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Trouble understanding dialogue using my 5.1.4 setup no matter what I do

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10K views 72 replies 23 participants last post by  chikoo 
#1 · (Edited)
I have trouble understanding movie dialogues no matter what I do or tweak. Help appriciated.

For context my setup :

Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR787

Fronts: Jamo S 807 x 2

Center: Jamo S83 x 1

Rear: Jamo S 801 x 2

Height speakers: Polk Audio OWM3 x 4

Subwoofer : SVS SB12-NSD 12" x 1

*Issue *:
I have trouble understanding dialogue and ended up using subtitles for the most part.

This is all using BlueRay TrueHD or Dolby/DTS uncompressed audio. The same problem also occurs in streaming services like Netflix.

The problem disappears when there is a voice-over narration. In the movie or for example in a documentary.

However, I have 0 issues with YouTube videos or even old stereo movies. Direct or up mixed.

*Current setup *

- Room calibration is done using Onkyo's setup. Also raised center by 5 dB.

- Placed speakers as front as possible to avoid reflection and directly facing the listener.

- Tried with EQ center speaker to raise the 80-400Hz frequency.

However, nothing really helps.

*Example Clips (Nonspoiler i promise) *

[Blade Runner] > url streamableDOTcom/5hbxk5

I only hear it as

"Right Deckard, you blah blah blah skinhead sidewalk"

Also when he says "Four" more to go, I hear it as "Twelve"

ANOTHER EXAMPLE

Clip from ConAir : streamableDOTcom/fg51bk

The lines from Dave Chappelle (the African American actor) is really hard to understand. Totally seem to be mumble.

Same clip with subtitles: streamableDOTcom/chcpfp

Now it totally makes sense. Of course.


I don't understand why that is the case. Once I read the subtitle it totally makes sense. But without it, it's not clear many times.

(Please replace `DOT` in URLs with `.`)
 
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#2 ·
I have trouble understanding movie dialogues no matter what I do or tweak. Help appriciated.

*Example Clips (Nonspoiler i promise) *

[Blade Runner] > url streamableDOTcom/5hbxk5

I only hear it as

"Right Deckard, you blah blah blah skinhead sidewalk"

Also when he says "Four" more to go, I hear it as "Twelve"

You can add a clickable link to your messages by clicking the chain link icon with the world behind it. I had a hell of a job finding the link as you posted it. For anyone else it is https://streamable.com/5hbxk5

I am hearing the link you posted as-
(Other cop) Right Deckard you look almost as bad as that skin job you left on the side walk.

(Other cop) One more to go.

(Deckard) Three, there's three to go.

(Other cop) There's four.

The only thing I am getting different is that I am hearing, 'One more to go' when you are hearing 'Twelve'.

I used to suffer from not being able to understand dialogue, usually female voices. It came to a head when watching Oblivion. Tom Cruise & Olga Kurylenko were having a conversation on top of the remains of the Empire State building. I could hear every word Tom said but Olga sounded like mumbling.

After researching the problem and doing the free stuff, paying attention to positioning the centre speaker to avoid reflections and moving the sofa away from the wall, this improved things. I then added foam acoustic tiles on the wall behind the sofa, (because they were cheap to try). This made things better so the final step was swap out the foam tiles for two 4 inch thick acoustic panels and mount them floating 2 ins of the wall which give an effective thickness of 6 ins, (so the science says), Been like that for three years now and no real problems with dialogue but nothing is perfect. Sometimes it is just bad recording or it might be age related hearing loss.

The funny thing is if there is something I cannot understand, as soon as I look at the subtitles I can then hear it perfectly even if I play it months later.
 
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#6 ·
You can add a clickable link to your messages by clicking the chain link icon with the world behind it. I had a hell of a job finding the link as you posted it. For anyone else it is [/URL]
Sorry, I'm new here. Because of less than 5 points I couldn't paste a link. Sorry about the trouble.

(Other cop) Right Deckard you look almost as bad as that skin job you left on the side walk.

(Other cop) One more to go.

(Deckard) Three, there's three to go.

(Other cop) There's four.

The only thing I am getting different is that I am hearing, 'One more to go' when you are hearing 'Twelve'.

I used to suffer from not being able to understand dialogue, usually female voices. It came to a head when watching Oblivion. Tom Cruise & Olga Kurylenko were having a conversation on top of the remains of the Empire State building. I could hear every word Tom said but Olga sounded like mumbling.

After researching the problem and doing the free stuff, paying attention to positioning the centre speaker to avoid reflections and moving the sofa away from the wall, this improved things. I then added foam acoustic tiles on the wall behind the sofa, (because they were cheap to try). This made things better so the final step was swap out the foam tiles for two 4 inch thick acoustic panels and mount them floating 2 ins of the wall which give an effective thickness of 6 ins, (so the science says), Been like that for three years now and no real problems with dialogue but nothing is perfect. Sometimes it is just bad recording or it might be age related hearing loss.

The funny thing is if there is something I cannot understand, as soon as I look at the subtitles I can then hear it perfectly even if I play it months later.
Yeah I head it as One too sometimes. But never 4 . Not sure if it's just bad dialogue delivery by the actor.

About the last point, that is so me. As soon as I see the subtitle it's like "Oh yeah! Ofcourse he said that". But not always during the movie. I don't know what exactly is missing.
Funny thing is , none of it is an issue with bad quality video recordings from Youtube and even on my phone using TikTok and all. Or even sitcoms or news or other such sources.

The issue is limited to High Quality TV shows and Movies.


Yeah, that probably made things worse. That's the "mud" zone. Take that back down to zero (i.e. no boost), and boost the 2-4 kHz range a few dB. That will give voices more presence.

Listen to the sibilants – “s” and “t” sounds. If they sound subdued, like there’s a sheet over the face, a slight boost in the 6-7 kHz range should help that. Keep in mind however that the prominence of sibilants (or lack thereof) is something that changes from one program to the next.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Thank you for the advice. I will try it and get back to you with the result. I think you're onto something. The dialogue understanding issue is definitely tied to missing sibilants.

Stopping the first sound reflections can help a lot, like having a thick rug between the speakers and you on the floor, if you are not already carpeted, and having acoustic panels on the walls between the speakers and you, or even a tapestry or drapes. Absorbing these early reflected sounds can clear things up quite a bit. Like suggested above, having sound absorption behind your seating position can help as well.

Try running the audio calibration again. I have observed differences in calibrations even with everything seemingly the same, some calibrations sounding better than others. Double check some calibration threads to make sure you are doing it correctly. Having the calibration mic in the wrong position(s) can hurt the final result significantly.

If all the free and cheap things to try do not help, consider getting an upgraded center speaker, if possible.
Thank you for your advice.

My room is well treated, to the point my GF is annoyed AF.

I have definitely done the calibration as accurately as possible and multiple times. The result is always consistent when it comes to the Speaker levels and Distance, even when I did it multiple times.
To eliminate the RoomEQ making it worse, I've tried to watch movies with "Direct" mode as well. That did not help .





I didn't see much mention of how your center speaker is mounted, other than "placed speakers as front as possible". Is it on a shelf? If so, is it all the way forward? How far from a wall is it? Did you try angling the center to point directly to the MLP? Based on your comments about narration and stereo sourced content not having a problem with dialog, it seems the problem could be your center channel. Either how it's setup or just the center channel itself.
Sorry about that. My speaker is as forward as possible. Even a bit more ahead than the shelf.
It is pointed towards the MLP, yes.

Here's a picture for reference : imgurDOTcom/a/fdecyUi

(Sorry about no directl link. My point is still less than 5. Just repalce `DOT` with `.`)
 
#3 · (Edited)
- Tried with EQ center speaker to raise the 80-400Hz frequency.
Yeah, that probably made things worse. That's the "mud" zone. Take that back down to zero (i.e. no boost), and boost the 2-4 kHz range a few dB. That will give voices more presence. If male voices still sound "boomy," try reducing a bit in the 80-100 Hz range, especially if the speaker is inside a cabinet.

Listen to the sibilants – “s” and “t” sounds. If they sound subdued, like there’s a sheet over the face, a slight boost in the 6-7 kHz range should help that. Keep in mind however that the prominence of sibilants (or lack thereof) is something that changes from one program to the next.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
#4 ·
Stopping the first sound reflections can help a lot, like having a thick rug between the speakers and you on the floor, if you are not already carpeted, and having acoustic panels on the walls between the speakers and you, or even a tapestry or drapes. Absorbing these early reflected sounds can clear things up quite a bit. Like suggested above, having sound absorption behind your seating position can help as well.

Try running the audio calibration again. I have observed differences in calibrations even with everything seemingly the same, some calibrations sounding better than others. Double check some calibration threads to make sure you are doing it correctly. Having the calibration mic in the wrong position(s) can hurt the final result significantly.

If all the free and cheap things to try do not help, consider getting an upgraded center speaker, if possible.
 
#5 ·
I didn't see much mention of how your center speaker is mounted, other than "placed speakers as front as possible". Is it on a shelf? If so, is it all the way forward? How far from a wall is it? Did you try angling the center to point directly to the MLP? Based on your comments about narration and stereo sourced content not having a problem with dialog, it seems the problem could be your center channel. Either how it's setup or just the center channel itself.
 
#9 ·
I also have been struggling with the same issue of dialog intelligibility for, well, decades now. And I also have the same situation with having the most difficulty understanding female voices.


Back in the 2000s, I tried three or four center channel speakers, but I could never understand the dialog as well as I could by using "phantom" mode with just the front L/R speakers. So, I ended up sticking with phantom mode for about 10 years.



Recently, however, I decided to try again to use a center speaker. I bought two of them and compared them to each other for about two weeks. It seems that both of them are superior speakers to the ones I tried back in the day. One was a Wharfedale EVO 4.c and the other was a Polk LSiM706C. They both sound very clear and have about the same bass extension. I just could not tell any difference in dialog intelligibility, so I returned the more expensive EVO. The Polk is pretty dang clear, especially if I pull it as far forward on the shelf as I can. But I still have some difficulty with female voices.



I do have some high frequency hearing loss, especially in the right ear, so I'm sure that is some of the problem, but I did have the problem even when my hearing was better. Other factors, IMO, are that some of these actors actually do seem to mumble their lines and don't enunciate well at all, and the way they mix the dialog in the sound track.
 
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#11 ·
Recently, however, I decided to try again to use a center speaker.
One was a Wharfedale EVO 4.c and the other was a Polk LSiM706C. They both sound very clear…
I believe the difference is that both those speakers have the tweeter and midrange vertically arrayed between the woofers, while your previous speakers were probably just a single tweeter between the woofers. From what I understand, the vertical array is a superior design that enhances intelligibility.

For further improvements, you might try the EQ tweaks I suggested in Post #3 .

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
#13 ·
For a mere $10 return fee within 60 days if not happy, why not upgrade to Jamos 3 way center.

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_701C9IICBK/Jamo-Concert-9-Series-C-9-CEN-II-Black-Ash.html?tp=189
Yes, at least. But Crutchfield specs say it weighs only 6.8 pounds??? Can that be possible? I guess it would be an upgrade from the S83. I would never pay $459 for a seven pound speaker. I got my 40 pound Polk LSiM706c center for $349 from adorama on sale.


And I didn't realize how small the OP's center speaker is until I checked. Considering that, and that the center speaker is the most important, I would guess that a center speaker upgrade might be the first order of business.
 
#38 ·
Alright guys, I did the upgrade to C9 CEN II, and here is my observation. I did thorough A/B testing with over 10 different clips and the result is consistent.

Observation 1: There is No audible difference when it comes to dialogue clarity. Maybe both models suck, but I highly doubt so.
Observation 2: When it comes to ambient noises, the new center sticks out like a sore thumb because my FL FR SL SR is different than the center. The "timbre-matching" is real and very very evident.

Here are some clips for your viewing pleasure.

Clip 1: No ambient noise just dialogue. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a blind test. Plus some of the lines are not clear in both the model.

URL : streamableDOTcom/mtnjq0

Clip 2: Same clip I posted in OP. The "four vs one vs twelve" is still not clear. However, if you notice the rain noise, you'll see that it sticks out like a thumb sore with a new setup. With the existing setup, the rain blends in the background perfectly. I'm sure if all my 5 speakers were matching with the Concert Model, this wouldn't be the issue. But "timbre" is surely mismatched here.

URL : streamableDOTcom/d9gntc

Clip 3: Same Con Air clip. Very slight difference but the dialogue delivery by Dave Chapell is still mumble in both setups.

URL: streamableDOTcom/spcnzs

This evident timbre matching situation has also demotivated me from trying out other center speakers because I am sure they will have similar issues as well.
 
#40 ·
Maybe both models suck, but I highly doubt so.
Why not? All you did was swap out one 2-way center with puny 4" woofers for another of the same, from the same brand, just at 3-4x the price and dressed up in a prettier cabinet.

This evident timbre matching situation has also demotivated me from trying out other center speakers because I am sure they will have similar issues as well.
There is no "timbre matching situation" whatsoever.

Try a different decent center from a different manufacturer, with 5.25" or 6.5" woofers, preferably a 3 way design, and hear for yourself. That Infinity RC263 from Amazon is an obvious choice, given Amazon's easy return policy.
 
#41 ·
Well, zorba doesn't have the best bed side manner in these discussions, but he knows what he's talking about. I would suggest taking his advice and try that Infinity RC263 and see what happens. If it's no better for you, just return it.
 
#49 · (Edited)
Alright guys. Got my RC263.

First thing, this thing looks like a beast. It's huge and heavy. Luckily it fit right under my TV.
This thing is a monster. Love how dominating it looks.

url : imgurDOTcom/a/GU1W4KL
url : imgurDOTcom/a/POWbMRg

My old S83 Cen actually looks puny haha.

url : imgurDOTcom/a/kA3RHLn

The only negative thing about the speaker is that it doesn't do banana plugs. So I had to mess with the wires like a caveman.

Now the sound test

I'm reusing the same clips to get consistency . AcceEQ is run, and I verified that in both setting the center is around the same level (~78 db). I have a SPL meter so it should be very accurate.

Clip 1: streamableDOTcom/txb95o

This clip has minimal ambiance noise and very dialogue heavy.

Observations:
- No observable difference in both speakers. The part which confused me the first time ("hump me? hurt me?") is present in both the speakers.
If it was blind test, I couldn't have picked which one is which.

Clip 2: streamableDOTcom/h5espv

This clip has rain ambiance in all the bottom 5 channels, so I like this clip.
And the hat guy's dialogue has confused me.

Is it "four? one? twelve?". Needed to use subtitle to understand.

Observations:
- The dialogue is similar in both speakers. The lines are still not clear in the new speaker. The dialogue is again , very similar in both the setups. RC263 does not improve the situation .
- The rain sounds very difference and I think this is what people refer to as "timbre mismatch". I'm not saying one is better than another, it's just difference. If I had all the 5 speakers of same line, it wouldn't be an issue. I actually prefer RC263's rain effect as is sounds more realistic.

But for now, unless I upgrade all the 5 speakers, this is a deal breaking issue.


Clip 3: streamableDOTcom/xbxyfg

The African American guys it very mumble and not clear at all.

Observations:
- The dialogue is similar in both speakers. The lines are still not clear in the new speaker. The dialogue is again , very similar in both the setups. RC263 does not improve the situation .



Conclusion
So after testing with two different center speakers, I do not see an improvement.
It's fair to say the center speaker is not the issue.

Could be my room, AVR, hearing, or something else.

The hunt continues.

Also it would be great if you can can get me to 5 likes. It's very annoying to not able to post links. Thanks.
 
#50 ·
Yeah, it's a tough problem. Like I posted above, I tried several center speakers around 10 years ago, and none of them gave me as good dialog intelligibility as just running phantom mode with my front L/R speakers.


I think most of the issue is down to:


1. How they mike and mix the sound in some movies.
2. Too many of the actors really do mumble their lines.


I will say, this Polk LSiM706c that I now have has done a better job than any of my previous center speakers. I think the only way to significantly better it, in terms of dialog clarity and intelligibility, would be to go with a highly efficient horn loaded speaker along the lines of the new JBL HDI-4500, but it's pricey. This line of speakers is more like those they use in movie theaters.
 
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#51 ·
The only negative thing about the speaker is that it doesn't do banana plugs. So I had to mess with the wires like a caveman.



I use bananas on my RC263?

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
 
#55 ·
Just as an experiment, could you move one of your towers to the centre spot (vertical) and run Accu-EQ again to test that out? If you continue to have dialogue issues, then I wonder if there's something wrong with the amp channel in the AVR.
A couple of clips that have some VERY difficult dialogue/action combined is the opening scene of Gladiator (thanks Zorba) and Master and Commander just before the final battle with the young cabin boys softly talking to each other before BOOM!
 
#57 · (Edited)
@Snehasis Ghosh
I think you are wasting your time blaming your speakers and trying different models.

In post #34 Snehasis Ghosh said
"Is your native tongue English? Mine is not.
Also, note that understanding dialogue is not an issue when I watch movie in my mother tongue (5.1 or Atmos)."


You have no problem with dialogue in your native tongue but do with English dialogue, so while you can speak and write in English it is strong regional/foreign accents that you cannot understand. I would think this would affect most people. It does me, actors speaking in English with foreign/regional accents are sometimes hard to understand and my native tongue is English.

When listening to the video clips you posted that are recordings of what your speakers are playing it all sounds normal and intelligible to me apart from Dave Chapell who is speaking in a strong regional American accent. With accents there is also the slang element to consider which just adds to the problem.

 
#58 ·
@
You have no problem with dialogue in your native tongue but do with English dialogue, so while you can speak and write in English it is strong regional/foreign accents that you cannot understand. I would think this would affect most people. It does me, actors speaking in English with foreign/regional accents are sometimes hard to understand and my native tongue is English.

When listening to the video clips you posted that are recordings of what your speakers are playing it all sounds normal and intelligible to me apart from Dave Chapell who is speaking in a strong regional American accent. With accents there is also the slang element to consider which just adds to the problem.



Yes I absolutely agree with the fact that accent is making the problem worse in many of the instance.
And mumbling as well.

But then some movies like Black Panther, which is accent heavy, gives me no issue because all the words are mixed well enough to be heard.
And I had no Dave Chappell's Netflix standup gave me no trouble.
Also I've been living in USA for the past 7 years and I deal with accented people all the time. So accents itself is not the whole issue thought it is making it worse.
 
#60 ·
Update

I was experimenting with different setting and the following setting helped me immensely.

Instead of setting the cross over to 80Hz, for the center speaker, I set it down to 50Hz. That has significantly improved the audibility of dialogue. I know the 80Hz is not a hard cutoff but rather a rolling cutoff. I wonder if my Onkyo starts sending the signal down to subwoofer a bit too early. Ideally I would like 0 dialogue to go to subwoofer, but I noticed my subwoofer vibrating even in scenes where only people were speaking (w/o) any music or ambiance noise. This has certainly reduced to a great extend once I made it down to 50Hz.

According to the [official website](https://www.jamo.com/products/s-83-cen#specs), the S83 Cen II can play between
65Hz - 26kHz (+/- 3dB)

I wonder what's going on.

I wish I could make the center "Full Range" , but that's not possible in my AVR without doing the same for the Front L/R.
 
#61 ·
I have been wondering for awhile if you have some other channels bleeding into your sub. I have experienced this in the past. 1. Is your sub cable inserted securely into the AVR. 2. Do you have another cable to switch from the current one going to the sub? 3. Disconnect all speakers except the sub and see if there is dialog coming from the sub.
 
#66 ·
I'm not sure about that. With a crossover, the lower registers of the male voice will play from both the speakers and the subwoofers via bass management. This can result in muddying of dialogue in some systems. Reducing the crossover can help if you are having issues with that.
 
#71 ·
The only problem there becomes bass interactions between speakers and speakers and subs, which is why we try to align bass in mono. But try it and see what you think, if your speakers can handle it.
 
#72 ·
I'm happy this is a modern mixing issue.


And you can check in reddit. Many people have the same issue.



I never had similar issues with Documentary, Animated movies, news etc where people try to enunciate words and not mumble to make it "realistic"
 
#73 · (Edited)
I have trouble understanding movie dialogues no matter what I do or tweak. Help appriciated.

For context my setup :

Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR787

Fronts: Jamo S 807 x 2

Center: Jamo S83 x 1

Rear: Jamo S 801 x 2

Height speakers: Polk Audio OWM3 x 4

Subwoofer : SVS SB12-NSD 12" x 1

*Issue *:
I have trouble understanding dialogue and ended up using subtitles for the most part.

This is all using BlueRay TrueHD or Dolby/DTS uncompressed audio. The same problem also occurs in streaming services like Netflix.

The problem disappears when there is a voice-over narration. In the movie or for example in a documentary.

However, I have 0 issues with YouTube videos or even old stereo movies. Direct or up mixed.

*Current setup *

- Room calibration is done using Onkyo's setup. Also raised center by 5 dB.

- Placed speakers as front as possible to avoid reflection and directly facing the listener.

- Tried with EQ center speaker to raise the 80-400Hz frequency.

However, nothing really helps.

*Example Clips (Nonspoiler i promise) *

[Blade Runner] > url streamableDOTcom/5hbxk5

I only hear it as

"Right Deckard, you blah blah blah skinhead sidewalk"

Also when he says "Four" more to go, I hear it as "Twelve"

ANOTHER EXAMPLE

Clip from ConAir : streamableDOTcom/fg51bk

The lines from Dave Chappelle (the African American actor) is really hard to understand. Totally seem to be mumble.

Same clip with subtitles: streamableDOTcom/chcpfp

Now it totally makes sense. Of course.


I don't understand why that is the case. Once I read the subtitle it totally makes sense. But without it, it's not clear many times.

(Please replace DOT in URLs with .)
Put the center channel in vertical position and report back.

PS: Never Mind. I found the movie on the Roku Channel for free. Played it and the movie audio engineer sucks. It is just a hollow sounding sound. Seems like they never made it to the dubbing studio and just kept the original boom mike recording.
 
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