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post #1 of 48 Old 05-14-2020, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone! It has been like 5 years since I have set up my budget home theater system and I am now looking to upgrade it a little bit. My current setup is the following:

Front: Pioneer FS SP52
Center: Pioneer SP C22
Subwoofer: Jbl ES250P
Receiver: Denon S500BT

The room it will be setup is the living room (1br apartment) and I would guess that the total size of the living room is 500 to 600 (complete guess on my part). The ceiling is probably 10 feet tall and it's a popcorn ceiling. The couch is around 6 to 8 feet away from the TV/speaker setup. TV is setup next to den/sunroom with window door that slides (not sure if any of this matters but just in case haha).

The center was a super recent impulse addition admittedly (saw it on sale for 70ish and figured why note and got it without doing research figuring they were good. I am satisfied with them but have been reading on here that they are not great)

Primarily I want to upgrade in order to have an atmos setup and rear speakers. I am budgeting around 1200 for this (give or take, obviously less is better haha) and am currently thinking of the following:

Receiver: Either the Yamaha Rx V685 or Yamaha Rx A780 (they are the same price now so A780 makes more sense I think)

Rear: 2x Yamaha Musiccast 20 wireless speakers. I can not run long cables in the place for several reasons. A) current place is a rental and this will be setup in a living room and b) girlfriend would not approve of wires running around the floor or ceiling so wireless is my only option.

Front Height: This is the main area where I am not sure about. For similar reasons as for the rears I really can't have wires running around nor can I install speakers in a ceiling. So I am mostly looking at up firing speakers. These are the ones I am considering: elac debut 2.0 a4, pioneer sp-t22a-lr, klipsch r-41sa, klipsch rp500sa, svs elevation prime.

From the height ones I am strongly leaning towards the elac (seems like a good price/performance tradeoff but not sure). Would be fairly simply as well to just plop on top of my towers. That being said, I am also considering the klipsch and the svs because I am figuring maybe I could use them as up firing for now, and once we move to a different place (whenever that happens) I could then install those on the wall angled down. The issue is that from what I have been seeing, dimension wise, both the klipsch ones and the svs are longer/wider than my pioneer towers so they would be overhanging them which a) does not look great but more importantly b) could potentially negatively impact the performance. Could someone please confirm whether height speakers overhanging a tower is an issuer or not?

I am also rethinking about getting a new center but I am personally ok (for the most part) with the current centers. But after reading the forums I am having second thoughts. Plus Pioneer has a great deal on the pioneer elite ec73 center so considering potentially upgrading to those too (but at a later date). Any thoughts on this too?

Thank you so much for taking your time to read through this and your help. Looking forward to your thoughts.

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post #2 of 48 Old 05-15-2020, 11:01 AM
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Hello everyone! It has been like 5 years since I have set up my budget home theater system and I am now looking to upgrade it a little bit. My current setup is the following:

Front: Pioneer FS SP52
Center: Pioneer SP C22
Subwoofer: Jbl ES250P
Receiver: Denon S500BT

The room it will be setup is the living room (1br apartment) and I would guess that the total size of the living room is 500 to 600 (complete guess on my part). The ceiling is probably 10 feet tall and it's a popcorn ceiling. The couch is around 6 to 8 feet away from the TV/speaker setup. TV is setup next to den/sunroom with window door that slides (not sure if any of this matters but just in case haha).

The center was a super recent impulse addition admittedly (saw it on sale for 70ish and figured why note and got it without doing research figuring they were good. I am satisfied with them but have been reading on here that they are not great)

Primarily I want to upgrade in order to have an atmos setup and rear speakers. I am budgeting around 1200 for this (give or take, obviously less is better haha) and am currently thinking of the following:

Receiver: Either the Yamaha Rx V685 or Yamaha Rx A780 (they are the same price now so A780 makes more sense I think)

Rear: 2x Yamaha Musiccast 20 wireless speakers. I can not run long cables in the place for several reasons. A) current place is a rental and this will be setup in a living room and b) girlfriend would not approve of wires running around the floor or ceiling so wireless is my only option.

Front Height: This is the main area where I am not sure about. For similar reasons as for the rears I really can't have wires running around nor can I install speakers in a ceiling. So I am mostly looking at up firing speakers. These are the ones I am considering: elac debut 2.0 a4, pioneer sp-t22a-lr, klipsch r-41sa, klipsch rp500sa, svs elevation prime.

From the height ones I am strongly leaning towards the elac (seems like a good price/performance tradeoff but not sure). Would be fairly simply as well to just plop on top of my towers. That being said, I am also considering the klipsch and the svs because I am figuring maybe I could use them as up firing for now, and once we move to a different place (whenever that happens) I could then install those on the wall angled down. The issue is that from what I have been seeing, dimension wise, both the klipsch ones and the svs are longer/wider than my pioneer towers so they would be overhanging them which a) does not look great but more importantly b) could potentially negatively impact the performance. Could someone please confirm whether height speakers overhanging a tower is an issuer or not?

I am also rethinking about getting a new center but I am personally ok (for the most part) with the current centers. But after reading the forums I am having second thoughts. Plus Pioneer has a great deal on the pioneer elite ec73 center so considering potentially upgrading to those too (but at a later date). Any thoughts on this too?

Thank you so much for taking your time to read through this and your help. Looking forward to your thoughts.
Forget Atmos until you are in a space where you can do 5.1.4 with in ceiling speakers or 4 speakers mounted at the wall/ceiling junction.

If you are unwilling to run wires under a throw rug to have 5.1 just stick to 3.1 and replace your center with the Pioneer Elite and get a real subwoofer.

PORTED SUBWOOFERS $600 AND BELOW, DELIVERED

NOTE:
*THE LARGER PORTED SUBS DELIVER AT LEAST 40% MORE SOUND PRESSURE LEVEL
THAN THE SAME BRAND'S SEALED VERSION WITH SAME SIZE WOOFER AND AMP
*IF LOOKING AT LARGER/MORE EXPENSIVE SUBWOOFERS ADD PSA TO THE LIST OF BRANDS
*IF YOU ARE NOT AN ACTION MOVIE FAN A SUBWOOFER WITH 22-30HZ EXTENSION WOULD BE FINE
*FOR MUSIC A 30HZ SUB IS A FINE CHOICE
*BEFORE BUYING MAKE A CARDBOARD CUTOUT OF THE SIZE OF THE SUB TO MAKE SURE IT IS NOT TOO LARGE FOR YOU
Specs are from the manufacturer unless noted otherwise.
Warranty
for AMP


2 years 350watts =15w16h17d= 40 lbs 10" [30hz] $399 RSL SPEEDWOOFER 10S, (extension from Sound & Vision review)

5 years 300watts =15w19h20d= 46 lbs 10" [18hz] $499 SVS PB1000, (extension from Sound & Vision Review)

5 years 400watts =17w21hx22d= 66 lbs 12" [19hz] $500 SVS PB12 NSD, (extension from Sound & Vision Review)

5 years 500watts =15w19h20d= 72 lbs 10" [20hz] $500 MONOPRICE MONOLITH THX 10"

3 years 300watts =16w22h21d= 69 lbs* 12" [19hz] $599 RHYTHMIK LV12F

2 years 350watts =15w21h22d= 62 lbs 12" [18hz] $607 HSU VTF2 MK5, (extension from Audioholics review)
* = shipping weight

SEALED SUBWOOFERS $650 AND BELOW, DELIVERED


5 years 300watts =13w14h16d= 27 lbs 12" [23hz] $499 SVS SB1000, (extension from Sound & Vision)

2 years 220watts =16w16h18d= 41 lbs 12" [28hz] $500 Q ACOUSTICS Q B12

5 years 500watts =13w16h17d= 50 lbs 10" [20hz] $500 MONOPRICE MONOLITH MTS10 THX

3 years 300watts =14w14h16d= 58 lbs* 12" [18hz] $549 RHYTHMIK L12

5 years 300watts =13w24h17d= 55 lbs 2 X 10" [20hz] $600 TEKTON 2-10

5 years 500watts =14w15h17d= 35 lbs 12" [19hz] $649 SVS SB2000 outlet, (extension from Sound & Vision)
* = shipping weight
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post #3 of 48 Old 05-15-2020, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for your input!

In terms of the Sub-woofer, I have to be honest and say that I am quite satisfied with my current one. Gives me most of what I need plus since its a relatively small space I think its good enough for it for now. Ideally later down the line I would in fact use two sub-woofers in a 5.2.2 setup (or a 5.2.4, although at this point in time, the receivers that can do 5.1.4 seem to be fairly pricey and a bit out of my budget range). But thank you for your suggestion on that!

In terms of the center, more I think about it the more I am considering getting the Pioneer Elite EC73 to replace the CS22, even though I think the CS22 is clear enough. My only concern with the Elite EC73 is that its a 4 ohm speaker and not sure how well it would work on my current budget receiver (Denon SB500BT) or even the mid-range Yamaha RX-a780/v685 that I am looking into (or a mid-range Denon for that matter).

I have been looking to upgrade to a 5.1.2 for a long time and would really like to be able to do that now rather than wait a bit. Plus after all aren't HT systems a constant work in progress anyway?

Would greatly appreciate more input on this topic and my original post. For reference I am also attaching some pictures of the living room for reference to potentially help judge the needs.
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post #4 of 48 Old 05-15-2020, 02:30 PM
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Thank you for your input!

In terms of the Sub-woofer, I have to be honest and say that I am quite satisfied with my current one. Gives me most of what I need plus since its a relatively small space I think its good enough for it for now. Ideally later down the line I would in fact use two sub-woofers in a 5.2.2 setup (or a 5.2.4, although at this point in time, the receivers that can do 5.1.4 seem to be fairly pricey and a bit out of my budget range). But thank you for your suggestion on that!

In terms of the center, more I think about it the more I am considering getting the Pioneer Elite EC73 to replace the CS22, even though I think the CS22 is clear enough. My only concern with the Elite EC73 is that its a 4 ohm speaker and not sure how well it would work on my current budget receiver (Denon SB500BT) or even the mid-range Yamaha RX-a780/v685 that I am looking into (or a mid-range Denon for that matter).

I have been looking to upgrade to a 5.1.2 for a long time and would really like to be able to do that now rather than wait a bit. Plus after all aren't HT systems a constant work in progress anyway?

Would greatly appreciate more input on this topic and my original post. For reference I am also attaching some pictures of the living room for reference to potentially help judge the needs.
Sorry, that is a pretty decent sub, 400 watt rms 12" ported, so yeah, add another.

https://www.harmanaudio.com/ES250PBK-Z.html

You shouldn't have much trouble with the Elite center or, for that matter, that atmos ready bookshelves as they never drop below 4.7 ohms.

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...iew-test-bench

$169 brand new on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/p/26034600300?i...QaAki7EALw_wcB

$479/pair for the bookshelves.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-Eli...oAAOSw-btasRrT

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post #5 of 48 Old 05-15-2020, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by tribesdude View Post
In terms of the Sub-woofer, I have to be honest and say that I am quite satisfied with my current one. Gives me most of what I need plus since its a relatively small space I think its good enough for it for now. Ideally later down the line I would in fact use two sub-woofers in a 5.2.2 setup (or a 5.2.4, although at this point in time, the receivers that can do 5.1.4 seem to be fairly pricey and a bit out of my budget range). But thank you for your suggestion on that!

In terms of the center, more I think about it the more I am considering getting the Pioneer Elite EC73 to replace the CS22, even though I think the CS22 is clear enough. My only concern with the Elite EC73 is that its a 4 ohm speaker and not sure how well it would work on my current budget receiver (Denon SB500BT) or even the mid-range Yamaha RX-a780/v685 that I am looking into (or a mid-range Denon for that matter).

I have been looking to upgrade to a 5.1.2 for a long time and would really like to be able to do that now rather than wait a bit. Plus after all aren't HT systems a constant work in progress anyway?
If you're 100% happy with your C22, then consider yourself a very fortunate exception and keep your money in your pocket. I think the way you have it placed might be the secret---it's pretty much ideal compared to how many people stuff their center inside the cabinet, pointing at knee/shin level.

The speaker placement in your photo that is NOT ideal however, is with the towers. I would pull both of them forward at least a 6-12 inches and toe them in, especially the left tower in that corner.

And to maximize your subwoofer's output, I'd try putting it in the corner where that left tower is.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #6 of 48 Old 05-15-2020, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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If you're 100% happy with your C22, then consider yourself a very fortunate exception and keep your money in your pocket. I think the way you have it placed might be the secret---it's pretty much ideal compared to how many people stuff their center inside the cabinet, pointing at knee/shin level.



The speaker placement in your photo that is NOT ideal however, is with the towers. I would pull both of them forward at least a 6-12 inches and toe them in, especially the left tower in that corner.



And to maximize your subwoofer's output, I'd try putting it in the corner where that left tower is.
Yeah I am fairly satisfied with it, not sure if 100% would be accurate but fairly satisfied. Haha not sure if I am having second thoughts because of any perceived imperfection in the speakers or if I am biased after reading negative reactions to it. I guess the only issue I may have is that maybe it's dispersion is not ideal (I tend to sit/lie off center closer to the left side so left sounds a bit louder, but that could also simply be due to the sitting position.)

Thank you for the suggestion, I will try moving them forward and changing the position of left speaker and subwoofer to see if there is any change/improvement (current placement is purely for asthetic reasons).

Has anyone tried using the Yamaha Musiccast 20 as wireless rears and has any experience with how they sound or how they work as rears? Or has any other suggestions for trying to do wireless rears. Sadly due to the room setup (as seen in pics) , it being a rental, and the gf factor I really can't do wired rears. Due to asthetic reasons was planning on mounting rears on the back wall near the couch a few inches above ear level and angled down.

Lastly (and I apologize for all the questions and long text) anyone have any experience with upward firing atmos speakers and them overhanging tower speakers? If an atmos module is longer/wider than the floor standing towers which I plan to place the upward firing speakers (which is the case for example if I were to get one of the klipsch I mentioned in the original post and put them on top of the fs52) would them overhanging negatively affect the sound or the atmos effect?



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post #7 of 48 Old 05-18-2020, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Been doing some more research and thinking and have one more idea.

Rather than upgrading to 5.1.2 from 3.1, I could simply replace the front and center speakers I have now (similar to gajCA's great suggestion, started thinking about it after that)

In the later case, I could get the B&W 606 Bookshelfs and the B&W Htm6 center to replace my Pioneer AJ Towers and Center. I should be able to get that set for half it's price (around 800 after everything is said and done). What do you guys think, would this be a worthwhile upgrade or should I instead focus on 5.1.2 instead. Where would I notice more of a notice (keep in mind I mostly watch movies/TV and play games)

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post #8 of 48 Old 05-18-2020, 11:15 AM
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Been doing some more research and thinking and have one more idea.

Rather than upgrading to 5.1.2 from 3.1, I could simply replace the front and center speakers I have now (similar to gajCA's great suggestion, started thinking about it after that)

In the later case, I could get the B&W 606 Bookshelfs and the B&W Htm6 center to replace my Pioneer AJ Towers and Center. I should be able to get that set for half it's price (around 800 after everything is said and done). What do you guys think, would this be a worthwhile upgrade or should I instead focus on 5.1.2 instead. Where would I notice more of a notice (keep in mind I mostly watch movies/TV and play games)
I think that for your needs going to 5.1.2 would be a better goal with an improved center.

Any chance of putting the Atmos speakers near the ceiling/wall juncture directly above your current left/right aimed down at your listening position using these or similar?

https://www.svsound.com/collections/...hoC8MoQAvD_BwE

Geoff A. J., California
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post #9 of 48 Old 05-18-2020, 11:29 AM
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Been doing some more research and thinking and have one more idea.

Rather than upgrading to 5.1.2 from 3.1, I could simply replace the front and center speakers I have now (similar to gajCA's great suggestion, started thinking about it after that)

In the later case, I could get the B&W 606 Bookshelfs and the B&W Htm6 center to replace my Pioneer AJ Towers and Center. I should be able to get that set for half it's price (around 800 after everything is said and done). What do you guys think, would this be a worthwhile upgrade or should I instead focus on 5.1.2 instead. Where would I notice more of a notice (keep in mind I mostly watch movies/TV and play games)
Since HT/TV is your main usage not music, I would steer clear of B&W.

For $834 shipped you could get 3 x Ascend 340SE, or closer to $900, 3 x Chane A2.4 --- either would kill those B&Ws.

The only thing the B&Ws would have over those 2 would be prettier cabinets.

If you have space for the Emotiva C2, that plus their B1s would also be night and day better.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #10 of 48 Old 05-18-2020, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I think that for your needs going to 5.1.2 would be a better goal with an improved center.

Any chance of putting the Atmos speakers near the ceiling/wall juncture directly above your current left/right aimed down at your listening position using these or similar?

https://www.svsound.com/collections/...hoC8MoQAvD_BwE
Yeah that is a possibility, not most ideal at this current point in time but a possibility (would need to get the approval of the GF which so far has been reluctant on that aspect of the setup, otherwise would love to do that). I have been looking at those SVS Elevations though (as well as the Klipsch R-41SA and Klipsch RP-500sa). I know that would sound better/more convincing than upward firing. But one thought was getting something like those SVS Elevation/Klipsch and initially using it as an upward firing and then when the time is right (either GF approval or move to a bigger place with dedicated room for entertainment) moving them up onto the wall (thought this may be a more cost effective/future facing way of doing it).

And yeah thats the thing, I was thinking would I really notice that much of an improvement with a changed front compared to changed center and surround/atmos. In terms of the financial outlay as well like spend 800 on just changing fronts+center vs a 1000ish on center+surround, what would get the best value for money. But thank you I am still leaning very much towards the center+surround option and your thoughts/input further reaffirmed that position.
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post #11 of 48 Old 05-18-2020, 11:49 AM
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Yeah that is a possibility, not most ideal at this current point in time but a possibility (would need to get the approval of the GF which so far has been reluctant on that aspect of the setup, otherwise would love to do that). I have been looking at those SVS Elevations though (as well as the Klipsch R-41SA and Klipsch RP-500sa). I know that would sound better/more convincing than upward firing. But one thought was getting something like those SVS Elevation/Klipsch and initially using it as an upward firing and then when the time is right (either GF approval or move to a bigger place with dedicated room for entertainment) moving them up onto the wall (thought this may be a more cost effective/future facing way of doing it).

And yeah thats the thing, I was thinking would I really notice that much of an improvement with a changed front compared to changed center and surround/atmos. In terms of the financial outlay as well like spend 800 on just changing fronts+center vs a 1000ish on center+surround, what would get the best value for money. But thank you I am still leaning very much towards the center+surround option and your thoughts/input further reaffirmed that position.
You're in luck...Infinity just started another one of their jaw dropping sales, and all of their stuff comes with free return shipping. This stuff is also head and shoulders better than the Pio AJs.

You can get the R263 center, a pair of R162 bookshelves, and a pair of their surrounds for around $460 all in---I'd grab that ASAP before they sell out.
https://slickdeals.net/f/14060573-in...?src=frontpage

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #12 of 48 Old 05-18-2020, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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You're in luck...Infinity just started another one of their jaw dropping sales, and all of their stuff comes with free return shipping. This stuff is also head and shoulders better than the Pio AJs.

You can get the R263 center, a pair of R162 bookshelves, and a pair of their surrounds for around $460 all in---I'd grab that ASAP before they sell out.
https://slickdeals.net/f/14060573-in...?src=frontpage
Oh nice thank you for that, will check those out now! That is not a bad price at all for center plus bookshelf. Only issue is that the center is a little heavy for my top tv mount but I am sure if I get that center and another mount I could just distribute the weight across two mounts.

On a separate note (related to your earlier message). Yeah I have never heard B&W speakers, only headphones (and was completely underwhelmed by the headphones for the price, my cheaper AKG K7xx or Sennheiser HD6XX sounded way better and were cheaper, only issue is the HD 6XX still have such a massive clamping force) so I always had a bit of a negative opinion of B&W from a price/performance point, but looked at the 606 since they seemed to be reviewed well and more importantly b) could get them for more than half of MSRP.

Anyway thank you for your thoughts will check those Infinity out. If it will be 460 all in could theoretically still afford a 5.1.2 upgrade while also upgrading the fronts!
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post #13 of 48 Old 05-18-2020, 12:09 PM
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Oh nice thank you for that, will check those out now! That is not a bad price at all for center plus bookshelf. Only issue is that the center is a little heavy for my top tv mount but I am sure if I get that center and another mount I could just distribute the weight across two mounts.

On a separate note (related to your earlier message). Yeah I have never heard B&W speakers, only headphones (and was completely underwhelmed by the headphones for the price, my cheaper AKG K7xx or Sennheiser HD6XX sounded way better and were cheaper, only issue is the HD 6XX still have such a massive clamping force) so I always had a bit of a negative opinion of B&W from a price/performance point, but looked at the 606 since they seemed to be reviewed well and more importantly b) could get them for more than half of MSRP.

Anyway thank you for your thoughts will check those Infinity out. If it will be 460 all in could theoretically still afford a 5.1.2 upgrade while also upgrading the fronts!
I would not expect the B&W to be significantly better than the Infinity for HT/TV, if at all---more importantly, I'd expect the big 3-way Infinity RC263 (and I'd do WHATEVER it takes to make it fit) to stomp all over the HTM6 where it counts: the center does 70-80% of the HT output and 99% of the dialogue. Ergo, the center is the ABSOLUTE LAST place you want to cut corners in any HT setup.

Coupled with the staggering sale price of the Infinity, and it's a no brainer to try them out first.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #14 of 48 Old 05-18-2020, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I would not expect the B&W to be significantly better than the Infinity for HT/TV, if at all---more importantly, I'd expect the big 3-way Infinity RC263 (and I'd do WHATEVER it takes to make it fit) to stomp all over the HTM6 where it counts: the center does 70-80% of the HT output and 99% of the dialogue. Ergo, the center is the ABSOLUTE LAST place you want to cut corners in any HT setup.

Coupled with the staggering sale price of the Infinity, and it's a no brainer to try them out first.
Yeah I agree, I have never actually tried to first several speakers to audition and then keep the ones I like the most. I may do that (although I feel a little bad doing that not gonna lie), but lets see. I would assume though that even if the B&W is slightly better (which I dont know, may be worse may be the same) but I cant imagine it being that much better compared to how much more it costs. The RC263 does look very beefy though.

I have ordered the RC263 and R162 (just 1 pair of bookshelves not 2 pairs since I, sadly, cant do wired rears at this point in time). All in at $300 which is very good (especially since I was already debating replacing my center with at least a Pioneer Elite EC73 which would have cost me $150). Not gonna lie was a little tempted to go for the Reference 253 but could not justify the 800 cost and figured since I have a sub and a relatively small space bookshelves would work. Will definitiely post my thoughts on them once I set them up and give them a listen! Haha hopefully my current budget receiver wont too negatively effect their sound.

Thank you again for your suggestion on those!
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Yeah I agree, I have never actually tried to first several speakers to audition and then keep the ones I like the most. I may do that (although I feel a little bad doing that not gonna lie), but lets see. I would assume though that even if the B&W is slightly better (which I dont know, may be worse may be the same) but I cant imagine it being that much better compared to how much more it costs. The RC263 does look very beefy though.

I have ordered the RC263 and R162 (just 1 pair of bookshelves not 2 pairs since I, sadly, cant do wired rears at this point in time). All in at $300 which is very good (especially since I was already debating replacing my center with at least a Pioneer Elite EC73 which would have cost me $150). Not gonna lie was a little tempted to go for the Reference 253 but could not justify the 800 cost and figured since I have a sub and a relatively small space bookshelves would work. Will definitiely post my thoughts on them once I set them up and give them a listen! Haha hopefully my current budget receiver wont too negatively effect their sound.
Good choices! Be sure to post a follow up once you get everything in and set up.

The 253 towers aren't on sale yet; when they are, they are like $250 per pair IIRC.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #16 of 48 Old 05-18-2020, 01:03 PM
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Yeah I agree, I have never actually tried to first several speakers to audition and then keep the ones I like the most. I may do that (although I feel a little bad doing that not gonna lie), but lets see. I would assume though that even if the B&W is slightly better (which I dont know, may be worse may be the same) but I cant imagine it being that much better compared to how much more it costs. The RC263 does look very beefy though.

I have ordered the RC263 and R162 (just 1 pair of bookshelves not 2 pairs since I, sadly, cant do wired rears at this point in time). All in at $300 which is very good (especially since I was already debating replacing my center with at least a Pioneer Elite EC73 which would have cost me $150). Not gonna lie was a little tempted to go for the Reference 253 but could not justify the 800 cost and figured since I have a sub and a relatively small space bookshelves would work. Will definitiely post my thoughts on them once I set them up and give them a listen! Haha hopefully my current budget receiver wont too negatively effect their sound.

Thank you again for your suggestion on those!
Detailed review with measurements; it will sound significantly different than what you have but likely in a good way.

The basic microphone based room EQ in your Denon should help tame some of the highs.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.12333/

Review of your center.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.12442/

Geoff A. J., California

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post #17 of 48 Old 05-27-2020, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have had infinity system for almost a week now and I gotta say it sounds excellent! Massive difference between these and my old Pioneer AJ setup.

The Soundstage is so much wider and the highs/treble so crisp. I can see why some people say these are a little trebly but the treble does not create any fatigue (I do like my sound more high so a bit biased here). You can hear a lot more detail when listening to music or watching movies on this compared to the other speakers. It's also much easier to hear dialogue at night when turning down the volume. The bass is a little bit harder for me to evaluate since I have a subwoofer and haven't tried listening without one using these so can't comment on its performance there accurately. But for sure massive upgrade over the AJs (the sound with those was so veiled).

The center speaker is massive, I knew it was big based on the weight (almost 30lbs) but wow these are big. A little difficult to place it and make sure that the tweeter is angled down enough to the right level but I think I managed (give or take a few inches). I can see now why people say the pioneer C22 is a bad center, night and day difference in actually being able to hear the dialogue and the clarity of it.

Overall very happy with these speakers, the only con I have based on my use so far is the quality control. There was a small chip on the bottom of the center speaker (barely noticeable, doesn't bother me enough to do a return replace but still should be mentioned).

Now that the front situation has been improved, gonna go ahead and continue with the HT upgrade with the rears/atmos I think. Will most likely end up going with musiccast 20 wireless rears, a yamaha rx a780 avr, and some cheap atmos modules (either pioneer sp t22 lr, elac debut a4 if it comes down in price a little, or the Sony sscse, don't want to spend more than a 100ish on the atmos modules since don't even know how well they will work, and there is still not too much atmos content out there). If anyone has any further suggestions on the setup (please keep in mind that I need wireless rears or a way to do the rears wireless) would great appreciate the suggestions, the suggestion for the fronts was excellent so I am sure I can't go wrong seeing what you guys think on this topic!
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post #18 of 48 Old 05-27-2020, 02:21 PM
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So I have had infinity system for almost a week now and I gotta say it sounds excellent! Massive difference between these and my old Pioneer AJ setup.
Congrats; looks very nice too.

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You don't have blinds over those sliding glass doors? Is it not a PITA to watch tv with all that glare from the outside light?
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You can hear a lot more detail when listening to music or watching movies on this compared to the other speakers. It's also much easier to hear dialogue at night when turning down the volume. But for sure massive upgrade over the AJs (the sound with those was so veiled). The center speaker is massive, I knew it was big based on the weight (almost 30lbs) but wow these are big. A little difficult to place it and make sure that the tweeter is angled down enough to the right level but I think I managed (give or take a few inches). I can see now why people say the pioneer C22 is a bad center, night and day difference in actually being able to hear the dialogue and the clarity of it.
See, THIS is why I'm always laughing out loud at those allegedly "science-based" posters who will claim that gosh, the Pioneer C22 "can't be THAT bad, since so-and-so audio person/publication/website got decent measurements out of them."

Consistent REAL-WORLD anecdotal evidence such as yours imo just CRUSHES all the silly measurements on god's green earth.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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See, THIS is why I'm always laughing out loud at those allegedly "science-based" posters who will claim that gosh, the Pioneer C22 "can't be THAT bad, since so-and-so audio person/publication/website got decent measurements out of them."
What the heII are you blabbering about? Please show me ONE measurement of the Pioneer C22! I can't find a single one on the internet, Pio's website or anywhere else. Without a full suite of CEA2034 measurements, we "science-based" posters can't even comment on them, much less claim that "gosh, they can't be that bad." The Infinity's OTOH, do have a full suite CEA2034 of acoustic measurements, as posted by @gajCA . These show very good, neutral on-axis frequency response and decent off-axis response with a slight depression in the 700 - 1,000 Hz range, likely due to the lobing inherent in a horizontal MTM design.

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Consistent REAL-WORLD anecdotal evidence such as yours imo just CRUSHES all the silly measurements on god's green earth.
In this case, and most every OTHER case, the "silly" measurements crushes confirm the OP's listening impressions of his new speakers. Since we don't *know* how the Pio's measure, we can't compare them to the Infinity's.

Once again, you just appear uninformed.

Craig

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"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.
My System (Edited Feb. 2020 to add 4K and Atmos updates)
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What the heII are you blabbering about? Please show me ONE measurement of the Pioneer C22!
LOL, Craig...haven't you ever heard of Google?

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-labs-measures

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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So I have had infinity system for almost a week now and I gotta say it sounds excellent!!
Another "Psych" fan, I see.

What brand and model are those speaker stands?



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LOL, Craig...haven't you ever heard of Google?

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-labs-measures
I did a google search for "Pioneer SP C22 review with measurements" and Google did not find that one. Even so, it's pretty obvious that the Pioneer is not nearly as neutral as the Infinity.



The C22 is the green trace. That distinct peak in the response from 8 kHz to 12 kHz will make that speaker "bright" sounding. The recession at 2 kHz will suck the life out of the upper midrange exacerbating the brightness. I'm not the least bit surprised that the OP prefers the sound of the Infinity's based on the measurements. Thanks for finding that measurement to confirm that the science shows just what we expected.

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My System (Edited Feb. 2020 to add 4K and Atmos updates)
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That distinct peak in the response from 8 kHz to 12 kHz will make that speaker "bright" sounding. The recession at 2 kHz will suck the life out of the upper midrange exacerbating the brightness. I'm not the least bit surprised that the OP prefers the sound of the Infinity's based on the measurements. Thanks for finding that measurement to confirm that the science shows just what we expected.
Easy to say all that in hindsight, especially after reading the OP's experiences.

A number of people were using those exact same measurements to defend the C22 who had never heard it---they were simply going by the presumed infallibility and omniscience of measurements.

However, NOBODY has ever accused ANY of the Pioneer AJs of being "bright sounding" in the least, in fact quite the opposite ("warm") has been the consensus from both the PAJs' detractors and fans. Another problem with your post-facto analysis.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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Another "Psych" fan, I see.

What brand and model are those speaker stands?



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Yeah huge fan of the show its hilarious. As a fan of both Psych and the Mentalist love it when Psych pokes fun at the mentalist.

Regarding your questions they are the 23 inch Vivo stands from Amazon. Here is the link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HDVVAJS..._UTVZEbTVJ3EBA

For the price they are fairly good so far, stable, look stylish ish and can support up to 22lbs.

To the commenter regarding curtains, honestly it does not bother me and when it's day I prefer the apartment to be bright (I am also used to watching with light since I was young). The glare is there but minimal since the TV can get bright enough to combat it (I believe it's peak brightness is around 900nits so plenty bright even with the light).

Lastly in terms of measurements, I a new to the speaker scene but used to take headphones quite seriously. I do think there are merits to both sides of it (measurement and then just listening experience/taste). I know for sure that I have tried headphones with good fairly good measurements and have not liked them (sennheiser hd 650/6xx, not my cup of tea, I mean they sound good but a bit over rated in my book given all the praise they get), but I have also liked headphones that measure fairly well (love the akg k7xx). And on that note some headphones that don't measure superbly (if I recall the akg k267 tiesto don't measure super well, I could be wrong, but they are probably my second favorite pair of headphones, right behind the k7xx). But on the flip side the sennheiser urbanites xl, which don't measure great, not a fan, or the Jabra elite 85h,not a fan either. Just some examples of the top of my head. But anyway sorry for being long winded (and granted no one asked haha) but my 2cents is that there are merits to both arguments or I can see where both of you guys are coming from.
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post #27 of 48 Old 06-01-2020, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry to bring this thread back, but I just saw something and since I have not heard then wanted some input.

I just saw that the Jbl Studio 530 are back on sale for 300. Was wondering would there be an appreciable improvement in SQ between those and the R162? Was thinking of maybe replacing the front with those (But I'd probably still keep the 162 around for some other use). Is it worth the 2x price difference?

Haha this upgrade and audio hobby can get so expensive.
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post #28 of 48 Old 06-01-2020, 08:49 AM
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Sorry to bring this thread back, but I just saw something and since I have not heard then wanted some input.

I just saw that the Jbl Studio 530 are back on sale for 300. Was wondering would there be an appreciable improvement in SQ between those and the R162? Was thinking of maybe replacing the front with those (But I'd probably still keep the 162 around for some other use). Is it worth the 2x price difference?

Haha this upgrade and audio hobby can get so expensive.
No, I wouldn't anticipate much difference beyond the 162 having more volume capability. You could grab a pair to try for yourself and send back on JBL's dime if you're so inclined but I'd be surprised if you observed a drastic change that was directly related to the speaker's themselves.
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post #29 of 48 Old 06-01-2020, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tribesdude View Post
Sorry to bring this thread back, but I just saw something and since I have not heard then wanted some input.

I just saw that the Jbl Studio 530 are back on sale for 300. Was wondering would there be an appreciable improvement in SQ between those and the R162? Was thinking of maybe replacing the front with those (But I'd probably still keep the 162 around for some other use). Is it worth the 2x price difference?

Haha this upgrade and audio hobby can get so expensive.
Reviews and measurements of both from the same source.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.12298/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.12333/

Geoff A. J., California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tribesdude View Post
Sorry to bring this thread back, but I just saw something and since I have not heard then wanted some input.

I just saw that the Jbl Studio 530 are back on sale for 300. Was wondering would there be an appreciable improvement in SQ between those and the R162? Was thinking of maybe replacing the front with those (But I'd probably still keep the 162 around for some other use). Is it worth the 2x price difference?

Haha this upgrade and audio hobby can get so expensive.
Reviews and measurements of both from the same source.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.12298/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.12333/
Thank you for those, had not seen the Studio 530 review. I like Amirs reviews (even though some of it goes way over my head but still very through reviews imo).

Based on that I am leaning towards just sticking with the infinity r162 (since I also like them a little brighter and although I know this ain't that important in the grand scheme of things, the studio 530 do look kinda ugly). Still thinking though haha, but I'm always like that (other option was get 530 and move 162 to rear using rocketfish rear speaker kit but I would prefer smaller rears and the 162 are massive imo)

Thank you again for the links!
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