Paradigm Owners Thread - Page 1226 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #36751 of 38343 Old 01-13-2019, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by tidwelr1 View Post
It was a XPA 3 - gen2. I don’t know what else to tell you other than the emotiva amp to my ears added a bit more sparkle/edge to the top end at louder volumes that I didn’t like. Thats what I heard with my ears. Again, at lower volumes they seemed to sound about the same. As mentioned, I didn’t like the hum coming from the speakers due to the amp as well so I sent it back. I guess I could be in the camp that thinks there can be small differences b/w amps. Denon and Marantz do have a different implementation with their amps in that Marantz uses HDAMs circuit boards which is said to help with music listening. Jdsmoothie mentions this time and again when comparing the differences bw Marantz and Denon in the AVR threads that he frequents. The Marantz seems to me to have a warmer sound than my older 94’ Yamaha top of the line AVR. Is it the HDAMs? I’m not sure. I’ve heard Denon tends to have a little bit different sound compared to Marantz but I haven’t done an A/B comparison. The dealer I dealt with about 6-8 years ago in buying some monitor audio speakers said he liked Marantz AVRs bc he thought they took the edge off as well to his ears.


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I've never owned an Emotiva, but they do seem to have a quite a following and their products have generally been well regarded. Will my beliefs still go more towards that an amp isn't suppose to color the sound, I can't say for sure that's the case for everyone as well all perceive things differently, hence the whole YMMV notion. As for HDAM, yes I am aware that is the difference between Marantz and Denon. I haven't tried a Marantz yet, but may eventually at some point. I was referring to the amplifier section of the Denon X4300H AVR being the same as what is on the Marantz SR7011 and saying that I felt it did sufficiently drive my Studio 100s, but wanted to try a separate amplified to see if I could perceive a difference.



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Originally Posted by leeshanok View Post
In my experience, many years ago when I started venturing into separate amps, I purchased an XPA2 and XPA3 to go with Denon 5800 receiver powering my Studio 100s. First impression was wow, they were detailed and sounded lively. Thought I made a good decision. But after a couple of months adjusting to the sound, I felt there was something missing or not right. The sound was dry, analytical, virtually no-toe-tapping musicality or emotion behind the music. Definitely no warmth. I could not listen for more than 30 minutes before my attention started to wander and my ears stopped listening. Don’t know if you call it ear fatigue or what. I ended up selling them and bought a used Classe 5-ch amp after reading reviews. It was either that or an Anthem P5. It was on a completely different level for sure. Never once experienced ear fatigue with this amp.

I wonder maybe Emotiva amps don’t mate well with Paradigm speakers. But I would have to say, on paper, the Emotiva amps have impressive specs for the price compared to other amps. I think folks who start to branch from receivers to separates looking for better sound quality will inevitable begin with Emotiva amps on top of their list due to the low price.

On a side note, anyone considering a Denon or Marantz receiver should also seriously consider Anthem MRX receivers. I was blowed away by how good they sound when I purchased one. May not have all the bells and whistles, but if sound quality is top priority, then you won’t be disappointed.
That is a new concept for me of adjusting to the sound with adding an amplifier. But l will agree listening fatigue is no fun for sure. They say a "neutral" sounding amp is often preferable, but then again I have also read others saying neutral it too "bright" sounding or perhaps not "warm" enough. But of course you will have many who say all amps sound the same based on a scientific train of thought. I remember Audioholics was asked if all amps sound the same and I think their response was something along the lines of "they do and they don't", which more or less to me describes the whole notion of "your mileage may vary". As for Anthem, yes I would like to try them but since I am always budget minded and I often wait for end of year sales that brings the mainstream brands to what I consider affordable price levels that I don't think I'll ever get a chance to try one.
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post #36752 of 38343 Old 01-13-2019, 09:22 AM
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Will my beliefs still go more towards that an amp isn't suppose to color the sound, I can't say for sure that's the case for everyone as well all perceive things differently, hence the whole YMMV notion.
They should all sound the same, faithfully reproducing the input waveform at higher amplitude.

In practice they distort the signal some. How much, in what way, and whether it is perceived as pleasant is at issue.

The last one us why some prefer the "sound" of some amps.

I think most amps do good at most output levels by design. It's when you get near the limits that the results don't match the design goals.

Two different 300W amps will likely sound the same at 100W out. But at 250W you likely will notice differences.

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post #36753 of 38343 Old 01-13-2019, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ace0001a View Post
I've never owned an Emotiva, but they do seem to have a quite a following and their products have generally been well regarded. Will my beliefs still go more towards that an amp isn't suppose to color the sound, I can't say for sure that's the case for everyone as well all perceive things differently, hence the whole YMMV notion. As for HDAM, yes I am aware that is the difference between Marantz and Denon. I haven't tried a Marantz yet, but may eventually at some point. I was referring to the amplifier section of the Denon X4300H AVR being the same as what is on the Marantz SR7011 and saying that I felt it did sufficiently drive my Studio 100s, but wanted to try a separate amplified to see if I could perceive a difference.
I think emotiva gained a strong following initially and maybe still do bc they setup their amps to have a higher amount of gain out of the box than your typical AVR. People would hook up their emotiva amp and crank it to the level they would normally go to on their AVR or PREPRO. The result was that it was much louder and “wow” everything is “punchier”. I knew about this when I got mine so I went into the AVR menu section where you can lower the gain of an external amp to essentially level match what the AVR was at. The result was that the loudness was then the same at different volume levels. I tried it before and after with the same music to hear the difference and I can easily see where many people would be fooled into thinking that OMG this amp rocks bc they don’t know about the gain setting on the amp. Seems like I read a year or two ago that their newer amps don’t have the gain set higher at the factory like the older generations.

I think it’s a similar phenomenon people have with treble and speaker sound. I think many many people associate treble with clarity. I always notice that the loaner car I get from the dealership has the radio settings set to where the treble is jacked up much higher than flat bc of this.




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post #36754 of 38343 Old 01-13-2019, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by tidwelr1 View Post
I think emotiva gained a strong following initially and maybe still do bc they setup their amps to have a higher amount of gain out of the box than your typical AVR. People would hook up their emotiva amp and crank it to the level they would normally go to on their AVR or PREPRO. The result was that it was much louder and “wow” everything is “punchier”. I knew about this when I got mine so I went into the AVR menu section where you can lower the gain of an external amp to essentially level match what the AVR was at. The result was that the loudness was then the same at different volume levels. I tried it before and after with the same music to hear the difference and I can easily see where many people would be fooled into thinking that OMG this amp rocks bc they don’t know about the gain setting on the amp. Seems like I read a year or two ago that their newer amps don’t have the gain set higher at the factory like the older generations.

I think it’s a similar phenomenon people have with treble and speaker sound. I think many many people associate treble with clarity. I always notice that the loaner car I get from the dealership has the radio settings set to where the treble is jacked up much higher than flat bc of this.




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It's a lot more than that. Usually an AVR's wattage is almost cut in half as soon as you start cranking it and have all channels pushing. That leads to the AVR straining and it starts being harsh to the ears. When you have a good amp, you have your full wattage and the headroom to fully utilize the speakers. That's why you always hear people say their speakers "sing". You get their full potential.

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post #36755 of 38343 Old 01-13-2019, 07:49 PM
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So no premier owners out there?
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post #36756 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I have a pair of 200B with the 500C center in my second system. They sound good, and are a great buy at about 25% off MSRP. At full MSRP, you can find better speakers for the money.
i found a pair of 800F for $1300 used like new from dealer...good deal at that price?
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post #36757 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 05:24 AM
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i found a pair of 800F for $1300 used like new from dealer...good deal at that price?
Definitely! If you can get them to throw in a 600C for $2000 total (or less), you're winning big time.
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post #36758 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 05:40 AM
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Definitely! If you can get them to throw in a 600C for $2000 total (or less), you're winning big time.
unfortunately that's too big for where i have to put center and can only go 500c.
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post #36759 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 05:52 AM
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unfortunately that's too big for where i have to put center and can only go 500c.
Hear ya, I had to go 500C for the same reason. It's not bad sounding at all, just wish I had room for the 600C instead.
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post #36760 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gates View Post
It's a lot more than that. Usually an AVR's wattage is almost cut in half as soon as you start cranking it and have all channels pushing. That leads to the AVR straining and it starts being harsh to the ears. When you have a good amp, you have your full wattage and the headroom to fully utilize the speakers. That's why you always hear people say their speakers "sing". You get their full potential.


Agree. However, I think for “MOST” 5.1 systems in modest size spaces (ie. most living rooms) ...an AVR is sufficient to drive a system loud (excluding ear bleed or hearing damage levels) enough without distortion. Unless, you have difficult to drive speakers.



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post #36761 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 07:39 AM
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Hear ya, I had to go 500C for the same reason. It's not bad sounding at all, just wish I had room for the 600C instead.
so you got 800f and 500c...they power hungry? i have a denon 3300 and dont want to upgrade.
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post #36762 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 07:47 AM
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so you got 800f and 500c...they power hungry? i have a denon 3300 and dont want to upgrade.
No, I have 200B and 500C. I wish they had used the 6.5" drivers in the 500C, but oh well. There just isn't room on that rack for the 600C, or I would have gone 200B/600C. I went with 200B not because there wasn't room for the towers - the 200B on stands are basically the same size - but more because the 200B on stands are much less visually imposing, and with a good subwoofer up there (PSA S1510) I didn't really need the extra bass extension from the 800F.

I run the system on a little NR1607, and it's got enough power for the small room that system is in. The 3300 can certainly drive the 800F/500C with no problem.
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post #36763 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
so you got 800f and 500c...they power hungry? i have a denon 3300 and dont want to upgrade.
No, I have 200B and 500C. I wish they had used the 6.5" drivers in the 500C, but oh well. There just isn't room on that rack for the 600C, or I would have gone 200B/600C. I went with 200B not because there wasn't room for the towers - the 200B on stands are basically the same size - but more because the 200B on stands are much less visually imposing, and with a good subwoofer up there (PSA S1510) I didn't really need the extra bass extension from the 800F.

I run the system on a little NR1607, and it's got enough power for the small room that system is in. The 3300 can certainly drive the 800F/500C with no problem.
Yeah I’m able to get the 800F/500C combo for $2k otd. Seems like a good deal?
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post #36764 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 06:47 PM
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Need some help and info from you guys. My uncle, who was a huge audio geek, recently passed away. He had numerous sets of various types of speakers. He loved to tweak and dissemble some of them and play Frankenstein with them. He has a pair of Paradigm Prestige. Not sure exact model# either 95,85 or 75F. The tweeters and crossovers are missing from both. No idea where they went. I've looked online for parts but haven't not found any for this particular model. Could I use a crossover or tweeter from another model speaker? Anything I should look for to make sure they are compatible? and are they even worth trying to repair?
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post #36765 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 07:29 PM
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Call or email Paradigm, they definitely sell replacement parts. Look on the back for the model number, is there not a sticker on each one near the binding posts?
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post #36766 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 08:18 PM
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Call or email Paradigm, they definitely sell replacement parts. Look on the back for the model number, is there not a sticker on each one near the binding posts?
Make sure your sitting down when you get the prices
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post #36767 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 09:23 PM
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Make sure your sitting down when you get the prices





L M A O !!!

thats the gospel truth.
they wanted close to 200 bucks for a studio 80-v1 tweeter to rebuild one for me.
i got a vifa replacement for 20 bucks, sounded fabtastic!


thanks for the laugh man, that was spot on !
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post #36768 of 38343 Old 01-14-2019, 11:27 PM
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they wanted close to 200 bucks for a studio 80-v1 tweeter to rebuild one for me.
i got a vifa replacement for 20 bucks, sounded fabtastic!
May have sounded good but it's not the same.

You could replace all the drivers and crossovers with generic parts, but then you'd have a generic speaker in a pretty cabinet.
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post #36769 of 38343 Old 01-15-2019, 11:10 AM
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L M A O !!!

thats the gospel truth.
they wanted close to 200 bucks for a studio 80-v1 tweeter to rebuild one for me.
i got a vifa replacement for 20 bucks, sounded fabtastic!


thanks for the laugh man, that was spot on !

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Originally Posted by ST Dog View Post
May have sounded good but it's not the same.

You could replace all the drivers and crossovers with generic parts, but then you'd have a generic speaker in a pretty cabinet.

It's a shame replacement parts are that expensive, but then again if it's from an old speaker and they have to make one, well that's the reason since essentially it's a custom part at that point. That said, if used is not an option and you have to go with an off the shelf part because you can't justify the cost is reasonable so long as you're ok with it. I agree it's not the same and if I were forced to do that. I'd swap all the tweeters out in my front soundstage LCR just so to keep the timbre matching.
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post #36770 of 38343 Old 01-15-2019, 05:22 PM
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Got my 800F towers today, so pretty.

Waiting for the center to arrive...
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post #36771 of 38343 Old 01-15-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
Got my 800F towers today, so pretty.

Waiting for the center to arrive...

Look forward to your thoughts once you've got them all set up!
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post #36772 of 38343 Old 01-15-2019, 09:41 PM
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May have sounded good but it's not the same.

You could replace all the drivers and crossovers with generic parts, but then you'd have a generic speaker in a pretty cabinet.
i listened to the original speakers for close to 20 years, so i know what they sounded like.
the new vifa after it broke in, sounded better than the original.
i replaced all my tweets with the same thing after hearing it.


i have damn good hearing, and am very picky ,trust me.


paradigm has no magic tweeters
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post #36773 of 38343 Old 01-15-2019, 09:56 PM
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i listened to the original speakers for close to 20 years, so i know what they sounded like.
the new vifa after it broke in, sounded better than the original.
Great. It still doesn't sound like the original.
If you like it better, good for you, but it's not the sound Paradigm designed.

I've listened to mine for 20 yrs too. I can't be sure they haven't degraded some. Still sound great to me, but as good as new? Doubt it.

Of course other gear has changed too. New sources, new AVRs, new house.
Hard to compare today with 20 yrs ago.

I think it's overall better, but the speakers obviously didn't get better.
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post #36774 of 38343 Old 01-16-2019, 03:38 AM
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20 years is a long time, even in a slower paced industry like this audio one. Something tells me that, depending on how well-designed they are, drivers 20 years newer would sound better, even if the sound produced is not what Paradigm originally designed. I like the newest Paradigm speakers, but I didn't like the previous Monitor series before the current Monitor SE series, in large part due to the tweeters.

Then again, some people do like what they're used to, so something that's newer or is technically more accurate, may not be the most desired outcome. Buy what you like and can afford, but be certain that what you get, is really what you want.
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Originally Posted by Kevin. W View Post
Prefer to take studies and reviews for what they are. I do my listening with my ears. I've owned Paradigm for 20+ years. Monitors, Studios, now Prestige. I know what I'm hearing, and its a huge improvement over my Studios. Maybe you should give them a test drive not just a quick listen, instead of quoting scripture.

https://hometheaterreview.com/paradi...aker-reviewed/
https://www.stereophile.com/content/...5f-loudspeaker
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...system-review/

Few reviews to show how well liked these speakers are.
I have a pair of Studio 60v5's. Bought them off the floor at a discount since the Prestige line was coming out. I thought they were amazing and it was my first step into home audio. A couple months later, I purchased a Prestige 55C off the floor for my center channel. I listened critically and I will say to my ears with 100% certainty that the Prestige line is much much clearer sound. Since then, I went with the 85F's and moved the studios to the new basement HT I'm working on. I still love the Studio line, but I would say the Prestige line is much "better" and both are fantastic.

As an aside note, I learned a lot from the Studio line...I auditioned hard for my next set of towers at the 85F price point. Focal, Martin Logan, B&W...but never the Revel...KEF...lots of them. Most were side by side in the same room with the same source at a dealer in Atlanta. Took my dad. He is usually quiet about such things, but even he totally agreed that the Paradigms sounded "better" to us. So, I got them and might be a paradigm guy for life. I would be amazed if I hear anything better. One day, I'd like to have the 3F's, but it is out of my range for awhile.

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post #36776 of 38343 Old 01-16-2019, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
i listened to the original speakers for close to 20 years, so i know what they sounded like.
the new vifa after it broke in, sounded better than the original.
i replaced all my tweets with the same thing after hearing it.

i have damn good hearing, and am very picky ,trust me.

paradigm has no magic tweeters

No, but you need to take the whole design of the speaker in mind. You might do a swap and get good results, you might not. As for break-in? Well, not a big believer in that myself. It doesn't take days to weeks to months, so I might chalk that up to getting used to the sound rather than break-in. Not everyone will agree.....


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I would be amazed if I hear anything better. One day, I'd like to have the 3F's, but it is out of my range for awhile.

I love 'em too! BUT - if you ever have a chance, definitely give Totem Acoustic a listen. I found them simply magical. Another Canadian company. One of the reasons I own both. Not that they're Canadian, they just both are amazing brands in my opinion with some fantastic offerings.

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #36777 of 38343 Old 01-16-2019, 09:25 AM
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20 years is a long time, even in a slower paced industry like this audio one. Something tells me that, depending on how well-designed they are, drivers 20 years newer would sound better, even if the sound produced is not what Paradigm originally designed. I like the newest Paradigm speakers, but I didn't like the previous Monitor series before the current Monitor SE series, in large part due to the tweeters.

Then again, some people do like what they're used to, so something that's newer or is technically more accurate, may not be the most desired outcome. Buy what you like and can afford, but be certain that what you get, is really what you want.

I've owned Monitor v1 and v5 speakers and most recently, I owned a complete Monitor series 7 setup and enjoyed them very much. When Paradigm came out with the Monitor series 7 (v7), they changed from Titanium to Aluminum on the tweeters. It's part of the whole "trickle" down effect with technology since previously they only used aluminum tweeters on their Studio and above lines. I then found a used pair of Studio 100 v4 towers locally, which then had me upgrade to a CC-690v4 center channel. So currently I am running a mix of Studio v4s for the LCR and Monitor v7 for surrounds. Though I am curious what the current Monitor SE and Premier lines sound like, I'm very satisfied with my current setup.
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post #36778 of 38343 Old 01-17-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ace0001a View Post
I ended up going with a Crown XLS1502 Drivecore 2-Channel Pro amp that outputs 300 watts per channel. For my Studio 100 v4s, that seemed to do the trick as to my ears it did indeed "open them up" with the mids and mid bass sounding more impactful. Now I won't go as far as saying this should be the case for everyone. I can't even say it's scientific, merely it's based on my perception. The only expression I would say is "your mileage may vary", hence it may work differently in your situation, or be different in your experience...
When I implemented my Emotiva XPA 3 Gen 2, this was my perception as well.
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Music Room 5.1.2: L/R Paradigm Prestige 85F, Prestige CC55, CI Elite E80-A (Atmos), CI Elite E65-R, HSU VTF-15H MK2 sub, Onkyo TXNR-838, Emotiva XPA3 Gen2.
Samsung 65" JS9500 and Sony UBP-X800
Room: 13' X 11'6" X 14' Fairly new audioholic
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post #36779 of 38343 Old 01-17-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tidwelr1 View Post
It was a XPA 3 - gen2. I don’t know what else to tell you other than the emotiva amp to my ears added a bit more sparkle/edge to the top end at louder volumes that I didn’t like. Thats what I heard with my ears. Again, at lower volumes they seemed to sound about the same. As mentioned, I didn’t like the hum coming from the speakers due to the amp as well so I sent it back. I guess I could be in the camp that thinks there can be small differences b/w amps. Denon and Marantz do have a different implementation with their amps in that Marantz uses HDAMs circuit boards which is said to help with music listening. Jdsmoothie mentions this time and again when comparing the differences bw Marantz and Denon in the AVR threads that he frequents. The Marantz seems to me to have a warmer sound than my older 94’ Yamaha top of the line AVR. Is it the HDAMs? I’m not sure. I’ve heard Denon tends to have a little bit different sound compared to Marantz but I haven’t done an A/B comparison. The dealer I dealt with about 6-8 years ago in buying some monitor audio speakers said he liked Marantz AVRs bc he thought they took the edge off as well to his ears.


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I found Marantz warm. I also discovered that their room correction software rolls off the highs on purpose. Their full room correction does this...there are various levels to the thing. There are a lot of neat features with that, but I have turned most of them off. I set it to a flat response and the highs are there and it sounds good...my Onkyo also does well with the highs. For my part, I have it powering a pair of Studio 60v5 and two angled in ceiling pro series from paradigm. The forum for the Marantz 7013 is very helpful. There is a guy on there that replies pretty quickly and knows the thing inside and out. He helped me with the "warmness" of the sound.

Music Room 5.1.2: L/R Paradigm Prestige 85F, Prestige CC55, CI Elite E80-A (Atmos), CI Elite E65-R, HSU VTF-15H MK2 sub, Onkyo TXNR-838, Emotiva XPA3 Gen2.
Samsung 65" JS9500 and Sony UBP-X800
Room: 13' X 11'6" X 14' Fairly new audioholic
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post #36780 of 38343 Old 01-17-2019, 01:44 PM
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Paradigm Owners Thread

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Originally Posted by GTDTS View Post
I found Marantz warm. I also discovered that their room correction software rolls off the highs on purpose. Their full room correction does this...there are various levels to the thing. There are a lot of neat features with that, but I have turned most of them off. I set it to a flat response and the highs are there and it sounds good...my Onkyo also does well with the highs. For my part, I have it powering a pair of Studio 60v5 and two angled in ceiling pro series from paradigm. The forum for the Marantz 7013 is very helpful. There is a guy on there that replies pretty quickly and knows the thing inside and out. He helped me with the "warmness" of the sound.


Yeap, you’re correct. The house curve for audyssey does roll off the highs some and I happen to really like it that way. It’s not fatiguing at all, and I enjoy movies at home exponentially more than I did when I had a paradigm monitor setup with a yammy powering the system years ago. Of course, I have studios for the fronts now as well with a real sub. As a side note though, years ago I remember going to a dealer and sitting in a room with a system powered by the top of the line Marantz AVR when they weighed over 50 lbs and Marantz was using the rotary dial on the front of their AVRs. Anyways, I remember thinking it was the crown jewel of receivers and I couldn’t afford one bc they were really expensive comparatively back then. Marantz definitely wasn’t as mainstream as they are now, and I remember how warm and inviting the system sounded. You could sit for days and never get tired of it. This was before the room correction software was around....like 15-20 years ago. So, I think Marantz stuff tends to be warmer sounding in general. That’s been my perception of their stuff for a long time now.


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Last edited by tidwelr1; 01-17-2019 at 03:09 PM.
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