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post #1 of 46 Old 04-11-2020, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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JTR Noesis for just music

I have read a lot about the JTR Noesis line and how well it performs. I even read a post from 2018 where they said it outperformed a Wilson X2 and Grande utopia in music performance! Quite unreal if true.


For anyone with any noesis speakers how do you like them for music listening and if you did compare them, how do they compare to traditional audiophile or music focused speakers?


The 210, 212 and 215 RT look interesting.

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post #2 of 46 Old 04-11-2020, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
I have read a lot about the JTR Noesis line and how well it performs. I even read a post from 2018 where they said it outperformed a Wilson X2 and Grande utopia in music performance! Quite unreal if true.


For anyone with any noesis speakers how do you like them for music listening and if you did compare them, how do they compare to traditional audiophile or music focused speakers?


The 210, 212 and 215 RT look interesting.
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post #3 of 46 Old 04-11-2020, 09:55 PM
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It’s all opinions.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #4 of 46 Old 04-12-2020, 09:20 AM
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Russdawg1 is profoundly right, if you like them for music then they are good for music. I haven't heard the Seatons...but they are highly acclaimed HT speakers. It's never simple or easy, but I always recommend listening for yourself which means finding someone who has them and will let you listen to them, finding and travelling to a showroom or the manufacturer, or even better getting some in your listening space for the definitive audition with your equipment and environment. The characteristics most audiophiles look for from a good music speaker are flat response, detail, attack, soundstage accuracy, depth and width. As a function of it's design I personally would NOT expect a two way designed for HT volume, impact and room coverage to provide me the nuance and detail I seek from a music speaker. The best recommendation I can make is to listen to them for yourself.
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post #5 of 46 Old 04-12-2020, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Russdawg1 is profoundly right, if you like them for music then they are good for music. I haven't heard the Seatons...but they are highly acclaimed HT speakers. It's never simple or easy, but I always recommend listening for yourself which means finding someone who has them and will let you listen to them, finding and travelling to a showroom or the manufacturer, or even better getting some in your listening space for the definitive audition with your equipment and environment. The characteristics most audiophiles look for from a good music speaker are flat response, detail, attack, soundstage accuracy, depth and width. As a function of it's design I personally would NOT expect a two way designed for HT volume, impact and room coverage to provide me the nuance and detail I seek from a music speaker. The best recommendation I can make is to listen to them for yourself.

He doesn't have dealers though. I suppose I could order though as he has a return policy. But thought I would just get a sense from others who own them or heard them.

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hypothetical...but if one values a deep soundstage, thus needing to place speakers out in room, away from walls...you gonna need a huge freaking room

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post #7 of 46 Old 04-12-2020, 01:30 PM
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I have a pair of 212RTs. When I first heard them, they blew me away with their clarity, it's like the sound emanating from them was precisely etched, etched as sharp as the finest crystal aspires for, and remained so to well beyond painful listening levels. I also have a pair of GoldenEar Triton OneRs and it kinda hurts me to have to say but they sound veiled in comparison, they can't match the 212s, even at subdued levels. I personally don't get the music/HT thing, accurate is accurate. I think a lot of the dynamics you need in HT come from the sub anyway. That said, the 212 and JTRs in general, are so efficient and handle so much power, 95-98dB, 2KW, for the 'R' reference series, they're really hard to beat in the dynamics dept. The 215RT goes deeper than most subs. Some opinions are more generally accepted than others. If you read through the JTR thread, you'll find an awful lot of folks saying how blown away they were and how they're the best they ever heard and that's from many who have a lot more experience with high-end speakers than I have. You can't go wrong them for music or HT, in my opinion.
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post #8 of 46 Old 04-12-2020, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
He doesn't have dealers though. I suppose I could order though as he has a return policy. But thought I would just get a sense from others who own them or heard them.
Exactly why I said "it's never simple or easy"...to get, find, or audition speakers any of us are interested in. It's a safe bet folks who bought them are going to say they like them, and most others already know they were not designed for or acclaimed for their reproduction of music. Hence my response and emphasis to let your ears decide even if it takes a trip to Union City Wisconsin.

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post #9 of 46 Old 04-12-2020, 02:07 PM
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From what I have read and watched, the JTR Noesis 215RT ( a 3-way speaker) is a TRUE full-range speaker. The woofers are flat to the mid-teen Hz.
If that doesn't define a full-range audiophile speaker, then I don't know what does...
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post #10 of 46 Old 04-12-2020, 03:34 PM
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Full range typically implies that they dig deep enough that some folks may not want/need a subwoofer... nothing more, nothing less. Reading this thread and the JTR thread I'm now curious to see response charts. JTR only cites response within + or - 3db of advertised frequency response. Typically manufacturers "smooth" the measurements and cite the lowest variance they can get away with...I'm not making a negative allegation, it's just typical and without measurements to back-up how "accurate" they are it is safe to assume that those spec's are smoothed and it could be reasonably expected to see 6 or 7db dips, peaks or swings in actual measured response over the claimed frequency response. In comparison there are quite a few speakers that have much more uniform response and proudly disclose their measurements including off axis horizontal and vertical, plus transient response, decay, and voltage graphs. Measurements don't tell the whole story or predict who will like how a speaker sounds, but knowing that humans typically detect frequency variations as little as 1/10 db and that there are a myriad of speakers with much flatter frequency response the question becomes how critical is one's speaker choice for listening to music? I would also be curious to hear how they scale knowing that they have such huge capacity for playing loudly simply because I want uniform/consistent response and frequency balance at every volume from a "music speaker". I'm not biased against JTR. I might really like them if I had a huge theater where I could move them away from the walls to get accurate imaging and wanted super loud capability, but likewise I would never go to a horn loaded coax mid/hf CD expecting the nuance, imaging, or room response I want for listening to music and I don't have to listen to them to fully understand why I wouldn't like them for listening to music.

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post #11 of 46 Old 04-12-2020, 03:51 PM
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I have no skin in the game, but JTR seems to have been above board with their specs. The woofers in the 215s were sent to data-bass.com for 3rd-party measurements.



OT, but a major irritant that I see far too often. An anonymous poster comes on here (they can have over 10k posts, but are still anonymous) and start to trash an ID company. They use all the Cult of Tool nonsense (spinorama measurements are a TOOL and nothing else) to claim that a speaker couldn't possibly be capable of what is claimed, even when independent testing has been proven. This has happened with ID companies that use RAAL tweeters, planar tweeters, etc and now it's about co-axial compression drivers. One has to wander the motivation of such posters.
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There's an extensive test of the 215RT's bass capabilities here.
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post #13 of 46 Old 04-12-2020, 04:29 PM
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I've never heard JTR, but have had clients who have had them, replaced them, etc. Personally, I cannot say a bad or good word about them as I've never heard them.

Expanding on your point, I find more recommendations and/or condemnations on here for things people have never heard or had significant experience with than I do anything else. So much theory crafting and assuming and it really just leads to useless, blind hypothesis. I'm blown away as to what drives people to even post on some of the stuff they have no actual clue about. I don't use a lot of ID stuff, so I don't bad mouth or praise it past what I do know.

Even though I'm a Harman dealer, I fully recognize that there are some awesome speaker manufacturers out there who don't do things the same way. I appreciate the diverse engineering methods and material utilization in the hobby. Without it, things would be pretty boring!
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post #14 of 46 Old 04-12-2020, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
I have no skin in the game, but JTR seems to have been above board with their specs. The woofers in the 215s were sent to data-bass.com for 3rd-party measurements.



OT, but a major irritant that I see far too often. An anonymous poster comes on here (they can have over 10k posts, but are still anonymous) and start to trash an ID company. They use all the Cult of Tool nonsense (spinorama measurements are a TOOL and nothing else) to claim that a speaker couldn't possibly be capable of what is claimed, even when independent testing has been proven. This has happened with ID companies that use RAAL tweeters, planar tweeters, etc and now it's about co-axial compression drivers. One has to wander the motivation of such posters.
There was no "trashing", take it at face value and as I emphasized multiple times listen for yourself. ID companies were not discussed, but now that you mention it I have speakers from two ID companies and just ordered some from a third and took the time and effort to audition each before I purchased. It's about individual preference, but it really does help knowing and understanding the spec's, what a speaker can do well and the characteristics one wants from a speaker. I know what I like and don't and why and shared it and I"m not a salesman claiming to know what someone else does or does not know. I'm sorry if that stepped on any toes but I call them like I see them. Peace out.

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I drove 12 hours to audition some over a weekend in Kansas City. Find someone that will let you play your music and just remember their room may be different that yours.
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Originally Posted by JonfromCB View Post
Russdawg1 is profoundly right, if you like them for music then they are good for music. I haven't heard the Seatons...but they are highly acclaimed HT speakers. It's never simple or easy, but I always recommend listening for yourself which means finding someone who has them and will let you listen to them, finding and travelling to a showroom or the manufacturer, or even better getting some in your listening space for the definitive audition with your equipment and environment. The characteristics most audiophiles look for from a good music speaker are flat response, detail, attack, soundstage accuracy, depth and width. As a function of it's design I personally would NOT expect a two way designed for HT volume, impact and room coverage to provide me the nuance and detail I seek from a music speaker. The best recommendation I can make is to listen to them for yourself.
Agree, but the JTR speakers are 3 way. Just a slight correction.
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post #17 of 46 Old 04-13-2020, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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It would be interesting if Jeff sent over some Noesis speakers to an audiophile focused review site for analysis. Might push his speakers more into the lime light of budget performers... for music as well as HT.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
I have read a lot about the JTR Noesis line and how well it performs. I even read a post from 2018 where they said it outperformed a Wilson X2 and Grande utopia in music performance! Quite unreal if true.


For anyone with any noesis speakers how do you like them for music listening and if you did compare them, how do they compare to traditional audiophile or music focused speakers?


The 210, 212 and 215 RT look interesting.
@muscles can chime in - he and I both have the 212RTs and they're incredible. He listens to music far more than I do, and he's incredibly happy. We both came from big ML ESLs - I have the 11a, he had 13a. So music always sounded great to us. I wanted to up my HT returns, so I went JTR. But I"m pleasantly surprised by the music sound. Accurate, detailed, precise, clear. All of it

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post #19 of 46 Old 04-13-2020, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
It would be interesting if Jeff sent over some Noesis speakers to an audiophile focused review site for analysis. Might push his speakers more into the lime light of budget performers... for music as well as HT.
ASR has the best measurement tools now, as far as I know.
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Thumbs up

Never heard this brand. The specs seem to point out that they are highly efficient. Has anyone hooked them up w/tube gear??
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post #21 of 46 Old 05-20-2020, 04:42 AM
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I have the smallest speakers JTR makes for LCR in my living room, the 110HT. I think they sound great with music! Great dynamics, loud, crystal clear but I am no audiophile.

Prior to that I had Salk SongTowers. Unfortunately I wasn't able to A/B comparison before I let the Salk's go to my friend so I can't honestly comment on the differences I hear. But, I have absolutely no regrets!

Review of the JTR 212RT with measurements here: https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/jt...urements.6779/
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post #22 of 46 Old 05-20-2020, 08:16 AM
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I own the 212HTRs and here is my experience:
They are a little bit tricky to setup to sound the best but once done, you will be very impressed. They have fairly narrow dispersion (60x60) so there will be little reflections. That results in very clear and precise sound.. It also results in a sound stage that is for lack of a better word is 3 dimensional / holographic.. This is as opposed to ambient sound which some find more desirable over clarity. For multichannel (11+ speakers) and using upmixers, I found that the clarity may be more important since the ambience is usually present in the sound tracks or is added by the upmixers.

The best way that I found to set them up is to do the extreme toe in method so they are crossed in front of the main listener. That resulted in a very wide sound stage and the image remained consistent in all of my 3 seats. If you read the review linked, you will see that the speaker is designed to have a flat on axis response but the off axis high frequencies are a little high. By adding a 2-3 db filter to tame the high frequencies down and with the extreme toe-in method, I was able to get an almost perfectly flat frequency response at the mlp and frequency responses that are almost as good at the side seats. Without the toe-in and the 2-3 db shelf filter, you will get a very narrow sweet spot and sound that I have seen some describe as "metallic" / "bright".

So if you are willing to spend some time tweaking them and you like very clear / dry / precise sound (as opposed to ambient), you will like those speakers.

Link to the 212 review with measurments.
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post #23 of 46 Old 05-20-2020, 10:44 AM
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I owned the original JTR 212's and they were fantastic speakers. I spent many, many hours listening to music on them so yeah, they are great music speakers. Jeff is an awesome designer and stands by his speakers with outstanding support.
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post #24 of 46 Old 05-20-2020, 04:48 PM
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hypothetical...but if one values a deep soundstage, thus needing to place speakers out in room, away from walls...you gonna need a huge freaking room
They're directionality is very well controlled; no you won't.

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post #25 of 46 Old 05-20-2020, 04:56 PM
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In comparison there are quite a few speakers that have much more uniform response and proudly disclose their measurements including off axis horizontal and vertical, plus transient response, decay, and voltage graphs.
Post them then and show us how "bad" the JTR are.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JonfromCB View Post
Measurements don't tell the whole story or predict who will like how a speaker sounds,
They do if you know what to measure and how to interpret the measurements.


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Originally Posted by JonfromCB View Post
but knowing that humans typically detect frequency variations as little as 1/10 db
This is complete and utter rubbish under normal program signal conditions. There was a lot of testing done on this and some humans can hear 1/10dB differences in level, but it's only with a pure tone and fast switched. Wideband, no one will be able to detect anything like that.

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post #26 of 46 Old 05-20-2020, 05:31 PM
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They're directionality is very well controlled; no you won't.

depth must be meaning different things then...

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post #27 of 46 Old 05-20-2020, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
It would be interesting if Jeff sent over some Noesis speakers to an audiophile focused review site for analysis. Might push his speakers
Might push his speakers into the audiophool swamp and kill their/his reputation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by richard12511 View Post
ASR has the best measurement tools now, as far as I know.
Yep, but for speakers you don't need anything like that resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
depth must be meaning different things then...
Then please feel free to explain why, in acoustic terms, you'd need a huge room for them.

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post #28 of 46 Old 05-21-2020, 07:28 AM
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Post them then and show us how "bad" the JTR are.



They do if you know what to measure and how to interpret the measurements.


This is complete and utter rubbish under normal program signal conditions. There was a lot of testing done on this and some humans can hear 1/10dB differences in level, but it's only with a pure tone and fast switched. Wideband, no one will be able to detect anything like that.
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post #29 of 46 Old 05-21-2020, 02:19 PM
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PM sent
No PM in my inbox. I don't want one anyway; just answer in thread.

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post #30 of 46 Old 05-21-2020, 03:16 PM
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Post them then and show us how "bad" the JTR are.



They do if you know what to measure and how to interpret the measurements.


This is complete and utter rubbish under normal program signal conditions. There was a lot of testing done on this and some humans can hear 1/10dB differences in level, but it's only with a pure tone and fast switched. Wideband, no one will be able to detect anything like that.
I've measured the JTR 212's outside on a spinner and they are very well behaved speakers, well within their specs. My measurements were not comprehensive, but their horizontal on and off axis FR was excellent as I recall.
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