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post #1 of 37 Old 05-22-2020, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Question Upgrading from Infinity Primus 360

Hi!
I have 2 Primus 360 (front) and 2 Infinity Reference 1i (back) connected to a Marantz SR5013. The 360s date from 2011, I got them from Amazon for €130 each. The 1i date from 1997 but there’s no sign of disintegrating foam.
For my 65th birthday I was thinking of upgrading the speakers, but as I am really pleased with the sound of my Infinities, and given the impossibilty of listening to speakers (not only due to Covid19, but where I live there are no retailers with decent facilities), I am concerned that speakers within my budget (about €2500) might not be much better than my Primus. I listen mostly to classical music but I do enjoy quality sound when watching movies.
Would a pair of Revel f206 or Monitor Audio Silver 500 be significantly better? Or is the fact that I don’t hear obvious faults with my current setup a sign that my hearing isn’t good enough appreciate really good equipment?
I’ve been pondering this for weeks now an can’t make a decision. Any thoughts and suggestions would be much appreciated.
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post #2 of 37 Old 05-22-2020, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by StefaanE View Post
Hi!
I have 2 Primus 360 (front) and 2 Infinity Reference 1i (back) connected to a Marantz SR5013. The 360s date from 2011, I got them from Amazon for €130 each. The 1i date from 1997 but there’s no sign of disintegrating foam.
For my 65th birthday I was thinking of upgrading the speakers, but as I am really pleased with the sound of my Infinities, and given the impossibilty of listening to speakers (not only due to Covid19, but where I live there are no retailers with decent facilities), I am concerned that speakers within my budget (about €2500) might not be much better than my Primus. I listen mostly to classical music but I do enjoy quality sound when watching movies.
Would a pair of Revel f206 or Monitor Audio Silver 500 be significantly better? Or is the fact that I don’t hear obvious faults with my current setup a sign that my hearing isn’t good enough appreciate really good equipment?
I’ve been pondering this for weeks now an can’t make a decision. Any thoughts and suggestions would be much appreciated.
If you're looking to improve HT/TV performance, I'd add a center speaker and subwoofer if you don't have one, or if you have a so-so one.

If you're looking to improve 2 channel MUSIC performance, you definitely can do better than the Primus 360 with your budget. Are you in the UK?
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #3 of 37 Old 05-22-2020, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StefaanE View Post
Hi!

I have 2 Primus 360 (front) and 2 Infinity Reference 1i (back) connected to a Marantz SR5013. The 360s date from 2011, I got them from Amazon for €130 each. The 1i date from 1997 but there’s no sign of disintegrating foam.

For my 65th birthday I was thinking of upgrading the speakers, but as I am really pleased with the sound of my Infinities, and given the impossibilty of listening to speakers (not only due to Covid19, but where I live there are no retailers with decent facilities), I am concerned that speakers within my budget (about €2500) might not be much better than my Primus. I listen mostly to classical music but I do enjoy quality sound when watching movies.

Would a pair of Revel f206 or Monitor Audio Silver 500 be significantly better? Or is the fact that I don’t hear obvious faults with my current setup a sign that my hearing isn’t good enough appreciate really good equipment?

I’ve been pondering this for weeks now an can’t make a decision. Any thoughts and suggestions would be much appreciated.
There is a Ravel thread here. There are many knowledgeable people there.

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post #4 of 37 Old 05-23-2020, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
If you're looking to improve HT/TV performance, I'd add a center speaker and subwoofer if you don't have one, or if you have a so-so one.

If you're looking to improve 2 channel MUSIC performance, you definitely can do better than the Primus 360 with your budget. Are you in the UK?
Hi, thanks for the reply. I live in Luxembourg, and as I said, there aren’t many opportunities to go and listen to speakers such as Revel and Monitor Audio. Our local electronics chain has a small selection of Dali, KEF and Klipsch speakers in their catalogue, but they can be ordered, not listened to. I’m rather limited by the arrangement of my living room, so the speakers will end up close to the wall, making me rather sceptical about bass-reflex ports in the back.
Plus somehow, the Dali’s don’t appeal to me —they’re all 2 or 2.5-way speakers and that feels like a step back. The Klipsch have a reputation for brashness, and the KEF Q550 (which is closed), has a price tag that makes me fear it’s not much better than my 360s. Maybe I should order from one of the online shops that deliver to Luxembourg, but Amazon’s speaker selection is not great (most speakers are sold and shipped by German retailers), and I have no experience with Dutch shops such as Doublepoint or iEar. On eBay, there’s a nice pair of Revel f206 on offer from a shop (Elite Audio from Anstruther) in the UK, but if they end up having problems, it’s real pain in the neck to ship heavy items back to Blighty, or anywhere for that matter.
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post #5 of 37 Old 05-23-2020, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by StefaanE View Post
Hi, thanks for the reply. I live in Luxembourg, and as I said, there aren’t many opportunities to go and listen to speakers such as Revel and Monitor Audio. Our local electronics chain has a small selection of Dali, KEF and Klipsch speakers in their catalogue, but they can be ordered, not listened to. I’m rather limited by the arrangement of my living room, so the speakers will end up close to the wall, making me rather sceptical about bass-reflex ports in the back.
Plus somehow, the Dali’s don’t appeal to me —they’re all 2 or 2.5-way speakers and that feels like a step back. The Klipsch have a reputation for brashness, and the KEF Q550 (which is closed), has a price tag that makes me fear it’s not much better than my 360s. Maybe I should order from one of the online shops that deliver to Luxembourg, but Amazon’s speaker selection is not great (most speakers are sold and shipped by German retailers), and I have no experience with Dutch shops such as Doublepoint or iEar. On eBay, there’s a nice pair of Revel f206 on offer from a shop (Elite Audio from Anstruther) in the UK, but if they end up having problems, it’s real pain in the neck to ship heavy items back to Blighty, or anywhere for that matter.
Looks like there is one Wharfedale distributor in Luxembourg. I would contact them and see if they would allow you to come hear their speakers.
https://mikadistri.nl/wharfedale/

I would recommend listening to the Wharfedale Diamond and Evo series. They do have 3-way models, both towers (Diamond & Evo lines) and bookshelves (Evo 4.2) you could look at, and both of these model lines are not rear-ported but DOWN-ported which makes placement close to a wall easier. The Evo has an AMT tweeter which provides amazing treble extension and detail, but with zero harshness or shrillness unlike many horns and metal dome tweeters.

These would be a big contrast from Klipsch and Infinity Primus---Wharfedale is known for full lush mids, very musical and warm, especially good with classical and jazz. They are the polar opposite of Klipsch. Amazon's UK site carries the Evos as does Amazon.de --- check and see what kind of return options they offer if you are unable to find a local dealer for them. Here are some pro reviews:

https://www.whathifi.com/us/reviews/wharfedale-evo-44
https://7review.com/wharfedale-evo4-2-review/

They also have a very interesting large 3-way monitor with retro looks, the Linton...but these unfortunately are rear-ported:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/...ge-loudspeaker
https://www.whathifi.com/us/reviews/wharfedale-linton
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post #6 of 37 Old 05-23-2020, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Zorba922, thanks for suggesting Wharfedale -- one of the iconic brands of my youth. Unfortunately, the only floor-stander Amazon.de has available is the D.330, which I have a hard time believing to be much better than my P360s. The Mika people are distributors, unfortunately, and don't sell to the public. I've located a dealer for KEF in Luxembourg City (Cinemotion, they don't carry Wharfedale or B&W, unfortunately, but rather a few brands that mean very little to me, such as Amphion, JM Reynaud, Pylon Audio and Triangle) so I will give them a call to see if they have reasonable demonstration facilities. Still, they're more than an hour's drive from my place. They also have Canton Reference speakers, but at a price outside my budget (the cheapest, Reference 8K, go for €4000 a pair).
It's all rather dispiriting, and if it's to buy what happens to be available, I'd rather stick with my current setup.
Anyway, many thanks for you help as none of family or friends are remotely interested in this type of sound reproduction -- they're quite happy with soundbars and HomePods.
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post #7 of 37 Old 05-23-2020, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StefaanE View Post
Zorba922, thanks for suggesting Wharfedale -- one of the iconic brands of my youth. Unfortunately, the only floor-stander Amazon.de has available is the D.330, which I have a hard time believing to be much better than my P360s. The Mika people are distributors, unfortunately, and don't sell to the public. I've located a dealer for KEF in Luxembourg City (Cinemotion, they don't carry Wharfedale or B&W, unfortunately, but rather a few brands that mean very little to me, such as Amphion, JM Reynaud, Pylon Audio and Triangle) so I will give them a call to see if they have reasonable demonstration facilities. Still, they're more than an hour's drive from my place. They also have Canton Reference speakers, but at a price outside my budget (the cheapest, Reference 8K, go for €4000 a pair).

It's all rather dispiriting, and if it's to buy what happens to be available, I'd rather stick with my current setup.

Anyway, many thanks for you help as none of family or friends are remotely interested in this type of sound reproduction -- they're quite happy with soundbars and HomePods.
With the rise of internet sellers with much lower cost structure, most retail stores stop carrying name brand speakers. People just audition them there and then buy on the internet. So they often carry I known brands that are not easily available on the internet.

So sad. In the US, many online shops offer generous returns, though.

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post #8 of 37 Old 05-23-2020, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by StefaanE View Post
Zorba922, thanks for suggesting Wharfedale -- one of the iconic brands of my youth. Unfortunately, the only floor-stander Amazon.de has available is the D.330
Amazon.co.uk does deliver to Luxembourg, free shipping according to their website:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wharfedale-...dp/B07ZJMMDJ6/
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post #9 of 37 Old 05-23-2020, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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With the rise of internet sellers with much lower cost structure, most retail stores stop carrying name brand speakers. People just audition them there and then buy on the internet. So they often carry I known brands that are not easily available on the internet.

So sad. In the US, many online shops offer generous returns, though.
The online stores I've visited have the standard EU return policies -- two weeks to let them know you want to return the merchandise, and then another 14 days to get the stuff back to them at your cost. A full refund as long as they are pristine, which with a high-gloss black finish might rule out testing the speakers in place . But sending them back is a real PITA when you live in the sticks like I do (I've got nearly a hours drive to the nearest UPS or DHL facility).
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Yes, the Revel would be a real big step up over the Primus series
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post #11 of 37 Old 05-23-2020, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Amazon.co.uk does deliver to Luxembourg, free shipping according to their website:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wharfedale-...dp/B07ZJMMDJ6/
They look really nice, but I fear I'd have to buy them "sound unheard" as they're not available in Luxembourg. I think I'll try to listen to a couple of KEF speakers if Cinemotion in the south of the country has them on display. Again, many thanks for your help and suggestions, it's much appreciated.
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post #12 of 37 Old 05-23-2020, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, the Revel would be a real big step up over the Primus series
Thanks for the confirmation! I did suspect so given their family relationship, but it's a leap into the unknown when buying speakers without the opportunity to hear them. But given the impact of the room, it's always a bit of a gamble, isn't it. I've put some pictures of my current setup on the sticky thread in the forum, and the limitations imposed by my room and furniture would be a challenge for almost any set of speakers, I guess.
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post #13 of 37 Old 05-23-2020, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by StefaanE View Post
Hi, thanks for the reply. I live in Luxembourg, and as I said, there aren’t many opportunities to go and listen to speakers such as Revel and Monitor Audio. Our local electronics chain has a small selection of Dali, KEF and Klipsch speakers in their catalogue, but they can be ordered, not listened to. I’m rather limited by the arrangement of my living room, so the speakers will end up close to the wall, making me rather sceptical about bass-reflex ports in the back.
Plus somehow, the Dali’s don’t appeal to me —they’re all 2 or 2.5-way speakers and that feels like a step back. The Klipsch have a reputation for brashness, and the KEF Q550 (which is closed), has a price tag that makes me fear it’s not much better than my 360s. Maybe I should order from one of the online shops that deliver to Luxembourg, but Amazon’s speaker selection is not great (most speakers are sold and shipped by German retailers), and I have no experience with Dutch shops such as Doublepoint or iEar. On eBay, there’s a nice pair of Revel f206 on offer from a shop (Elite Audio from Anstruther) in the UK, but if they end up having problems, it’s real pain in the neck to ship heavy items back to Blighty, or anywhere for that matter.
FWIW..... I have the Infinity p363s as well as KEF q100s and q150s. I liked both kefs over the infinities. I know none of these are the exact same models you have and are looking at, but my understanding was that the 360 - 363s were not vastly different (although I could be wrong). The kefs are just smoother with better soundstage and detail.
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post #14 of 37 Old 05-23-2020, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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FWIW..... I have the Infinity p363s as well as KEF q100s and q150s. I liked both kefs over the infinities. I know none of these are the exact same models you have and are looking at, but my understanding was that the 360 - 363s were not vastly different (although I could be wrong). The kefs are just smoother with better soundstage and detail.
That’s good to know, as I hope to be able to listen to the KEF Q950, which are well within my budget. The Luxemburgish bricks & mortar shop has the exact same price as the two online shops that carry it, so if they’re convincing, there’s no reason not to take them home immediately.
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While I did not enjoy the Kef R900 or LS50, a LOT of people really like them. Since the actual store has them at the same price as online stores is a bonus. You may be able to do some negotiations for centre and surround channels.


German company Canton is basically Germany's Bowers and Wilkins. They are extremely well-made and are considered very neutral. There are a number of front-ported speakers from them, IIRC.


The down-ported Wharfedales may be good for your room, as you don't have much room for your speakers. I would do what I can to bring them out into the room a bit - at lease bring the baffle forward of your entertainment stand.


Whatever speakers you end up getting (if any), I would suggest a subwoofer or two for your room. In the USA and, to a lesser extent, Canada, we have access to a number of subwoofer-specific companies. For your room, I would suggest a pair of 12" ported or sealed subs. In Europe, your choices are limited.
If Polk or Klipsch are available, the Polk HTS 12: https://www.amazon.de/Polk-HTS-12-Su...rds=hts&sr=8-3 and the Klipsch R112-SW https://www.amazon.de/Klipsch-R-112S...0321274&sr=8-3 would be your best bet from Amazon.de.


BK Electronics in the UK ships throughout the EU, and probably build the best subwoofers in Europe. A pair of these: http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofe...20P12-300SB_PR would work beautifully in your room, once they can get their supply chain in order post-COVID.


As an aside, the shop that sells "Amphion, JM Reynaud, Pylon Audio and Triangle" sounds like a VERY nice shop. All those companies make some extraordinary speakers.
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post #16 of 37 Old 05-24-2020, 05:41 AM
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They look really nice, but I fear I'd have to buy them "sound unheard" as they're not available in Luxembourg. I think I'll try to listen to a couple of KEF speakers if Cinemotion in the south of the country has them on display. Again, many thanks for your help and suggestions, it's much appreciated.
Have you considered stand mount speakers with a good sub? You could get a very nice pair of high resolution speakers well within budget with a nice B&K sub. Canton Vento Reference would be a significant improvement from the Infinity's.
https://www.amazon.de/Canton-Referen...s%2C230&sr=8-4
http://www.bkelec.com/
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post #17 of 37 Old 05-24-2020, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Have you considered stand mount speakers with a good sub? You could get a very nice pair of high resolution speakers well within budget with a nice B&K sub. Canton Vento Reference would be a significant improvement from the Infinity's.
https://www.amazon.de/Canton-Referen...s%2C230&sr=8-4
http://www.bkelec.com/
Do you mean a sub from B.K. Electronics? They look nice and good value for money. I do have a problem with the set-up of my living room; it’s not easy to find a location for the sub (see the pictures in the sticky thread).
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The Canton Vento 886 tower would provide more bass output and for music no sub really needed. For Home Theater sub is always recommended.

Comes in a few nice finishes.
https://www.amazon.de/Canton-03633-S...ct_top?ie=UTF8
https://www.amazon.de/Canton-03634-S...331469&sr=8-11
https://www.amazon.de/Canton-03635-V...331469&sr=8-33
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post #19 of 37 Old 05-24-2020, 09:16 AM
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Do you mean a sub from B.K. Electronics? They look nice and good value for money. I do have a problem with the set-up of my living room; it’s not easy to find a location for the sub (see the pictures in the sticky thread).
Tower speakers (based on room pics) are not a good fit for you. You have one stuck in a corner being partially blocked by the fireplace and the other sandwiched between two cabinets. Wall mount the TV and set 2 Bookshelf speakers on top of the cabinet and as far forward as possible.
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Tower speakers (based on room pics) are not a good fit for you. You have one stuck in a corner being partially blocked by the fireplace and the other sandwiched between two cabinets. Wall mount the TV and set 2 Bookshelf speakers on top of the cabinet and as far forward as possible.
@StefaanE

Just found your photos and have to say, I agree 100% with pase22. I know your 360s are front ported, but those two front towers are still severely handicapped by their positioning...the least you can do is pull them forward, at least 6-12 inches away from the wall. If you're not able to raise your TV using a wall-mount, your best bet is to get a pair of decent sealed cabinet or front ported bookshelf speakers with at least 6.5" woofers and put them ON TOP of those towers or (better) wall mount the two bookshelves , so at least the one on the right can fire OVER the top of that black curved cabinet you have next to the right corner which is blocking at least half of the right tower.

Bookshelf speakers will be fine as long as you have a decent subwoofer, and if you can wall mount them would allow you much better positioning---and speaker positioning is absolutely crucial. You could spend $10,000 on speakers but if they are poorly positioned you can expect to get maybe $500 worth of performance out of them.
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post #21 of 37 Old 05-24-2020, 10:30 AM
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Hi!
I have 2 Primus 360 (front) and 2 Infinity Reference 1i (back) connected to a Marantz SR5013. The 360s date from 2011, I got them from Amazon for €130 each. The 1i date from 1997 but there’s no sign of disintegrating foam.
For my 65th birthday I was thinking of upgrading the speakers, but as I am really pleased with the sound of my Infinities, and given the impossibilty of listening to speakers (not only due to Covid19, but where I live there are no retailers with decent facilities), I am concerned that speakers within my budget (about €2500) might not be much better than my Primus. I listen mostly to classical music but I do enjoy quality sound when watching movies.
Would a pair of Revel f206 or Monitor Audio Silver 500 be significantly better? Or is the fact that I don’t hear obvious faults with my current setup a sign that my hearing isn’t good enough appreciate really good equipment?
I’ve been pondering this for weeks now an can’t make a decision. Any thoughts and suggestions would be much appreciated.
If you are satisfied with the sound then that is enough. Your not hearing faults with your setup maybe because you haven't heard a decently setup home theater. You can always throw money at a theoretical problem, but how far are you willing to go in terms of spending? It is not that better speakers won't sound better, but the principal speaker in a home theater is the center speaker, which if you don't have one, I would suggest that you get a Primus version of it as well as a sub or two. I would suggest upgrading a piece at a time, starting with the center speaker and see how much better your system will sound. Then there is the layout of your speakers and the geometry of your room which will dictate what you can and can't do. Few people have a perfectly set up system, meaning that although it may not be perfectly setup by the book, it still sounds great.
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post #22 of 37 Old 05-24-2020, 10:40 AM
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Do you mean a sub from B.K. Electronics? They look nice and good value for money. I do have a problem with the set-up of my living room; it’s not easy to find a location for the sub (see the pictures in the sticky thread).
I just noticed your TV is sitting on top of 2 cabinets pushed together. WAF will likely veto, but if you removed one cabinet, set the speakers closer together and a few inches from the back, you'll likely hear an improvement in sound just from that simple modification.
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post #23 of 37 Old 05-24-2020, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I just noticed your TV is sitting on top of 2 cabinets pushed together. WAF will likely veto, but if you removed one cabinet, set the speakers closer together and a few inches from the back, you'll likely hear an improvement in sound just from that simple modification.
Actually, I don’t have a WAF problem, she’s always happy to start redecorating, rearranging and improving. She did suggest putting the TV on a single cabinet when I mentioned the Revels. Those 3 cabinets plus two more in the dining room contain my LPs. I could relocate the LPs to the office, though, there are some cabinets there full of 20 year old computer manuals.
It’s me who is reluctant to change a setup I’m comfortable with...
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post #24 of 37 Old 05-24-2020, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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@StefaanE

....that black curved cabinet you have next to the right corner which is blocking at least half of the right tower. ...
It’s a Danish stove/fireplace, and actually pretty good for making pizzas.
I’m always scared it will fry the speaker and the TV, but even when the stove is hot, they stay cool.
I’m seriously considering rearranging the room, given all the advice I’ve got.
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post #25 of 37 Old 05-24-2020, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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If you are satisfied with the sound then that is enough.
Thank you!
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post #26 of 37 Old 05-24-2020, 12:34 PM
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I’m seriously considering rearranging the room, given all the advice I’ve got.
Good idea. Here's some good speaker positioning info:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...ker-placement/

For HT:
https://www.crutchfield.com/learn/le...placement.html

For stereo music:
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-I6kUWh...onHTspeak.html
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #27 of 37 Old 05-24-2020, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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As an aside, the shop that sells "Amphion, JM Reynaud, Pylon Audio and Triangle" sounds like a VERY nice shop. All those companies make some extraordinary speakers.
Thanks for the thumbs up. I will definitely pay them a visit (as we’re restricted to Luxembourg thanks to Covid, and Luxembourg isn’t a big country, I feel lucky to have found them). They also have a Marantz SA8005 in stock, and as I was thinking of replacing my TEAC with an SACD player, I have more than one reason to go and see them.
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post #28 of 37 Old 05-25-2020, 03:19 AM
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Do you mean a sub from B.K. Electronics? They look nice and good value for money. I do have a problem with the set-up of my living room; it’s not easy to find a location for the sub (see the pictures in the sticky thread).
Where are the Pics?

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post #29 of 37 Old 05-25-2020, 04:33 AM
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Where are the Pics?

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https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post59698328

Post 6521
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post #30 of 37 Old 05-25-2020, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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You beat me to it. Thanks!
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