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post #31 of 128 Old 06-25-2020, 05:34 PM
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There is a timing difference between the Left/Right and the Center related to their relative positions. Move the Left/Right forward more in the plain of the Center. Or ... though more difficult... find a way to move the Center back in line with the Left/Right Speakers.

To test whether placement is really the issue pull all the Front Speakers (L/C/R) about 1 or 2 meters into the room and place them on the same plain, that is with the front faces in a Straight line.

Now certainly this is not functionally practical, but it is just a test to see if the sound clears up. If it does, then you absolutely have a Placement problem that you need to work on.

Next, make sure a Crossover is applied to the Center Speaker. That is, if the Front/Sub crossover at 80hz, then the Center should also crossover at 80hz. If there is no crossover on the Center Speaker, it will tend to have a husky bassy drone that does nothing for clear dialog.

As I'm sure others have said, angle the Center up slightly so it is aimed more at ear level at the Prime Seating location.

MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that all the Front Three Speakers are wired the same. That in every case the Amp(Red+) goes to the Speaker(Red+). Nothing will suck the life out of a set of speakers like one of them being wired backwards.

Just a few thoughts.

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post #32 of 128 Old 06-25-2020, 11:30 PM
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Turn every speaker except center off and see what happens.

Maybe it's just the movie is in the wrong?
Can you give an example where dialogue causes problem?

Last edited by aats; 06-26-2020 at 01:32 AM.
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post #33 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 02:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your responses everyone. So any three way center channel speaker will be a significant, noticeable improvement? The one easiest for me to purchase right now would be Monitor Audio Silver C350, unless that one is considered poor?

I'm really hoping to get some clear dialogue, been planning to become a movie buff for some time, a bit frustrating that it is so hard.
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post #34 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 05:15 AM
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Try using only central channel, with anything else turned off.
Then try using one of the other speakers as center in the same config
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post #35 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 05:15 AM
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The best thing you can do is to measure your frequency response of the center speaker at your seating position. Get a UMIK-1, download REW and take measurements. Measure with both EQ on and off to see what is going on. Or just pick up a receiver with Audyssey XT32. For example something like a Denon X3500 which is back in stock at several places for very reasonable price (see deals forum). Then get the Audyssey app for $20 and you can eq the center to frequency response as needed. With the Audyssey app you will see the frequency response if you aren’t into measuring with a pc. Without seeing the frequency response of your center speaker in some way you are just going to be shooting in the dark.
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post #36 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 07:14 AM
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@Plasmi , just remember that while you can improve the dialog and overall performance from the center channel by upgrading to a higher quality speaker it won't change the ratio of the sound effects to dialog in the center channel. In other words, if you turn up the volume of the center speaker to where you can comfortably understand dialog any sound effects mixed into the center channel will also be louder, which you previously said you found annoying.
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post #37 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
Thanks for your responses everyone. So any three way center channel speaker will be a significant, noticeable improvement? The one easiest for me to purchase right now would be Monitor Audio Silver C350, unless that one is considered poor?

I'm really hoping to get some clear dialogue, been planning to become a movie buff for some time, a bit frustrating that it is so hard.
I had a Silver C150, 5th generation, not sure if the current C150 is any better or different.

I spent 6 months tinkering with positioning, EQ, room treatments etc. etc. I badgered my dealer to pester Monitor Audio about a better Silver Center.
I got dialogue to sound ok ish with significant manual EQ.

MA launched the C350, my dealer said "do you want me to pre order one of these?" I bought the C350 unheard, well I bought the C150 unheard too, it was supposed to match with my Silver 8's.

Now extremely happy with dialogue, dialogue clarity is the biggest comment I get from visitors, back when we were allowed visitors. I'm glad I learned about EQ, placement, reflections etc, it's a big part of clarity. I'd never buy an MTM center again, I'd use a extra bookshelf speaker, another same as my L&R if I could or at least a center with vertical alignment and preferrably a 3 way.

Earlier in the thread you said no-one was giving any feedback as to the quality of the C350, well I will. It's completely excellent for it's price, not as clear as the Silver 8's for vocals but really really close, an order of magnitude better than the C150. My C150 is in the loft, anyone want to buy it? I used to use it in the office but even there I have matching bookshelf speakers, 5 Bronze 1's.


Don't forget the other stuff, plenty of good advice in this thread but ditch the MTM, center speaker is the most important one in the whole system. Do all your crossover tweaking on the Center for movies, L&R for music.

That's what I think, a bit of forum searching will find you the history of my C150.

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post #38 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 07:49 AM
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Another suggestion that has come up in this topic, not meant to be facetious, is to have your hearing tested. EQ can compensate for that, but it would be nice to know that nothing else is wrong.
Michael
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post #39 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
I just set my PS3 to Dolby Audio, the receiver recognized It but sadly no noticeable improvement for me.
Check your audio settings on your PS3, set it to Bitstream audio so your receiver is doing the audio decoding instead of the PS3. After you do that, run the audio calibration (Audyssey?) on your receiver again.

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post #40 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Another suggestion that has come up in this topic, not meant to be facetious, is to have your hearing tested. EQ can compensate for that, but it would be nice to know that nothing else is wrong.
Michael
Hearing is something we should all take seriously. One of the early signs of hearing loss is having difficulty understanding dialog from people you're with in a noisy environment like a crowded bar or restaurant. Separating dialog from sound effects when both are coming through the center channel is similar.
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post #41 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses everyone. So even if i get a three way center it could be the auto calibration that is the issue? I need a xt32 receiver?

I must admit I am finding all this demotivating and am considering giving up, as impatient as that sounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jawaburger View Post
Check your audio settings on your PS3, set it to Bitstream audio so your receiver is doing the audio decoding instead of the PS3. After you do that, run the audio calibration (Audyssey?) on your receiver again.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. I can't set it to both Dolby and bitstream?
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post #42 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
Thanks for the responses everyone. So even if i get a three way center it could be the auto calibration that is the issue? I need a xt32 receiver?

I must admit I am finding all this demotivating and am considering giving up, as impatient as that sounds.
Don't give up already, man! Odds are, you simply had the bad luck to end up with a crappy center because you were following the usual "timbre matching" fairy tale that most folks in this hobby loves to regurgitate, salespeople especially.

And for Chrissakes, do NOT upgrade your receiver before trying out a decent center first---as previously suggested, all it takes is a quick buy-and-return experiment at Best Buy with one of those Klipsch RP centers. Then you can buy a high-value center like an Emotiva C1, Ascend 340SE, etc.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #43 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Hearing is something we should all take seriously. One of the early signs of hearing loss is having difficulty understanding dialog from people you're with in a noisy environment like a crowded bar or restaurant. Separating dialog from sound effects when both are coming through the center channel is similar.

Here here. This landed me with a set of "aids"... I didn't realize how bad it had gotten. If you're older, or did a bunch of stupid stuff when younger (car stereos (yup), guns (oh definitely), concerts (a few), or both then you got loss. Hence my forum name, as it hits on both my hearing, and a like for Motorhead.

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post #44 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 01:40 PM
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a bunch of stupid stuff when younger (car stereos (yup), guns (oh definitely), concerts (a few), or both then you got loss.
and bad math.

Michael
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post #45 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Don't give up already, man! Odds are, you simply had the bad luck to end up with a crappy center because you were following the usual "timbre matching" fairy tale that most folks in this hobby loves to regurgitate, salespeople especially.

And for Chrissakes, do NOT upgrade your receiver before trying out a decent center first---as previously suggested, all it takes is a quick buy-and-return experiment at Best Buy with one of those Klipsch RP centers. Then you can buy a high-value center like an Emotiva C1, Ascend 340SE, etc.
Do they have Best Buy's in "North Europe"?

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post #46 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
and bad math.

Michael



DOH!! I add that to the older part, so still 2? Maybe 4 hell I lost count now.

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post #47 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Do they have Best Buy's in "North Europe"?
Hah! I was looking at his first 2 postings not the penultimate one where he mentioned that.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #48 of 128 Old 06-26-2020, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
Monitor Audio Silver C350
(1) That should be very good, it's basically a reconfigured version of the Silver 300s I spent a few hours listening to at Upscale Audio, they were excellent. Clear and lovely with jazz, classical, Steely Dan, pop. I could even play Iron Maiden and Motorhead cranked up, the speakers did not flinch at all unlike 99% of speakers I've auditioned.
(2) The table the center is on, sorry, NO. That's just not good with the speaker at the back and I don't really agree to move it to the front, then it's very close and...ugh. I guess the TV is too unstable if you put that center directly underneath? Maybe the C350 would be big enough for that? OR something somehow to support the TV. We just moved a friend's center channel from down low to on top of his console, in line with the main L/R. WOW what a difference! SO much better. Center channel flush to the front of the console please.
(3) Did you in fact run time alignment speaker setup on the receiver? Move the center and re-run
(4) Check you are running the pure 5.1 sound, not some synthesized "improvement" or "ambience" etc. It's easy to have your receiver doing not what you think
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post #49 of 128 Old 06-27-2020, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Are you using the analog multi-channel connections? If not, how is the BluRay player connected to the receiver? Do you have the BluRay player's digital output set to send PCM or Bitstream? I suggest setting it to Bitstream so your receiver can do the Dolby or DTS decoding. Then your receiver will read "Dolby Digital" or "DTS", or whatever codec you use.


If all else fails, try phantom CC as I described above just as an experiment to see if it helps. Doesn't cost anything to try it. You can always turn the CC back on.

Craig
I'm confused. Another person told me to set my PS3 settings to dolby?

EDIT: I think i've set it all right. The reciver shows the Dolby symbols. But it is still not clear, so I guess i'll go for the three way center.

EDIT: Changing the center also to 80hz, which the fronts are, don't seem to change much. But thanks for all the help, i'll keep trying speakers and sending them back. I don't have any hifi-store near me so it all has to be sent, which is what makes it a bit annoying.

Last edited by Plasmi; 06-27-2020 at 06:37 AM.
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post #50 of 128 Old 06-27-2020, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
I'm confused. Another person told me to set my PS3 settings to dolby?
What kind of cable are you using to connect the PS3 to your receiver? If you're using the cable supplied with the PS3, the "AV Cable", you're using the lowest level of inter-connect available, composite video and analog 2-channel audio. You want to connect via HDMI, which will allow the highest resolution of video and the best audio signal possible. Any further advice will be predicated on which cable you are using.

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Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
EDIT: I think i've set it all right. The reciver shows the Dolby symbols. But it is still not clear, so I guess i'll go for the three way center.

EDIT: Changing the center also to 80hz, which the fronts are, don't seem to change much. But thanks for all the help, i'll keep trying speakers and sending them back. I don't have any hifi-store near me so it all has to be sent, which is what makes it a bit annoying.
Before you start buying and returning speakers, let's be sure you have everything setup to use the highest level signals possible.

Craig

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post #51 of 128 Old 06-27-2020, 08:34 AM
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Somehow I get the feeling that chasing after a unicorn center speaker is not going to resolve this.
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post #52 of 128 Old 06-27-2020, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Somehow I get the feeling that chasing after a unicorn center speaker is not going to resolve this.
Why not? Looks like he's done troubleshooting as suggested by other posters, and problem doesn't appear to be user error at this point.

And another poster on this thread has shared a similar bad experience with that C150.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #53 of 128 Old 06-27-2020, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
So even if i get a three way center it could be the auto calibration that is the issue?
It could easily be position, and your room. I would try things that don't cost money first - like moving the centre forward, tilting it towards ear level, etc... before throwing money at another centre channel speaker.
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post #54 of 128 Old 06-27-2020, 09:28 AM
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Just a feeling. Something doesn't compute for me. I've been wrong before.
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post #55 of 128 Old 06-27-2020, 10:34 AM
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Also, which series of Monitor Audio speakers is it? Because the new Bronze series also uses the C150 model number - same as the current Silver series.

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post #56 of 128 Old 06-27-2020, 05:05 PM
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@Plasmi :

someone just wrote up a comparison of the C150 vs C350
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...ay-center.html

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #57 of 128 Old 06-27-2020, 06:50 PM
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As others have stated, positioning first, center speaker 2nd and XT32 AVR 3rd.
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post #58 of 128 Old 06-28-2020, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I should have specified. The speaker is moved forward and hangs over the table with the doorstops, so it's not like in the picture.

Not sure if it matters, but my TV is a pioneer kuro without built-in speakers, so the input assingn for the TV audio looks like this:

TV AUDIO - OPT - INPUT MODE: DIGITAl

I can only switch from opt to coaxial setting. But I do not think that this is a problem, as the center is fantastic with every sound except dialogue. If something was wrong would those also not sound horrible?

This is a bit stressful, haha. I'll try to hang in there, I don't want to go my life without ever watching a movie again x)

Also, thanks for the comparison link.

EDIT: Is there anything wrong with the way I use my bananplugs?
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Last edited by Plasmi; 06-28-2020 at 07:29 AM.
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post #59 of 128 Old 06-28-2020, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
I should have specified. The speaker is moved forward and hangs over the table with the doorstops, so it's not like in the picture.

Not sure if it matters, but my TV is a pioneer kuro without built-in speakers, so the input assingn for the TV audio looks like this:

TV AUDIO - OPT - INPUT MODE: DIGITAl

I can only switch from opt to coaxial setting. But I do not think that this is a problem, as the center is fantastic with every sound except dialogue. If something was wrong would those also not sound horrible?

This is a bit stressful, haha. I'll try to hang in there, I don't want to go my life without ever watching a movie again x)

Also, thanks for the comparison link.

EDIT: Is there anything wrong with the way I use my bananplugs?
You're not using the TV speakers in addition to the CC, are you?

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post #60 of 128 Old 06-28-2020, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
You're not using the TV speakers in addition to the CC, are you?
The Pioneer Kuro model I have has NO speakers whatsoever, no internal ones. I think you had to buy them separately or the previous owner took them off.

Anybody have any thoughts before I send the speaker back tomorrow? I'm a bit worried about getting a new one and finding out that one ain't that great either. Because then i don't really know what the problem is.
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