Help us find a good match for our LCR - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 02-20-2020, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Help us find a good match for our LCR

Hey everyone - some of this is cross-posted in dedicated theater design and construction

We have a more or less rectangular shaped room in the basement (roughly 11'9" x 16') with some funny angles and jogs in the back of the room. We also have to deal with ductwork running along one side of the room (1'8" wide, 7" drop), a low dropped ceiling (ceiling is about 6'5" high), and a bump near the back of the room that houses the staircase leading to the basement.

We've really like the Paradigm Premier 800F towers as our speaker of choice for LCR (41.5"H x 9.2"W x 13.75"D). For subs we're considering two Paradigm Monitor Sub 12's. We were also considering two SVS sb2000's.

What would you recommend for side surrounds, rear surrounds and in-ceiling ATMOS speakers? How hard do we need to try to match the Paradigm brand? We want great sound, obviously, but we'd rather not break the bank on these as the majority of our quality sound will be coming from the LCR and the subs (are we thinking correctly about this)? Also, high dispersion speakers or aim-able tweeters?

Thanks in advance :-)
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post #2 of 18 Old 02-20-2020, 09:30 AM
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Hey everyone - some of this is cross-posted in dedicated theater design and construction

We have a more or less rectangular shaped room in the basement (roughly 11'9" x 16') with some funny angles and jogs in the back of the room. We also have to deal with ductwork running along one side of the room (1'8" wide, 7" drop), a low dropped ceiling (ceiling is about 6'5" high), and a bump near the back of the room that houses the staircase leading to the basement.

We've really like the Paradigm Premier 800F towers as our speaker of choice for LCR (41.5"H x 9.2"W x 13.75"D). For subs we're considering two Paradigm Monitor Sub 12's. We were also considering two SVS sb2000's.

What would you recommend for side surrounds, rear surrounds and in-ceiling ATMOS speakers? How hard do we need to try to match the Paradigm brand? We want great sound, obviously, but we'd rather not break the bank on these as the majority of our quality sound will be coming from the LCR and the subs (are we thinking correctly about this)? Also, high dispersion speakers or aim-able tweeters?

Thanks in advance :-)
Paradigm is a good choice as I've yet to hear a Paradigm speaker I didn't like. For the subs I recommend dual SVS PB-2000's rather than SB-2000. The ported version will have much higher output below 40hz which you'll want for HT. As far as surrounds go, it's always best to match but far less critical than matching the LCR. If budget is tight, you can get some used speakers from the pawnshop or local classified for $25-30 and upgrade them later. I have little experience with in-ceiling speakers so I'll let those with more knowledge and experience weight in.
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post #3 of 18 Old 02-20-2020, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan Bernard View Post
Hey everyone - some of this is cross-posted in dedicated theater design and construction

We have a more or less rectangular shaped room in the basement (roughly 11'9" x 16') with some funny angles and jogs in the back of the room. We also have to deal with ductwork running along one side of the room (1'8" wide, 7" drop), a low dropped ceiling (ceiling is about 6'5" high), and a bump near the back of the room that houses the staircase leading to the basement.

We've really like the Paradigm Premier 800F towers as our speaker of choice for LCR (41.5"H x 9.2"W x 13.75"D). For subs we're considering two Paradigm Monitor Sub 12's. We were also considering two SVS sb2000's.

What would you recommend for side surrounds, rear surrounds and in-ceiling ATMOS speakers? How hard do we need to try to match the Paradigm brand? We want great sound, obviously, but we'd rather not break the bank on these as the majority of our quality sound will be coming from the LCR and the subs (are we thinking correctly about this)? Also, high dispersion speakers or aim-able tweeters?

Thanks in advance :-)

Spend more on the LCR and less on the surrounds if you're tight on budget. If you like Paradigm, you should consider the Prestige - give them a listen if you haven't already. Front 3 are the most important, and subs. Spend the bulk of your funds here. Even if that sets you back in time for surrounds. On that, it would be great to match the Paradigms all around, but it may or may not be practical from a space / budget stand point, only you can decide that. If you can't, at least look for speakers with similar design and performance characteristics to the mains.
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7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
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Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
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Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
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post #4 of 18 Old 02-21-2020, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Paradigm is a good choice as I've yet to hear a Paradigm speaker I didn't like. For the subs I recommend dual SVS PB-2000's rather than SB-2000. The ported version will have much higher output below 40hz which you'll want for HT. As far as surrounds go, it's always best to match but far less critical than matching the LCR. If budget is tight, you can get some used speakers from the pawnshop or local classified for $25-30 and upgrade them later. I have little experience with in-ceiling speakers so I'll let those with more knowledge and experience weight in.
Thanks @pase22 !

We considered a ported sub, but leaned away from it because of the larger size of the sub (harder to place in our room), worries that it might be overpowering in our space (~1200-1400 cubic ft, low ceiling), and fears that the bass will be less tight and clear compared to a sealed sub (sure, we like rumble for our HT, but we want our music to sound as good as possible too). Are you thinking two sb2000's (or paradigm monitor sub 12's) would not give us enough low frequency "thump" in our space?

As for surrounds, paradigm sells two-way bi-directional speakers and also bookshelf types for surrounds. Should we lean in one direction or another? Are bi-directional speakers just as good for the object placement technology of ATMOS?

Appreciate the feedback!
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post #5 of 18 Old 02-21-2020, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Spend more on the LCR and less on the surrounds if you're tight on budget. If you like Paradigm, you should consider the Prestige - give them a listen if you haven't already. Front 3 are the most important, and subs. Spend the bulk of your funds here. Even if that sets you back in time for surrounds. On that, it would be great to match the Paradigms all around, but it may or may not be practical from a space / budget stand point, only you can decide that. If you can't, at least look for speakers with similar design and performance characteristics to the mains.
Yes! That's our thinking too. We actually listened to the Prestige and the Premiers side by side and preferred the Premiers - weird eh? They just sounded like there was more separation of instruments and clarity to us. The lower price tag didn't hurt either ;-)

We really can't tell how much our enjoyment of the sound is going to hinge on the quality of the surrounds and in-ceiling speakers. It's just sound effects, more or less, right? Maybe multi-channel music is where differences in quality start to really show? I'm tempted to go super low budget here, but I don't want to create a weak point in the sound envelopment we are trying to create.

One salesman suggested Paradigm H65-R for the ceiling and Paradigm Surround 1 for the surrounds. Any experience with those?

Thanks for the response!

Cheers
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post #6 of 18 Old 02-21-2020, 08:34 AM
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Thanks @pase22 !

We considered a ported sub, but leaned away from it because of the larger size of the sub (harder to place in our room), worries that it might be overpowering in our space (~1200-1400 cubic ft, low ceiling), and fears that the bass will be less tight and clear compared to a sealed sub (sure, we like rumble for our HT, but we want our music to sound as good as possible too). Are you thinking two sb2000's (or paradigm monitor sub 12's) would not give us enough low frequency "thump" in our space?

As for surrounds, paradigm sells two-way bi-directional speakers and also bookshelf types for surrounds. Should we lean in one direction or another? Are bi-directional speakers just as good for the object placement technology of ATMOS?

Appreciate the feedback!
Dual subs would even out response throughout the room and give you a 6db so definitely a good choice.
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post #7 of 18 Old 02-21-2020, 11:56 AM
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Look at Rythmik for a pair of sealed subs. Tight bass and lots of tuning options. In a smaller space, sealed is a good choice, as ported can sometimes become boomy.
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post #8 of 18 Old 02-21-2020, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Dual subs would even out response throughout the room and give you a 6db so definitely a good choice.
Good to hear! I know many prefer the PB 2000 but I'm worried it will just be a bit too "boomy" in our relatively small cubic space. I'm thinking dual subs give us the added db without adding too much rattle to the room.

Any thoughts about paradigm monitor (series 7) sub 12? Close to the sb 2000 you reckon?

Cheers
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post #9 of 18 Old 02-21-2020, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Look at Rythmik for a pair of sealed subs. Tight bass and lots of tuning options. In a smaller space, sealed is a good choice, as ported can sometimes become boomy.
I keep hearing that name mentioned! Will definitely check them out. Any particular model you would recommend?
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post #10 of 18 Old 02-21-2020, 02:34 PM
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I keep hearing that name mentioned! Will definitely check them out. Any particular model you would recommend?
L12 is the starting point. There are other, more expensive options, which you may or may not need, depending on your usage.
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post #11 of 18 Old 02-21-2020, 04:16 PM
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I keep hearing that name mentioned! Will definitely check them out. Any particular model you would recommend?
I'd get the LV12-F, it's front ported and tuneable, and the DC Servo technology should be a nice treat.
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post #12 of 18 Old 02-21-2020, 06:05 PM
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Yes! That's our thinking too. We actually listened to the Prestige and the Premiers side by side and preferred the Premiers - weird eh? They just sounded like there was more separation of instruments and clarity to us. The lower price tag didn't hurt either ;-)
Nothing wrong with that! It's gotta be what sounds best to you! Less expensive, bonus!

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We really can't tell how much our enjoyment of the sound is going to hinge on the quality of the surrounds and in-ceiling speakers. It's just sound effects, more or less, right? Maybe multi-channel music is where differences in quality start to really show? I'm tempted to go super low budget here, but I don't want to create a weak point in the sound envelopment we are trying to create.
It is more effect and ambience, true - but depending on the content - the supporting speakers can be quite active, and would benefit from having the same sound signature. The majority of folks, if not all of them, that have gone from unmatched to matched systems have always proclaimed an improvement. And yes - I do agree it becomes more critical with music, but that is just me with my opinion - others will say it matters across the board. How about the Monitor SE Atom as surrounds? Not super low budget, but not a wallet-buster either, and should blend nicely with the Premiers. Does your local dealer have them? If so, give them a listen.

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One salesman suggested Paradigm H65-R for the ceiling and Paradigm Surround 1 for the surrounds. Any experience with those?
If you have to physically close to the surrounds, you could consider the Surround 1, otherwise I'd opt for the Atom - the pair price is less expensive than the single price for the Surround 1, and I personally think it'll be a better performer in general.

And I'm not saying the ceiling speakers are not important, but if I had to rank them, I'd put them at the bottom of importance list.

One word of caution - you do have low ceilings - lower than what is recommended for Atmos use of in-ceiling speakers! I'll be the last person to say it won't work, but do give it some consideration and do learn as much as you can about Atmos implementation:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...me-theater.pdf

Every space is different, every listener is different, and I don't like to discourage - and I have NOT done this myself in a low ceiling (mine is a typical 8 foot) - so I'm hoping some low-ceiling folks can chime in here about their experiences and provide you some better recommendations than I can. But weigh out the desire to push for an extensive system that might be just an O.K. performer, vs. a more conservative system that can deliver impressively. A really well-planned and implemented 5.1 system can blow your mind!

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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If Atmos speakers are going to be placed in a 6.5 ft ceiling, you will have very little play in speaker positioning, and even then, the coverage area will be miniscule. You'd be better off with on-ceiling speakers (or on-wall at the ceiling junction). Use small speakers like Minx Min 12, Boston Acoustics Soundware, Gallo A'diva, or similar. This will allow you to position the speakers horizontally, increasing their coverage area exponentially.
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post #14 of 18 Old 02-27-2020, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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If Atmos speakers are going to be placed in a 6.5 ft ceiling, you will have very little play in speaker positioning, and even then, the coverage area will be miniscule. You'd be better off with on-ceiling speakers (or on-wall at the ceiling junction). Use small speakers like Minx Min 12, Boston Acoustics Soundware, Gallo A'diva, or similar. This will allow you to position the speakers horizontally, increasing their coverage area exponentially.
This is interesting - do you think this would give us better sound than if we opted for in-ceiling ceiling speakers with aim-able tweeters like Golden Ear invisa or angled types like SVS Prime Elevations?.

The Paradigm in-ceilings (H-65A) also come in a "30 degree angled guided soundfield" but I'll confess, I don't know what this means
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post #15 of 18 Old 02-27-2020, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Nothing wrong with that! It's gotta be what sounds best to you! Less expensive, bonus!



It is more effect and ambience, true - but depending on the content - the supporting speakers can be quite active, and would benefit from having the same sound signature. The majority of folks, if not all of them, that have gone from unmatched to matched systems have always proclaimed an improvement. And yes - I do agree it becomes more critical with music, but that is just me with my opinion - others will say it matters across the board. How about the Monitor SE Atom as surrounds? Not super low budget, but not a wallet-buster either, and should blend nicely with the Premiers. Does your local dealer have them? If so, give them a listen.



If you have to physically close to the surrounds, you could consider the Surround 1, otherwise I'd opt for the Atom - the pair price is less expensive than the single price for the Surround 1, and I personally think it'll be a better performer in general.
Just read a review of the Monitor SE Atoms - colour me impressed!

https://www.soundstageaccess.com/ind...m-loudspeakers

I'm still on the fence about monopole vs bipole for the side and rear surrounds. The sides will be more or less at ear level and 90 degrees to give decent separation from the rears (between 2 to 4.5 feet from listeners on the couch). Rears probably about 2-3 feet away. I'm worried the monopoles will be too localized to create the "immersion" we're looking for in 7.1 audio tracks (probably the majority of our movies) while the surround 1's may create better envelopment and easier placement? But, I think the monopole speakers may sound better and possibly be better for ATMOS?

My dealer can probably get me comparable deals for both the monitor SE Atoms and the Surround 1's. Might even be able to do a good deal for Surround 3's.

I'm dying from analysis paralysis here!
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post #16 of 18 Old 02-27-2020, 01:20 PM
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This is interesting - do you think this would give us better sound than if we opted for in-ceiling ceiling speakers with aim-able tweeters like Golden Ear invisa or angled types like SVS Prime Elevations?.

The Paradigm in-ceilings (H-65A) also come in a "30 degree angled guided soundfield" but I'll confess, I don't know what this means
I just tackled this topic here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post59295238

He has 9' ceilings and you have 6.5' ceilings, so you can basically halve all the numbers calculated for his room.

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post #17 of 18 Old 02-27-2020, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I just tackled this topic here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post59295238

He has 9' ceilings and you have 6.5' ceilings, so you can basically halve all the numbers calculated for his room.
Awesome - I'll dive in!
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post #18 of 18 Old 02-28-2020, 07:35 AM
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I'm still on the fence about monopole vs bipole for the side and rear surrounds. The sides will be more or less at ear level and 90 degrees to give decent separation from the rears (between 2 to 4.5 feet from listeners on the couch). Rears probably about 2-3 feet away. I'm worried the monopoles will be too localized to create the "immersion" we're looking for in 7.1 audio tracks (probably the majority of our movies) while the surround 1's may create better envelopment and easier placement? But, I think the monopole speakers may sound better and possibly be better for ATMOS?
Yeah, that is close. At 2 feet, you will be able to localize those speakers. You'd probably be fine with the rears, I'd be more concerned with the sides. Monopoles ideally placed seem to be the preference, but Dolby indicates that bipoles are acceptable, just not dipoles. There are a lot of folks on the forum here that do use bipoles in Atmos systems and they are just fine. The bipole setup I heard at my local dealer was great - fully immersive and convincing in the Atmos capacity. Of course, all spaces and systems differ, so YMMV!

To combat the localization, you can always experiment with placement of the monopoles a bit, and your receiver will do what it can to compensate for the distance, but you can always reduce the levels even further to minimize the effect of being so close, but you'll probably not eliminate it entirely. I have the same issue with right side surround and right-most listener. Why I always sit in the middle position.....

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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