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post #37231 of 40547 Old 10-11-2017, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by keeper View Post
With the great news of our buddy Falconfan getting his new speakers I'd like to say that a pair of BP7000sc is in my future- pick up this weekend. Will be comparing directly to my bp3000s which I like a lot.
Wow the old Def Techs are getting serious love here lately.

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post #37232 of 40547 Old 10-11-2017, 05:36 PM
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Gene is actually a big fan of Sandy's, he knows and likes all of Sandy's DefTech's pretty well, but also has been pretty kind to the newer stuff as well.
In general, his stance with Small -vs Large and a Full Range speaker tends to be, if the speaker will play clean down to 40hz, has a smooth natural roll off, and you have plenty of Sub. Set it to Large and let the speaker design handle the crossover roll off for that channel.
Yup, for these speakers in my opinion they sound/perform/measure better as a full range speaker (in my case, "small" with 40hz crossover to get extra reinforcement from the sub, which also handles the LFE channel) and letting the internals distribute the full signal as much as possible within the speaker. It sounded better in the mid bass especially and generally more balanced. The dial on back was set to the 12 o'clock position and after running Audyssey XT32 it measured really good and balanced in a wider area of the room. The 8000 and 9000 series are exceptional speakers and perform really well (I'm mostly HT).

When I tried them with the built-in subs as LFE, there was just something slightly lacking. Like I said, the -3dB point was in the 120hz range for the F/L (which has been confirmed now that it probably was 125hz). Most likely room dependent especially since being able to locate each tower optimally for F/L and Sub/LFE is difficult and generally should be used only if a separate sub is not available. They are advertised as a sub and it's good to have the option and flexibility to test what works best for you, but I think the speakers were designed as a full range speaker (with internal distribution) that works best with a separate sub, which is why they recommend it as such.

But like I've been saying, you will need to try it out. I'm not saying my opinions are fact just want to make sure you understand your options.

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post #37233 of 40547 Old 10-11-2017, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
And I’m confused as hell as to how to set up these towers! lol

I ordered some 10awg speaker wire, a Monster Y-Adapter, and two 9’ Monolith sub cables. I’ll figure it out somehow! lol


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post #37234 of 40547 Old 10-11-2017, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Yup, for these speakers in my opinion they sound/perform/measure better as a full range speaker (in my case, "small" with 40hz crossover to get extra reinforcement from the sub, which also handles the LFE channel) and letting the internals distribute the full signal as much as possible within the speaker. It sounded better in the mid bass especially and generally more balanced. The dial on back was set to the 12 o'clock position and after running Audyssey XT32 it measured really good and balanced in a wider area of the room. The 8000 and 9000 series are exceptional speakers and perform really well (I'm mostly HT).



When I tried them with the built-in subs as LFE, there was just something slightly lacking. Like I said, the -3dB point was in the 120hz range for the F/L (which has been confirmed now that it probably was 125hz). Most likely room dependent especially since being able to locate each tower optimally for F/L and Sub/LFE is difficult and generally should be used only if a separate sub is not available. They are advertised as a sub and it's good to have the option and flexibility to test what works best for you, but I think the speakers were designed as a full range speaker (with internal distribution) that works best with a separate sub, which is why they recommend it as such.



But like I've been saying, you will need to try it out. I'm not saying my opinions are fact just want to make sure you understand your options.


I’m understanding this a little more.. thanks! When all of you start throwing out numbers and +/-db’s and octaves and frequencies I’m as lost as last years Easter eggs!


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post #37235 of 40547 Old 10-11-2017, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
I’m understanding this a little more.. thanks! When all of you start throwing out numbers and +/-db’s and octaves and frequencies I’m as lost as last years Easter eggs!


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Here's what you do...

Start with making sure both the Sub outputs on the receiver are set to Mono (one Sub, two Subs, five Subs, doesn't matter, you don't want stereo Subs)
Place your Sub, connect it to either of the LFE outputs. Leave it alone from there....(except if you need to do an adjustment in the Sub itself)

Then, set your Fronts to Large, adjust the volume dials for the subs on the speakers according to taste.
-Listen for a bit-

Next, reset the Fronts to Small w/ a 40Hz crossover, readjust the volume dials on the speakers if needed.
-Listen a bit-

Then simply repeat this process by increasing the crossover frequency by 10hz at a time until you get to 150Hz.

Simply make a note of which settings sounded best to you in your room.

Then...
With the receiver still set to Small and 150Hz, connect the Y splitter to the other LFE output and cables to the Fronts.
** At this time, move your Sub to the rear of the room, if it isn't already, preferably between the Fronts, creating a large V pattern front to rear in your space. If you can't do this, it's not the end of the world, but you want to mirror the Subs in the Front best you can, at the very least get it behind the seats somewhere if at all possible.**
(The correct placement for one Sub, is almost never the correct placement for two or more)

Then reverse the process with the crossover settings, Listen - drop 10Hz - Listen - drop 10 Hz, until it just doesn't sound right.

Then simply choose the setup you like best.
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post #37236 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by keeper View Post
With the great news of our buddy Falconfan getting his new speakers I'd like to say that a pair of BP7000sc is in my future- pick up this weekend. Will be comparing directly to my bp3000s which I like a lot.
Me want. U give.
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post #37237 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 06:23 AM
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Is this a correct statement? If front speakers are set to Large then there’s no crossover? At that point they are full range? And, doesn’t that take bass away from the sub?


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post #37238 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
Is this a correct statement? If front speakers are set to Large then there’s no crossover? At that point they are full range? And, doesn’t that take bass away from the sub?


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I believe so that's the way it works. What is your first impression of the towers? I probably missed it.

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post #37239 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
I believe so that's the way it works. What is your first impression of the towers? I probably missed it.

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I don’t have them set up (hooked up) yet. I ordered new 10awg speaker wire and Monolith sub cables and awaiting those. I should have them by tomorrow.


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post #37240 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
I don’t have them set up (hooked up) yet. I ordered new 10awg speaker wire and Monolith sub cables and awaiting those. I should have them by tomorrow.


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Ok great. I'll try and keep closer attention tomorrow then. Must be driving you nuts you can't just hook them up?

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post #37241 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 06:54 AM
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[QUOTE=Falconsfan71;54940258]Is this a correct statement? If front speakers are set to Large then there’s no crossover? At that point they are full range? And, doesn’t that take bass away from the sub?


Yes, if your fronts are set to large then they are full range. The sub will output LFE channel.
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post #37242 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
Ok great. I'll try and keep closer attention tomorrow then. Must be driving you nuts you can't just hook them up?

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Yes it is! But I need a lot of time when I do that. It’s a lot of work and very time consuming. Connecting banana plugs, moving current front speakers to spare room, sliding out tv console, sliding out AVR, disconnecting wires, connecting new wires, moving towers to living room, adding two more power cords (will have to add another surge protector), placement, tweaking, cable and wire organizing behind tv console, putting everything back, and then run Audyssey with more adjusting and tweaking. I need a whole day! You all know what I’m talking about as most of you have done this longer than me.


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post #37243 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
Yes it is! But I need a lot of time when I do that. It’s a lot of work and very time consuming. Connecting banana plugs, moving current front speakers to spare room, sliding out tv console, sliding out AVR, disconnecting wires, connecting new wires, moving towers to living room, adding two more power cords (will have to add another surge protector), placement, tweaking, cable and wire organizing behind tv console, putting everything back, and then run Audyssey with more adjusting and tweaking. I need a whole day! You all know what I’m talking about as most of you have done this longer than me.


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Yeah it's a lot of work for a big pay off. Have fun with it. In he the end you'll have a great system.

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post #37244 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 07:50 AM
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Is this a correct statement? If front speakers are set to Large then there’s no crossover? At that point they are full range? And, doesn’t that take bass away from the sub?


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If set to large, your separate sub would only play LFE channel.

I think your AVR has Audyssey XT32, which has good sub EQ filter. Set up your speakers and sub (use the HSU recommended settings for auto calibration on the sub) and run it. Make sure all settings that alter the sound on your AVR are disabled other than Audyssey. By default sometimes settings like loudness management are enabled. From Audyssey settings keep Dynamic EQ enabled but turn off the dynamic volume.

Play a bunch of movies with bass that you are familiar with. If you have an SPL meter and test sounds, play them and make sure they're balanced.

Then try switching speaker settings to "small" but keep the lowest crossover which should be 40hz. Test movies etc.

Keep raising incrementally and test same movie scenes.

For me, the best results were with small/40hz. Best of both worlds with nice clear and precise front stage with nice reinforced bass on low end. On Large/full, I was taking away from the optimally placed killer sub a little too much. On higher crossovers like 90 or 100hz I was taking away from the front speakers a little too much. 60hz and 80hz were fine but 40 yielded best results measuring and by ear.

Running the front subs as LFE provided me the least favorable results, probably due to reasons discussed earlier with how the speakers are designed. I'd rather have a good separate sub optimally placed over 2 subs forced in the front with crossovers at 125hz.

But just try them all out. YMMV

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post #37245 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
If set to large, your separate sub would only play LFE channel.

I think your AVR has Audyssey XT32, which has good sub EQ filter. Set up your speakers and sub (use the HSU recommended settings for auto calibration on the sub) and run it. Make sure all settings that alter the sound on your AVR are disabled other than Audyssey. By default sometimes settings like loudness management are enabled. From Audyssey settings keep Dynamic EQ enabled but turn off the dynamic volume.

Play a bunch of movies with bass that you are familiar with. If you have an SPL meter and test sounds, play them and make sure they're balanced.

Then try switching speaker settings to "small" but keep the lowest crossover which should be 40hz. Test movies etc.

Keep raising incrementally and test same movie scenes.

For me, the best results were with small/40hz. Best of both worlds with nice clear and precise front stage with nice reinforced bass on low end. On Large/full, I was taking away from the optimally placed killer sub a little too much. On higher crossovers like 90 or 100hz I was taking away from the front speakers a little too much. 60hz and 80hz were fine but 40 yielded best results measuring and by ear.

Running the front subs as LFE provided me the least favorable results, probably due to reasons discussed earlier with how the speakers are designed. I'd rather have a good separate sub optimally placed over 2 subs forced in the front with crossovers at 125hz.

But just try them all out. YMMV

So you have towers also? Yes, the x4300h has MultEQ XT32 and dual sub EQ. I am curious to try both ways but would the dual sub EQ not improve the tower subs if connected together as Sub 1 through LFE?


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post #37246 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
So you have towers also? Yes, the x4300h has MultEQ XT32 and dual sub EQ. I am curious to try both ways but would the dual sub EQ not improve the tower subs if connected together as Sub 1 through LFE?


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Yes, I have two towers. Yes the dual sub EQ will improve and "correct" the subs in the front and it seemed to do a good job. The main reason I'm not a fan of the LFE approach for the towers, it just didn't sound as good in my case compared to the other setups. I think it has something to do with the internal cross-overs of the speakers and how they distribute the incoming signal. They just seemed to sound and perform better closer to a full range speaker or small/40/60/80, and letting the HSU do the heavy lifting of LFE and the deeper notes.

In other cases, maybe others find the opposite is true. That's why you should try each way but there's no "correct" or "wrong" way that's definitive.
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post #37247 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 10:30 AM
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How does the Mythos 7 pair with SM65's? I need a slim center and it seem to fit the bill.
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post #37248 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 10:32 AM
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How does the Mythos 7 pair with SM65's? I need a slim center and it seem to fit the bill.


My understanding is they’re essentially the same, other than the 7 using smaller drivers. I think they’d mesh very well.


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Falconfan71 you are really over analyzing things. You don?t want to set any speakers to large. You want to set to 80-120hz for all your speakers. Pc2000 really cant produce much bass and pm600 can?t either. If you set 8080 to 40hz and run lfe cable to each tower you are cutting the potential down of what you can do.

The 8080 are like having two svs pb2000. Maybe a little less bass from 20-30hz but close. The 8080 in your room from 30-80hz should hit 115-120db by themselves. Which is far great then the svs pb2000.

If I had your setup I?d do this. All speakers set to 100hz. Run lfe with y splitter to 8080 towers. Other lfe to hsu. I?d run hsu wide open at both ports open. Also on hsu I?d set crossover to 60-70hz and run it a bit hot. Also do not use dynamic eq or volume on denon. Just will ruin sound. You should be getting 115-125db of spl from 20-100hz.

Setting them to large with running lfe will make things seems blah and bass will go way down. You will even think why you even bought 8080. Even the hsu will seem lifeless. You want all frequencies below crossover point sent to lfe ch.
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I have to agree with Tim's recommendation at least for the Bp3000s. I tried all 3 ways and with them set to large I was not impressed at all. Ran lfe cable to both and the bass was so much better. Don't know if that would also be true for the 8080s.
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And here in lies the rub, unless you were listening in his room, even with the same speakers, you wouldn't get the same results, that's we he needs to try all the options, everything else is just a guess from what had worked in "other" rooms.
If you have enough sub, and proper placement out of the way, 90% of what is left, is how the room effects the bass, and every room is unique.

My earlier suggestion for setup was for the Fronts and Sub only, all the other speakers should be set to small and crossed over appropriately for that individual speaker.

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Originally Posted by keeper View Post
I have to agree with Tim's recommendation at least for the Bp3000s. I tried all 3 ways and with them set to large I was not impressed at all. Ran lfe cable to both and the bass was so much better. Don't know if that would also be true for the 8080s.
Yes, butt in sheer bass output, that's like comparing a lion to a house cat.
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post #37253 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy1180 View Post
Falconfan71 you are really over analyzing things. You don?t want to set any speakers to large. You want to set to 80-120hz for all your speakers. Pc2000 really cant produce much bass and pm600 can?t either. If you set 8080 to 40hz and run lfe cable to each tower you are cutting the potential down of what you can do.

The 8080 are like having two svs pb2000. Maybe a little less bass from 20-30hz but close. The 8080 in your room from 30-80hz should hit 115-120db by themselves. Which is far great then the svs pb2000.

If I had your setup I?d do this. All speakers set to 100hz. Run lfe with y splitter to 8080 towers. Other lfe to hsu. I?d run hsu wide open at both ports open. Also on hsu I?d set crossover to 60-70hz and run it a bit hot. Also do not use dynamic eq or volume on denon. Just will ruin sound. You should be getting 115-125db of spl from 20-100hz.

Setting them to large with running lfe will make things seems blah and bass will go way down. You will even think why you even bought 8080. Even the hsu will seem lifeless. You want all frequencies below crossover point sent to lfe ch.


Me over analyze? What? No way!

Def Tech recommends speaker wire only, set to Large, manually adjust subs. Others have also suggested this. But I agree with you and @keeper to run cable to LFE and let Denon dual sub EQ do its thing. Also, the lower the hz setting in the front speakers the more bass you’re taking away from the sub, right? By the way, it’s PM800 surrounds!


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post #37254 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 03:07 PM
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And here in lies the rub, unless you were listening in his room, even with the same speakers, you wouldn't get the same results, that's we he needs to try all the options, everything else is just a guess from what had worked in "other" rooms.

If you have enough sub, and proper placement out of the way, 90% of what is left, is how the room effects the bass, and every room is unique.



My earlier suggestion for setup was for the Fronts and Sub only, all the other speakers should be set to small and crossed over appropriately for that individual speaker.

Yes, if I tried that option of course the center and surrounds would be set to Small.


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Denon X4300H * Def Tech BP8080st front L/R * Def Tech CLR2002 center * Def Tech ProMonitor 800 surrounds (x4) * Hsu VTF-3 MK5 HP sub * Outlaw OAW4 wireless sub kit * Vizio 60" 4K HDRtv * Sony UBP-X800 Bluray * PS4 * AC Infinity S9 AVR fan
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post #37255 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
Me over analyze? What? No way!

Def Tech recommends speaker wire only, set to Large, manually adjust subs. Others have also suggested this. But I agree with you and @keeper to run cable to LFE and let Denon dual sub EQ do its thing. Also, the lower the hz setting in the front speakers the more bass you’re taking away from the sub, right? By the way, it’s PM800 surrounds!


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You're not taking away from the sub (the towers have a woofer that plays low frequencies from a filtered channel)....it sounds like you're confusing yourself a little bit, and Tim's response seems to misunderstand the setup being recommended and he's still tending to offer opinion as a fact, which I always caution against.

As I keep saying, you have a couple options and there's reasons DefTech, calibrators, Audyssey, and AVS posters have recommendations too. Tim is giving his opinion on his setup, doesn't mean it's "best" for you or even correct. Just play with it a bit.

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post #37256 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 04:09 PM
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Anyone have a clue when the current sale on DT’s site for 20% off BP9000 with a free center is over? All I can find on the site is “Limited Time Offer”.
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post #37257 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 04:41 PM
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Anyone have a clue when the current sale on DT’s site for 20% off BP9000 with a free center is over? All I can find on the site is “Limited Time Offer”.


I’m sure it will be over fast. That’s a pretty good deal. I tested it on their website and when you add two towers and a matching center to the cart then apply the promo code it works!


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post #37258 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 05:39 PM
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Also, the lower the hz setting in the front speakers the more bass you’re taking away from the sub, right?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
You're not taking away from the sub (the towers have a woofer that plays low frequencies from a filtered channel)....it sounds like you're confusing yourself a little bit, and Tim's response seems to misunderstand the setup being recommended and he's still tending to offer opinion as a fact, which I always caution against.

As I keep saying, you have a couple options and there's reasons DefTech, calibrators, Audyssey, and AVS posters have recommendations too. Tim is giving his opinion on his setup, doesn't mean it's "best" for you or even correct. Just play with it a bit.
^^This^^
Don't think of it as taking away bass from the Sub, the Sub will still be playing "All" of the bass from the LFE channel, what crossovers do is tell the AVR what frequencies you want to "add" to the Sub. The reason for this is for speakers that can't play the lower portion of the Full Range signal, because of their size or design.
But... The 8080's are not that type of speaker, they will competently play most of a Full Range signal.

FYI..
Full range for all positions except Atmos upfiring modules and the LFE channel is 20Hz-20,000Hz, (LFE channel is 120Hz-3Hz) and most soundtracks will not dip below 30Hz in those channels. (Esp. Original mixes, Pre 2010 or Pre BluRay)
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*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html

Last edited by ALtlOff; 10-14-2017 at 12:23 AM.
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post #37259 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 07:52 PM
 
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This has gotten funny.

I?m sorry pm800 falconfan71
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post #37260 of 40547 Old 10-12-2017, 08:26 PM
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Has anybody heard any feedback about the new Demand series speakers? I might be looking into the D7s over the SM45s if they get good reviews.

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