Upgrade options over the Andrew Jones C22 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 32Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 39 Old 05-12-2020, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Upgrade options over the Andrew Jones C22

Hi everyone,

I've extensively read and browsed through the various threads complaining about the AJ C22's "muddy" dialogue and unfortunately, I'm one of them. I've had the C22 with AJ FS52 towers for years and have kind of just put up with the lacking center for a while, being unhappy with how it sounds.

I've played with placement, crossover, and have jacked up the decibels but I feel it's time to give up on it and opt for a new center (I was particularly frustrated when watching Dunkirk the other night and had issues discerning dialogue).

My budget is $200 or less (maybe can stretch to $250?), and obviously I don't mind the mismatch with the fronts for the time being. Seating area is about 8-9 ft away. Receiver is an Onkyo TX-NR686.

One big note is the size of the speaker. My entertainment console isn't the largest, and the C22 just about maxes out the size I'd like to go with (18.1 x 7.1 x 8.4"). I've seen suggestions like the NHT SuperCenter (thanks Zorba!) but it seems like availability at the moment is lacking. That one looks pretty ideal.

How much of an upgrade would it be over the C22 in terms of dialogue clarity? I'm also open to any/all suggestions given the aforementioned size and budget.

I've also read threads like this one and this one discussing using a NHT SuperOne 2.1 on its side as a center. I would not be opposed to this either since it's more available.

Let me know your thoughts, thanks!

Last edited by wquach; 05-12-2020 at 12:24 PM.
wquach is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 39 Old 05-12-2020, 01:15 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 15,761
Mentioned: 298 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9000 Post(s)
Liked: 6937
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post
My entertainment console isn't the largest, and the C22 just about maxes out the size I'd like to go with (18.1 x 7.1 x 8.4"). I've seen suggestions like the NHT SuperCenter (thanks Zorba!) but it seems like availability at the moment is lacking. That one looks pretty ideal.

How much of an upgrade would it be over the C22 in terms of dialogue clarity? I'm also open to any/all suggestions given the aforementioned size and budget.
The SuperOne has inexplicably jumped up in price on Amazon...so you'd be better off with the NHT C1 if you want to try that route, $128 each.

However, with a 7-8" height maximum your best bet would be a Chane A2.4 ... yes it will cost about $300 shipped but that $100 over your budget is worth every penny---day and night improvement over the C22! The center is the backbone of any HT setup, so THIS is where spending a little bit more is 100% worth it.
wquach, head_unit and AlexLac like this.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
post #3 of 39 Old 05-12-2020, 01:17 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 15,761
Mentioned: 298 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9000 Post(s)
Liked: 6937
I guess the Ascend 200SE would be worth a shot if you absolutely can't go over $200.
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...00/htm200.html

Or, the RSL CG23 which does have free return shipping.
https://rslspeakers.com/products/new...enter-channel/
wquach likes this.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 39 Old 05-12-2020, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
The SuperOne has inexplicably jumped up in price on Amazon...so you'd be better off with the NHT C1 if you want to try that route, $128 each.

However, with a 7-8" height maximum your best bet would be a Chane A2.4 ... yes it will cost about $300 shipped but that $100 over your budget is worth every penny---day and night improvement over the C22! The center is the backbone of any HT setup, so THIS is where spending a little bit more is 100% worth it.
Wow, just the guy I was hoping for a response!! Big fan.

I'll look into the C1, Chane A2.4, and your other suggestions, thanks! I noticed the SuperOne from Amazon Warehouse to be $76 used...should I just give that a shot at that price? If there's something wrong I could return it.
wquach is offline  
post #5 of 39 Old 05-12-2020, 01:21 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 15,761
Mentioned: 298 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9000 Post(s)
Liked: 6937
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post
I noticed the SuperOne from Amazon Warehouse to be $76 used...should I just give that a shot at that price? If there's something wrong I could return it.
Sure, why not? Amazon is usually pretty good about returns...just claim it was "defective" when you go through the return label generation process. I'll be curious to see how you like it.
wquach likes this.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
post #6 of 39 Old 05-12-2020, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Sure, why not? Amazon is usually pretty good about returns...just claim it was "defective" when you go through the return label generation process. I'll be curious to see how you like it.
Will report back when I test it out. Thanks again Zorba!!
Zorba922 likes this.
wquach is offline  
post #7 of 39 Old 05-12-2020, 03:14 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post
Hi everyone,

I've extensively read and browsed through the various threads complaining about the AJ C22's "muddy" dialogue and unfortunately, I'm one of them. I've had the C22 with AJ FS52 towers for years and have kind of just put up with the lacking center for a while, being unhappy with how it sounds.

I've played with placement, crossover, and have jacked up the decibels but I feel it's time to give up on it and opt for a new center (I was particularly frustrated when watching Dunkirk the other night and had issues discerning dialogue).

My budget is $200 or less (maybe can stretch to $250?), and obviously I don't mind the mismatch with the fronts for the time being. Seating area is about 8-9 ft away. Receiver is an Onkyo TX-NR686.

One big note is the size of the speaker. My entertainment console isn't the largest, and the C22 just about maxes out the size I'd like to go with (18.1 x 7.1 x 8.4"). I've seen suggestions like the NHT SuperCenter (thanks Zorba!) but it seems like availability at the moment is lacking. That one looks pretty ideal.

How much of an upgrade would it be over the C22 in terms of dialogue clarity? I'm also open to any/all suggestions given the aforementioned size and budget.

I've also read threads like this one and this one discussing using a NHT SuperOne 2.1 on its side as a center. I would not be opposed to this either since it's more available.

Let me know your thoughts, thanks!
For what it's worth (maybe not too much, LOL), I have the full Pioneer AJ setup as well (FS52 fronts, BS22s all around (x6) and C22 center, along with 4 Atmos heights (the Pioneer add-on modules)). I replaced the C22 in my main HT with a Polk (CS20 I believe, it's upstairs at the moment) center (much larger physically so won't help you there) which was immensely better sound (they actually had them at a store where I could "A/B" many different centers in the same location, including the AJ CS22).

The Polk was on a huge sale, so although at some point I'll move on from the Pioneers, for $100 (I think, a normally $229 center if I recall) it gave my system new life (and saved my budget for a few more years of other things). It timbre matched VERY well with the Pioneers, but with much more dialog clarity, otherwise I don't even notice it at all as "distinct" in the mix, it blends across the front perfectly, just "better".

All that to say, maybe look at their new Signature Series center S35. Dimensionally, it should fit your needs, but if the sound quality is as good as I've heard and seen (all reviews I've seen have been very impressed given it's cost and odd configuration) and if it timbre-matches similarly to the Pioneers you have, it may meet all your checkboxes. (And may be able to find locally in case it doesn't work out and has to go back). Just another perspective, I have sadly NOT been able to A/B that yet in my setup. I have A/B'd the towers to the FS52s though, and obviously for much larger, more expensive, speakers, they sounded better (50s, not 60s which I've never seen in person). But probably saving my beans for a much larger jump sometime down the road.
wquach likes this.

Main theater: 14.5'x14.5': LG OLED65C7P; Denon AVR X6400; 11.1 setup with Atmos: Pioneer FS52 (LR), Polk CS20 (c), BS-22 (SR,SL,BR,BL), SP-T22A-LR (x4), SW8-MK2 subwoofer; Samsung UBD-8500 4k BluRay player; XBox One S, XBox 360, Wii, and lots of other odds and ends.
Home studio: 2x Harbinger APS15 speakers, Behringer 8x2 mixer, for various keyboards, guitars, and mic.
christexan is offline  
post #8 of 39 Old 05-12-2020, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by christexan View Post
For what it's worth (maybe not too much, LOL), I have the full Pioneer AJ setup as well (FS52 fronts, BS22s all around (x6) and C22 center, along with 4 Atmos heights (the Pioneer add-on modules)).
I have A/B'd the towers to the FS52s though, and obviously for much larger, more expensive, speakers, they sounded better (50s, not 60s which I've never seen in person). But probably saving my beans for a much larger jump sometime down the road.
I have the BS22s also! For my surrounds. I bought the whole AJ set back in 2014 from Amazon for my first non-HTIB surround set. The center was $50, towers were $65 each, and the pair of BS22s were just $65. Crazy sale and the reason why it's been hard to move on since they've been so bang-for-buck.

With that said, I'll take a look at the Polk you mentioned as well as the S35, and I'm very glad to hear the Polk's timbre matched well - it's a fear I had when exploring this speaker set mismatch.

I'm going to test drive the Superone given the low price, but if it doesn't match well with the FS52s I'm gonna check out yours and Zorba's suggestions

Last edited by wquach; 05-23-2020 at 01:30 PM.
wquach is offline  
post #9 of 39 Old 05-13-2020, 08:56 AM
Member
 
khcoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post
Wow, just the guy I was hoping for a response!! Big fan.

I'll look into the C1, Chane A2.4, and your other suggestions, thanks! I noticed the SuperOne from Amazon Warehouse to be $76 used...should I just give that a shot at that price? If there's something wrong I could return it.
I bought an Emotiva C1 to replace my C22 and it did not blend well with my BS22's (my fronts at the time) at all. Seemed to kind of overpower them as well. I ended up buying a set of B1's to replace the BS22's (moved the BS22's to surrounds and they sounded fine still) and now have completely gotten a full 5.x.2 emotiva set with T1's and A1's. If you're only looking to upgrade the center maybe stay away from the ribbon style tweeters otherwise you could end up wanting to replace everything.
wquach likes this.
khcoach is offline  
post #10 of 39 Old 05-13-2020, 10:06 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 15,761
Mentioned: 298 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9000 Post(s)
Liked: 6937
Quote:
Originally Posted by khcoach View Post
I bought an Emotiva C1 to replace my C22 and it did not blend well with my BS22's (my fronts at the time) at all.
Did you level-match the C1 to your BS22s? If yes and they still seemed to "overpower" then I would venture a guess that it was due to the C1's abundance of detail, and the BS22's notorious lack thereof.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
post #11 of 39 Old 05-22-2020, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Sure, why not? Amazon is usually pretty good about returns...just claim it was "defective" when you go through the return label generation process. I'll be curious to see how you like it.
The NHT SuperOne 2.1 arrived and I've got some news to report!

First off, I know AWD can be a crapshoot, but I lucked out because my "Acceptable" condition purchase arrived mint, "Like New," not a single fingerprint. YMMV.

It's laid on its side due to my vertical constraints. I read somewhere you/someone else mentioned about rotating the tweeter 90 degrees? How does one accomplish this and when to do this?

Cool thing about the NHT is that the logo is easily removable from the grill.

I tried to run A/B tests with a few dialogue scenes in Interstellar to listen for differences. Ran through the usual Onkyo mic calibration and it set the crossover for the SuperOne at 50 Hz rather than the usual 80 or so. Is that normal?

This was late at night so I initially (stupidly) was listening to the dialogue at -42 dB - at this volume they sounded pretty similar, and the C22 even sounded "fuller" which left me disappointed.

After cranking it up to -32 dB, the differences became more apparent - the C22 was louder at the same volume and created a wider soundstage (probably what gives it that "fuller" sound that I mentioned) but at the expense of the dialogue being less tight - words would roll off/echo more, McConaughey would sound even more gravelly. A boomier sound. I'm no audiophile, but I hope this makes sense/sounds like others' impressions. Or maybe I need to get my ears checked lol

I watched a few scenes where there was dialogue in the middle of other sounds occurring (Cornfield Chase, intro pilot flashback scene) and it was hard to tell if the dialogue shined more noticeably through in my limited testing without adequately turning up the volume.

Would love to hear suggestions on users' go-to clips for testing their center.

In terms of volume, is the C22 be easier to drive than the Superone? I consistently found myself raising the volume +5 dB on the SuperOne to match the kind of output coming from the C22. I settled with that additional (+5 dB) manual adjustment.

As is, I'm leaning towards keeping the SuperOne given that it's not only smaller than the Pioneer but also offers the tighter dialogue. I'm still even considering the other suggestions mentioned just to want to hear an even more noticeable jump up.

No issues with timbre matching with the FS22s - blended well enough for me. Also I did some tests with the orientation and I didn't notice any significant degradation to the sound when laid flat vs vertical - I probably preferred vertical but could just be placebo.

I also tried fiddling with the THX Loudness Plus, Late Night, and Center Spread options of my receiver - didn't notice any differences with them on or off. Wondering when these features kick in or make a noticeable difference. Should I just keep them off then?

Last edited by wquach; 05-24-2020 at 10:38 AM.
wquach is offline  
post #12 of 39 Old 05-22-2020, 12:38 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 15,761
Mentioned: 298 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9000 Post(s)
Liked: 6937
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post
As is, I'm leaning towards keeping the SuperOne given that it's not only smaller than the Pioneer but also offers the tighter dialogue. I'm still even considering the other suggestions mentioned just to want to hear an even more noticeable jump up.
The Pioneer AJs are all known for providing lots of mid-bass presence, so they can stand on their own without a sub, sort of. The trade-off is they are severely lacking in treble detail/dynamics, and the C22 is infamous for poor voice clarity.

Due to their sealed cabinet design, NONE of NHT's speakers sound great without a sub. And if you watch a lot of blockbuster action movies, a decent sub is the second most important component in any HT setup after the center.

However, at the moment Infinity is selling its $500 3-way RC-263 center for a gobsmacking $159...I would leap on that deal pronto if you have the space for it. Comes with free return shipping just in case.
wquach likes this.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
post #13 of 39 Old 05-22-2020, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
However, at the moment Infinity is selling its $500 3-way RC-263 center for a gobsmacking $159...I would leap on that deal pronto if you have the space for it. Comes with free return shipping just in case.
Woh, I think I'll pull the trigger on that!

*Update: arg, sold out

I see the RC252 at $135 still available. Worth it?

*Update 2: I bought the RC252 (the dimensions also work much more favorably for me than the 263).

Hoping this will be another leap up and won't have to deal with turning a monitor on its side.

Last edited by wquach; 05-23-2020 at 01:37 PM.
wquach is offline  
post #14 of 39 Old 05-22-2020, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
However, at the moment Infinity is selling its $500 3-way RC-263 center for a gobsmacking $159...I would leap on that deal pronto if you have the space for it. Comes with free return shipping just in case.
Similar to this thread, I also found the Pioneer Elite SP-EC73 for $149.

If between the RC252 (at $135) or the EC73 (at $149), which would you recommend?

Last edited by wquach; 05-22-2020 at 03:06 PM.
wquach is offline  
post #15 of 39 Old 05-22-2020, 03:32 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 15,761
Mentioned: 298 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9000 Post(s)
Liked: 6937
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post
Similar to this thread, I also found the Pioneer Elite SP-EC73 for $149.

If between the RC252 (at $135) or the EC73 (at $149), which would you recommend?
The RC252. Gives you dual woofers instead of one woofer and one passive radiator.
wquach and sigpig like this.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
post #16 of 39 Old 05-22-2020, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
The RC252. Gives you dual woofers instead of one woofer and one passive radiator.
Perfect. Thanks for everything Zorba!
sigpig likes this.
wquach is offline  
post #17 of 39 Old 05-22-2020, 03:45 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 15,761
Mentioned: 298 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9000 Post(s)
Liked: 6937
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post
Perfect. Thanks for everything Zorba!
You're welcome...am looking forward to hearing how you like the RC252 compared to the NHT.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
post #18 of 39 Old 05-23-2020, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Been learning more and more everyday from this forum as well as Googling articles, etc.

The RC252 is considered a 2.5 way center, but some of the other candidates I was looking at that were on sale (saw a used NHT Classic 2C for $130, Intimus 5C for $209) are proper 3 ways. Seems like 2.5 ways are less common than 3, and seems like 3s are more popularly preferred, owing to the dedicated driver separation.

From what I understand, they run into the issue of additional crossover if not well-implemented. And yes, being a 3 way doesn't automatically mean it'll sound better than a 2 or 2.5 way...and, in the end, regardless of design, it comes to what sounds good to the user's ears/room setup and fits their needs --

I'm not regretting my RC252 purchase because I haven't even received/listened to it yet, but the more research I do, the more I get overwhelmed by the plethora of options available, even under the $200 price range. We all want the best bang-for-buck performance. How does one reconcile and be at peace with their purchase?

I wish I could test drive them all or make more educated decisions without having to buy/return/jump on a sale.

Hope that makes sense, coming from someone who just started to dip their toes into HT audio.

Last edited by wquach; 05-23-2020 at 11:54 AM.
wquach is offline  
post #19 of 39 Old 05-23-2020, 12:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
the7mcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 775
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 542 Post(s)
Liked: 244
This whole thing will have you on a wild goose chase man.....

One thing I’ve learned from the wild goose chase is that The only way you’ll hear pretty drastically different sounds from speaker to speaker is if you jump from one design to another

And by that I mean if you’re going from speakers using soft dome tweeters to something like a Klipsch with their horn loaded tweeters or a Martin Logan with their folded Air motion tweeters... and then you have definitive tech that likes to include passive radiators in their speakers to help give the low end a bass boost etc

Also speaker sensitivity plays a role.... one speaker may sound louder than the other at the same volume depending on how drastically different their rated sensitivity might be

Other than that I’d say just choose something and be happy or else you’ll end up like me, I have speakers stashed away in my closet like they are shoes & clothes because I kept thinking well if I buy this one or that one maybe it’ll do this or that
wquach likes this.
the7mcs is offline  
post #20 of 39 Old 05-23-2020, 12:47 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New England
Posts: 11,391
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1358 Post(s)
Liked: 1542
Your room and placement can be the cause of bad dialogue as well.

Couple questions. Are you sitting directly in front of or on axis to the center channel? Or are you sitting off the side at all? You will find some center channels will have poor off axis response.

How far back are you sitting from the speaker?

Next if your ear height is above or below the tweeter on the center channel try angling the center speaker up or down slightly. Using something like a string and holding it from the tweeter to your ear height from your main seating position can help you with the angle.

Lastly the room plays a big role. If your room has lots of hard surface area and is very open it may be something to address with some room treatments. Things like curtains, pillows, throw rugs, etc an really help.
wquach and sigpig like this.
ack_bk is offline  
post #21 of 39 Old 05-23-2020, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by the7mcs View Post
This whole thing will have you on a wild goose chase man.....

One thing I’ve learned from the wild goose chase is that The only way you’ll hear pretty drastically different sounds from speaker to speaker is if you jump from one design to another

Also speaker sensitivity plays a role....

Other than that I’d say just choose something and be happy or else you’ll end up like me, I have speakers stashed away in my closet like they are shoes & clothes because I kept thinking well if I buy this one or that one maybe it’ll do this or that
Ahaha thank you for the advice! Sensitivity was the spec I was looking for - the C22's at 88 dB vs SuperOne at 86 dB - guess my ears didn't deceive me!

I'll research more about speaker design types for fun. I think as long as I don't lose sight of my main goal (to improve dialogue clarity within my budget/size constraints) I'll be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
Your room and placement can be the cause of bad dialogue as well.

Couple questions. Are you sitting directly in front of or on axis to the center channel? Or are you sitting off the side at all? You will find some center channels will have poor off axis response.

How far back are you sitting from the speaker?

Next if your ear height is above or below the tweeter on the center channel try angling the center speaker up or down slightly. Using something like a string and holding it from the tweeter to your ear height from your main seating position can help you with the angle.

Lastly the room plays a big role. If your room has lots of hard surface area and is very open it may be something to address with some room treatments. Things like curtains, pillows, throw rugs, etc an really help.
Great questions! I should've mentioned my room and seating characteristics in my OP but I was afraid it was already too verbose.

I'm sitting directly in front of the center channel. I'm about 8-9 feet from the center. Ear height is above the speaker since it's unfortunately positioned below my TV resting on a low console. I knew about how non-ideal this position would be beforehand but didn't try angling up the speaker (will do that tonight, thank you for that advice!).

I would say the biggest concern is your last question - very open living room layout (large enough to comfortably accommodate my 100" projector screen), high ceilings, wood floors, no curtains, not much furnishings. As is, I'll try to incorporate some curtains since that would also help with light control.
________________

On a sidenote, I just want to throw in that I've been a longtime lurker on this site (joined in 2010) but this has really been my first dive into interacting with the members here and audio setups in general and I gotta say, I'm very appreciative of everyone's help. I know there's a million new threads opened on the daily (where many can get lost) but to get even one or two responses to get started in the right direction really means a lot.

A bunch of time and hassle saved, and just in general information to learn, research, and explore to get further into this hobby.

Last edited by wquach; 05-23-2020 at 01:22 PM.
wquach is offline  
post #22 of 39 Old 05-23-2020, 01:35 PM
Advanced Member
 
the7mcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 775
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 542 Post(s)
Liked: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by the7mcs View Post
This whole thing will have you on a wild goose chase man.....

One thing I’️ve learned from the wild goose chase is that The only way you’️ll hear pretty drastically different sounds from speaker to speaker is if you jump from one design to another

Also speaker sensitivity plays a role....

Other than that I’️d say just choose something and be happy or else you’️ll end up like me, I have speakers stashed away in my closet like they are shoes & clothes because I kept thinking well if I buy this one or that one maybe it’️ll do this or that
Ahaha thank you for the advice! Sensitivity was the spec I was looking for - the C22's at 88 dB vs SuperOne at 86 dB - guess my ears didn't deceive me!

I'll research more about speaker design types for fun. I think as long as I don't lose sight of my main goal (to improve dialogue clarity within my budget/size constraints) I'll be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
Your room and placement can be the cause of bad dialogue as well.

Couple questions. Are you sitting directly in front of or on axis to the center channel? Or are you sitting off the side at all? You will find some center channels will have poor off axis response.

How far back are you sitting from the speaker?

Next if your ear height is above or below the tweeter on the center channel try angling the center speaker up or down slightly. Using something like a string and holding it from the tweeter to your ear height from your main seating position can help you with the angle.

Lastly the room plays a big role. If your room has lots of hard surface area and is very open it may be something to address with some room treatments. Things like curtains, pillows, throw rugs, etc an really help.
Great questions! I should've mentioned my room and seating characteristics in my OP but I was afraid it was already too verbose.

I'm sitting directly in front of the center channel. I'm about 8-9 feet from the center. Ear height is above the speaker since it's unfortunately positioned below my TV resting on a low console. I knew about how non-ideal this position would be beforehand but didn't try angling up the speaker (will do that tonight, thank you for that advice!).

I would say the biggest concern is your last question - very open living room layout (large enough to comfortably accommodate my 100" projector screen), high ceilings, wood floors, no curtains, not much furnishings. As is, I'll try to incorporate some curtains since that would also help with light control.
________________

On a sidenote, I just want to throw in that I've been a longtime lurker on this site (joined in 2010) but this has really been my first dive into interacting with the members here and audio setups in general and I gotta say, I'm very appreciative of everyone's help. I know there's a million new threads opened on the daily (where many can get lost) but to get even one or two responses to get started in the right direction really means a lot.

A bunch of time and hassle saved, and just in general information to learn, research, and explore to get further into this hobby.
When I had my center low inside my TV stand I had to come up with an ingenious DIY method to prop it and angle it up and this is what I used

https://www.amazon.com/Home-Premium-...NsaWNrPXRydWU=


I used two of them, one on each end of the speaker for proper support

There different angle ones so maybe if you decide to go that route check and see what proper angle would be for your application
wquach likes this.
the7mcs is offline  
post #23 of 39 Old 05-23-2020, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by the7mcs View Post
When I had my center low inside my TV stand I had to come up with an ingenious DIY method to prop it and angle it up and this is what I used
And here I was trying to scrounge around the apartment looking to stack a bunch of anti-skid pads to the front two corners lol

That's a more clever solution. I think that dark brown even matches my console's top.
wquach is offline  
post #24 of 39 Old 05-23-2020, 02:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New England
Posts: 11,391
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1358 Post(s)
Liked: 1542
Hey we’ve all been there. Try some of those things. One more thing to try is eliminating the center channel completely and just using your front left and right speakers angled slightly in to create a “phantom” center channel. You will need to go into your AVR and disable the center channel. In one of my rooms I have some dual Klipsch RPM-15 speakers and the phantom center works really well.
wquach likes this.
ack_bk is offline  
post #25 of 39 Old 05-23-2020, 02:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
pase22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Montreal,Canada
Posts: 8,122
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3802 Post(s)
Liked: 3266
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post
Ahaha thank you for the advice! Sensitivity was the spec I was looking for - the C22's at 88 dB vs SuperOne at 86 dB - guess my ears didn't deceive me!

I'll research more about speaker design types for fun. I think as long as I don't lose sight of my main goal (to improve dialogue clarity within my budget/size constraints) I'll be happy.



Great questions! I should've mentioned my room and seating characteristics in my OP but I was afraid it was already too verbose.

I'm sitting directly in front of the center channel. I'm about 8-9 feet from the center. Ear height is above the speaker since it's unfortunately positioned below my TV resting on a low console. I knew about how non-ideal this position would be beforehand but didn't try angling up the speaker (will do that tonight, thank you for that advice!).

I would say the biggest concern is your last question - very open living room layout (large enough to comfortably accommodate my 100" projector screen), high ceilings, wood floors, no curtains, not much furnishings. As is, I'll try to incorporate some curtains since that would also help with light control.
________________

On a sidenote, I just want to throw in that I've been a longtime lurker on this site (joined in 2010) but this has really been my first dive into interacting with the members here and audio setups in general and I gotta say, I'm very appreciative of everyone's help. I know there's a million new threads opened on the daily (where many can get lost) but to get even one or two responses to get started in the right direction really means a lot.

A bunch of time and hassle saved, and just in general information to learn, research, and explore to get further into this hobby.
As previously mentioned, the Super one is a sealed design. Frequency response doesn't extend as low so a higher crossover (100-120hz) should be set. You should also give your ears (break-in) a few days to adjust. If you want a fuller sound and better dynamics, consider the usual suspects (Chane A2.2, Ascend CBM 340SE & Emotiva C1) though the Infinity previously recommended is a steal at that price.

There are many knowledgeable and experienced members (past & present) who have really helped me a lot (and many other) over the years. You will get more honest advice here than many audio stores ( looking at you BB) that are looking out for their best interest, not yours.
wquach likes this.

Kef LS50,Q200C, Q100, Kef Kube 10B (X2) , Denon AVR-X3400H, Panasonic 50" Plasma, Xbox One.
Bedroom: Kef Q100 ,JBL Loft 20, SVS SB-2000, Denon AVR-S710W, PS3, 32" Insigna LED.
pase22 is offline  
post #26 of 39 Old 05-23-2020, 08:53 PM
Senior Member
 
Tuba4me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post

And here I was trying to scrounge around the apartment looking to stack a bunch of anti-skid pads to the front two corners lol

That's a more clever solution. I think that dark brown even matches my console's top.
Walmart sells these also, probably Home Depot or Lowe’s as well in case you want them quickly.

I was speaking with some folks recently that said Amazon was prioritizing “essential” items firstly and other things were being delayed.

Another option might be some Auralex MoPads as these would isolate the center from the stand as well as provide an angle if desired (https://auralex.com/mopad/). You can find them on eBay and music stores also (Guitar Center, Sam Ash, etc.)
wquach likes this.
Tuba4me is offline  
post #27 of 39 Old 05-24-2020, 04:52 AM
Advanced Member
 
Coercion Shaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 368 Post(s)
Liked: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by wquach View Post
Woh, I think I'll pull the trigger on that!

*Update: arg, sold out

I see the RC252 at $135 still available. Worth it?

*Update 2: I bought the RC252 (the dimensions also work much more favorably for me than the 263).

Hoping this will be another leap up and won't have to deal with turning a monitor on its side.
RC263 is back in stock. Order and cancel the RC252 if you want.
wquach and Zorba922 like this.
Coercion Shaman is offline  
post #28 of 39 Old 05-24-2020, 09:02 AM
Senior Member
 
pmanyon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 82
I had the previous iteration of the chane center and the pioneer elite center. Both of them are excellent centers and will be a satisfying upgrade over the pioneer center you have, which I have also heard. I think you can't go wrong with either. The difference I would say is that the chane is more dynamic and easier to drive, while the elite is more revealing. It is a 4 ohm speaker so if you play loud, you will want solid amplification. I was very happy with both though. I remember watching the ball dropping scenes in the beginning of Minority Report with the chane, it sounded like the ball was dropping in my room. Again, both are great speakers at a great price.
AlexLac and wquach like this.
pmanyon is offline  
post #29 of 39 Old 05-24-2020, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
Hey we’ve all been there. Try some of those things. One more thing to try is eliminating the center channel completely and just using your front left and right speakers angled slightly in to create a “phantom” center channel. You will need to go into your AVR and disable the center channel. In one of my rooms I have some dual Klipsch RPM-15 speakers and the phantom center works really well.
That's a good idea that I'll explore further - I did this (accidentally) the other day when I was playing a YouTube video while swapping the two centers; noticed that the dialogue was still playing as if coming from the center but in actuality was coming from the LR towers. Cool stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Frequency response doesn't extend as low so a higher crossover (100-120hz) should be set.

There are many knowledgeable and experienced members (past & present) who have really helped me a lot (and many other) over the years. You will get more honest advice here than many audio stores ( looking at you BB) that are looking out for their best interest, not yours.
Absolutely agree. Never have bothered with big chains/stores for advice for those reasons. I'll try setting the crossover higher. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuba4me View Post
Another option might be some Auralex MoPads as these would isolate the center from the stand as well as provide an angle if desired (https://auralex.com/mopad/).
The MoPads look quite nice, albeit too pricey for my tastes. I do like that you've exposed me now to the plethora of angled foam pads on Amazon! Seeing a lot of affordable $15 options - ultimately I'll probably go this route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coercion Shaman View Post
RC263 is back in stock. Order and cancel the RC252 if you want.
I checked an hour after you commented and was sold out yet again I decided to measure out the RC263 dimensions and as tempted as I would be even if it went back in stock, it for sure would be too tall for my projector screen and TV. Not to mention the missus would murder me for how it would look on our console I'll have to settle with the 252.
wquach is offline  
post #30 of 39 Old 05-24-2020, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
wquach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmanyon View Post
I had the previous iteration of the chane center and the pioneer elite center. Both of them are excellent centers and will be a satisfying upgrade over the pioneer center you have, which I have also heard. I think you can't go wrong with either. The difference I would say is that the chane is more dynamic and easier to drive, while the elite is more revealing. It is a 4 ohm speaker so if you play loud, you will want solid amplification. I was very happy with both though. I remember watching the ball dropping scenes in the beginning of Minority Report with the chane, it sounded like the ball was dropping in my room. Again, both are great speakers at a great price.
Very glad to hear these impressions. Wish there was a sale on the Chane - with current pricing with the Elite being nearly half the price, would you say the Chane is worth that difference? I also ended up going for the RC252 over the Elite after Zorba's point about the drivers and the fact that Harman offers free return shipping, which I'm not sure the Pioneer store does.
wquach is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off