Upgrade from Pioneer Andrew Jones SP-C22 to ELAC Debut 2.0 5.2? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Upgrade from Pioneer Andrew Jones SP-C22 to ELAC Debut 2.0 5.2?

Anyone tried this? I'm considering upgrading my center and wondering if it will match well with the rest of the Pioneer Andrew Jones stuff, but also be a very apparent upgrade. RXV-685. All Pioneer Andrew Jones, subwoofer is a 300w Pioneer Elite though. 5.1.2 upfiring Atmos.

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post #2 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by LastCallKillIt View Post
Anyone tried this? I'm considering upgrading my center and wondering if it will match well with the rest of the Pioneer Andrew Jones stuff, but also be a very apparent upgrade. RXV-685. All Pioneer Andrew Jones, subwoofer is a 300w Pioneer Elite though. 5.1.2 upfiring Atmos.
There's no such thing as "matching." That's just the usual sales pitch to make consumers buy as many speakers from any given brand/model-line as possible at one time.

Just get whatever speakers best fit your budget and usage. If your usage is mostly HT/TV almost anything will be an improvement over the AJ speakers, especially the AJ center which draws frequent complaints for muffled dialogue.

The center speaker does 70-80% of the HT/TV output and 98% of the DIALOGUE...it is *the* true workhorse/backbone of any HT setup and thus the absolute LAST place you should ever cut corners. In fact, you could get a big improvement by simply replacing it with a great center speaker only ($250-400), if you wanted to.

So what's your upgrade budget?

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #3 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
There's no such thing as "matching." That's just the usual sales pitch to make consumers buy as many speakers from any given brand/model-line as possible at one time.

Just get whatever speakers best fit your budget and usage. If your usage is mostly HT/TV almost anything will be an improvement over the AJ speakers, especially the AJ center which draws frequent complaints for muffled dialogue.

The center speaker does 70-80% of the HT/TV output and 98% of the DIALOGUE...it is *the* true workhorse/backbone of any HT setup and thus the absolute LAST place you should ever cut corners. In fact, you could get a big improvement by simply replacing it with a great center speaker only ($250-400), if you wanted to.

So what's your upgrade budget?
Yeah that's parts of what gets me. I feel like I don't understand dialogue sometimes. Leaving me wondering if it's what I'm watching or the clarity of my center. It would be nice to get a bit more punch which I'm sure the debut would deliver with the larger drivers.

Not really wanting to go over that $230 mark that the Elac is at.

I like to watch movies alot lately, also I stream tv shows and playing some games. Generally I like doing it with some volume. I'm happy with the rest of the setup for now.

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post #4 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LastCallKillIt View Post
Yeah that's parts of what gets me. I feel like I don't understand dialogue sometimes. Leaving me wondering if it's what I'm watching or the clarity of my center. It would be nice to get a bit more punch which I'm sure the debut would deliver with the larger drivers.

Not really wanting to go over that $230 mark that the Elac is at.

I like to watch movies alot lately, also I stream tv shows and playing some games. Generally I like doing it with some volume. I'm happy with the rest of the setup for now.
The ELAC center has also drawn some mixed reviews, although not as outrageously bad as the AJ center.

I would suggest the Emotiva C1 instead...it's a true 3-way not 2-way center, for one thing, and has gotten consistent raves from users on this forum. It's $250 but you could call up Emotiva directly and ask for a "factory renewed" one which knocks off 15% if they agree (it's their way of giving you a discount without lowering the regular price on their website).
https://emotiva.com/collections/loud.../airmotiv-c1-2

Another option is the HTD Level 3 center, which is $250 shipped but comes with free return shipping:
https://www.htd.com/Level-THREE-Cent...peaker?color=1
It's 2 way but has 6.5" woofers and is also well liked for clear dialogue.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #5 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
The ELAC center has also drawn some mixed reviews, although not as outrageously bad as the AJ center.

I would suggest the Emotiva C1 instead...it's a true 3-way not 2-way center, for one thing, and has gotten consistent raves from users on this forum. It's $250 but you could call up Emotiva directly and ask for a "factory renewed" one which knocks off 15% if they agree (it's their way of giving you a discount without lowering the regular price on their website).
https://emotiva.com/collections/loud.../airmotiv-c1-2

Another option is the HTD Level 3 center, which is $250 shipped but comes with free return shipping:
https://www.htd.com/Level-THREE-Cent...peaker?color=1
It's 2 way but has 6.5" woofers and is also well liked for clear dialogue.
Do they come in black? lol


EDIT

Also will need to be able to fit in the hole of my stand. I can't remember the measuerment but If I recall the ELAC was BARELY going to clear side to side.

I think it's about a 20-20.5in openening. Those are definitely not going to fit and I can't go below 6 ohms. Actually I now don't even think that ELAC was going to fit. I need to measure the opening from the backside of my stand when I get home. It the web spec for it is the front side opening with the lip.

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post #6 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 12:12 PM
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Do they come in black? lol


EDIT

Also will need to be able to fit in the hole of my stand. I can't remember the measuerment but If I recall the ELAC was BARELY going to clear side to side.

I think it's about a 20-20.5in openening. Those are definitely not going to fit and I can't go below 6 ohms. Actually I now don't even think that ELAC was going to fit. I need to measure the opening from the backside of my stand when I get home. It the web spec for it is the front side opening with the lip.
That sucks.

Well, you could try this---free return shipping:
https://rslspeakers.com/products/new...enter-channel/

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #7 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 12:15 PM
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Although really, best bang for your buck would be a single Ascend 170SE on its side (if you can't fit it vertically), about $170 shipped. Call them to order it as a horizontal center, so that they'll rotate the tweeter 90 degrees for you. You'll probably end up eventually getting the same for the L/R speakers too...these are super clear and have lots of headroom if you like it loud.
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...70/cbm170.html

They also have a special where you can get 3 for $378:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merch...ry_Code=BSTOCK
("B-stock" just means "hidden sale" --- I've bought B-stock from them before and it was in like-new condition)
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #8 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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That sucks.

Well, you could try this---free return shipping:
https://rslspeakers.com/products/new...enter-channel/
Yeah so just took the measurement. From the back side I have 21 in opening to fit a center channel.

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post #9 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LastCallKillIt View Post
Yeah so just took the measurement. From the back side I have 21 in opening to fit a center channel.
btw, if the opening is very low, make sure you have an addition 1-2" above whatever center speaker you get so that you can angle it upwards so the tweeter can be aimed at ear level.

Otherwise, you could blow $10K on a center speaker but if it's aimed at the knees or shins it will still sound like crap.

Do whatever you have to do to have adequate space/positioning for an adequate center speaker.

1. Prop the TV up on something to make more room
2. Move the TV up if it's wall mounted
3. Get a whole new media cabinet that has room for a DECENT center speaker (7-9 inches height)
4. Get a center speaker stand and put the center just in front of the media stand, like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Sanus-SFC22-B...+speaker+stand
5. Use 3 compact, sealed-cabinet or front-ported bookshelf speakers (e.g. NHT SuperOnes, Ascend 200SE, or RSL CG5) that can be easily wall mounted ABOVE the TV, tilted downwards towards the main listening position.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #10 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
btw, if the opening is very low, make sure you have an addition 1-2" above whatever center speaker you get so that you can angle it upwards so the tweeter can be aimed at ear level.

Otherwise, you could blow $10K on a center speaker but if it's aimed at the knees or shins it will still sound like crap.

Do whatever you have to do to have adequate space/positioning for an adequate center speaker.

1. Prop the TV up on something to make more room
2. Move the TV up if it's wall mounted
3. Get a whole new media cabinet that has room for a DECENT center speaker (7-9 inches height)
4. Get a center speaker stand and put the center just in front of the media stand, like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Sanus-SFC22-B...+speaker+stand
5. Use 3 compact, sealed-cabinet or front-ported bookshelf speakers (e.g. NHT SuperOnes, Ascend 200SE, or RSL CG5) that can be easily wall mounted ABOVE the TV, tilted downwards towards the main listening position.
Do you dislike the more accessable brands that can be found on the likes of Crutchfield, BB Amazon etc? I've only seen these more "boutique" brands listed, but I've seen centers on Crutchfield like Polk, Klipsch Warfedale etc that are affordable as well and run around 20.5" which would be about a perfect fit.

Currently I'd rather not upgrade the stand already. I just bought it a year ago to accomadate this current setup coming from a compact Sony Bravia home theatre in a box I used for about 10 years. Also so it could fit a larger TV that I just bought last November, but am probably moving up to a 75" from the 65". If you see in the pics I have it pulled out from the wall so it feels big enough for movies lol The front side is also the walk way through my living area. Super old house that was updated. Best layout I can run with. Which I could do rear surrounds!

Pics for reference and I also placed one from seating position for ballparking ear level to center. Thats the nice thing about the Pioneer I have. It's designed so it can be tilted to the right angle. I think around 8-8.5ft from the display. Low 7ft ceilings also why I have things where they work to get the Atmos to work better, and tilted them on door stops lol

If I wall mount a 75 I'd like to think it will be big enough and not have me right back where I am with the 65" or smaller feeling when it's not playing 16:9 content. That would also allow whatever center channel I want.

I'd rather upgrade my center first though. So you see it's complicated on my end hahaha
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post #11 of 15 Old 06-29-2020, 06:27 PM
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Do you dislike the more accessable brands that can be found on the likes of Crutchfield, BB Amazon etc? I've only seen these more "boutique" brands listed, but I've seen centers on Crutchfield like Polk, Klipsch Warfedale etc that are affordable as well and run around 20.5" which would be about a perfect fit.

Pics for reference and I also placed one from seating position for ballparking ear level to center. Thats the nice thing about the Pioneer I have. It's designed so it can be tilted to the right angle. I think around 8-8.5ft from the display. Low 7ft ceilings also why I have things where they work to get the Atmos to work better, and tilted them on door stops lol

If I wall mount a 75 I'd like to think it will be big enough and not have me right back where I am with the 65" or smaller feeling when it's not playing 16:9 content. That would also allow whatever center channel I want.

I'd rather upgrade my center first though. So you see it's complicated on my end hahaha
Then just buy a nice big full-sized center speaker now, and temporarily put it on something directly IN FRONT of your media cabinet.

Your cabinet is only going to allow small crappy centers like what you have right now; my main reason for suggesting the RSL CG23 is that even though it's small, a lot of people have had good results with it and it does have free return shipping so there's no risk to you.

I love Wharfedale speakers, but they make mostly mediocre centers. So does Polk, with the possible exception of the S30 which you can try out from Amazon. Klipsch has the RP600C but it's a little overpriced. If you're patient, you may be able to catch the Infinity RC263 on sale for $160; if not Amazon carries it for around $350.

The Internet-direct brands' centers are simply way better bang for the buck. $400 can get you an Emotiva C2+ which would be a real beast. You might be fine keeping the rest of your Pioneer speakers if you get just that one.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #12 of 15 Old 06-30-2020, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
I love Wharfedale speakers, but they make mostly mediocre centers. So does Polk, with the possible exception of the S30 which you can try out from Amazon. Klipsch has the RP600C but it's a little overpriced. If you're patient, you may be able to catch the Infinity RC263 on sale for $160; if not Amazon carries it for around $350.
Are your Evo 4.2 warm or neutral? You mentioned Wharfies are warm and musical. You recommended 225 to me. The reason I ask is I find neutral is too bright for me (e.g., Vanatoos). My budget is the 4.2 not 225 but maybe the 225 is better for me...audition is only way I guess?
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post #13 of 15 Old 06-30-2020, 09:09 AM
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Are your Evo 4.2 warm or neutral? You mentioned Wharfies are warm and musical. You recommended 225 to me. The reason I ask is I find neutral is too bright for me (e.g., Vanatoos). My budget is the 4.2 not 225 but maybe the 225 is better for me...audition is only way I guess?
I'd say neutral with a touch of warmth. There's absolutely no excess treble, but probably due to the 3 way design and the AMT tweeter, there is much less of a trade-off compromise in treble extension and detail compared to my Diamond 10.1

The 225 is probably going to be more "warm" than the Evos, so I do recommend trying them out first.

I wish Wharfedale would produce an 8" woofer or dual 5.25" or dual 6.5" woofer model in the Diamond and/or Evo series, instead of forcing consumers into the Linton just to get bigger woofers but at the expense of aesthetics (for those of us who dislike its retro looks).
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #14 of 15 Old 06-30-2020, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Then just buy a nice big full-sized center speaker now, and temporarily put it on something directly IN FRONT of your media cabinet.

Your cabinet is only going to allow small crappy centers like what you have right now; my main reason for suggesting the RSL CG23 is that even though it's small, a lot of people have had good results with it and it does have free return shipping so there's no risk to you.

I love Wharfedale speakers, but they make mostly mediocre centers. So does Polk, with the possible exception of the S30 which you can try out from Amazon. Klipsch has the RP600C but it's a little overpriced. If you're patient, you may be able to catch the Infinity RC263 on sale for $160; if not Amazon carries it for around $350.

The Internet-direct brands' centers are simply way better bang for the buck. $400 can get you an Emotiva C2+ which would be a real beast. You might be fine keeping the rest of your Pioneer speakers if you get just that one.
So here's what i've decided to do:

I'm gonna go ahead and just wall mount my 65", and use the same mount for the 75" when I buy it later this year. At full extention it will reach out to 19"s which is awesome because I just measured the distance I currently have the the away from the wall... Guess what? It's 19"s exactly haha

That will allow my to go ahead and buy a nice center and put it on top of the media stand, and I wont sacrifice my picture size putting the panel all the way against the wall. That will also allow my to get my best picture possible by allowing me to tilt it or turn it.

I believe I decided on the HTD you suggested. Those are some big drivers though. My towers have 5.25 drivers and those are bigger on that center lol It's at least 8 ohms so it should play nice with my receiver since it's mean to run 6-8 ohms every where but the towers, it can handle down to 4 ohms there according to the back panel. Ideally I'd like a 6 ohm like the rest of the speakers. That 3 way 4 ohm you suggested is pretty enticing but I would hate to smoke my receiver running it.

EDIT

Well **** just saw the Level Two center. You sure that wouldn't fit the bill for me, my small room and only being about 8.5 feet from the center? It would fit in my media center, is a VERY attractive price, and 5.25 drivers.
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post #15 of 15 Old 06-30-2020, 07:43 PM
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I believe I decided on the HTD you suggested. Those are some big drivers though. My towers have 5.25 drivers and those are bigger on that center lol It's at least 8 ohms so it should play nice with my receiver since it's mean to run 6-8 ohms every where but the towers, it can handle down to 4 ohms there according to the back panel. Ideally I'd like a 6 ohm like the rest of the speakers. That 3 way 4 ohm you suggested is pretty enticing but I would hate to smoke my receiver running it.

EDIT

Well **** just saw the Level Two center. You sure that wouldn't fit the bill for me, my small room and only being about 8.5 feet from the center? It would fit in my media center, is a VERY attractive price, and 5.25 drivers.
I wouldn't bother with the Level 2 center, as the model name suggests they are a definite step DOWN from the Level 3. And since the center does up to 80% of the HT output, you *want* it to have bigger drivers than your L/R speakers. But since HTD gives *first time* customers free return shipping, you could simply order both and decide for yourself.

PS. Emotivas lists their speakers at 4ohms because they want to nudge people into buying its (reputedly excellent) external amps which is where they probably get much fatter profit margins than their super-high-value passive speakers. Other manufacturers routinely fudge their impedance numbers (as well as sensitivity and bass extension) up for sales reasons, that's all.

I used the C1 with 15 year old $230 Panasonic receiver rated only down to 6 ohms, had zero problems, didn't even get warm.

Another member's experience powering his Emotiva T1+ with a mid-priced receiver:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post59834314

User feedback on T1+ with "basic Denon receiver" at 80db:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post59743136

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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