Substantial LCR Upgrade Staying With Bookshelf Mains Possible? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 166 Old 06-28-2020, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Substantial LCR Upgrade Staying With Bookshelf Mains Possible?

I'm not sure if i'm in fantasy land asking this but here it goes. I'm very happy with my front sound stage for the most part (All Chane A2.4's.) I'm guessing my old ears may be catching up to me somewhat as i'm finding i need to have my MV near reference to get the dynamics and soundstage presence i so love. With a large sub upgrade coming shortly i'm wanting to know what i can do to give the front soundstage a needed substantial bump to keep up while keeping the speaker size similar. The hindrance is due to what would be way to much speaker clutter on the front soundstage as the two subs are huge and close to 450/500lbs between them. Adding big floorstanding mains will just be to much clutter.

Are there any LCR combo's that includes bookshelf mains, and a center not exceeding 8.5" in height that would be a big jump in sound quality/dynamics? I'm looking to keep my budget under $6000 Canadian. I really like the JBL HDI series from what i've read and reviews watched,,, of coarse there are Revel/Dynaudio/Sonus Faber, and several other brands that make some nice bookshelf/centers.

I'm also wondering (as so many of these speakers are only 85DB sensitivity, some less) that unless i get a nice three channel separate amp i'd never here their potential?? I'm concerned adding an amp as ive read to many posts where a hum was introduced to the systems noise floor. Dont want to deal with that, so would need to find an amp known for a very quiet noise floor or at least one with fewest complaints.

Anyway just putting out this feeler to hopefully get an idea if Physics is going to be the answer (bigger is better) or if there are any nice upgrades to be had within my size concerns.

I still have yet to find any JBL HDI in Canada, not sure if their here yet.

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post #2 of 166 Old 06-28-2020, 03:58 PM
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Paradigm Prestige 15B and 55C. Both on sale on Paradigm's website, so a dealer may be able to offer you less.
The 15Bs have a -2dB measurement of 57Hz (probably in-room) and 90dB/W (again, in-room) sensitivity. By my signature, you can tell that I like them.
The next step up in terms of sensitivity could be the Klipsch RP-series, but I doubt they would compare to Paradigm sonicly.

The PowerSound Audio speakers will probably be too large for your room, but could work: https://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/speakers

JTR has a "smaller" speaker that would sound excellent: http://jtrspeakers.com/noesis-228ht.html
Both of them are highly-efficient speakers with pro-audio (PA) drivers.
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post #3 of 166 Old 06-28-2020, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
Paradigm Prestige 15B and 55C. Both on sale on Paradigm's website, so a dealer may be able to offer you less.
The 15Bs have a -2dB measurement of 57Hz (probably in-room) and 90dB/W (again, in-room) sensitivity. By my signature, you can tell that I like them.
The next step up in terms of sensitivity could be the Klipsch RP-series, but I doubt they would compare to Paradigm sonicly.

The PowerSound Audio speakers will probably be too large for your room, but could work: https://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/speakers

JTR has a "smaller" speaker that would sound excellent: http://jtrspeakers.com/noesis-228ht.html
Both of them are highly-efficient speakers with pro-audio (PA) drivers.
I was very interested in PSA's before i bought my Chanes but the center channel with its 10" drivers was just to tall and wouldnt fit. I had the Klipsch RP 160's and RP250C and did like them but found they were not as good as i would have liked off axis. The Chanes i find to be right there with volume,, as the Klipsch are a bit over rated in their sensitivity. Yes have heard lots of praise with the JTR speakers, but after my experience with with faulty S1's and how that was handled just wont go there again. I will have a look at the Paradigm's,,, thanks!!

I have never heard "high priced,, High End" speakers so just posted this to see "IF" there is a big difference with the big boy brands considering how well reviewed my A2.4's are. I suspect i may need an external amp for the front sound stage to get what i'm hoping for staying with a smaller footprint. If i can find a retailer up here the JBL HDI with a three channel amp may get it done but its a big investment to take a chance with my limited knowledge. Thanks for responding!!

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-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
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post #4 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
I was very interested in PSA's before i bought my Chanes but the center channel with its 10" drivers was just to tall and wouldnt fit. I had the Klipsch RP 160's and RP250C and did like them but found they were not as good as i would have liked off axis. The Chanes i find to be right there with volume,, as the Klipsch are a bit over rated in their sensitivity. Yes have heard lots of praise with the JTR speakers, but after my experience with with faulty S1's and how that was handled just wont go there again. I will have a look at the Paradigm's,,, thanks!!

I have never heard "high priced,, High End" speakers so just posted this to see "IF" there is a big difference with the big boy brands considering how well reviewed my A2.4's are. I suspect i may need an external amp for the front sound stage to get what i'm hoping for staying with a smaller footprint. If i can find a retailer up here the JBL HDI with a three channel amp may get it done but its a big investment to take a chance with my limited knowledge. Thanks for responding!!
It seems like three HDI 4500s might just be the ticket...but, as you say, for loud volume, you'd need amps.

Or three of these:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_714RC6...Black-Ash.html
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post #5 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
I was very interested in PSA's before i bought my Chanes but the center channel with its 10" drivers was just to tall and wouldnt fit. I had the Klipsch RP 160's and RP250C and did like them but found they were not as good as i would have liked off axis.
The Klipsch RC64-III has a much larger tweeter than the RP series.

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post #6 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 09:47 AM
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So PSA's are too big, JTR is out. JBL HDI is a possibility but keep in mind are not any more sensitive than other speakers.

Klipsh RP500M would be a good choice, but I'd maybe look at ELAC Debut Reference DBR62s. These can get really loud and have gotten tons of praise for their sound quality. It's sounding like they may be the new champ under $1k.
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post #7 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 10:43 AM
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Keep in mind that most independently measured reviews of Klipsch speakers show lower sensitivity than claimed. For example when Stereophile tested the RP-600M which Klipsch rates at 96dB/2.83V/m they measured only 89.6dB/2.83V/m. While above average for most home speakers actual sensitivity falls below spec, so that's something to take into consideration when comparing sensitivity of different brand speakers.
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post #8 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes i agree^,, thats why i made the point that the chanes were right there with my RP160's . Its been a while since i have listened to them but if i'm remembering correctly,, i think i posted when i got my Chanes that i had to add about 2DB to my MV to sound equally loud to my ears (this was without measuring) and could have been me not used to the new sound signature. However Audyssey, post results,, even now in my new place, larger room and MLP about two feet further than my old place with the Klipsch's have almost identical trim results.

I suspect my ears are the culprit and maybe triggering upgraditis. Even adding a 200wpc three channel amp based on paper is only going to net me about +3DB more headroom,,, having said that (what may not be on paper) is many claiming a good separate amp adds much more sonically that the 3DB gained,, i guess a whole different conversation.

The quad 6.5" Klipsch's are monsters lol and are a reminder that is to get to the next level of dynamic output up front will require larger speakers. I'm sure they would definitely be a step up. The HDI-4500 cant have their waveguide turned like the chanes Planar tweeter so i suspect axis will be effected running two as mains.

Once again i'm overthinking.

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post #9 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 12:07 PM
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Neumann KH310 is a small 3 way bookshelf speaker that might fit you.

It can't get that loud in bass (sealed), but you have subwoofer anyway. You'll also have 3 identical speaker which is the best way to do LCR in my opinion. You don't need an amp with them, as they are active.


I've looked and it's slightly higher than you need for a center. Is this requirement an absolute must?
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post #10 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 12:09 PM
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If you're not in a hurry the new Chane L series coming out "soon" is worth looking at.

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post #11 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 12:20 PM
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Thinking more about this and your SPL requirements, I should have recommended the Debut Reference Towers instead of the standmount. They probably take up the same floor space but give you more power handling.
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post #12 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 12:58 PM
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If you can go another 2" in height, perhaps a trio of 98db @1watt- Zu cubes. According to their website, they will pulverize you with sound.

https://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/cube-1a
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post #13 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by shivaji View Post
If you can go another 2" in height, perhaps a trio of 98db @1watt- Zu cubes. According to their website, they will pulverize you with sound.

https://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/cube-1a
I'm sure they will, but not in a good way. His Chanes probably sound better.
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post #14 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post

The quad 6.5" Klipsch's are monsters lol and are a reminder that is to get to the next level of dynamic output up front will require larger speakers.
They meet your 8" height restriction though.

Plus, due to their horn design, you can use too more as left and right in the vertical position if you wish.

No need for an amp with those and they will be more dynamic than the Chanes.
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post #15 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ZGief View Post
If you're not in a hurry the new Chane L series coming out "soon" is worth looking at.

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I think the 700 series is going to be the massive HT usege one.


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post #16 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
I was very interested in PSA's before i bought my Chanes but the center channel with its 10" drivers was just to tall and wouldnt fit. I had the Klipsch RP 160's and RP250C and did like them but found they were not as good as i would have liked off axis. The Chanes i find to be right there with volume,, as the Klipsch are a bit over rated in their sensitivity. Yes have heard lots of praise with the JTR speakers, but after my experience with with faulty S1's and how that was handled just wont go there again. I will have a look at the Paradigm's,,, thanks!!

I have never heard "high priced,, High End" speakers so just posted this to see "IF" there is a big difference with the big boy brands considering how well reviewed my A2.4's are. I suspect i may need an external amp for the front sound stage to get what i'm hoping for staying with a smaller footprint. If i can find a retailer up here the JBL HDI with a three channel amp may get it done but its a big investment to take a chance with my limited knowledge. Thanks for responding!!
FWIW, I don't use any external amps for my LCR - just the Anthem MRX 720. I am about 9' from my TV and 85dB is easily reached at my MLP.
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post #17 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aats View Post
Neumann KH310 is a small 3 way bookshelf speaker that might fit you.

It can't get that loud in bass (sealed), but you have subwoofer anyway. You'll also have 3 identical speaker which is the best way to do LCR in my opinion. You don't need an amp with them, as they are active.


I've looked and it's slightly higher than you need for a center. Is this requirement an absolute must?
Thanks for your suggestion, i just watched a review and as was mentioned,, not a loud speaker (no DB's were mentioned) so quoting "loud" or somewhat loud is quit subjective. His MLP was only about 5/6feet from them and the clipping light was constantly going off so may not be what i'm looking for. Until i completely re due my tv and component cabinet i'm restricted to 8.5" or it will interfere with my TV.

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
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post #18 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
So PSA's are too big, JTR is out. JBL HDI is a possibility but keep in mind are not any more sensitive than other speakers.

Klipsh RP500M would be a good choice, but I'd maybe look at ELAC Debut Reference DBR62s. These can get really loud and have gotten tons of praise for their sound quality. It's sounding like they may be the new champ under $1k.
Thanks Soulburner for this suggestion, after watching a couple reviews they seem promising despite them commenting the 2.0 in their opinion had better performance in some areas. So much subjectiveness on reviews it is challenging to make a definitive decision on the product without hearing them.

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
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post #19 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ZGief View Post
If you're not in a hurry the new Chane L series coming out "soon" is worth looking at.

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Unfortunately, the English adverb "soon" in Chane-world can have a rather elastic meaning, to put it politely...

(heh, I do love my A2.4 center, though.)
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Thanks everyone for your comments,, they definitely help me understand things to consider. The Klipsch's which would give me 12X6.5" drivers and three larger compression horn loaded upper end tweeters would certainly have much more impact. I'm wondering two things (off axis performance, are they better than my RP's were, are they as good as my Chanes?) Second, with my expensive custom made stands i think the horn would be close to a foot higher than my Chanes. Would hate to have no use for those. But will seriously look more into those.

My understanding is Jon's new line of speakers wont be available for some time yet, who knows with Covid,, but certainly a great guy to talk to so i will have this conversation with him.

On a final note,,, (if) i go with speakers that are not going to give me "more" output,,, are there speaker who's sound quality alone would be a substantial upgrade? Before purchasing the Chanes, i was going to pull the trigger on the Philharmonics BMR and matching center but (at that time) didnt want to spend $6000. I was also concerned From some comments i've read that the RAAL tweeter breaks up at higher listening volume (genres specific) and is better suited for Jazz and Classical music (not sure if thats true).

Anyway, will do more research and give Jon a call, thanks again. Cheers!!

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-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
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post #21 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 08:01 PM
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For info on the BMR, why don't you simply contact @PhilharmonicDennis about the max SPL.

Kef R3/R2C is well within your budget. You might be able to find a R600C if you look around.
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post #22 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
Thanks for your suggestion, i just watched a review and as was mentioned,, not a loud speaker (no DB's were mentioned) so quoting "loud" or somewhat loud is quit subjective. His MLP was only about 5/6feet from them and the clipping light was constantly going off so may not be what i'm looking for. Until i completely re due my tv and component cabinet i'm restricted to 8.5" or it will interfere with my TV.
You can check for sound and recording measurements how loud it gets, they also have almost the same set of measurements on their product page.
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post #23 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
For info on the BMR, why don't you simply contact @PhilharmonicDennis about the max SPL.

.
I'm afraid he wouldn't get very far. I really don't know what their max SPL is (not that the term has any standard meaning). I don't use my BMR's in home theater, and I don't listen to music at super high volume. If they were played full range, I'm pretty sure the woofer would be the first to go, and it's a pretty beefy unit. With a sub, it might be the midrange. I've never had a RAAL tweeter fail in the field (or any driver failures for that matter), and I've sold BMR's to some pretty wild characters. But I've never promoted them as class leaders in dynamics. Their forte is sound staging and neutrality.
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post #24 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 09:29 PM
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The OP has a pair of Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo subs with 4kW of amplification, so running the BMRs with an 80Hz crossover would save to woofers. I know you didn't design them for SPL freaks or HT in particular, but I'm sure there are those out there using them as such.
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post #25 of 166 Old 06-29-2020, 10:50 PM
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The BMR is going to amaze for sound quality but isn't most people's first choice in loudness.

I really think towers should be considered because that's where you get loud. Maybe there are some useful bits in here:

I think if they did another roundup, the ELAC Debut Reference towers would get praise. I just checked and I don't know why there isn't a 6.5" version yet, a DFR62. Maybe that is in the works.

I'm sorry to hear about your hearing issues. Maybe something to consider is this: for someone who wants loud and has some hearing damage, whether age-related or otherwise, the RBH (unless they are too tall) could be a good choice because of their slight boost in 2-4 kHz range, which is the range that sees the earliest and largest decline when talking about hearing damage. Maybe this could make up for that and they would sound neutral, and would also help with dialogue. It will certainly make the speaker sound a bit louder than the others.
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post #26 of 166 Old 06-30-2020, 12:26 AM
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Thanks everyone for your comments,, they definitely help me understand things to consider. The Klipsch's which would give me 12X6.5" drivers and three larger compression horn loaded upper end tweeters would certainly have much more impact. I'm wondering two things (off axis performance, are they better than my RP's were, are they as good as my Chanes?) Second, with my expensive custom made stands i think the horn would be close to a foot higher than my Chanes. Would hate to have no use for those. But will seriously look more into those.

My understanding is Jon's new line of speakers wont be available for some time yet, who knows with Covid,, but certainly a great guy to talk to so i will have this conversation with him.

On a final note,,, (if) i go with speakers that are not going to give me "more" output,,, are there speaker who's sound quality alone would be a substantial upgrade? Before purchasing the Chanes, i was going to pull the trigger on the Philharmonics BMR and matching center but (at that time) didnt want to spend $6000. I was also concerned From some comments i've read that the RAAL tweeter breaks up at higher listening volume (genres specific) and is better suited for Jazz and Classical music (not sure if thats true).

Anyway, will do more research and give Jon a call, thanks again. Cheers!!
The new Chanes are a sooner rather than later situation. I don't own any of their products but I'm following their news. AFAIK they are in assembly now



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post #27 of 166 Old 06-30-2020, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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The OP has a pair of Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo subs with 4kW of amplification, so running the BMRs with an 80Hz crossover would save to woofers. I know you didn't design them for SPL freaks or HT in particular, but I'm sure there are those out there using them as such.
I have all the confidence the BMR's would give me the sound quality i want no doubt. And yes i have great sounding subs that i have re-tuned setting the lowpass in the LFE channel to 150Hz then rerunning audyssey. Post audyssey setting mains at 110Hz X-Over. The Funks really help with contribution above the default 80Hz X-over many of us use on mains and help make the front mains sound larger, also i'm not sensing any unwanted localization (male vocals etc)

Coming soon!! New pair of "Funk LFE Ported" with up to 12DB's more output at port tune (12.5Hz) and more output all the way up to about 50Hz vs my present subs (could be pushing between 125/130DB's of bass at the mlp),,,,ported subs having 20K+, peak outputs is why i posted this thread. The Chanes still blow me away how they hold their composure playing music at 0mv, as well as the entire soundstage opens up and envelops me. This is what i hope to get more of as well as hear in lower volumes. Basically hoping to get at -6mv levels,,,,, what the chanes are giving me now at 0mv. That way i would have lots of headroom to keep up.

I think for "movies" since only a couple times i've had mv at -6,,,(usually -8/-10mv) i still have lots headroom there staying with chanes. Possibly the difference is, after a few wabblies i love to dial up the tunes lol and unlike the uncompressed audio on movies and some of my BR concerts, most music listening is sourced through my GooglePlay which has now merged with U-Tube music (havent moved over yet so not sure on sound quality)? The Marantz DAC seem to bring the compressed music source to life and many songs have an uncompressed sound quality to my questionable untrained old ears.

As for towers mybe i should see how the new subs look in place and see if thats an option. Subs are 55"TX26"DX20"W.

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
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post #28 of 166 Old 06-30-2020, 09:36 AM
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Since you're sending your Province-mate Nathan so much money, why not send him some more for his loudspeakers? I'm sure he could build you something that suits your budget - for Reference SPL and beyond...

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post #29 of 166 Old 06-30-2020, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Since you're sending your Province-mate Nathan so much money, why not send him some more for his loudspeakers? I'm sure he could build you something that suits your budget - for Reference SPL and beyond...
I'm surprised it took almost thirty posts for someone to suggest this lol. Yes if i had $20K more to spend i would purchase a pair of his active 8.2P mains and the active 6.3P center.

-Marantz SR-8012
-Yamaha BD-A1060
-Funk 21.0LX Master/Slave combo 4800 watts RMS/9600watts (peak)-
-Chane A-2.4 L/C/R
-Chane A-1.4 side/rear surrounds.
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post #30 of 166 Old 06-30-2020, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
Since you're sending your Province-mate Nathan so much money, why not send him some more for his loudspeakers? I'm sure he could build you something that suits your budget - for Reference SPL and beyond...
I'm surprised it took almost thirty posts for someone to suggest this lol. Yes if i had $20K more to spend i would purchase a pair of his active 8.2P mains and the active 6.3P center.
Oh I thought of it but you said 6k budget...not per speaker...lol

How about DIY and have Nathan build you the cabinets to match the sub/speakers?
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