Desperate for clear dialogue - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 130 Old 06-28-2020, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
You're not using the TV speakers in addition to the CC, are you?
Or is he running a TOSLINK cable from his TV to the AVR?

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post #62 of 130 Old 06-28-2020, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
Anybody have any thoughts before I send the speaker back tomorrow? I'm a bit worried about getting a new one and finding out that one ain't that great either. Because then i don't really know what the problem is.
The C350 appears to be head and shoulders better than your C150. If *that* doesn't work then you'll know 100% the problem is elsewhere.

The only other testing option is if one of your friends has a good center speaker, or even a good bookshelf speaker, that you can substitute for your C150 and see if it solves the dialogue problem.

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post #63 of 130 Old 06-28-2020, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
Or is he running a TOSLINK cable from his TV to the AVR?
My PS3 goes with HDMI to my AVR. Optical cable from AVR to TV. Because my TV does not have a dedicated HDMI arc and I am using a PS3 I don't believe any other way is possible? I told the seller this and it seemed there should be no problem.
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post #64 of 130 Old 06-28-2020, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
My PS3 goes with HDMI to my AVR. Optical cable from AVR to TV. Because my TV does not have a dedicated HDMI arc and I am using a PS3 I don't believe any other way is possible? I told the seller this and it seemed there should be no problem.
Yes, but are the TV speakers playing at the same time as the speakers that are connected to the receiver?
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post #65 of 130 Old 06-28-2020, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
My PS3 goes with HDMI to my AVR. Optical cable from AVR to TV. Because my TV does not have a dedicated HDMI arc and I am using a PS3 I don't believe any other way is possible? I told the seller this and it seemed there should be no problem.
Why are you connecting your TV to your AVR with an optical cable? Ar you using the TV's built-in apps for streaming? If so, I would believe that the PS3 apps would suffice.
For the best results, all peripherals (cable box, game console, streaming device, HTPS, BluRay player, etc) should be connected to your AVR with HDMI cables that are certified to 4K/UHD standards (Monoprice and Amazon Basics have all you need for close to pennies). You should use a single HDMI from your AVR to your TV.

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post #66 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Yes, but are the TV speakers playing at the same time as the speakers that are connected to the receiver?
I'm sorry, I do not understand. If my TV has no speakers whatsoever how can they be playing at the same time?

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Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
Why are you connecting your TV to your AVR with an optical cable? Ar you using the TV's built-in apps for streaming? If so, I would believe that the PS3 apps would suffice.
For the best results, all peripherals (cable box, game console, streaming device, HTPS, BluRay player, etc) should be connected to your AVR with HDMI cables that are certified to 4K/UHD standards (Monoprice and Amazon Basics have all you need for close to pennies). You should use a single HDMI from your AVR to your TV.
I do not stream at all, only blu-ray or DVD via the PS3.

Will a single HDMI even work when my Pioneer Kuro does not have a HDMI arc?

EDIT:: And how do i connect my PS3 to the TV then??

Last edited by Plasmi; 06-29-2020 at 01:53 AM.
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post #67 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 02:23 AM
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I thought Kuro plasmas had HDMI? The TV should be receiving an HDMI cable from the HDMI out of your receiver. Which it must be already if your PS3 is displaying a picture. Right? How do you have it connected?

You don't need the optical cable.
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post #68 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
I'm sorry, I do not understand. If my TV has no speakers whatsoever how can they be playing at the same time?
Unless I am mistaken, all TVs have internal speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
Will a single HDMI even work when my Pioneer Kuro does not have a HDMI arc?

EDIT:: And how do i connect my PS3 to the TV then??
ARC isn't required because ARC is sort of for something else, really. Plug an HDMI cable from 1501's OUT slot into one of the TVs HDMI slots - HDMI transmits audio and visual signals.

You connect the PS3 via HDMI into one of the inputs (Game, for example) on the AVR. That's it.

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post #69 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 03:58 AM
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3 key things to consider:

- you have the best center you can afford
- you have the positioning done as best as your room allows :
- room treatment, it is the single most influential part of the setup as no matter even if you have the most expensive gear in the world if you hear the room not the speakers:

Unless you have these in order you can spend all the money and time on this forum you will never have it right. Once this is dialed in then room correction can add to it, room correction can only achieve so much without treatment as it has to alter source dynamics and its never a good thing.

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post #70 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Statz View Post
Unless I am mistaken, all TVs have internal speakers.



ARC isn't required because ARC is sort of for something else, really. Plug an HDMI cable from 1501's OUT slot into one of the TVs HDMI slots - HDMI transmits audio and visual signals.

You connect the PS3 via HDMI into one of the inputs (Game, for example) on the AVR. That's it.
Thank you, I was misunderstood. I removed the optical and it worked as normal. I think it never used the optical to begin with, whoops.

I'm not sure if I actually can treat my room, I did not know it was that important. Was hoping a good speaker could override that.
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post #71 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
Thank you, I was misunderstood. I removed the optical and it worked as normal. I think it never used the optical to begin with, whoops.

I'm not sure if I actually can treat my room, I did not know it was that important. Was hoping a good speaker could override that.
I think you should watch the videos I posted and save your self a lot of time and effort trying to solve your issue. You need to understand the fundamentals of room acoustics first.

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post #72 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 05:39 AM
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Just to chime in for a moment.

Have you tried one of your other speakers in the centre position?

Out of curiosity swap your centre speaker with the left or right speaker see what happens.

Couldn’t hurt to try.

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post #73 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Statz View Post
Unless I am mistaken, all TVs have internal speakers.



ARC isn't required because ARC is sort of for something else, really. Plug an HDMI cable from 1501's OUT slot into one of the TVs HDMI slots - HDMI transmits audio and visual signals.

You connect the PS3 via HDMI into one of the inputs (Game, for example) on the AVR. That's it.
You are probably not mistaken since I'm sure there is some official definition of "TV" out there that requires audio and some sort of OTA tuner, but his Kuro is probably not a "TV" but a "Monitor". The KRP-500m and KRP-600m Pioneer Kuro plasmas do NOT have internal speakers. I can confirm because I still own a KRP-500m. I believe they were intended for custom installers who would never be using internal speakers anyway so why bother?
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post #74 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 07:15 AM
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Im sorry, but man am I confused, you are having issues hearing dialogue out of a $800 center channel and the answers are to spend more money? Makes me wonder exactly whats going on because this center speaker shouldnt be the issue. Maybe the answer is as simple as turn it up louder? What are your listening levels?

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post #75 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 07:18 AM
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My suggestion is to measure before you do anything. Buy a calibrated microphone (e.g. UMIK-1) from cross spectrum labs, download Room EQ Wizard and measure your left, right and center and post your results in this thread or in this one, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...et-graphs.html. There will be plenty of forum members who will be willing to interpret the graphs for you. Without measurements, everyone is just speculating as to to the source of your problem. The mic will cost you a little money, but you'll likely save a lot more in the long run.

Cheers,
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post #76 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post
My suggestion is to measure before you do anything. Buy a calibrated microphone (e.g. UMIK-1) from cross spectrum labs, download Room EQ Wizard and measure your left, right and center and post your results in this thread or in this one, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...et-graphs.html. There will be plenty of forum members who will be willing to interpret the graphs for you. Without measurements, everyone is just speculating as to to the source of your problem. The mic will cost you a little money, but you'll likely save a lot more in the long run.

Cheers,
OldMovieNut
very good advice, post the graph so we can see where the issue lies.
it goes back to what I suggested. You need to understand your room first.

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post #77 of 130 Old 06-29-2020, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
I'm not sure if I actually can treat my room, I did not know it was that important. Was hoping a good speaker could override that.

The sad thing is a bad room will not make a speaker sound good, regardless of whether you spend $300 or $30,000. Sometimes it's just a matter of placing things in a different spot, but sometimes it requires room treatment. It could even be just simply turning the volume up a little bit more than what you normally do.
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post #78 of 130 Old 06-30-2020, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all, but I'm not really willing to treat my room, and this whole effort has given me a lot of anxiety. I'm a bit confused how the average person without home speakers and room treatment gets clear sound. Does the average person just watch movies with subtitles now? That's kinda sad.
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post #79 of 130 Old 06-30-2020, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
Thanks all, but I'm not really willing to treat my room, and this whole effort has given me a lot of anxiety. I'm a bit confused how the average person without home speakers and room treatment gets clear sound. Does the average person just watch movies with subtitles now? That's kinda sad.
The problem is we just have no idea what "clear" means to you. Since we are not able to hear what you do the only way is to see some measurements to be able to at least give you an idea on what your current situation is, without that we are all in the dark and just shooting blanks.
You can download REW its free and you can use the mic that came with your AVR, it would really cost you nothing and would go a long way in troubleshooting your issue.

If it gives you anxiety and not willing to do at least that, sorry not much can be done.

The very least you an do for your own cause is watch the videos form that youtube channel I posted earlier, that will give you a better overall understanding on what you have and how it should be setup. We can only point you in the right direction but you have to do the work.

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post #80 of 130 Old 06-30-2020, 04:19 AM
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I was plagued by poor center channel dialogue until I got a Yamaha 2080 receiver and calibrated my one seat for 8 mike positions. Biggest change when I used a tripod and had three positions in front of my seat using tripod on the floor in front of couch. Once my 8 calibrations were done and I set crossover to 80HZ for all 9 speakers everything came alive. My center channel has never performed better.

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post #81 of 130 Old 06-30-2020, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm gonna try to return both the receiver and speaker, I don't think a home cinema is for me lol. Thanks for all the help
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post #82 of 130 Old 06-30-2020, 08:43 AM
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Just a feeling. Something doesn't compute for me. I've been wrong before.
And sometimes I get it right.
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post #83 of 130 Old 06-30-2020, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
I'm gonna try to return both the receiver and speaker, I don't think a home cinema is for me lol.
That would be very silly. Just return the C150 and get the C350...it's not rocket science, despite what some folks seem to make it into.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #84 of 130 Old 06-30-2020, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
I'm gonna try to return both the receiver and speaker, I don't think a home cinema is for me lol. Thanks for all the help
Listen...find yourself something that works and you can enjoy. The passion here runs deep...for helping others but only a small fragment really care enough to go the added lengths required to
measure with a full array of mics and equipment....find a happy medium, sit back and enjoy...but don't give up.
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post #85 of 130 Old 06-30-2020, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
That would be very silly. Just return the C150 and get the C350...it's not rocket science, despite what some folks seem to make it into.
That won't won't make much a of a difference if all else is wrong. He needs to measure to get started, he is not willing to do that so as he says home cinema may not be for him. There are good sound bars to take all the setup and guess work out of it and provide semi decent sound quality. In this case I would rather suggest to opt for that approach instead.

We must realize on this forum we are the cream of it but the other 99% of the population just want a plug n' play decent solution with no work involved at all.

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post #86 of 130 Old 07-01-2020, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
@Plasmi , just remember that while you can improve the dialog and overall performance from the center channel by upgrading to a higher quality speaker it won't change the ratio of the sound effects to dialog in the center channel. In other words, if you turn up the volume of the center speaker to where you can comfortably understand dialog any sound effects mixed into the center channel will also be louder, which you previously said you found annoying.
Do receiver or some trick exist that can ignore everything else, absolutely everything else and raise only dialogue? Why do movies not allow this?

Really frustrating. I just returned the c150 but now other people are telling me that that speaker should have been clear enough anyway, and i am afraid of upgrading to an even more expensive one.
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post #87 of 130 Old 07-01-2020, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
Do receiver or some trick exist that can ignore everything else, absolutely everything else and raise only dialogue?
Of course...you didn't know that you can boost the center channel trim level in your receiver? Seriously? That's the main benefit of using a physical center. Please READ your receiver's USER MANUAL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
Really frustrating. I just returned the c150 but now other people are telling me that that speaker should have been clear enough anyway, and i am afraid of upgrading to an even more expensive one.
Just ignore them and order the C350 already.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #88 of 130 Old 07-01-2020, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Of course...you didn't know that you can boost the center channel trim level in your receiver? Seriously? That's the main benefit of using a physical center. Please READ your receiver's USER MANUAL!



Just ignore them and order the C350 already.
I thought that also raised center explosions?
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post #89 of 130 Old 07-01-2020, 01:19 PM
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I thought that also raised center explosions?
Your subwoofer does all the explosions.

If you don't have a subwoofer, that would be the second biggest upgrade you can do for your system.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #90 of 130 Old 07-01-2020, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmi View Post
I am setting up a home cinema for the first time, solely for the purpose of achieving clear movie dialogue. I want to hear the whispering and mumbling with crystal clear sound.

I am struggling. First let me post my setup and some pictures, a simple 3.0

Monitor C150 center
Monitor C150
Marantz 1501 receiver


My dream would be to have ONLY dialogue come through the center channel.
First, whispering and mumbling are not meant to be crystal clear or else it wouldn't be whispering and mumbling.
B. IME dialogue is heavily dependent on the source and source material. Some are great, most are OK and a few are just bad and there's nothing you can do about it other than to turn on the CC.
3. Some AVRs have dialogue "enhancement" modes like Yamaha's "dialogue lift" feature. Not sure how well any of them work.
You can try different DSPs that your AVR has. I like to use DTS Neural X THX Cinema with my AVR (Onkyo 820) seems to work well.

Have you had your hearing checked? Maybe it's you and not your setup.

Try a soundbar like the Sonos ARC that has dialogue specific settings.

Whatever the issue is it's not your speakers.

Good luck.

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