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post #1 of 19 Old 02-21-2020, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Next HT upgrade?

This system exists in basement with a projector and 120-inch screen.

Denon x3300w receiver

F: 2x KEF Q100

Center: 1x Athena AS-C1

Surround: 2x Athena AS-B1

Atmos: 2x Insignia bookshelf (can't remember model) -- installed in ceiling facing downwards

Subwoofer -- 1x SVS Sb12NSD

My ideas for next upgrade:

1) Add another SB12NSD
2) Replace SB12NSD with a ported sub like PC/PB 2000 or Monolith
3) Replace KEF Q100 with floorstanders, rotate KEF to rear, rotate Athena to ceiling
4) Replace Center Channel with... something..

The space is rather big, it's a roughly 25ftx14 room with lowish ceilings, concrete floor with tile on top, rug on top of that. Open on one side to another large space so the effective room dimensions for the sub are even larger. Would love to have a bit more punch in midbass, would love to have more consistent FR across seating positions, would love to tame the slightly harsh sound of the athenas (EQ notwithstanding) ... would be cool to have better extension too. I'd love for the system to be perfect basically.

Budget is 500-1000 for the next move.

Thoughts?
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post #2 of 19 Old 02-21-2020, 02:09 PM
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1) Add another SB12NSD and get a couple of nice towers such as the Chane A5.5 or some Canton Chrono SL-590.2's and comes with free Chrono SL 555.2 center.

https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...h/1.html#!more
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post #3 of 19 Old 02-21-2020, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrofir View Post

My ideas for next upgrade:

1) Add another SB12NSD

4) Replace Center Channel with... something..

Budget is 500-1000 for the next move.

Thoughts?
Add another SN12NSD.... I believe Amazon has it for $399.99

Replace center with Kef Q600C....A4L...$449.99

The Q100’s are good speakers. Maybe in the future, move them to surround duty and get a pair of Kef floor-standing.

Then you will have all Kef.
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post #4 of 19 Old 02-21-2020, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrofir View Post
This system exists in basement with a projector and 120-inch screen.

Denon x3300w receiver

F: 2x KEF Q100

Center: 1x Athena AS-C1

Surround: 2x Athena AS-B1

Atmos: 2x Insignia bookshelf (can't remember model) -- installed in ceiling facing downwards

Subwoofer -- 1x SVS Sb12NSD

My ideas for next upgrade:

1) Add another SB12NSD
2) Replace SB12NSD with a ported sub like PC/PB 2000 or Monolith
3) Replace KEF Q100 with floorstanders, rotate KEF to rear, rotate Athena to ceiling
4) Replace Center Channel with... something..

The space is rather big, it's a roughly 25ftx14 room with lowish ceilings, concrete floor with tile on top, rug on top of that. Open on one side to another large space so the effective room dimensions for the sub are even larger. Would love to have a bit more punch in midbass, would love to have more consistent FR across seating positions, would love to tame the slightly harsh sound of the athenas (EQ notwithstanding) ... would be cool to have better extension too. I'd love for the system to be perfect basically.

Budget is 500-1000 for the next move.
If you bought the SB12 from SVS, they should allow you to send it back on their dime and credit its value towards an upgraded sub...yes a bigger more powerful PORTED sub would be handy in that big open space. If you can't trade in the SB12, I'd move it to nearfield position and spend $500 on a PB12 from Amazon, so you'd be running dual subs while making the most of the SB12's meager output.

If you sit at a typical 8-12ft from the screen, you can get the Emotiva C1 on sale for $180 shipped as allegedly "factory renewed"---or its monstrous bigger brother the C2 for $400.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #5 of 19 Old 02-21-2020, 05:41 PM
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In strong agreement with Zorba about the SB12....its the lowest output sub ever tested on Data-Bass(or pretty close). Absolutely trade it in for a ported sub with SVS if you are able to, or sell it and get an even better ported sub from Hsu, Rythmik, or PSA.
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post #6 of 19 Old 02-21-2020, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
In strong agreement with Zorba about the SB12....its the lowest output sub ever tested on Data-Bass(or pretty close). Absolutely trade it in for a ported sub with SVS if you are able to, or sell it and get an even better ported sub from Hsu, Rythmik, or PSA.


Yeah this makes sense -- The sub sounds amazing in a bedroom but it's just not quite enough to bring that grin we're all shooting for in the HT application... unfortunately i used amazon to purchase so i can't flip it easily but i could try selling it locally -- if i can get 300 back and put that towards a PB 2000 (or equivalent monolith or HSU, etc) I'll only be down 400 and have some room to still maybe try those towers+center mentioned above...

thanks for all the feedback!
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post #7 of 19 Old 02-21-2020, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
If you bought the SB12 from SVS, they should allow you to send it back on their dime and credit its value towards an upgraded sub...yes a bigger more powerful PORTED sub would be handy in that big open space. If you can't trade in the SB12, I'd move it to nearfield position and spend $500 on a PB12 from Amazon, so you'd be running dual subs while making the most of the SB12's meager output.

If you sit at a typical 8-12ft from the screen, you can get the Emotiva C1 on sale for $180 shipped as allegedly "factory renewed"---or its monstrous bigger brother the C2 for $400.

I considered doing this but is combing a ported and a sealed sub asking for trouble? I feel like i could run into problems but ive never done it before so maybe I'm overstating... certainly keeping the sb12 and adding another sub is tempting.
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post #8 of 19 Old 02-21-2020, 08:55 PM
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make the svs nearfield and build 1 21 inch devastator or full marty or get the kit plus flat pack from gsg plus 1 nx6000dsp. you won't need another subwoofer for life not unless you go crazy like most diyers
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post #9 of 19 Old 02-21-2020, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrofir View Post
I considered doing this but is combing a ported and a sealed sub asking for trouble? I feel like i could run into problems but ive never done it before so maybe I'm overstating... certainly keeping the sb12 and adding another sub is tempting.
Well, ideally you would have dual PB12, but I'd take a PB12 + SB12 nearfield over dual SB12 or single SB12 for your room and usage.

Are you able to take advantage of SVS's upgrade/return policy?

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #10 of 19 Old 02-22-2020, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrofir View Post
This system exists in basement with a projector and 120-inch screen.

Denon x3300w receiver

F: 2x KEF Q100

Center: 1x Athena AS-C1

Surround: 2x Athena AS-B1

Atmos: 2x Insignia bookshelf (can't remember model) -- installed in ceiling facing downwards

Subwoofer -- 1x SVS Sb12NSD

My ideas for next upgrade:

1) Add another SB12NSD
2) Replace SB12NSD with a ported sub like PC/PB 2000 or Monolith
3) Replace KEF Q100 with floorstanders, rotate KEF to rear, rotate Athena to ceiling
4) Replace Center Channel with... something..

The space is rather big, it's a roughly 25ftx14 room with lowish ceilings, concrete floor with tile on top, rug on top of that. Open on one side to another large space so the effective room dimensions for the sub are even larger. Would love to have a bit more punch in midbass, would love to have more consistent FR across seating positions, would love to tame the slightly harsh sound of the athenas (EQ notwithstanding) ... would be cool to have better extension too. I'd love for the system to be perfect basically.

Budget is 500-1000 for the next move.

Thoughts?
If you can sell the SB-12 and add that to your $1000 budget, an HSU VTF-2 MK5 and Kef Q600 would be a good start unless you can budget in dual VTF-2's after selling the SB-12. On the next wave of upgrades, a 2nd sub or Kef towers.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk5.html
https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...r-black/1.html

Kef LS50,Q200C, Q100, Kef Kube 10B (X2) , Denon AVR-X3400H, Panasonic 50" Plasma, Xbox One.
Bedroom: Kef Q100 ,JBL Loft 20, SVS SB-2000, Denon AVR-S710W, PS3, 32" Insigna LED.
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post #11 of 19 Old 02-22-2020, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
If you can sell the SB-12 and add that to your $1000 budget, an HSU VTF-2 MK5 and Kef Q600 would be a good start unless you can budget in dual VTF-2's after selling the SB-12. On the next wave of upgrades, a 2nd sub or Kef towers.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk5.html
https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...r-black/1.html

Thanks to everyone for your feedback -- I really appreciate it!

I'm probably going to go with something very close to this solution. I wavered, am still wavering a little, on the sub... mostly between pc2000, vtf2mk5, and vtf 15h... the 15 is possibly off the table due to space limitations... I'd have to put it somewhere suboptimal whereas the pc2000 and vtfmk5 will fit where I'd like them to go and where I think subs sound best (in single arrangement)... in each case I'd be able to add a 2nd sub down the road. I'm favoring the HSU due to apparent performance edge in 40-100hz territory


anyway jusut rambling -- thanks again all!
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post #12 of 19 Old 02-22-2020, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mrofir View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
If you can sell the SB-12 and add that to your $1000 budget, an HSU VTF-2 MK5 and Kef Q600 would be a good start unless you can budget in dual VTF-2's after selling the SB-12. On the next wave of upgrades, a 2nd sub or Kef towers.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk5.html
https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...r-black/1.html

Thanks to everyone for your feedback -- I really appreciate it!

I'm probably going to go with something very close to this solution. I wavered, am still wavering a little, on the sub... mostly between pc2000, vtf2mk5, and vtf 15h... the 15 is possibly off the table due to space limitations... I'd have to put it somewhere suboptimal whereas the pc2000 and vtfmk5 will fit where I'd like them to go and where I think subs sound best (in single arrangement)... in each case I'd be able to add a 2nd sub down the road. I'm favoring the HSU due to apparent performance edge in 40-100hz territory


anyway jusut rambling -- thanks again all!
I have an Kef Q200c center channel on sale in the classified section
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post #13 of 19 Old 02-22-2020, 08:34 PM
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anyway just rambling
No problem! I like that cylindrical pc2000, the cylinder makes a strong enclosure and the look is offbeat. But I can't comment about the output versus others.
- I'd definitely up the center to a 3-way or coaxial to eliminate "Venetian blind" dispersion. The cheapest step would be to use another Q100 (which is fine on its side if need be, due to that coaxial design). The next step maybe yeah that Q600. And later upgrade the sides to Q600 vertically or a tower.
- I don't understand your comment about rotating Athena to the ceiling, those aren't ceiling speakers. Maybe as center surrounds, which my *guess* is has more impact on the sound than ceiling.
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post #14 of 19 Old 02-23-2020, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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No problem! I like that cylindrical pc2000, the cylinder makes a strong enclosure and the look is offbeat. But I can't comment about the output versus others.
- I'd definitely up the center to a 3-way or coaxial to eliminate "Venetian blind" dispersion. The cheapest step would be to use another Q100 (which is fine on its side if need be, due to that coaxial design). The next step maybe yeah that Q600. And later upgrade the sides to Q600 vertically or a tower.
- I don't understand your comment about rotating Athena to the ceiling, those aren't ceiling speakers. Maybe as center surrounds, which my *guess* is has more impact on the sound than ceiling.
I literally took my drop ceiling out and built a wooden enclosure into my joists where I just stick bookshelf speakers for my atmos. At first I had them down firing but it was too direct due to low ceiling.... so I flipped them and faced the woofer up -- it bounces immediately back down for a less direct but definitely noticeable vertical channel effect. Probably the last thing anyone would recommend but it sounds alright!
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post #15 of 19 Old 02-24-2020, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mrofir View Post
I literally took my drop ceiling out and built a wooden enclosure into my joists where I just stick bookshelf speakers for my atmos. At first I had them down firing but it was too direct due to low ceiling.... so I flipped them and faced the woofer up -- it bounces immediately back down for a less direct but definitely noticeable vertical channel effect. Probably the last thing anyone would recommend but it sounds alright!
Buy that AVS member's used KEF center.

I compared 2 SVS SB12 to one VTF2 MK5 using Audioholics' CEA 2010 bursts and the differences in maximums were not great enough IMHO to NOT get a second SB12 which adds about +6db at every frequency point and give greater spread of bass across a larger area than a single sub.

Audioholics CEA-2010 Burst Test Measurements
VTF2 MK5 SVS SB12 2xSB12 DIFFERENCE
16 97.5 87.7 93.7 -3.8
20 102.3 91.9 97.9 -4.4
25 103.9 96.3 102.3 -1.6
31.5 107.4 101 107.0 -0.4
40 110.5 104.6 110.6 0.1
50 112.6 106.4 112.4 -0.2
63 113.4 107.6 113.6 0.2
80 113.4 108.2 114.2 0.8
100 112.9 108.5 114.5 1.6
125 112.5 108.5 114.5 2.0

Here's just the difference column as is easier to read the way my worksheet formats on AVS.

At 25hz and above you are really losing very little, it's mostly below that the difference lies which may not even be noticed as 20hz and below is less content in all but the most extreme movies with massive LFE.

16 -3.8
20 -4.4
25 -1.6
31.5 -0.4
40 0.1
50 -0.2
63 0.2
80 0.8
100 1.6
125 2.0

Geoff A. J., California

Last edited by gajCA; 02-24-2020 at 10:45 AM.
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post #16 of 19 Old 02-24-2020, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Buy that AVS member's used KEF center.

I compared 2 SVS SB12 to one VTF2 MK5 using Audioholics' CEA 2010 bursts and the differences in maximums were not great enough IMHO to NOT get a second SB12 which adds about +6db at every frequency point and give greater spread of bass across a larger area than a single sub.

Audioholics CEA-2010 Burst Test Measurements
VTF2 MK5 SVS SB12 2xSB12 DIFFERENCE
16 97.5 87.7 93.7 -3.8
20 102.3 91.9 97.9 -4.4
25 103.9 96.3 102.3 -1.6
31.5 107.4 101 107.0 -0.4
40 110.5 104.6 110.6 0.1
50 112.6 106.4 112.4 -0.2
63 113.4 107.6 113.6 0.2
80 113.4 108.2 114.2 0.8
100 112.9 108.5 114.5 1.6
125 112.5 108.5 114.5 2.0

Here's just the difference column as is easier to read the way my worksheet formats on AVS.

At 25hz and above you are really losing very little, it's mostly below that the difference lies which may not even be noticed as 20hz and below is less content in all but the most extreme movies with massive LFE.

16 -3.8
20 -4.4
25 -1.6
31.5 -0.4
40 0.1
50 -0.2
63 0.2
80 0.8
100 1.6
125 2.0

Man -- this is exactly why I come here. Thanks for this super valuable info!

It does make my decision more difficult however.... Adding a 2nd SB12 would be a limiting factor in some ways, as I'd have two subs to sell down the road if I (inevitably?) get that itch again. Replacing an sb12 with the Hsu would allow me a more open upgrade path, and of course going for a 15 would be even more "open" in terms of overkill possibility later on.

otoh if I could get a sb12 direct from SVS with the bill of rights and everything.... I'd have very little to lose. They're currently out but I'm patient enough to maybe sit on this decision for a month or two.

I like how small and relatively "attractive" the SB12 is compared to its ported alternatives.. It would certainly look nicer on either side of my screen than those behemoths. I definitely enjoy the idea of getting huge sound out of small/hidden boxes. But if the 2x SB12 fails to pressurize my space, I fear I'll be back at the drawing board in a year's time. Given the low [email protected] around 7 ft, the dual SBs might be sufficient.


Regardless of my course of action I'm grateful for the fantastic info. Thanks to all!
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post #17 of 19 Old 02-24-2020, 03:04 PM
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Man -- this is exactly why I come here. Thanks for this super valuable info!

It does make my decision more difficult however.... Adding a 2nd SB12 would be a limiting factor in some ways, as I'd have two subs to sell down the road if I (inevitably?) get that itch again. Replacing an sb12 with the Hsu would allow me a more open upgrade path, and of course going for a 15 would be even more "open" in terms of overkill possibility later on.

otoh if I could get a sb12 direct from SVS with the bill of rights and everything.... I'd have very little to lose. They're currently out but I'm patient enough to maybe sit on this decision for a month or two.

I like how small and relatively "attractive" the SB12 is compared to its ported alternatives.. It would certainly look nicer on either side of my screen than those behemoths. I definitely enjoy the idea of getting huge sound out of small/hidden boxes. But if the 2x SB12 fails to pressurize my space, I fear I'll be back at the drawing board in a year's time. Given the low [email protected] around 7 ft, the dual SBs might be sufficient.


Regardless of my course of action I'm grateful for the fantastic info. Thanks to all!
No worries.

I'm a big sealed sub fan myself but when my sealed DD15 fails again I'm going to get it repaired, and give it to a family member, and then get dual sealed Rhythmik 12" subs.

My 18" cube 15" 1250 watt servo sealed sub is too darned big for my tastes, (I've owned sealed servo subs since before the AVR was invented), and dual 12s would be more than enough for my 18x15 space with a doorway opening into an even larger room at the right rear. There's not even in door to seal off that doorway and, for me, I get plenty of impact.

But for some AVS members if the windows rattle and crap doesn't fall off the wall then it's a "fail." \\
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post #18 of 19 Old 03-08-2020, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Welp, just thought I'd come back and update everyone. I swear I listened to you guys but ultimately I ended up going in a 3rd direction -- just bought a pair of jbl studio 580s on sale for 300 each. Figured I could set crossover to like 60 ish and they should help out significantly with midbass response and distribution throughout the room. I wasn't craving the sub 40 range as much so I think/hope that this will be satisfying and I'll kick the can on an inevitable sub upgrade for a bit. Ultimately I was swayed by the sale price vs the relatively static subwoofer market, and I also really love my lsr305s and have seen it mentioned that the 580s remind a bit of those despite not using identical waveguide...

Once I receive the towers I'll be moving the KEFs either to surround duty, or I will take one KEF and assign it to the center replacing my athena center, and sell the other kef. Or if there is a reasonable way to use both KEFs as a center channel I could do that but preliminary research into that idea suggests it's problematic.

I've only recently been in a position to own floorstanding speakers so I'm excited what these will bring to the table. I hope you guys don't think I'm a moron for going this route!
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post #19 of 19 Old 03-08-2020, 08:17 PM
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Welp, just thought I'd come back and update everyone. I swear I listened to you guys but ultimately I ended up going in a 3rd direction -- just bought a pair of jbl studio 580s on sale for 300 each.
No, $600 for a pair of those is a killer deal...I'd be sorely tempted myself if I were in your shoes! A KEF Q100 as the center should work very well, I'd think.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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