Quick Bookshelf Crossover Question ... - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 11 Old 05-27-2020, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick Bookshelf Crossover Question ...

So I have a real simple setup ATM ...

Source is currently just a PC with good soundcard, mini-jack out to L-R RCA ins on a very old but nice Denon Integrated (AVR-3030).

From there I run out to the Sub leveraging the subs x-over via the Denon's Mono out (not LFE, but whatever).

Then I run RCA's from Denon Main Pre-Outs to my Adcom GFA-555, and from there, to my Martin Logan LX-16 bookshelves.

I use Denon Amp only to power a center channel I use occasionally for games or movies on the PC. Original Pro Logic FTW lol ... Really it's mostly a music rig for tunes while I 'compute'.

Question ... given this setup ... what's the best way to get a high-pass filter onto the Logan's so I can cross 'em over around 80Hz? Preferably cheaply but commensurate with the overall quality of the system, which I think sounds pretty damn solid

TIA, AVS'ers. First Time, Long Time ... you know the drill
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post #2 of 11 Old 05-28-2020, 06:38 AM
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Since your source is a PC, the easiest thing to do is use a sound card for volume control and crossover. That would require the sound card to have multichannel outputs. Most do these days. If yours doesn't, you can buy a new one for about $40. Taking the Denon out of the chain may improve sound quality as well.
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post #3 of 11 Old 05-28-2020, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Since your source is a PC, the easiest thing to do is use a sound card for volume control and crossover. That would require the sound card to have multichannel outputs. Most do these days. If yours doesn't, you can buy a new one for about $40. Taking the Denon out of the chain may improve sound quality as well.
Thanks Red!

I did consider that simple route, and my mobo's sound card does have 5.1 support. However, and extremely annoyingly, when in 5.1 mode, sound is only output through the subwoofer channel when the source is in fact a 5.1 source like Dolby Digital. It doesn't break out a sub signal when the source is Spotify Premium.

I'm disinclined to add a PCI-Ex sound card as I picked this fairly expensive motherboard (in the $300 range) in part for the high-quality onboard sound system. It actually does sound quite good, just ... lacks that key feature as far as I can tell.

RE: the Denon I am in the process of adding my phonograph, waiting on a cartridge, so I need it as a switching source. And I actually prefer the SQ with the preamp in the chain even though I'm running it flat.

I'd consider some outboard unit that's a DAC with a High and Low Pass Filter, with a Phono Preamp (but don't really want another full-on receiver). You know of anything like that?
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post #4 of 11 Old 05-28-2020, 03:23 PM
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post #5 of 11 Old 05-28-2020, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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minidsp-2x4
Okay that is freaking cool! That would definitely do it.

BUT ... I don't where I'd put it where it wouldn't look kinda janky, what with the cables running out of both the front and the back of the thing.

Is there something very much like it, but all the connections are on the traditional 'back of the unit' type of deal?

Thanks for your input mate ...
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post #6 of 11 Old 05-29-2020, 06:35 AM
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I was going to suggest the same thing, with the caveat that you have to be a little bit techy to configure it. But I doubt you'll find something cheaper.

Another option is a PA crossover:
https://www.sweetwater.com/c445--PA_Crossovers

In the audiophile world, external analog crossovers are kind of rare these days. The only current offering I know of that's reasonably priced is the Marchand Electronics XM46SB for $295. But it's also an ugly box with inputs & outputs on opposites sides, that you'd want to hide away. Marchand makes units in nicer boxes that look more presentable on a rack, but they are $800-1000.

Two discontinued options are the Bryston 10B-Sub and Outlaw ICBM. Every once in a while, I see one on the used market. The Bryston commands high prices, but the Outlaw might be reasonable if you can find one.

If it were me, I'd probably get rid of the Denon and Adcom and replace them with a good quality used AVR. Old 5.1 models that predated HDMI are cheap as chips. They will have a DAC as well, so you can run digital out from your sound card. Sound quality with old AVRs is a bit of a crap shoot, so you'd have to do your research. The reason why I like this option is that it simplifies the signal path.

Finally, I guess I should have asked this from the beginning, but what's your goal? Running stand mounted speakers full range and using subwoofer(s) to fill in the bottom end is a valid option. Are you trying to offload bass from the MLs so that you can play the system louder? Or just trying to improve the blend between the speakers and sub? Personally, I've found that optimizing the placement of the speakers and subs can make a huge difference in how seamlessly they blend, more than any electronics. I don't know how much flexibility you have in placement and how much effort you've put into it, but definitely make sure you've exhausted all your options there.

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post #7 of 11 Old 05-29-2020, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Red MC View Post
I was going to suggest the same thing, with the caveat that you have to be a little bit techy to configure it. But I doubt you'll find something cheaper.

Another option is a PA crossover:
https://www.sweetwater.com/c445--PA_Crossovers

In the audiophile world, external analog crossovers are kind of rare these days. The only current offering I know of that's reasonably priced is the Marchand Electronics XM46SB for $295. But it's also an ugly box with inputs & outputs on opposites sides, that you'd want to hide away. Marchand makes units in nicer boxes that look more presentable on a rack, but they are $800-1000.

Two discontinued options are the Bryston 10B-Sub and Outlaw ICBM. Every once in a while, I see one on the used market. The Bryston commands high prices, but the Outlaw might be reasonable if you can find one.

If it were me, I'd probably get rid of the Denon and Adcom and replace them with a good quality used AVR. Old 5.1 models that predated HDMI are cheap as chips. They will have a DAC as well, so you can run digital out from your sound card. Sound quality with old AVRs is a bit of a crap shoot, so you'd have to do your research. The reason why I like this option is that it simplifies the signal path.

Finally, I guess I should have asked this from the beginning, but what's your goal? Running stand mounted speakers full range and using subwoofer(s) to fill in the bottom end is a valid option. Are you trying to offload bass from the MLs so that you can play the system louder? Or just trying to improve the blend between the speakers and sub? Personally, I've found that optimizing the placement of the speakers and subs can make a huge difference in how seamlessly they blend, more than any electronics. I don't know how much flexibility you have in placement and how much effort you've put into it, but definitely make sure you've exhausted all your options there.
Yes, I want to improve balance, and to be able to play it louder, both

Basically I want to be able play around with crossover points and slopes if possible, a para EQ would be cool, etc. Techie doesn't bother me, I'm a programmer by trade. I just want to tool around with the setup. I do a have a sub, nothing special just a JBL 10" with 250W rms. Actually blends real nice, but I plan to upgrade it at some point.

My reticence about getting such a receiver as you mention is that, really, this AVC-3030 is a monster AFA consumer-grade AV components go, at least afa the power section on the three front channels. It's Made in Japan, 33lbs, Class A, with a Torroidal Transformer, 2*15,000ufd caps, and 120 watt Sanken large cased transistors. 110W * 3 into 8 Ohms at full range with .03 THD. Preamp has a dead silent noise floor. No joke, it's a NICE unit.

However, using it as the preamp only, and the Adcom for power ... still sounds noticeably better than using the Denon alone.

Thus, I feel like I'd have to drop a significant amount of coin even for an old receiver to match this sound quality. To get a high pass filter, primarily? I'm thinking probably not for this setup

I'm totally not averse using the Toslink from the PC and using a digital processor as long as it sounds good and doesn't add noise or otherwise degrade things. I'd love the DSP linked above, that's PERFECT for me ... I just don't like the 'form factor' you might say.

TBH I'm considering just upgrading to floorstanders so I don't have to worry about it. The Monitor Audio Silver 300's are seriously calling me ATM

Thanks again!
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post #8 of 11 Old 05-30-2020, 06:37 AM
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Ah. If you're a software guy and want to experiment, a miniDSP is a great choice. The 4x10 HD looks perfect for you:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/min...inidsp-4x10-hd

The rackmount ears are removable, so hopefully that would satisfy your cosmetic requirements.

The 4x10 is a bit overkill for your needs. For instance, you could go digital in/analog out and use it as your preamp. But you can certainly use it for 2ch analog in, 3ch analog out (w/sub) to implement the crossover, mixdown, and parametric EQ.

While you're at it, I suggest adding the UMIK-1 microphone and learning how to measure with Room EQ Wizard. REW can even calculate parametric EQ settings for you, which can be uploaded to the miniDSP.
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post #9 of 11 Old 05-30-2020, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvaljalo View Post
Question ... given this setup ... what's the best way to get a high-pass filter onto the Logan's so I can cross 'em over around 80Hz? Preferably cheaply but commensurate with the overall quality of the system, which I think sounds pretty damn solid
Here is one simple and inexpensive option:
https://www.amazon.com/FMOD-Crossove.../dp/B0006N41JW

Not sure about quality, but cheap enough to try, I suppose.
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post #10 of 11 Old 05-31-2020, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Red MC View Post
Ah. If you're a software guy and want to experiment, a miniDSP is a great choice. The 4x10 HD looks perfect for you:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/min...inidsp-4x10-hd

The rackmount ears are removable, so hopefully that would satisfy your cosmetic requirements.

The 4x10 is a bit overkill for your needs. For instance, you could go digital in/analog out and use it as your preamp. But you can certainly use it for 2ch analog in, 3ch analog out (w/sub) to implement the crossover, mixdown, and parametric EQ.

While you're at it, I suggest adding the UMIK-1 microphone and learning how to measure with Room EQ Wizard. REW can even calculate parametric EQ settings for you, which can be uploaded to the miniDSP.
$499 ... cough. Yeah, that has the form factor, but ... ouch. I think I'll grab the $99 one and see how it works, I can probably find some way to rig up somewhere that it's not visible.

Either that, or some bigger speakers so I don't even have to worry about it. Believe it or not the LX16 + Sub is ALMOST as loud as I'd ever want it, and this isn't a small room. Also considering the 35XT's (which are at a nice price on Crutchfield ATM) to get the bigger box and driver, that might get me to where I want to volume-wise, even full range. And I'm still really coveting the Monitor Audio Silver 300's.

Thanks for all your help!
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post #11 of 11 Old 06-01-2020, 06:32 AM
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One of these is a simple and inexpensive analog option. You can choose 2 high pass frequencies, say 80 and 100 Hz for example.


http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/...ss-filter.html
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