~1000k to upgrade 4.1.2 or 5.1.2 system - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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~1000k to upgrade 4.1.2 or 5.1.2 system

I posted awhile back in the home theater section and didn't get any replies, now I'm looking at speaker upgrades so I thought I would post over here.

I do not have a set price, but I'm not looking at making a super high end system. A golf club or ball could certainly hit any of the speakers. This room is used 80% golf simulator and 20% Home Theater.

I did purchase and am waiting on delivery of a new receiver on sale for $270: Yamaha TSR-7850R 7.2
And 2 ceiling speakers for Atmos, MICCA M-8C x2

Room: 18' Length, 13' Wide, 8'6" ceilings. One wall mostly open to the rest of the basement with a small pony wall on part of it.
Seating Position: Due to the golf simulator the only place for the couch is all the way against the far wall (there is a window on this wall).

L/R: Need to be to the left and right of the screen enclosure, there is a 6" wall stick out on the left and 7" on the right so smaller width is better but 8" width seems ok with a little overlap over the screen enclosure. I would think bookshelves wall mounted would be better than towers with the pony wall on the right.

Center: Needs to be above the screen enclosure. This is 13" of wall, must have room for a shelf to hold it as well and the shelf sitting a 2-3" above the bottom would be ideal (to avoid getting hit by golf clubs). Will need to point this one downward some. In ceiling would be physically much better for the center but I would think 4.1.2 would be better than 5.1.2 with in ceiling center.

Surrounds: Will be to the sides of the couch, can wall mount or do ceiling mount but from what I've read here wall mounting to the sides should be better.
Atmos: Ceiling mount, I think I have 12" rafters so it is pretty flexible on placement.

Currently have (in addition to new receiver and M-8Cx2 listed above):
Polk Floor standing R50 x2 and CSR Center (I have not mounted the center but it would fit)
Bic H100 Sub

Considering

1) New front 2/3 speakers and use R50 for surrounds or get new surrounds as well
NHT C1 x2 for L/R and possibly surrounds x2 as well $128 each
HTM-200 SE x3 for L/C/R (Center is the exact same as the L/R I believe at 11"x6.5x6.375, should fit above) $150 each
Polk T15 for possible wall mount surround option $40x2

2) Keep Polk R50+CSR and wall mount the L and C speakers. Buy cheapish surrounds and get a $500-600 sub to run solo or in addition to the BIC.

3) Ceiling mount the center and possibly even the L/R. Would be functionally awesome with the golf part but sonically not ideal.

4) Open to other options!
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post #2 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by blynch1985 View Post
I posted awhile back in the home theater section and didn't get any replies, now I'm looking at speaker upgrades so I thought I would post over here.

I do not have a set price, but I'm not looking at making a super high end system. A golf club or ball could certainly hit any of the speakers. This room is used 80% golf simulator and 20% Home Theater.

I did purchase and am waiting on delivery of a new receiver on sale for $270: Yamaha TSR-7850R 7.2
And 2 ceiling speakers for Atmos, MICCA M-8C x2

Room: 18' Length, 13' Wide, 8'6" ceilings. One wall mostly open to the rest of the basement with a small pony wall on part of it.
Seating Position: Due to the golf simulator the only place for the couch is all the way against the far wall (there is a window on this wall).

L/R: Need to be to the left and right of the screen enclosure, there is a 6" wall stick out on the left and 7" on the right so smaller width is better but 8" width seems ok with a little overlap over the screen enclosure. I would think bookshelves wall mounted would be better than towers with the pony wall on the right.

Center: Needs to be above the screen enclosure. This is 13" of wall, must have room for a shelf to hold it as well and the shelf sitting a 2-3" above the bottom would be ideal (to avoid getting hit by golf clubs). Will need to point this one downward some. In ceiling would be physically much better for the center but I would think 4.1.2 would be better than 5.1.2 with in ceiling center.

Surrounds: Will be to the sides of the couch, can wall mount or do ceiling mount but from what I've read here wall mounting to the sides should be better.
Atmos: Ceiling mount, I think I have 12" rafters so it is pretty flexible on placement.

Currently have (in addition to new receiver and M-8Cx2 listed above):
Polk Floor standing R50 x2 and CSR Center (I have not mounted the center but it would fit)
Bic H100 Sub

Considering

1) New front 2/3 speakers and use R50 for surrounds or get new surrounds as well
NHT C1 x2 for L/R and possibly surrounds x2 as well $128 each
HTM-200 SE x3 for L/C/R (Center is the exact same as the L/R I believe at 11"x6.5x6.375, should fit above) $150 each
Polk T15 for possible wall mount surround option $40x2

2) Keep Polk R50+CSR and wall mount the L and C speakers. Buy cheapish surrounds and get a $500-600 sub to run solo or in addition to the BIC.

3) Ceiling mount the center and possibly even the L/R. Would be functionally awesome with the golf part but sonically not ideal.

4) Open to other options!
I would use these outside speakers with durable metal grills in all positions and you will end up with one left over but you can't beat the price, performance, and fact that they come with mounting brackets.

$100/speaker with free returns if not happy.

https://rslspeakers.com/products/rsl-outsider-ii/

Frequency Response: 50-19,000 Hz ± 3db
Woofer: 6 1/2″ with Ferrite Magnet, Polymer Composite Cone, Rubber Surround
Tweeter: 1″ Silk Dome, Ferrite Magnet
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Sensitivity: 88 db SPL @ 1 watt, 1 meter distance
Weight: 7 lbs
Dimensions: 11 1/2” W: 8 1/2” D: 8 7/8” (Without bracket 7 1/2”)
Recommended Power: 25 – 100 watts (Amplifiers up to 150 watts can be used if care is taken not to operate the speakers at maximum volume)
Crossover Frequency: 2,500 Hz
Crossover Slope: 6 db/octave
Cabinet: UV Treated, Polymer Infused Anti-Resonant enclosure
Binding Posts: Gold Plated
Mounting Brackets: Aluminum
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post #3 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
I would use these outside speakers with durable metal grills in all positions and you will end up with one left over but you can't beat the price, performance, and fact that they come with mounting brackets.

$100/speaker with free returns if not happy.

https://rslspeakers.com/products/rsl-outsider-ii/

Frequency Response: 50-19,000 Hz ± 3db
Woofer: 6 1/2″ with Ferrite Magnet, Polymer Composite Cone, Rubber Surround
Tweeter: 1″ Silk Dome, Ferrite Magnet
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Sensitivity: 88 db SPL @ 1 watt, 1 meter distance
Weight: 7 lbs
Dimensions: 11 1/2” W: 8 1/2” D: 8 7/8” (Without bracket 7 1/2”)
Recommended Power: 25 – 100 watts (Amplifiers up to 150 watts can be used if care is taken not to operate the speakers at maximum volume)
Crossover Frequency: 2,500 Hz
Crossover Slope: 6 db/octave
Cabinet: UV Treated, Polymer Infused Anti-Resonant enclosure
Binding Posts: Gold Plated
Mounting Brackets: Aluminum
Seems like a good option. I particularly like the built in mounting bracket. Would prefer black and a little better looking speaker, but the sturdy construction is a plus. I've been using this golf simulator for quite a few months and I haven't yet hit those floor standers to the sides, so the L/R speakers are at risk but fairly low risk (at enough risk that I don't want $500+/spk fronts). The surrounds should be almost zero risk of getting hit. How would these speakers compare to the 200SE from ascend acoustics $150/spk or NHT C1 at $128/spk?
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post #4 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blynch1985 View Post
I do not have a set price, but I'm not looking at making a super high end system. A golf club or ball could certainly hit any of the speakers. This room is used 80% golf simulator and 20% Home Theater.

Room: 18' Length, 13' Wide, 8'6" ceilings. One wall mostly open to the rest of the basement with a small pony wall on part of it.
Seating Position: Due to the golf simulator the only place for the couch is all the way against the far wall (there is a window on this wall).

L/R: Need to be to the left and right of the screen enclosure, there is a 6" wall stick out on the left and 7" on the right so smaller width is better but 8" width seems ok with a little overlap over the screen enclosure. I would think bookshelves wall mounted would be better than towers with the pony wall on the right.

Center: Needs to be above the screen enclosure. This is 13" of wall, must have room for a shelf to hold it as well and the shelf sitting a 2-3" above the bottom would be ideal (to avoid getting hit by golf clubs). Will need to point this one downward some. In ceiling would be physically much better for the center but I would think 4.1.2 would be better than 5.1.2 with in ceiling center.

Surrounds: Will be to the sides of the couch, can wall mount or do ceiling mount but from what I've read here wall mounting to the sides should be better.
Atmos: Ceiling mount, I think I have 12" rafters so it is pretty flexible on placement.
Easy solution to the golf-ball danger: get outdoor speakers that have sturdy metal cabinets and most importantly, metal GRILLES to protect the drivers. This one in particular appears to be an excellent value, and you get free return shipping just in case:
https://rslspeakers.com/products/rsl-outsider-ii/

They're sold only in pairs, but at $200/pr you'd be perfectly fine with having an extra one lying around as a spare. Very respectable 50Hz 3db roll off means you should get a nice full sound out of them, and 88db sensitivity means they'll be easy for your Yamaha to drive. Plus they come with easy to mount brackets.

Put the savings into upgrading that subwoofer...you have to figure in the entire open space not just the actual listening area, so you're dealing with more than 18 x 13' ...

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #5 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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The basement it opens into is the same 18' width for about 100' additional feet. I imagine I could curtain off the theater section to help a little with the bass dissipation. Also constrained by the only good sub locations being to the left and right of the couch.
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post #6 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 12:51 PM
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The basement it opens into is the same 18' width for about 100' additional feet. I imagine I could curtain off the theater section to help a little with the bass dissipation. Also constrained by the only good sub locations being to the left and right of the couch.
Nothing wrong with putting a sub right next to where you sit. In fact, with a weak starter sub like the H100, it would be a big help. With a powerhouse sub like a Hsu VTF-3 or VTF-15, it would be a game changer especially if you can't do a pair of subs. Your total CONTIGUOUS space seems to be ginormous! Curtains won't really help, but something solid like a door would.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #7 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 12:52 PM
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Disappointed with thread title, was hoping for 1 million budget D:
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post #8 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Disappointed with thread title, was hoping for 1 million budget D:
LOL, missed that typo.
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post #9 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 01:14 PM
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Seems like a good option. I particularly like the built in mounting bracket. Would prefer black and a little better looking speaker, but the sturdy construction is a plus. I've been using this golf simulator for quite a few months and I haven't yet hit those floor standers to the sides, so the L/R speakers are at risk but fairly low risk (at enough risk that I don't want $500+/spk fronts). The surrounds should be almost zero risk of getting hit. How would these speakers compare to the 200SE from ascend acoustics $150/spk or NHT C1 at $128/spk?
Well, your wall are white/off white so not sure the white is problematic.

Thing is these things are rather unique in another regard other than price/value and free returns from a company well known for quality sound and that is the offset tweeter which minimizes and issue with using them horizontally as well as vertically.

Tweeter/woofer directly stacked above each other perform well vertically but less well horizontally off axis.

As you can see they used to sell them in black so you could ask if they have any black ones in storage.


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post #10 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 04:53 PM
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I'm scared. Geoff, Zorba, and I all agree on the same thing... lol


I like Zorba's idea of getting as big a sub as you can and placing it as close to your couch as you can.
There is likely no way that you will be able to pressurize that entire basement. Maybe with some Danley tapped horns, but those come in shipping containers (or are MADE FROM shipping containers)...


The outdoor speaker recommendation id for ease of mounting, their protection, and cost. You may be able to trust yourself golfing with your simulator, but do you really trust anyone else? If YOU nail a speaker, you have only yourself to blame, if it's your best friend who accidentally tees off like I do and drive a ball at a 45* angle to the left, then that's both of you who will feel remorse.
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post #11 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Significant other likes white more than black for this location. That plus the metal grills and built in mount, the outsider IIs are making a really good argument.

If I do three of them for the front, L/R would be best wall mounted at ear height vertically and the center mounted close to the ceiling horizontally?

I definitely don't need metal protection for the surrounds, best to stick with outsiders still for surrounds or go with something else?

If I add a sub, should I still use my cheap sub and place one on each side of the couch, or is the BIC not worth using with a better sub in place(receiver has two sub outs but no independent calibration)?
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post #12 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Also these RSL Outsiders are they a significant upgrade from the Polk front 3 I already have? They are certainly on the cheaper side of what I was expecting to upgrade to on the front three (not complaining that they are cheaper but I would like a sound upgrade).
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post #13 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 08:19 PM
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Also these RSL Outsiders are they a significant upgrade from the Polk front 3 I already have? They are certainly on the cheaper side of what I was expecting to upgrade to on the front three (not complaining that they are cheaper but I would like a sound upgrade).
Most definitely...the R and T series are Polk's bottom-of-the-barrel speakers, and their CS series of centers are their worst. Wouldn't take much to get an audible improvement over those.

Just make sure you upgrade the sub, because that will make an equally big difference.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #14 of 24 Old 05-16-2020, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blynch1985 View Post
Significant other likes white more than black for this location. That plus the metal grills and built in mount, the outsider IIs are making a really good argument.

If I do three of them for the front, L/R would be best wall mounted at ear height vertically and the center mounted close to the ceiling horizontally?

I definitely don't need metal protection for the surrounds, best to stick with outsiders still for surrounds or go with something else?

If I add a sub, should I still use my cheap sub and place one on each side of the couch, or is the BIC not worth using with a better sub in place(receiver has two sub outs but no independent calibration)?
You could mount the center sideways. This would allow you the freedom to tilt it up or down as much as you need to.

As for sound quality, Your towers have more presence and better dynamics, but the RSL will have better detail and clarity so they will sound better. Along providing bass, subs add more depth to the sound which is where the Bic H-100 in such a large space will run into issues. You'd need dual HSU VTF-3's, but those alone would put you over budget.
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post #15 of 24 Old 05-17-2020, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blynch1985 View Post
Significant other likes white more than black for this location. That plus the metal grills and built in mount, the outsider IIs are making a really good argument.

If I do three of them for the front, L/R would be best wall mounted at ear height vertically and the center mounted close to the ceiling horizontally?

I definitely don't need metal protection for the surrounds, best to stick with outsiders still for surrounds or go with something else?

If I add a sub, should I still use my cheap sub and place one on each side of the couch, or is the BIC not worth using with a better sub in place(receiver has two sub outs but no independent calibration)?
Yes, this speaker should work very well horizontally or vertically.

Not sure you'd be saving much by going with different sorrounds unless you can use your current towers in that role.

$100/speaker including wall mounts is not much though my daughter has the smaller version of these and they would indeed save you some money for surround use.

https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...te-pair/1.html

If you are happy with how your current sub sounds for your "not super high end" needs and want to gain 6db in headroom simply add another for more enveloping bass across a larger area.

https://www.ebay.com/p/94221061?iid=...xoCynsQAvD_BwE

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post #16 of 24 Old 05-17-2020, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Leaning towards just doing 5 of the outsiders. I will probably wait to see if they have a discount for memorial day.
Also when I do upgrade the sub I think I would at least get Rhytmic LV12 or HSU VTF2 and ideally splurge for the VTF3 MK5 or similar.
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I will probably wait to see if they have a discount for memorial day.
fwiw, I can't remember RSL *ever* having any holiday sales. Not even for Black Friday. I think the only times I've ever seen them discount their speakers was when a current model was being discontinued ahead of a new one. Or an occasional B-stock sale.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #18 of 24 Old 05-18-2020, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by blynch1985 View Post
Leaning towards just doing 5 of the outsiders. I will probably wait to see if they have a discount for memorial day.
Also when I do upgrade the sub I think I would at least get Rhytmic LV12 or HSU VTF2 and ideally splurge for the VTF3 MK5 or similar.
Any of those would be a massive upgrade, no question.

And like Zorba said, I don't recall the Outsiders ever being discounted from their amazing $100/speaker price.

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post #19 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the recs, I went ahead and ordered 6 Outsider IIs and some cl2 14 gauge monoprice speaker wire.
I was surprised to not have to pay any sales tax, seems like a lot of places are charging even out of state now. I asked if they had an open box single speaker and they said no but they offered me a discount on the extra speaker. So with no sales tax and free shipping paid $559. A lot less than I was expecting to pay on speakers, so looks like a sub upgrade is coming soon.
Will probably install these first before deciding which sub to upgrade to.

The surrounds will be pretty close to the listening position, would you mount them vertically on the side walls about a foot above ear level? And which direction to point them, toed in at the listening position?
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post #20 of 24 Old 05-20-2020, 09:34 AM
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Thanks for all the recs, I went ahead and ordered 6 Outsider IIs and some cl2 14 gauge monoprice speaker wire.
I was surprised to not have to pay any sales tax, seems like a lot of places are charging even out of state now. I asked if they had an open box single speaker and they said no but they offered me a discount on the extra speaker. So with no sales tax and free shipping paid $559. A lot less than I was expecting to pay on speakers, so looks like a sub upgrade is coming soon.
Will probably install these first before deciding which sub to upgrade to.

The surrounds will be pretty close to the listening position, would you mount them vertically on the side walls about a foot above ear level? And which direction to point them, toed in at the listening position?
Excellent, looking forward to your impressions.

I believe you said your couch is up against the back wall as mine is.

I have my surrounds at ear height when standing, above the end tables, pointing towards the middle of the TV 15 feet away and it works well.
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post #21 of 24 Old 05-22-2020, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Getting ready to mount my .2 Atmos speakers, per Dolby spec with my ceiling height they should be 1-2' in front of listening position (65*-80*) and even with front speakers. And I would aim the teeters to the listener. Going even with the fronts would put the left Atmos right up against the side wall, is this fine or should I place the Atmos speakers closer together to get aware from the left side wall, if so how much?
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post #22 of 24 Old 05-23-2020, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by blynch1985 View Post
Getting ready to mount my .2 Atmos speakers, per Dolby spec with my ceiling height they should be 1-2' in front of listening position (65*-80*) and even with front speakers. And I would aim the teeters to the listener. Going even with the fronts would put the left Atmos right up against the side wall, is this fine or should I place the Atmos speakers closer together to get aware from the left side wall, if so how much?
Many people place these horizontally in their eaves outside where the roof overhang meets the wall, so essentially mounted in a corner so you might be OK with placement in a corner.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #23 of 24 Old 05-23-2020, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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To clarify, the 2 Atmos are going to be in ceiling MICCA M-8C speakers
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post #24 of 24 Old 05-23-2020, 08:58 AM
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To clarify, the 2 Atmos are going to be in ceiling MICCA M-8C speakers
From Crutchfield:

"We recommend installing in-ceiling speakers at least 18-24 inches away from an adjacent wall."

Geoff A. J., California
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