$2k to spend on speakers, sub and receiver - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Sweeney View Post
Thanks, really appreciate the time taken to provide someone you don't know all of this info. This is why these forums are world renowned!
So this poster from your quoted post is recommending a subwoofer from Rhythmik and PSB speakers. Might wanna listen up. He is right on both counts. Speakers are really best picked by listening.

One thing-- you are looking at Chane speakers and have a recommendation for PSB speakers. Caution - dome tweeters and ribbon/flat tweeters are two different animals.

Flat/ribbon tweeters tend certainly to detail and brightness. They may also sound a bit un-natural and shrill. Opinions vary. PSB speakers are ahead of the game for their price point.

Also be sure whatever you order that you can return after listening if you can't listen to them in advance. Get a Chane, PSB, and emotiva pair all in front of you( if you really are convinced that these options are what you want potentially) and take a listen. They will be VERY different. Keep the ones you like and return the others. Can't recommend a non-demoed speaker pair for anyone that can't be returned. Gotta demo the sound.

BTW-- NIOSH has a free SPL meter app for cell phones-- so you can compare any speaker pair at the same DB level. Very important. I like Crutchfield as well as a source of excellent support, return policy, and generally high quality products.
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post #32 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Sweeney View Post
I’m debating between the Emotiva T Zero floorstanding + C1 for $650 vs. Chane A5.5 + Chane A2.4 bundle for $1,137.

Thoughts? Difference in quality worth $500? How good are those Emotivas? Forget my overall budgetary constraints for this question. I’ve got some wiggle room.
Chanes would have an advantage if you are a volume freak but wish to avoid adding an external amp. And if you prefer a more conventional look.

Emotivas have the advantage of having 3 way centers; I've had both the A2.4 and the C1 and found them to be very close---the A2.4 sounds "bigger" in terms of throwing a bigger soundstage more readily, but the C1 sounded more "solid" or "grounded" and "3 dimensional" somehow (can't pin down the exact words), perhaps due to the 3 way design...if I were choosing between them today I would narrowly pick the C1, but that's just me. However, I can only imagine that the C2, if you have the cabinet space for it, would be a wider margin since it's got bigger woofers and dual rear ports so you'd likely get more dynamics and scale (and more mid-bass) than the C1 with its more compact sealed cabinet.

So, if it were me and if HT was my main usage, I'd get the C2 with T Zeros ($800) or T1 ($1K).

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #33 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 10:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rysa4 View Post
So this poster from your quoted post is recommending a subwoofer from Rhythmik and PSB speakers. Might wanna listen up. He is right on both counts. Speakers are really best picked by listening.

One thing-- you are looking at Chane speakers and have a recommendation for PSB speakers. Caution - dome tweeters and ribbon/flat tweeters are two different animals.

Flat/ribbon tweeters tend certainly to detail and brightness. They may also sound a bit un-natural and shrill. Opinions vary. PSB speakers are ahead of the game for their price point.

Also be sure whatever you order that you can return after listening if you can't listen to them in advance. Get a Chane, PSB, and emotiva pair all in front of you( if you really are convinced that these options are what you want potentially) and take a listen. They will be VERY different. Keep the ones you like and return the others. Can't recommend a non-demoed speaker pair for anyone that can't be returned. Gotta demo the sound.

BTW-- NIOSH has a free SPL meter app for cell phones-- so you can compare any speaker pair at the same DB level. Very important. I like Crutchfield as well as a source of excellent support, return policy, and generally high quality products.
I’ve been leaning towards tower speakers. What do you think about PSB Alpha T20?
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post #34 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Chanes would have an advantage if you are a volume freak but wish to avoid adding an external amp. And if you prefer a more conventional look.

Emotivas have the advantage of having 3 way centers; I've had both the A2.4 and the C1 and found them to be very close---the A2.4 sounds "bigger" in terms of throwing a bigger soundstage more readily, but the C1 sounded more "solid" or "grounded" and "3 dimensional" somehow (can't pin down the exact words), perhaps due to the 3 way design...if I were choosing between them today I would narrowly pick the C1, but that's just me. However, I can only imagine that the C2, if you have the cabinet space for it, would be a wider margin since it's got bigger woofers and dual rear ports so you'd likely get more dynamics and scale (and more mid-bass) than the C1 with its more compact sealed cabinet.

So, if it were me and if HT was my main usage, I'd get the C2 with T Zeros ($800) or T1 ($1K).
Thanks. Any strong opinions on T Zero vs T1?
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post #35 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 10:41 PM
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I’ve been leaning towards tower speakers. What do you think about PSB Alpha T20?

I have never demoed that pair. I do listen to PSB Alphas every day in my bedroom system however, and will tonight as well. I am one of those guys that has pairs of speakers in all kinds of closets and stuff. The more time goes on the more I appreciate my aging PSB Alphas.

But let's get to your question; PSB Alpha T20. So if you are thinking about floorstanders and no sub for HT - I might go for a sub that can go lower than 36 +/- 3 db.( and demo PSB bookshelves plus a sub) I do like the dual 5 1/4 woofer with dome tweeter set up in general however, which is what the T20 does have. I have that set up in my favorite floorstander pair in my main 2 channel listening system. ( different brand/wiring/crossovers/cabinets).

The PSB polypropylene cone ( in my opinion which will not be shared by many) is a good choice. Far better in achieving Pistonic motion, than say, a paper cone system. The point here is to avoid distortion based on cone motion that gets out of sync due to flexing and bending out of phase with an audio signal. Again, many folks will say that what I just said is hogwash. But I have been a musician , studio and performing, for a very long time. So I at least know what I am shooting for when I listen to a set of speakers for my ears, and know which brands have impressed me over the years, and which brands maybe not so much. Forgetting brands, I boil it down as to why based on the speaker construction etc itself--not just the brand.


Well, probably more than you bargained for..bottom line...listen to em and be able to return. Almost all passive speakers have a colored sound that makes them all sound a bit unique as a brand overall. What one person likes another will dislike. The goal is to keep speakers that you like. But fell fine with returning what doesn't impress you. You will know the ones for you when you hear them. That's how it works.

I'd be curious what you pick finally. Some good info in this thread, so good topic starter.
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post #36 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, there's a bit of a pickle right now with the virus and California companies for subwoofers like HSU, Monolith and RSL as they are all shut down.

Do you want this now during the virus, (believe me, it really is nice to have a nice 5.1 setup during these times), or are you willing to wait up to two months?

If it must be now the best sub out there is from Texas and their LV12F is $599 shipped.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/

A GREAT sub mind you, but a bit more money than the California options and far better than the SVS PB1000.
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So what if I waited two months - something better than the Rythmik at this price point?
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post #37 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I have never demoed that pair. I do listen to PSB Alphas every day in my bedroom system however, and will tonight as well. I am one of those guys that has pairs of speakers in all kinds of closets and stuff. The more time goes on the more I appreciate my aging PSB Alphas.

But let's get to your question; PSB Alpha T20. So if you are thinking about floorstanders and no sub for HT - I might go for a sub that can go lower than 36 +/- 3 db.( and demo PSB bookshelves plus a sub) I do like the dual 5 1/4 woofer with dome tweeter set up in general however, which is what the T20 does have. I have that set up in my favorite floorstander pair in my main 2 channel listening system. ( different brand/wiring/crossovers/cabinets).

The PSB polypropylene cone ( in my opinion which will not be shared by many) is a good choice. Far better in achieving Pistonic motion, than say, a paper cone system. The point here is to avoid distortion based on cone motion that gets out of sync due to flexing and bending out of phase with an audio signal. Again, many folks will say that what I just said is hogwash. But I have been a musician , studio and performing, for a very long time. So I at least know what I am shooting for when I listen to a set of speakers for my ears, and know which brands have impressed me over the years, and which brands maybe not so much. Forgetting brands, I boil it down as to why based on the speaker construction etc itself--not just the brand.


Well, probably more than you bargained for..bottom line...listen to em and be able to return. Almost all passive speakers have a colored sound that makes them all sound a bit unique as a brand overall. What one person likes another will dislike. The goal is to keep speakers that you like. But fell fine with returning what doesn't impress you. You will know the ones for you when you hear them. That's how it works.

I'd be curious what you pick finally. Some good info in this thread, so good topic starter.
Thanks. Still targeting a sub to go with floorstanding LR. Any faves in $600 range?
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post #38 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 11:01 PM
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thanks. Still targeting a sub to go with floorstanding lr. Any faves in $600 range?
HSU VTF2 MK5 or VTF3 MK5 HP if you can push your budget by $200.

Rythmik LV12F or L12
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post #39 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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hsu vtf2 mk5.
Thanks - got that one on my short list plus Monolith 10 THX and Rythmik LV12F.
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post #40 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 11:06 PM
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Thanks. Still targeting a sub to go with floorstanding LR. Any faves in $600 range?
Yes. Rhythmik and HSU at their respective largest single cone/driver that fits in your budget. Then you can buy another one to have a pair later if you want to boost your SPL in your open listening space. But other folks will prefer monolith/SVS and maybe a couple of budget sub brands that punch above their weight class ( I think BIC has a good one, but the exact model number escapes me). Ported subs may make the best sense for you as opposed to sealed subs.

Curious as to why the interest in floorstanders--are you combining 2 channel listening with HT in the same system? If yes, then you are on a good track in my opinion. If not, then setting the crossover to the sub at 80 hz renders floorstanders as not advantageous over same brand bookshelves.
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Yes. Rhythmik and HSU at their respective largest single cone/driver that fits in your budget. Then you can buy another one to have a pair later if you want to boost your SPL in your open listening space. But other folks will prefer monolith/SVS and maybe a couple of budget sub brands that punch above their weight class ( I think BIC has a good one, but the exact model number escapes me). Ported subs may make the best sense for you as opposed to sealed subs.

Curious as to why the interest in floorstanders--are you combining 2 channel listening with HT in the same system? If yes, then you are on a good track in my opinion. If not, then setting the crossover to the sub at 80 hz renders floorstanders as not advantageous over same brand bookshelves.
Frankly just the aesthetics...always liked the form factor. And not looking to mount, not sold on stands. Very scientific, I know.
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post #42 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 11:23 PM
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Frankly just the aesthetics...always liked the form factor. And not looking to mount, not sold on stands. Very scientific, I know.
WELL--FAIR ENOUGH. Good choice of towers then.
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post #43 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 11:27 PM
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WELL--FAIR ENOUGH. Good choice of towers then.
Boston acoustics a250 floorstanders might do ya. Save money, get the aesthetics. Will not be as good a speaker as the PSB towers you are looking at though.
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I'm looking to build a home theatre as well and am surprised to see why the receiver is being downplayed to spend less on. The way I see it, I would spend more on the receiver so it can accommodate the growth of your home theatre system and thus, I would spend more on one with higher number of channels for future expansion.
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post #45 of 264 Old 04-10-2020, 11:57 PM
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I'm looking to build a home theatre as well and am surprised to see why the receiver is being downplayed to spend less on. The way I see it, I would spend more on the receiver so it can accommodate the growth of your home theatre system and thus, I would spend more on one with higher number of channels for future expansion.
Because I think in terms of improvements in the sound, it does far less than spending the money on decent speakers - you can get very good room correction software in Audyssey XT32 without spending thousands of dollars.
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post #46 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 05:32 AM
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One thing-- you are looking at Chane speakers and have a recommendation for PSB speakers. Caution - dome tweeters and ribbon/flat tweeters are two different animals.

Flat/ribbon tweeters tend certainly to detail and brightness. They may also sound a bit un-natural and shrill. Opinions vary. PSB speakers are ahead of the game for their price point.

That’s a big generalization about planar/ribbon tweeters. There’s a reason the RAAL ribbon is so popular, and it’s for the exact opposite reasons you list.

All three brands offer great sound, but I just wanted to clarify this point so as not to mislead people.
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So what if I waited two months - something better than the Rythmik at this price point?
It is all opinion mostly but many on here would say there isn't a "better" sub than Rythmik at the price point. It really depends on what you want. Rythmik subs combine the high level of output with super low distortion and advanced options on the amp. There is a Rythmik sub for everyone.

One thing to keep in mind when comparing subs is that it isn't all about wattage because Rythmik uses a servo setup which is a bit more efficient. They get similar output with lesser levels compared to most.

One thing that should probably be your #1 parameter when determining sub options is very how much space you have. You might think anything will work but a lot of times, when you realize how far the subs will stick out, it might become a BIG issue.

If you want to dabble in subs before really committing, get an SVS sub or two in the level you are looking at. You can demo them in home and return for a full refund. You don't even have to pay any shipping.

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post #48 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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All,

Any thoughts on the Emotiva Airmotiv S12 12" sub or the E2 surrounds?

Last edited by Jeff Sweeney; 04-11-2020 at 07:59 AM.
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post #49 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 08:47 AM
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So what if I waited two months - something better than the Rythmik at this price point?
Not really, the Emotiva S12 doesn't compare IMHO, that sub is over priced.

The HSU and Monolith would be less money but the Monolith doesn't offer the eq options the other two do and some on AVS have run into quality control/customer service with Monolith though for many they offer great price/value.

Would you be making a "mistake" by getting the Rhythmik now vs waiting for a HSU?

No, not at all as both are well respected here on AVS.

The only reason I have towers in my main room is because the cats used to knock over the stand mount speakers velcrod to admittedly lightweight stands.

But some prefer the form factor.

As to Emotiva towers vs Chane stand mounts or PSB tower or PSB stand mounts to be honest, if you were in my family, I'd tell you to start with the easy to return PSB stand mounts.

If they just don't cut it for your ears then you will have learned something to communicate to others but all your choices are good ones.

If you DO like the sound then you can decide whether to return them and get the tower version as the return on the bookshelves would essentially be free as that vendor takes the return shipping cost away from the rewards points that you get when you return one set and get another from them.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #50 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 08:49 AM
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That’s a big generalization about planar/ribbon tweeters. There’s a reason the RAAL ribbon is so popular, and it’s for the exact opposite reasons you list.

All three brands offer great sound, but I just wanted to clarify this point so as not to mislead people.

Good point. I did mention opinions vary and listening plus being able to return is critical. But I'd like to move into the ribbon tweeter thing a bit more. For sure, the Raal amorphous steel core ribbon tweeters are faster and more dynamic than their counterparts and do VERY well compared to a majority of dome tweeters. When carefully paired and designed with the right crossovers and drivers -- you can get real magic. Verity, Lohergin, Saratos -- just a sampling of some great speakers that use ribbon tweeters -- but all of them are hugely expensive.

When you are in the price point range we are talking about in this thread, ribbon tweeters in a speaker as a whole are truly challenged. The problem is that the Ribbons are highly directional, fragile, and aren't well integrated with cones as far as a truly desirable integrated signature sound. Its almost like listening to two speakers at once. The dome tweeters are FAR better at flexibility for off axis listening and imaging. Ribbons lauded for detail and speed are really just interpretations of an increase in distortion. They have restricted vertical dispersion as well. Its just physics.

My last concern about ribbons is their relative fragility. Beyond aluminum tears, ribbon tweeters can be damaged from a littany of electronics gear issues. Voltage, " pops, current leakage. And then you have to replace the tweeter. ( Capacitor be damned!) Some speaker companies ( and I am not referring to any speaker line mentioned in this thread) won't replace damaged ribbon tweeters despite their warranty claims. Too frequent and too expensive to do.

Two last points - If someone has high end hearing loss - a speaker with a ribbon tweeter makes a lot of sense. For me, I have what is called " hyperacusis" in one ear -- so I tend to not find ribbon tweeters very enjoyable to listen to. Just too " bright" and un-naturally so compared to live sound.

Lastly, this is just a discussion about tweeters; magnaplanar speakers as a whole is a totally different topic.
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post #51 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Abbas Jaffar Ali View Post
I'm looking to build a home theatre as well and am surprised to see why the receiver is being downplayed to spend less on. The way I see it, I would spend more on the receiver so it can accommodate the growth of your home theatre system and thus, I would spend more on one with higher number of channels for future expansion.
With no budget constraints I would agree.

If your goal is 5.1.4 that makes sense.

But for those on a budget who want something for 5.1 now and maybe in 10 years will go for 5.1.4 it makes far more sense if on a budget to go for a 5.2 capable receiver for as little as $228 for a 90 watt Sony than to buy a $678 5.2.4 capable Onkyo.

In 10 years that Onkyo would be as "obsolete" as my current 7.1 receiver which is 9 year olds.

So why don't I just get rid of that old receiver as I have zero budget constraints?

It does a great job, I have had 5.1 since the mid 80s and it satisfies my needs perfectly and I don't sideline a perfectly good receiver that works great with my 1080P Plasma that more than likely I'll repair rather than replace.

I tend to keep things until they fail and even then I repair them and give them to family if I don't put them back into service myself.

But when my old Denon dies I think I will indeed try 5.2.4 with in ceiling atmos and give my 15" sealed servo sub to my niece and get two Rhythmik 12" subs to replace it.

But that could be 5 years from now.
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post #52 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 08:59 AM
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All,

Any thoughts on the Emotiva Airmotiv S12 12" sub or the E2 surrounds?
$700 for a sub that has a 3db roll off of 24Hz is not very good. You'd do better with the Rythmik LV12-F for $560, the Hsu VTF-2 for $600, or the SVS PB2000 for the same $700.

Emotiva used to sell a "Bas-X" line of subs that had far far better bang for the buck than this S series.

The E2 should be good if you want dipole surrounds; if doing monopoles you can get Dayton B452-AIR or B652-AIR with a similar AMT tweeter for a whole lot less.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)

Last edited by Zorba922; 04-11-2020 at 09:02 AM.
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post #53 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Sweeney View Post
All,

Any thoughts on the Emotiva Airmotiv S12 12" sub

OK for music but not the extension most people look for with movies.

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post #54 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post
That’s a big generalization about planar/ribbon tweeters. There’s a reason the RAAL ribbon is so popular, and it’s for the exact opposite reasons you list.

All three brands offer great sound, but I just wanted to clarify this point so as not to mislead people.
Agree 100%.

After having had Emotivas (AMT tweeter), Chane (planar), and BMRs (RAAL), for music listening I would never go back to a dome tweeter unless it was from a company specifically known for "warm" sound such as Wharfedale.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #55 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 09:05 AM
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With no budget constraints I would agree.

If your goal is 5.1.4 that makes sense.

But for those on a budget who want something for 5.1 now and maybe in 10 years will go for 5.1.4 it makes far more sense if on a budget to go for a 5.2 capable receiver for as little as $228 for a 90 watt Sony than to buy a $678 5.2.4 capable Onkyo.

In 10 years that Onkyo would be as "obsolete" as my current 7.1 receiver which is 9 year olds.

So why don't I just get rid of that old receiver as I have zero budget constraints?

It does a great job, I have had 5.1 since the mid 80s and it satisfies my needs perfectly and I don't sideline a perfectly good receiver that works great with my 1080P Plasma that more than likely I'll repair rather than replace.

I tend to keep things until they fail and even then I repair them and give them to family if I don't put them back into service myself.

But when my old Denon dies I think I will indeed try 5.2.4 with in ceiling atmos and give my 15" sealed servo sub to my niece and get two Rhythmik 12" subs to replace it.

But that could be 5 years from now.
Same here. Still use an old Denon receiver from 18 years ago for 5.1 ( use two subs though, same channel). Less software to go south and various ports that don't work or have compatibiltiy issues as well. I like the new stuff too...but seems to have a higher " fiddle factor."
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post #56 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Rysa4 View Post
Same here. Still use an old Denon receiver from 18 years ago for 5.1 ( use two subs though, same channel). Less software to go south and various ports that don't work or have compatibiltiy issues as well. I like the new stuff too...but seems to have a higher " fiddle factor."
5.1 and 5.2 can be VERY effective.

I've seen Atmos movies in the theater and, indeed, it was jaw dropping for a movie like Dunkirk.

But at home it is very infrequent that I watch such an enveloping movie sound wise where Atmos would shine so I "soldier on" with plain old 5.1 and remain quite satisfied to do so until my Denon AVR 1912 fails.

If my niece from Texas show up here in a car next year I promised to give her my DD15 sub and then I'll get two Rhtymik 12" sealed subs to replace it while still using the old AVR.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #57 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Sweeney View Post
All,

Any thoughts on the Emotiva Airmotiv S12 12" sub or the E2 surrounds?
Not a bad sub, but Rhythmik and HSU offer much better value/performance and tuning options as previously mentioned. Rhythmik is preferred for music while HSU is preferred for HT. That said, both subs will handle both music and HT quite well.

The E2's are quite expensive and unnecessary. You can use what you have for now and get a pair of B1's when they come back in stock. If you need surrounds to tide you over, used speakers for $25-30 from Craigslist or your local pawn shop could be an option.
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post #58 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Agree 100%.

After having had Emotivas (AMT tweeter), Chane (planar), and BMRs (RAAL), for music listening I would never go back to a dome tweeter unless it was from a company specifically known for "warm" sound such as Wharfedale.
C'mon now.... If you are listening to a pair of Dynaudio Evidence Temptation speakers for music, you would never go back to dome tweeters?

AMT tweeters aren't ribbon tweeters, and Balanced Mode Radiator technologies are designed to get around and overcome the exact limitations that I mention that Ribbon tweeters do have... very difficult integration only achieved at great expense. BMR speaker components I find most interesting. I like it.

We are just having a conversation here. All good.
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post #59 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Rysa4 View Post
C'mon now.... If you are listening to a pair of Dynaudio Evidence Temptation speakers for music, you would never go back to dome tweeters?
well, I have always heard good things about Dyns being "warm," but have never had the chance to hear them in person...so this might be one of the exceptions.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #60 of 264 Old 04-11-2020, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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So far I've purchased a Rythmik LVF12 sub and Denon X2500 AVR.

Still processing the rest, but these two felt solid.
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