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post #1 of 11 Old 05-14-2020, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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In wall surround help!

Home theater build is on the way, and looking for surround and rear surround in wall suggestions. Current speakers include polk monitor 60 L/R and C20 center, and polk owm3 pair. For Atmos I am using the owm3 and planning to get a second pair to have 4 Atmos speakers.

I am planning either 5.2.4 or 7.2.4, have 2 rows of seats so will be a surround for each row (aka 4 speakers for surround, and 2 more if I do rear surround). Room is 11’6” x 23’6”. Planning to have a false wall with primary tow 11’ to screen, so 12’ to speakers.

Since I’m considering getting 6 surrounds am not looking to go to crazy price wise (would be happy 150/speaker but can certainly go up if need be). I am looking for something in wall and neutral, so when I decide to upgrade front 3 they will still play nice. Considering auditioning SVS Ultra, ascend Sierra 2, maybe RBH to give a sense of where front 3 may be.

Not sure what to do for surrounds. Considered polk in wall but not sure they would be neutral to pair well when I upgrade. Something cheap like Monoprice alpha would be easy but I wonder if I may want to upgrade later (is a narrow room so only 6’ to MLP, and I have a svs pc2000 for bass). Is there anything else to consider? Axiom? HSU? Klipsch have sealed in wall like axiom I believe but with horn would/ sensitivity probably not pair so well...

Appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
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post #2 of 11 Old 05-14-2020, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jmanko View Post
Since I’m considering getting 6 surrounds am not looking to go to crazy price wise (would be happy 150/speaker but can certainly go up if need be). I am looking for something in wall and neutral, so when I decide to upgrade front 3 they will still play nice. Considering auditioning SVS Ultra, ascend Sierra 2, maybe RBH to give a sense of where front 3 may be.

Not sure what to do for surrounds. Considered polk in wall but not sure they would be neutral to pair well when I upgrade. Something cheap like Monoprice alpha would be easy but I wonder if I may want to upgrade later (is a narrow room so only 6’ to MLP, and I have a svs pc2000 for bass). Is there anything else to consider? Axiom? HSU? Klipsch have sealed in wall like axiom I believe but with horn would/ sensitivity probably not pair so well...

Appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

So, have a look at the Revel W263. Crutchfield lists them for $175.00 and they always show MSRP, so you could likely find 'em cheaper. When you say neutral, Revel is one that always comes to my mind. Anyway, a brand to explore!

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
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Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
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2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #3 of 11 Old 05-15-2020, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmanko View Post
Home theater build is on the way, and looking for surround and rear surround in wall suggestions. Current speakers include polk monitor 60 L/R and C20 center, and polk owm3 pair. For Atmos I am using the owm3 and planning to get a second pair to have 4 Atmos speakers.

I am planning either 5.2.4 or 7.2.4, have 2 rows of seats so will be a surround for each row (aka 4 speakers for surround, and 2 more if I do rear surround). Room is 11’6” x 23’6”. Planning to have a false wall with primary tow 11’ to screen, so 12’ to speakers.

Since I’m considering getting 6 surrounds am not looking to go to crazy price wise (would be happy 150/speaker but can certainly go up if need be). I am looking for something in wall and neutral, so when I decide to upgrade front 3 they will still play nice. Considering auditioning SVS Ultra, ascend Sierra 2, maybe RBH to give a sense of where front 3 may be.

Not sure what to do for surrounds. Considered polk in wall but not sure they would be neutral to pair well when I upgrade. Something cheap like Monoprice alpha would be easy but I wonder if I may want to upgrade later (is a narrow room so only 6’ to MLP, and I have a svs pc2000 for bass). Is there anything else to consider? Axiom? HSU? Klipsch have sealed in wall like axiom I believe but with horn would/ sensitivity probably not pair so well...

Appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
I am not aware Klipsch and Hsu have integrated back boxes like the axiom.

the Axiom M2 is the lowest cost models they have @ 548/pr . build quality and support are great.

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post #4 of 11 Old 05-15-2020, 10:12 AM
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I'd suggest that there's so many variables in play here (which is not a bad thing) that if you generally match the tweeter design (dome vs horn vs ribbon) and have a reasonable match in sensitivity (like +/- 2dB/watt), you'll be just fine no matter what you pick. A 7.2.4 system is obviously complex, and would make it incredibly difficult to evaluate the performance and tonality of any given subset of speakers within the entire system--except maybe the fronts.

The room itself (and therefore, placement) is usually the much bigger challenge, and the standard rhetorical questions apply: Are you going for a truly optimized setup for a certain seat or row of seats? Or generally good overall? Floor coverings, furniture placements and hard surfaces definitely affect things. Are you planning to seal the speakers with an enclosure box? Is the ceiling insulated? Are the walls insulated? Are the subs optimized both in placement locations and crossover? What is "typical" source material? You get the idea.

Since you've indicated you'll use these after a possible replacement of the fronts, I'd look for reliability/build quality as the first consideration (you don't want to do this more than once), followed by a general design and sensitivity match. Find a good sale and you're set.
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post #5 of 11 Old 05-15-2020, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmanko View Post
Home theater build is on the way, and looking for surround and rear surround in wall suggestions. Current speakers include polk monitor 60 L/R and C20 center, and polk owm3 pair. For Atmos I am using the owm3 and planning to get a second pair to have 4 Atmos speakers.

I am planning either 5.2.4 or 7.2.4, have 2 rows of seats so will be a surround for each row (aka 4 speakers for surround, and 2 more if I do rear surround). Room is 11’6” x 23’6”. Planning to have a false wall with primary tow 11’ to screen, so 12’ to speakers.

Since I’m considering getting 6 surrounds am not looking to go to crazy price wise (would be happy 150/speaker but can certainly go up if need be). I am looking for something in wall and neutral, so when I decide to upgrade front 3 they will still play nice. Considering auditioning SVS Ultra, ascend Sierra 2, maybe RBH to give a sense of where front 3 may be.

Not sure what to do for surrounds. Considered polk in wall but not sure they would be neutral to pair well when I upgrade. Something cheap like Monoprice alpha would be easy but I wonder if I may want to upgrade later (is a narrow room so only 6’ to MLP, and I have a svs pc2000 for bass). Is there anything else to consider? Axiom? HSU? Klipsch have sealed in wall like axiom I believe but with horn would/ sensitivity probably not pair so well...

Appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
Just to be sure, is the orientation 11'6" wide or long? I'm guessing 'wide', but that makes a big difference. A general rule of thumb is to stick with surrounds from the maker of your L-C-R's to get the closet timbre match possible. If the room is 11'6" wide, then I'd look closely at in-wall (and in-ceiling) speakers. Otherwise it'll feel like you've got these boxes hanging too close to you. IF you can borrow speakers from another system or another person, you can temporarily hang speakers on the side walls to get a feel for where the speakers should be hung. It's a bit of work, but better to spend some time experimenting before you cut holes in the walls. One 'uh oh' about in wall surrounds is making sure you know where the rooms framing boards are. You could find the perfect spot, sound-wise, and discover there's a framing member right there. Time to get out the stud sensor and find out what's behind the sheet rock.

Good Viewing,John G  JVC DLA-X790 Projector, Vutec 110" (16x9) Bright White Screen, Panasonic DP-UB420, Zappiti Mini4K HDR, Zidoo Z9s, Synology DS418 NAS, Yamaha RX-A2070 AVR, Toshiba 1250 NTSC-PAL Region Free BR Player, 7 Paradigm Reference spkrs w Dual Subs,   & Yamaha 6600 External Amp
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post #6 of 11 Old 05-15-2020, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by johng View Post
Just to be sure, is the orientation 11'6" wide or long? I'm guessing 'wide', but that makes a big difference. A general rule of thumb is to stick with surrounds from the maker of your L-C-R's to get the closet timbre match possible. If the room is 11'6" wide, then I'd look closely at in-wall (and in-ceiling) speakers. Otherwise it'll feel like you've got these boxes hanging too close to you. IF you can borrow speakers from another system or another person, you can temporarily hang speakers on the side walls to get a feel for where the speakers should be hung. It's a bit of work, but better to spend some time experimenting before you cut holes in the walls. One 'uh oh' about in wall surrounds is making sure you know where the rooms framing boards are. You could find the perfect spot, sound-wise, and discover there's a framing member right there. Time to get out the stud sensor and find out what's behind the sheet rock.

Yes 11’6” wide. Room is studs only right now. Am trying to decide what to do for the surrounds final placement. The entrance is from the side of the room and walks directly in between seat rows. To the right will be risers, so back speakers no one would ever walk past, and the far side front row surrounds no one would walk past. I have concerns about the walkway as room already narrow. It seems like side surrounds in wall make most sense there. Location would be 1 to 2’ behind the first row. I am buying speakers now so I can adjust the framed walls now before drywall goes up to get them into the correct position.

Also, I have speakers I have put in those locations and keep going back and forth on it. In walls probably make more sense looks wise, and honestly it’s 90% movies and 10% TV if that. The extra sound quality of full bookshelf’s around as surrounds probably never get fully utilized.


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post #7 of 11 Old 05-15-2020, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by abillmann View Post
I'd suggest that there's so many variables in play here (which is not a bad thing) that if you generally match the tweeter design (dome vs horn vs ribbon) and have a reasonable match in sensitivity (like +/- 2dB/watt), you'll be just fine no matter what you pick. A 7.2.4 system is obviously complex, and would make it incredibly difficult to evaluate the performance and tonality of any given subset of speakers within the entire system--except maybe the fronts.

The room itself (and therefore, placement) is usually the much bigger challenge, and the standard rhetorical questions apply: Are you going for a truly optimized setup for a certain seat or row of seats? Or generally good overall? Floor coverings, furniture placements and hard surfaces definitely affect things. Are you planning to seal the speakers with an enclosure box? Is the ceiling insulated? Are the walls insulated? Are the subs optimized both in placement locations and crossover? What is "typical" source material? You get the idea.

Since you've indicated you'll use these after a possible replacement of the fronts, I'd look for reliability/build quality as the first consideration (you don't want to do this more than once), followed by a general design and sensitivity match. Find a good sale and you're set.

Walls and ceiling are insulated. Dedicated light controlled theater room for 90%+ movie and the rest TV. I care about main listening row the most. Subs will be optimized, planning eventually for 2, front and back etc for even bass. Carpeting will be installed, and planning to have bass trap behind false wall in front, extra insulation behind wall, and acoustic panels on side walls at least at first reflection point and also on rear wall.
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post #8 of 11 Old 05-15-2020, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jmanko View Post
Yes 11’6” wide. Room is studs only right now. Am trying to decide what to do for the surrounds final placement. The entrance is from the side of the room and walks directly in between seat rows. To the right will be risers, so back speakers no one would ever walk past, and the far side front row surrounds no one would walk past. I have concerns about the walkway as room already narrow. It seems like side surrounds in wall make most sense there. Location would be 1 to 2’ behind the first row. I am buying speakers now so I can adjust the framed walls now before drywall goes up to get them into the correct position.

Also, I have speakers I have put in those locations and keep going back and forth on it. In walls probably make more sense looks wise, and honestly it’s 90% movies and 10% TV if that. The extra sound quality of full bookshelf’s around as surrounds probably never get fully utilized.


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Great. It's also fortunate that you've got a bare room (studs only). That allows you to run conduit and put all your cables inside it. Make sure you've got plenty of width for the ends of the HDMI cable. I was dealing with a finished room and had to cut into the walls. We were rushed, moving into a new house, and I failed to locate the studs before cutting into the sheet rock. Ooops! Trying to patch and match textured drywall is no fun. Are you putting the 2nd row of seating on a riser? That's what we did. It enhances to "movie theater" vibe. One of the challenges you'll face is subwoofer tuning. It really needs to be done after everything else is in place.
Good Luck!

Good Viewing,John G  JVC DLA-X790 Projector, Vutec 110" (16x9) Bright White Screen, Panasonic DP-UB420, Zappiti Mini4K HDR, Zidoo Z9s, Synology DS418 NAS, Yamaha RX-A2070 AVR, Toshiba 1250 NTSC-PAL Region Free BR Player, 7 Paradigm Reference spkrs w Dual Subs,   & Yamaha 6600 External Amp
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post #9 of 11 Old 05-15-2020, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Great. It's also fortunate that you've got a bare room (studs only). That allows you to run conduit and put all your cables inside it. Make sure you've got plenty of width for the ends of the HDMI cable. I was dealing with a finished room and had to cut into the walls. We were rushed, moving into a new house, and I failed to locate the studs before cutting into the sheet rock. Ooops! Trying to patch and match textured drywall is no fun. Are you putting the 2nd row of seating on a riser? That's what we did. It enhances to "movie theater" vibe. One of the challenges you'll face is subwoofer tuning. It really needs to be done after everything else is in place.
Good Luck!

Yes. Conduit everywhere. Building component room behind theater, also soffit for speaker runs too. Second row on risers, theater wall sconces etc. Also running 4 runs for the 2 subs....basically able to put the subs anywhere on front wall or rear wall then after room done to optimize location.


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post #10 of 11 Old 05-15-2020, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jmanko View Post
Home theater build is on the way, and looking for surround and rear surround in wall suggestions. Current speakers include polk monitor 60 L/R and C20 center, and polk owm3 pair. For Atmos I am using the owm3 and planning to get a second pair to have 4 Atmos speakers.

I am planning either 5.2.4 or 7.2.4, have 2 rows of seats so will be a surround for each row (aka 4 speakers for surround, and 2 more if I do rear surround). Room is 11’6” x 23’6”. Planning to have a false wall with primary tow 11’ to screen, so 12’ to speakers.

Since I’m considering getting 6 surrounds am not looking to go to crazy price wise (would be happy 150/speaker but can certainly go up if need be). I am looking for something in wall and neutral, so when I decide to upgrade front 3 they will still play nice. Considering auditioning SVS Ultra, ascend Sierra 2, maybe RBH to give a sense of where front 3 may be.

Not sure what to do for surrounds. Considered polk in wall but not sure they would be neutral to pair well when I upgrade. Something cheap like Monoprice alpha would be easy but I wonder if I may want to upgrade later (is a narrow room so only 6’ to MLP, and I have a svs pc2000 for bass). Is there anything else to consider? Axiom? HSU? Klipsch have sealed in wall like axiom I believe but with horn would/ sensitivity probably not pair so well...

Appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

If I’m reading your post correctly you plan on having 2 rows of side surrounds (1 pair per row) and a pair of rear surrounds. Is that correct? Are you going to use a preamp out that feeds a 4 channel amp?

Thanks and good luck!


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post #11 of 11 Old 05-15-2020, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes one pair of side surrounds per row wires in series.


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