrible listening conditions/setup except for the B&W speakers which is what they want to upsell you to...the more money comes out of your pocket, the fatter the sales commission which is always a % of the total sale.

Are you comfortable with buying from internet direct manufacturers not found at places like Best Buy? Don't worry, they always come with at least 30 days free in-home trial periods; some have free return shipping and others have subsidized return shipping. THAT is where the best bang for the buck lies, if you are open to it.

People typically buy 2-3 stereo pairs, send back the losers and then buy the rest of the speakers from the winner. The subwoofer brand absolutely does not need to match the speaker brand.

Also, there is no substitute to hearing speakers in YOUR room with its unique acoustics, on YOUR electronics not some shop's boutique amp, and for at least 1-3 hours at a time (the length of time it takes for listening fatigue to set in with "bright" speakers, vs the 5-15 minutes most people spend listening in a shop which lends an advantage to "bright" speakers).
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #4 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 3Dhereicome View Post
More questions, I don’t understand the setup of these speakers. The internal sub has an amp I guess? I know Best Buy had them hooked up with speaker wires to both terminals on the back. I noticed they had an LFE connection also though.

What’s the recommended setup and what’s the benefit here? Either the tower drives the sub or the amp does?
Towers with built-in active subs are just overpriced sales gimmicks, esp. for HT usage where the tiny enclosure and amps of those built-in subs make them next to useless. You will always get much better performance from having a separate, self-powered sub that you can position anywhere in the room it sounds best in (subwoofer placement is critical). I'd happily take a $500 pair of bookshelves or towers with a $500 separate sub over a $5000 pair of towers with built-in subs.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #5 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
10 x 10 room with an open side, you want to make sure you have a strong sub unless you don't really watch big budget action/thriller movies. What is your dad's sub that he's giving you? If it's some $100-200 little thing from Best Buy, I'd save that for a desktop or bedroom setup not a HT room.

In such a small room you're better off just doing 5.1.2 or 5.2.2, in large part because there's usually a huge price jump going from a 7 channel receiver to a 9 channel one. For example, a 7 channel Denon receiver can be had for as little as $300-350 brand new from Amazon. But their 9 channel models start at a whopping 4-5 times that amount. The only reasonably priced 9 channel receiver I've seen is the Pioneer LX503 at $600.

$1500-2000 is actually an ample budget, especially if you are willing to look elsewhere not just Best Buy where they have terrible listening conditions/setup except for the B&W speakers which is what they want to upsell you to...the more money comes out of your pocket, the fatter the sales commission which is always a % of the total sale.

Are you comfortable with buying from internet direct manufacturers not found at places like Best Buy? Don't worry, they always come with at least 30 days free in-home trial periods; some have free return shipping and others have subsidized return shipping. THAT is where the best bang for the buck lies, if you are open to it.

People typically buy 2-3 stereo pairs, send back the losers and then buy the rest of the speakers from the winner. The subwoofer brand absolutely does not need to match the speaker brand.

Also, there is no substitute to hearing speakers in YOUR room with its unique acoustics, on YOUR electronics not some shop's boutique amp, and for at least 1-3 hours at a time (the length of time it takes for listening fatigue to set in with "bright" speakers, vs the 5-15 minutes most people spend listening in a shop which lends an advantage to "bright" speakers).

That's all I watch lol. I don't recall what the sub is tbh, I know it wasn't $100 cheap it was probably $3-400 but I haven't seen it in years. It's more of a stopgap than anything else, good enough bass until I figure out what works and doesn't and it's free, along with the receiver. Gives me something to use while I'm working out everything else.


I've debated between 5.1.2 and 5.1.4. For me there's no advantage to buying a 7.2 channel receiver because I'll probably want a 9.2 setup anyways. I'm over buying at that point but I'd prefer to only buy it once rather than buy a 7.2 and wish I had a 9.2. Also, sidenote, I want to buy very good speakers I can keep and use for a long time so if I move they aren't a sacrifice buy from an old room that was much smaller.



I'm not buying anything from Best Buy lol, I only went because they're the only place around you can hear speakers in such a large setup. But the ELAC, DT, Martin Logans and B&W's we're all in the same room all right next to each other. So I don't think any speaker had any advantage over the other with room conditions. I'm fine with the 30 day listening period, I prefer that actually!



Good point on the listening to them in your own room, that would be ideal. I'll look into that.
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post #6 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Towers with built-in active subs are just overpriced sales gimmicks, esp. for HT usage where the tiny enclosure and amps of those built-in subs make them next to useless. You will always get much better performance from having a separate, self-powered sub that you can position anywhere in the room it sounds best in (subwoofer placement is critical). I'd happily take a $500 pair of bookshelves or towers with a $500 separate sub over a $5000 pair of towers with built-in subs.



My plan was to use a sub still, the one from my dad until I saw how everything performed. To me, the subs were just an added bonus to a great sounding speaker, they added a good amount of bass on their own. Most towers are $300 and up I've seen, any other recommendations? I don't care about the subs in the DT speakers, I just thought they sounded a whole lot better than the ELAC's.
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post #7 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Towers with built-in active subs are just overpriced sales gimmicks, esp. for HT usage where the tiny enclosure and amps of those built-in subs make them next to useless. You will always get much better performance from having a separate, self-powered sub that you can position anywhere in the room it sounds best in (subwoofer placement is critical). I'd happily take a $500 pair of bookshelves or towers with a $500 separate sub over a $5000 pair of towers with built-in subs.
Unless you own these or similar speakers in your setup don't comment on them...I own the 9060 towers in a stereo setup and I'd invite you to hear mine and you would sing a different tune.

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post #8 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 01:19 PM
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That's all I watch lol. I don't recall what the sub is tbh, I know it wasn't $100 cheap it was probably $3-400 but I haven't seen it in years. It's more of a stopgap than anything else, good enough bass until I figure out what works and doesn't and it's free, along with the receiver. Gives me something to use while I'm working out everything else.

I've debated between 5.1.2 and 5.1.4. For me there's no advantage to buying a 7.2 channel receiver because I'll probably want a 9.2 setup anyways. I'm over buying at that point but I'd prefer to only buy it once rather than buy a 7.2 and wish I had a 9.2. Also, sidenote, I want to buy very good speakers I can keep and use for a long time so if I move they aren't a sacrifice buy from an old room that was much smaller.

I'm not buying anything from Best Buy lol, I only went because they're the only place around you can hear speakers in such a large setup. But the ELAC, DT, Martin Logans and B&W's we're all in the same room all right next to each other. So I don't think any speaker had any advantage over the other with room conditions. I'm fine with the 30 day listening period, I prefer that actually!

Good point on the listening to them in your own room, that would be ideal. I'll look into that.
1. A good sub starts at $500. Right now the best deal is the SVS PB12, $500 shipped from Amazon. It's 90% equivalent to the $700 SVS PB2000.

2. If you must have 9 channels, the Pioneer LX503 from Amazon for $600 is the best deal I've seen so far.

3. Some good internet-direct options:
a. Crutchfield.com gives you $10 flat rate return shipping on bookshelf speakers, $75 on towers. Two great deals they currently have are Martin Logan LX16 ($200 ea.) and Klipsch RP160 ($375/pr).
b. RSL, HTD, JBL, and SVS all give you free return shipping. Amazon usually does too, esp. if you are a Prime member. They have some phenomenal deals on NHT speakers.
c. Very safe bets for internet direct speakers: Ascend, Chane, Emotiva, Hsu --- return shipping for a typical pair of bookshelves will cost around $30-50 depending on how far you are from them.

4. By "poor setup at BB" what I meant is stupid things like receiver settings being all wrong (which can make a surprisingly big difference) and also having you listen to bass-heavy speakers vs less bassy speakers side by side without a sub, which tends to make people favor the bassier speaker --- which also happens to be irrelevant since most will be using a subwoofer to fill in the low end anyway at home. Also, crappy speaker placement can make a good speaker sound much worse than it really is.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)

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post #9 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 01:27 PM
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My plan was to use a sub still, the one from my dad until I saw how everything performed. To me, the subs were just an added bonus to a great sounding speaker, they added a good amount of bass on their own. Most towers are $300 and up I've seen, any other recommendations? I don't care about the subs in the DT speakers, I just thought they sounded a whole lot better than the ELAC's.
If you want a good low-cost tower, this is what I'd look at:
https://emotiva.com/collections/loud...iv-t-zero-pair

"Factory renewed" or "B-stock" usually means "surplus A-stock we don't want to discount as A-stock for fear it would hurt our brand image."

You can also look at the Boston Acoustics and Canton towers at accessories4less.com, these are in the $300-500/pr range, way below MSRP.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
If you want a good low-cost tower, this is what I'd look at:

https://emotiva.com/collections/loud...iv-t-zero-pair



"Factory renewed" or "B-stock" usually means "surplus A-stock we don't want to discount as A-stock for fear it would hurt our brand image."



You can also look at the Boston Acoustics and Canton towers at accessories4less.com, these are in the $300-500/pr range, way below MSRP.
If your recommendation only goes as far as emo towers I'd bet my soul you haven't heard certain towers or bookshelves in your own system....correct?

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I believe the Definitives are very impressive. The manufacturer actually recommends just putting a single line to each speaker and use the internal cross over. You can certainly wire them the way BB did. I tried it and just went back to to the single lead. They are more expensive but in reality you are buying 2 pairs of speakers because they are bi polar and fire out the front and back. That is why they really filled the room. However, that also means placement becomes a little trickier to get the most out of them. You will know when the get the correct placement as they will really come alive. Then extra built in sub will help out your amp section by not having to drive the bass with as much power. Certainly not gimmicky.
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post #12 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 02:04 PM
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Hi everyone,


Then I asked to hear the DT BP9020, I absolutely loved them too. I brought my wife back and put on those 2 speakers and she thought they sounded phenomenal too and she was shocked when I told her it was only 2 towers and not the 5.1.2 we had on with the ELAC setup. The built in subs work surprisingly well and they were very clear and enjoyable. The aesthetic of them is fantastic too, they look very nicely made and are attractive.



I read the owners thread but didn't see much and some reviews and they all seem positive. I'm just wondering on what some opinions are here from owners and audiophiles regarding these speakers. Are they over priced for the money or worth it, I've seen them for $4-500? Am I crazy to think they sound $400 better than the ELAC's?



I fell in love with them but I want some reassurance I'm not over spending lol. Are there other options here to consider?
Buy them! I have owned the Def Tech BP9020's and CS-9040 center plus i added the A90 atmos modules that sit on top of the BP9020 for my front sound stage for the last 2 years and they are absolutely the best sounding performing speakers i have owned and i have owned close to 10 different 5.1 or 5.2.2 setups over the years in my small to medium size living room. They are modern looking, built very well and do not take up much floor space. They have a huge sound stage for such a small tower. I have also demo many many speakers including some costing much less and some costing much much more.

They are the most versatile speaker you can buy. They can adopt to most any room and AVR set up which is a big plus when using these speakers. I had 2 different AVR's with these speakers ( Denon X3400H and the lastest Pioneer SC-LX502) and they worked very good with both. There is no such thing as " over spending " on speakers. If they sound good, look good and your happy with them then you got your moneys worth.

The best thing you can do is go listen to speakers and buy what you like and what sounds good to you. Make sure you DEMO speakers in your house and room. Don't rely or trust bias opinions here or any other forum from people that have never owed them or can't afford them. They will bad mouth them or any other speakers because of there own personal taste or budgets.





Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Dhereicome View Post
More questions, I don’t understand the setup of these speakers. The internal sub has an amp I guess? I know Best Buy had them hooked up with speaker wires to both terminals on the back. I noticed they had an LFE connection also though.

What’s the recommended setup and what’s the benefit here? Either the tower drives the sub or the amp does?
Again, these are very versatile speakers and can be connected either way depending on your room, receiver and subwoofer set up. I have had seperates subwoofers and I also used the powered subwoofers in the towers for my subwoofers with no external subs. On the Denon AVR i used the LFE connections to the BP9020's because of the Audyssey XT32 Independent subwoofer calibrations and set the BP9020's to small in the AVR with a cross over set to 80hz. On the Pioneer LX502 i connected the LFE to the BP9020 but ran the speakers as (large) full range. Both set ups worked great!

It's really going to come down to how much bass do you want and what size room you are dealing with as to how your going to connect the powered subs in the towers to your AVR and how your going to use them.

There are many threads about this subject here on AVS. There is no wrong way.

(Living Room) Sony XBR65X950G 4K TV, Harman Kardon Enchant 1300 & HK Enchant subwoofer, Sony UHP-H1 SACD & Panasonic DP-UB420 4K BD players.

(Garage) Sherwood RX-4105 Receiver, Samsung DVD/CD player, Klipsch 2.5 med oak speakers
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Hi everyone,


Working on trying to build a small theater room in an upstairs area. It'll be totally open on one side so it wont be a true theater but it is what it is at this point. I'm a speaker noob coming from a SJ9 soundbar, so to me noise is noise.



I'm looking at speaker prices and types and I honestly don't have a budget, my budget is basically what I feel I need to spend. Originally I wanted to be around $1,500-2000 for a receiver and all the speakers for a 5.1.4 system. My dad has a pioneer (5.1 I think) receiver he's going to give me that's about 10 years old and a sub, so I'm set there for now until I get everything and switch to a 9.2 receiver.


The room is roughly 10x10 with an open side, no door. I started looking at speakers and originally priced them off basic crutchfield speakers to get an idea. But I went to Best Buy (I know, I hate them too) today and had a listen at a few I considered and some I did not.



The first ones were the Klipsch towers, 820/620F. I actually don't know what the difference is here. I believe Best Buy had the 620F for demo, I thought they were nice, sounded good and full.



I went into the room of sound where you wish you could die and stay forever because it sounds amazing. I demoed the ELAC towers for $350, me and my wife thought they sounded pretty good for the price, they were the Debut 2.0. Then we demoed some $2,500 B&W's and were blown away, I actually was shocked by the difference in loudness and clarity and they were punchy. But too much money, way too much.



Then I asked to hear the DT BP9020, I absolutely loved them too. I brought my wife back and put on those 2 speakers and she thought they sounded phenomenal too and she was shocked when I told her it was only 2 towers and not the 5.1.2 we had on with the ELAC setup. The built in subs work surprisingly well and they were very clear and enjoyable. The aesthetic of them is fantastic too, they look very nicely made and are attractive.



I read the owners thread but didn't see much and some reviews and they all seem positive. I'm just wondering on what some opinions are here from owners and audiophiles regarding these speakers. Are they over priced for the money or worth it, I've seen them for $4-500? Am I crazy to think they sound $400 better than the ELAC's?



I fell in love with them but I want some reassurance I'm not over spending lol. Are there other options here to consider?
10x10 is a VERY small space and really won't give any tower, especially one with side firing woofers and backward firing speaker to make it bipolar.

I'm not saying they are bad speakers, many AVS members like them, but they really need some space to work properly.

At almost $1500/pair they eat up most of your budget. The center is another $570.

Your room will fit on walls or stand mount speakers.

I'd order some LX16s and some PSB Alpha 1s from Crutchfield to try at home and send home the loser, as returning them will be free as they will take the $10/box cost to return within 60 days out of the rewards points for the speakers you choose to keep.

I tested the LX16s against my older model B&W CM1 Concept 90s and preferred the LX16s by a tiny hair.

As your room is very small you don't want a subwoofer with a massive cabinet so I'd order an RSL Speedwoofer 10s as it is quite compact yet powerful and has free return shipping should it under perform for you.

Here it is compared to some other solid ported sub choices:

2 years 350watts =15w16h17d= 40 lbs 10" [30hz] $399 RSL SPEEDWOOFER 10S, (extension from Sound & Vision review)

5 years 300watts =15w19h20d= 46 lbs 10" [18hz] $499 SVS PB1000, (extension from Sound & Vision Review)

5 years 400watts =17w21hx22d= 66 lbs 12" [19hz] $500 SVS PB12 NSD, (extension from Sound & Vision Review)

5 years 500watts =15w19h20d= 72 lbs 10" [20hz] $500 MONOPRICE MONOLITH THX 10"

3 years 300watts =16w22h21d= 69 lbs* 12" [19hz] $599 RHYTHMIK LV12F

2 years 350watts =15w21h22d= 62 lbs 12" [18hz] $607 HSU VTF2 MK5, (extension from Audioholics review)
* = shipping weight

Geoff A. J., California
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post #14 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 04:45 PM
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10x10 is a VERY small space and really won't give any tower, especially one with side firing woofers and backward firing speaker to make it bipolar. At almost $1500/pair they eat up most of your budget. The center is another $570.
This.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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1. A good sub starts at $500. Right now the best deal is the SVS PB12, $500 shipped from Amazon. It's 90% equivalent to the $700 SVS PB2000.

2. If you must have 9 channels, the Pioneer LX503 from Amazon for $600 is the best deal I've seen so far.

3. Some good internet-direct options:
a. Crutchfield.com gives you $10 flat rate return shipping on bookshelf speakers, $75 on towers. Two great deals they currently have are Martin Logan LX16 ($200 ea.) and Klipsch RP160 ($375/pr).
b. RSL, HTD, JBL, and SVS all give you free return shipping. Amazon usually does too, esp. if you are a Prime member. They have some phenomenal deals on NHT speakers.
c. Very safe bets for internet direct speakers: Ascend, Chane, Emotiva, Hsu --- return shipping for a typical pair of bookshelves will cost around $30-50 depending on how far you are from them.

4. By "poor setup at BB" what I meant is stupid things like receiver settings being all wrong (which can make a surprisingly big difference) and also having you listen to bass-heavy speakers vs less bassy speakers side by side without a sub, which tends to make people favor the bassier speaker --- which also happens to be irrelevant since most will be using a subwoofer to fill in the low end anyway at home. Also, crappy speaker placement can make a good speaker sound much worse than it really is.
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If you want a good low-cost tower, this is what I'd look at:
https://emotiva.com/collections/loud...iv-t-zero-pair

"Factory renewed" or "B-stock" usually means "surplus A-stock we don't want to discount as A-stock for fear it would hurt our brand image."

You can also look at the Boston Acoustics and Canton towers at accessories4less.com, these are in the $300-500/pr range, way below MSRP.

Perfect! Thanks for the recommendations, I have not decided on the receiver yet but will check that unit out. Are the bookshelf you're recommending for surrounds or in place of towers? Regarding Best Buy, absolutely. I don't listen to a word Best Buy says because usually I'm the more informed person and the vast majority of their associates give you biased information. Per your point though I actually ran the entire demo from their station using the same sub and receiver in each because you can pick and choose what speakers to use. So I was able to compare mostly like for like setups. Not a perfect situation but better then staring at my computer screen reading reviews on crutchfield lol.
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If your recommendation only goes as far as emo towers I'd bet my soul you haven't heard certain towers or bookshelves in your own system....correct?

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What do you mean emo towers?
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I believe the Definitives are very impressive. The manufacturer actually recommends just putting a single line to each speaker and use the internal cross over. You can certainly wire them the way BB did. I tried it and just went back to to the single lead. They are more expensive but in reality you are buying 2 pairs of speakers because they are bi polar and fire out the front and back. That is why they really filled the room. However, that also means placement becomes a little trickier to get the most out of them. You will know when the get the correct placement as they will really come alive. Then extra built in sub will help out your amp section by not having to drive the bass with as much power. Certainly not gimmicky.

Thank you! I found them impressive too and they were much clearer sounding than the ELAC debut's, even though those seem to be highly regarded online. They were no slouch but both me and my wife thought the difference between the 2 was quite large. That was a plus, I thought the internal sub was neat tbh. They were the cheapest tower in the room, outside of the ELAC but sounded better and I figured if I like how the speaker sounded an extra sub doesn't hurt. I told my wife I can still always run a sub and it'll be like having a few subs at that point. Aesthetics was a big part as well, they're sleek and nice looking speakers.
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Buy them! I have owned the Def Tech BP9020's and CS-9040 center plus i added the A90 atmos modules that sit on top of the BP9020 for my front sound stage for the last 2 years and they are absolutely the best sounding performing speakers i have owned and i have owned close to 10 different 5.1 or 5.2.2 setups over the years in my small to medium size living room. They are modern looking, built very well and do not take up much floor space. They have a huge sound stage for such a small tower. I have also demo many many speakers including some costing much less and some costing much much more.

They are the most versatile speaker you can buy. They can adopt to most any room and AVR set up which is a big plus when using these speakers. I had 2 different AVR's with these speakers ( Denon X3400H and the lastest Pioneer SC-LX502) and they worked very good with both. There is no such thing as " over spending " on speakers. If they sound good, look good and your happy with them then you got your moneys worth.

The best thing you can do is go listen to speakers and buy what you like and what sounds good to you. Make sure you DEMO speakers in your house and room. Don't rely or trust bias opinions here or any other forum from people that have never owed them or can't afford them. They will bad mouth them or any other speakers because of there own personal taste or budgets.





Again, these are very versatile speakers and can be connected either way depending on your room, receiver and subwoofer set up. I have had seperates subwoofers and I also used the powered subwoofers in the towers for my subwoofers with no external subs. On the Denon AVR i used the LFE connections to the BP9020's because of the Audyssey XT32 Independent subwoofer calibrations and set the BP9020's to small in the AVR with a cross over set to 80hz. On the Pioneer LX502 i connected the LFE to the BP9020 but ran the speakers as (large) full range. Both set ups worked great!

It's really going to come down to how much bass do you want and what size room you are dealing with as to how your going to connect the powered subs in the towers to your AVR and how your going to use them.

There are many threads about this subject here on AVS. There is no wrong way.

Cool! Thanks! I appreciate the background on the speakers. I too agree about if you enjoy them, the cost is trivial, its only money. What was impressive is that with them in a 2 channel setup with no sub and no center channel both me and my wife were amazed by how much sound they created, especially at lower volumes compared to the ELAC's. I know they're most likely overkill for my space but I'd rather buy too much speaker and move and they be perfect then buy a smaller speaker and wish I had a bigger one in a few years. I just wanted to know if the price/performance ratio seemed on par or if there were over achiever speakers I didn't know about. I'm new to this...Bose, Pioneer, Yamaha, Klipsch, Martin logan, Bowers...I only know the big brands so its easy for my to overlook the vast majority of products on the market.
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post #19 of 107 Old 02-16-2020, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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10x10 is a VERY small space and really won't give any tower, especially one with side firing woofers and backward firing speaker to make it bipolar.

I'm not saying they are bad speakers, many AVS members like them, but they really need some space to work properly.

At almost $1500/pair they eat up most of your budget. The center is another $570.

Your room will fit on walls or stand mount speakers.

I'd order some LX16s and some PSB Alpha 1s from Crutchfield to try at home and send home the loser, as returning them will be free as they will take the $10/box cost to return within 60 days out of the rewards points for the speakers you choose to keep.

I tested the LX16s against my older model B&W CM1 Concept 90s and preferred the LX16s by a tiny hair.

As your room is very small you don't want a subwoofer with a massive cabinet so I'd order an RSL Speedwoofer 10s as it is quite compact yet powerful and has free return shipping should it under perform for you.

Here it is compared to some other solid ported sub choices:

2 years 350watts =15w16h17d= 40 lbs 10" [30hz] $399 RSL SPEEDWOOFER 10S, (extension from Sound & Vision review)

5 years 300watts =15w19h20d= 46 lbs 10" [18hz] $499 SVS PB1000, (extension from Sound & Vision Review)

5 years 400watts =17w21hx22d= 66 lbs 12" [19hz] $500 SVS PB12 NSD, (extension from Sound & Vision Review)

5 years 500watts =15w19h20d= 72 lbs 10" [20hz] $500 MONOPRICE MONOLITH THX 10"

3 years 300watts =16w22h21d= 69 lbs* 12" [19hz] $599 RHYTHMIK LV12F

2 years 350watts =15w21h22d= 62 lbs 12" [18hz] $607 HSU VTF2 MK5, (extension from Audioholics review)
* = shipping weight

Great! Thank you! Regarding budget, I'm willing to buy what I like, it will just take more time. Before today I would have said there's no difference between a $300, $700 and $2500 speaker and you're paying for a name. I heard the difference today, the bowers and wilkins were crazy but I'd still never spend that much. The 9020's can be had for like $450-500 and DT has an ebay page where they have a pair right now for $998. Expensive but that seems like a decent deal for $500 per unless someone can tell me they're not worth their price.



The room is very small lol but my wife nixed me buying a soundbar because she didn't want rears in our living room. So now I'm trying to make a space work, which is mostly a loft. I guess I thought too much speakers is better than not enough and with hardwood floors it would really fill the entire upstairs with sound as its very open. Plus I could keep them for a long time and when I do have a large space, I already have the speakers. The sitting space is 10x10 the overall upstairs area it will be in will be in is closer to 18x10 so its not just a 10x10 box.

But when your wife says “I’d rather you do this upstairs and doesn’t fight you on an entire HT system and a new 75”+ TV you just go for it lol. This opportunity doesn’t happen everyday.



I'll check out those subs, thanks!

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This.

I'm not saying you're wrong because what the hell do I know. But AVSforum cracks me up, people will tell you that you need two 12" $500+ subwoofers for a 10X10 space but a tower is too much speaker lol. It's just ironic, not saying you're wrong.
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This is the space and what the opposing side of the room looks like.
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I'm not saying you're wrong because what the hell do I know. But AVSforum cracks me up, people will tell you that you need two 12" $500+ subwoofers for a 10X10 space but a tower is too much speaker lol. It's just ironic, not saying you're wrong.
It's a 10x10 space but you're on the 2nd floor and there is an open stairwell which means that your sub(s) will interact with ALL the contiguous space, not just the actual listening area. Getting 2 x PB12 would simply be insurance in case you move to a bigger space in the future, so you don't have to go through the costly hassle of selling off small/weak subs to get bigger/stronger ones. If you're 100% sure your current home is gonna be it, then of course you could go with just 1 x PB12 or (better) two smaller subs like 2 x RSL 10S or 2 x SB12 ($400 apiece,). If you want to be conservative, just start with a single RSL sub.

You'll be sitting probably just 8ft away from the speakers, so I wouldn't do anything bigger than a dual woofer tower like the T-Zero or Q Acoustics 3050i, or a dual woofer bookshelf like the Ascend 340SE, Chane A2.4, Hsu HC-1, etc. But you would also be perfectly fine with a single woofer bookshelf all around, esp. if they have 6.5" woofers such as the NHT SuperOne (best value by far), Ascend 170SE, Hsu HB-1, Klipsch RP-160/600, etc. Having 3 identical bookshelves in vertical alignment is actually the acoustic ideal, and aside from saving space and money will actually sound better than a horizontal center with vertical L/R speakers whether they be towers or bookshelves.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)

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Cool! Thanks! I appreciate the background on the speakers. I too agree about if you enjoy them, the cost is trivial, its only money. What was impressive is that with them in a 2 channel setup with no sub and no center channel both me and my wife were amazed by how much sound they created, especially at lower volumes compared to the ELAC's. I know they're most likely overkill for my space but I'd rather buy too much speaker and move and they be perfect then buy a smaller speaker and wish I had a bigger one in a few years. I just wanted to know if the price/performance ratio seemed on par or if there were over achiever speakers I didn't know about.
The ELACs are a rather low bar for comparison, actually...despite all the online hype about them.

The price/performance standouts are IMO Emotiva, Chane, Ascend, HTD, Hsu, and (when on sale) JBL.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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Cool! Thanks! I appreciate the background on the speakers. I too agree about if you enjoy them, the cost is trivial, its only money. What was impressive is that with them in a 2 channel setup with no sub and no center channel both me and my wife were amazed by how much sound they created, especially at lower volumes compared to the ELAC's. I know they're most likely overkill for my space but I'd rather buy too much speaker and move and they be perfect then buy a smaller speaker and wish I had a bigger one in a few years. I just wanted to know if the price/performance ratio seemed on par or if there were over achiever speakers I didn't know about.
The ELACs are a rather low bar for comparison, actually...despite all the online hype about them.

The price/performance standouts are IMO Emotiva, Chane, Ascend, HTD, Hsu, and (when on sale) JBL.
Yeah, I thought they sounded pretty good at first but when I heard the others they really paled in comparison. But you’re also talking speakers double the price.
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Originally Posted by 3Dhereicome View Post
I'm not saying you're wrong because what the hell do I know. But AVSforum cracks me up, people will tell you that you need two 12" $500+ subwoofers for a 10X10 space but a tower is too much speaker lol. It's just ironic, not saying you're wrong.
It's a 10x10 space but you're on the 2nd floor and there is an open stairwell which means that your sub(s) will interact with ALL the contiguous space, not just the actual listening area. Getting 2 x PB12 would simply be insurance in case you move to a bigger space in the future, so you don't have to go through the costly hassle of selling off small/weak subs to get bigger/stronger ones. If you're 100% sure your current home is gonna be it, then of course you could go with just 1 x PB12 or (better) two smaller subs like 2 x RSL 10S or 2 x SB12 ($400 apiece,). If you want to be conservative, just start with a single RSL sub.

You'll be sitting probably just 8ft away from the speakers, so I wouldn't do anything bigger than a dual woofer tower like the T-Zero or Q Acoustics 3050i, or a dual woofer bookshelf like the Ascend 340SE, Chane A2.4, Hsu HC-1, etc. But you would also be perfectly fine with a single woofer bookshelf all around, esp. if they have 6.5" woofers such as the NHT SuperOne (best value by far), Ascend 170SE, Hsu HB-1, Klipsch RP-160/600, etc. Having 3 identical bookshelves in vertical alignment is actually the acoustic ideal, and aside from saving space and money will actually sound better than a horizontal center with vertical L/R speakers whether they be towers or bookshelves.
Perfect, thanks. Are people using a bookshelf speaker as a center channel? Thanks for the insight on the subs, I want to see performance in this space so I can get an idea on what everything will sound like, it’s a difficult spot.

I’ve taken notes and will look through all of these! Thanks for all your help, very appreciated.
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Perfect, thanks. Are people using a bookshelf speaker as a center channel?
Few have the WAF approval to do so, since many spouses are reluctant to start over with a new TV stand or raise the TV on the wall enough. That's the only reason horizontal center speakers even exist: sheer WAF convenience/aesthetics.

If you want to find out more about the pros and cons of various center channel designs:
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...nnel-designs-1

https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...valuation.html

https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...hannel-designs

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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Originally Posted by 3Dhereicome View Post
Perfect, thanks. Are people using a bookshelf speaker as a center channel?
Few have the WAF approval to do so, since many spouses are reluctant to start over with a new TV stand or raise the TV on the wall enough. That's the only reason horizontal center speakers even exist: sheer WAF convenience/aesthetics.

If you want to find out more about the pros and cons of various center channel designs:
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...nnel-designs-1

https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...valuation.html

https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...hannel-designs
Interesting! I’ve never seen a vertical center channel before so it just kind of threw me off.
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I have no WAF but I find its hard to mount the screen High enough to fit a vertical center channel. This is because most prefer screens to be eye level, having the lower 1/3rd of the screen meeting your eye. A screen mounted at that height means the center can't be at ear level without an accoutic transparent screen.

That examples Zorba posted says it all. Look how high up the screen are. They are closer to the ceiling than the floor. Of course this is all personal preference, and it looks like they have recliners , and are close to the screen in the one, so I'm sure it's probably comfortable (at least in that one with the close recliners), but it seems to be less standard from what I've seen on the forums.

I wish I could get my center higher up but my neck would hurt looking up at the screen and I even have recliners.

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Unless you own these or similar speakers in your setup don't comment on them...I own the 9060 towers in a stereo setup and I'd invite you to hear mine and you would sing a different tune.

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I realize this is my first post, but i have been skulking in the shadows for quite some time now and just recently decided to get an account.

i must say i agree with you. i have a pair of 9060's that i just purchased last month to replace my Mirage MX bookshelf's/Energy 10" sub and i am very pleased with them. they hit almost as hard and go almost as low so far. i do feel that if i were to retain the sub (as i have seen many many people recommend) it would be WAY too much and would be a bass heavy system.

i have seen a ton of people criticize DT and these speakers in general, and while i realize there are much better speakers out there i just do not understand all the harsh comments about this company and it's products.
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More questions, I don’t understand the setup of these speakers. The internal sub has an amp I guess? I know Best Buy had them hooked up with speaker wires to both terminals on the back. I noticed they had an LFE connection also though.

What’s the recommended setup and what’s the benefit here? Either the tower drives the sub or the amp does?
DT recommends either regular speaker wire connections and let the internals crossover the sound/speakers OR using the speaker wire connections and the LFE connection but setting the speaker size to small.

i watched a video on Youtube about how to connect these speakers, and i chose what the guy in the video recommended which was wire/lfe connections and setting the speaker size to large making sure the double bass was turned OFF on the receiver.

i am pretty happy with the results of my 9060's, however that being said, IF you were going to entertain the 9040 or 9020, i would recommend having an external sub. when i demo'd those they just didn't have the punch or response the 9060's had.
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