Definitive Owners Thread - Page 1307 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 3505Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #39181 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 09:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 682
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
I don’t even run my 8080’s full range. I don’t feel good about having 5.25” much less 4.5” drivers as full range.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Other than potentially not hearing bass sounds in the front channels and decreasing speaker and amp efficiency there's nothing really wrong with running them full-range. As long as volume levels are reasonable they'll naturally roll off down low, but if loud volumes are preferred and/or bass frequencies boosted then definitely better to cross them over. As crossovers aren't a 'brick wall' stopping point a crossover point of 60 Hz with a 12 dB/octave slope means that a given speaker is still getting -6 dB or so of 45 Hz information even with it on.

What can vary is the crossover slope in a given receiver. 12 dB/octave (2nd order) is pretty common for the high-pass on speakers but some are as high as 18 or 24, and I know I prefer to run my speakers in my car at 60 Hz but with a 24 dB/octave cross so that lower bass gets silenced quickly and aggressively.
KSpan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #39182 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 09:53 AM
Member
 
alfa1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
I don’t even run my 8080’s full range. I don’t feel good about having 5.25” much less 4.5” drivers as full range.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's possible I am misunderstanding what people are saying, but I think The Prisoner is setting up his towers exactly as recommended by Def Tech and Sandy Gross when there is no external subwoofer present. Powered towers set to LARGE, subs set to YES, LFE cables to subs in the towers. In this setup, I believe the LFE signal goes to the powered subs, and the full range signal not including LFE goes to the towers via speaker-wire. The internal crossover in the speaker prevents low frequency signals going to the mid-woofers, it sends them to the powered subs, right? So there wouldn't be an issue with the mid-drivers being overloaded I think.


Now, when using an external sub or subs, if you choose speakers LARGE, sub YES, then only the LFE is sent to the external sub, so if you have a much more capable sub than is in your towers, you are missing out on the better reproduction of very low frequency content not in the LFE channel that your external sub can give - is that what you are getting at? The counterargument is that by setting the towers to small with an external sub, you are losing the low frequency blending designed into the speaker which is presumably better than your AV receiver can do, and you lose the benefits of essentially 3 or more "subwoofers" in your room which helps smooth bass peaks and nulls. I think that is why Definitive and Sandy Gross recommend powered towers be set to LARGE even when LFE is connected to an external sub. I suppose if you are sending LFE to BOTH your external sub and your tower subs (like Falconsfan is doing I think), than setting the towers to small could be a good option, but I don't think setting them to large would have your mid-drivers reproducing bass content they couldn't handle.
WOKNROX and markyg66 like this.
alfa1 is offline  
post #39183 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 09:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Falconsfan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,242
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1544 Post(s)
Liked: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfa1 View Post
It's possible I am misunderstanding what people are saying, but I think The Prisoner is setting up his towers exactly as recommended by Def Tech and Sandy Gross when there is no external subwoofer present. Powered towers set to LARGE, subs set to YES, LFE cables to subs in the towers. In this setup, I believe the LFE signal goes to the powered subs, and the full range signal not including LFE goes to the towers via speaker-wire. The internal crossover in the speaker prevents low frequency signals going to the mid-woofers, it sends them to the powered subs, right? So there wouldn't be an issue with the mid-drivers being overloaded I think.


Now, when using an external sub or subs, if you choose speakers LARGE, sub YES, then only the LFE is sent to the external sub, so if you have a much more capable sub than is in your towers, you are missing out on the better reproduction of very low frequency content not in the LFE channel that your external sub can give - is that what you are getting at? The counterargument is that by setting the towers to small with an external sub, you are losing the low frequency blending designed into the speaker which is presumably better than your AV receiver can do, and you lose the benefits of essentially 3 or more "subwoofers" in your room which helps smooth bass peaks and nulls. I think that is why Definitive and Sandy Gross recommend powered towers be set to LARGE even when LFE is connected to an external sub. I suppose if you are sending LFE to BOTH your external sub and your tower subs (like Falconsfan is doing I think), than setting the towers to small could be a good option, but I don't think setting them to large would have your mid-drivers reproducing bass content they couldn't handle.


Nice points made and this does sound correct. I’m still learning as I go...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Denon X4300H * Def Tech BP8080st front L/R * Def Tech CLR2002 center * Def Tech ProMonitor 800 surrounds (x4) * Hsu VTF-3 MK5 HP sub * Outlaw OAW4 wireless sub kit * Vizio 60" 4K HDRtv * Sony UBP-X800 Bluray * PS4 * AC Infinity S9 AVR fan
Falconsfan71 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #39184 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 10:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
pbz06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,653
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1084 Post(s)
Liked: 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
I don’t even run my 8080’s full range. I don’t feel good about having 5.25” much less 4.5” drivers as full range.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But it distributes that full range signal internally to the tweaters/mid/woofer the way it's designed for.

Sony XBR-77A9G / Panasonic DP-UB9000 / Marantz SR7011 / Def Tech 9060 Series
pbz06 is online now  
post #39185 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 11:01 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: SW FL
Posts: 595
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
But it distributes that full range signal internally to the tweaters/mid/woofer the way it's designed for.
This might be an "it depends" type issue.


I'm guessing he has the external connectors binding the top posts and LFE posts and might not know it. If this is the case, then his towers would be receiving all signals, full range & LFE all going to the bottom connection posts, then the BP's handle all cross overs internally putting the intended frequencies to the intended drivers.


If this is the case, (of which I'm not sure) I'm wondering how it would differ from removing the external connectors, running an LFE connection to the bottom posts, and running L/R cables to the top posts and crossing over in the AVR to taste like Falcon's fan does. In theory, running it his way might be the same, or better, because Def Tech has crossed the powered sub to the 4.5" drivers at the most appropriate setting which might not be 40/60/80/90/100. 40-60 is a big gap. My guess is that internal xo from powered woofer to mid range xo is closer to 110htz than it is to 40-60htz though. So for me, if I did not have external subs, I might consider testing this option, but the flexibility of controlling the ox in the AVR I would still see as an advantage. There is a reason most everyone, even with full range towers eventually comes around to crossing over at 80htz or greater unless you have some really, really big drivers in the towers. Like 12" plus or bigger.


But if he is running this the way I think I understand it; two set of wires (one set from LFE, one set from L or R) both connected to the LFE in posts, with no binding connectors, then I'm at a loss what's going on or why it sounds good.


Until additional information is provided to confirm, I'm suspicious that his configuration is contributing to his dissatisfaction with Audyssey.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5

Last edited by derekmoore; 04-16-2018 at 11:05 AM.
derekmoore is offline  
post #39186 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 11:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ThePrisoner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 2,692
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post
This might be an "it depends" type issue.


I'm guessing he has the external connectors binding the top posts and LFE posts and might not know it. If this is the case, then his towers would be receiving all signals, full range & LFE all going to the bottom connection posts, then the BP's handle all cross overs internally putting the intended frequencies to the intended drivers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfa1 View Post
It's possible I am misunderstanding what people are saying, but I think The Prisoner is setting up his towers exactly as recommended by Def Tech and Sandy Gross when there is no external subwoofer present. Powered towers set to LARGE, subs set to YES, LFE cables to subs in the towers. In this setup, I believe the LFE signal goes to the powered subs, and the full range signal not including LFE goes to the towers via speaker-wire. The internal crossover in the speaker prevents low frequency signals going to the mid-woofers, it sends them to the powered subs, right? So there wouldn't be an issue with the mid-drivers being overloaded I think.


Now, when using an external sub or subs, if you choose speakers LARGE, sub YES, then only the LFE is sent to the external sub, so if you have a much more capable sub than is in your towers, you are missing out on the better reproduction of very low frequency content not in the LFE channel that your external sub can give - is that what you are getting at? The counterargument is that by setting the towers to small with an external sub, you are losing the low frequency blending designed into the speaker which is presumably better than your AV receiver can do, and you lose the benefits of essentially 3 or more "subwoofers" in your room which helps smooth bass peaks and nulls. I think that is why Definitive and Sandy Gross recommend powered towers be set to LARGE even when LFE is connected to an external sub. I suppose if you are sending LFE to BOTH your external sub and your tower subs (like Falconsfan is doing I think), than setting the towers to small could be a good option, but I don't think setting them to large would have your mid-drivers reproducing bass content they couldn't handle.

Derekmoore,

there are no external connectors (jumpers), nor top posts on BP-8060ST towers. They only have one pair of speaker binding posts along with LFE input and volume control. My top speakers are mounted on my ceiling.

alfa1,

Yes, my connections are exactly as you described and what I'm going for currently since I just sold my pair of SVS subs. My main question was I wanted to use Audyssey only to set my speaker distances. I used my SPL meter for level calibration. Once I get a new sub I'll go back to using a full Audyssey calibration. Right now I like what my manual setup sounds like. I listen at -10db and the sound is great, there is no over loading whats so ever with my 8060's set to large. Like you said, I'm utilizing the internal crossover the way the towers are suppose to be used when no external sub is present.

Last edited by ThePrisoner; 04-16-2018 at 11:47 AM.
ThePrisoner is offline  
post #39187 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 12:13 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: SW FL
Posts: 595
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePrisoner View Post
Derekmoore,

there are no external connectors (jumpers), nor top posts on BP-8060ST towers. They only have one pair of speaker binding posts along with LFE input and volume control. My top speakers are mounted on my ceiling.

alfa1,

Yes, my connections are exactly as you described and what I'm going for currently since I just sold my pair of SVS subs. My main question was I wanted to use Audyssey only to set my speaker distances. I used my SPL meter for level calibration. Once I get a new sub I'll go back to using a full Audyssey calibration. Right now I like what my manual setup sounds like. I listen at -10db and the sound is great, there is no over loading whats so ever with my 8060's set to large. Like you said, I'm utilizing the internal crossover the way the towers are suppose to be used when no external sub is present.
My mistake, I thought the 8060's had separate post rather than one pair of posts plus the RCA in for LFE. Now I understand.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
derekmoore is offline  
post #39188 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 12:28 PM
Member
 
NasDamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
i just picked up a set of bp6's and am trying to figure out what center to get to go with them. I think i've narrowed it down to the CLR2002 or CLR2500 as they're both 5.25" drivers. The only difference i can tell is the 8" powered sub and about $100 difference in the used marketplaces.

My other concern is that i have OG BP6's, not BP6B's, meaning i do not have an aluminum dome tweeter. What should i expect to be different?
NasDamus is offline  
post #39189 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 01:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,732
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 609 Post(s)
Liked: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
But it distributes that full range signal internally to the tweaters/mid/woofer the way it's designed for.
Yeah I’m confused too. I would assume that if your speakers are set to large the dt have an internal crossover. Don’t know where that would be 80? So everything under 80 let’s say gets directed to the sub? Now if you use and lfe cable and also set speakers to large your just bypassing the amps setting and relying on the individual speakers internal crossover? So the small drivers would get the upper range and then the lfe and low regular bass would be sent to the sub? I’m just guessing? I run all 4 of my powered towers with lfe cable crossed over at 80.
keeper is online now  
post #39190 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 02:16 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: SW FL
Posts: 595
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasDamus View Post
i just picked up a set of bp6's and am trying to figure out what center to get to go with them. I think i've narrowed it down to the CLR2002 or CLR2500 as they're both 5.25" drivers. The only difference i can tell is the 8" powered sub and about $100 difference in the used marketplaces.

My other concern is that i have OG BP6's, not BP6B's, meaning i do not have an aluminum dome tweeter. What should i expect to be different?
I would call Def Tech on that and verify that the tweeters are timber matched.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
derekmoore is offline  
post #39191 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 09:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ALtlOff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: St. Louis Mo "ish"
Posts: 3,349
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasDamus View Post
i just picked up a set of bp6's and am trying to figure out what center to get to go with them. I think i've narrowed it down to the CLR2002 or CLR2500 as they're both 5.25" drivers. The only difference i can tell is the 8" powered sub and about $100 difference in the used marketplaces.

My other concern is that i have OG BP6's, not BP6B's, meaning i do not have an aluminum dome tweeter. What should i expect to be different?
CLR2002 the 2500 would work but not needed by any means unless you found a deal


Quote:
Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post
I would call Def Tech on that and verify that the tweeters are timber matched.
While not the same material, they were designed to timbre match, as are all DefTech's speakers.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html
ALtlOff is offline  
post #39192 of 40718 Old 04-16-2018, 09:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ALtlOff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: St. Louis Mo "ish"
Posts: 3,349
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfa1 View Post
It's possible I am misunderstanding what people are saying, but I think The Prisoner is setting up his towers exactly as recommended by Def Tech and Sandy Gross when there is no external subwoofer present. Powered towers set to LARGE, subs set to YES, LFE cables to subs in the towers. In this setup, I believe the LFE signal goes to the powered subs, and the full range signal not including LFE goes to the towers via speaker-wire. The internal crossover in the speaker prevents low frequency signals going to the mid-woofers, it sends them to the powered subs, right? So there wouldn't be an issue with the mid-drivers being overloaded I think.
While this will work and you shouldn't damage the mid drivers unless you go nuts with the volume, problem here is that by setting the speakers to Large and running LFE to the Subs, all the low frequency that the internal crossovers are filtering out of the main channels is simply lost, that's why you either run them as small, so that all those low frequency sounds mix into the LIFE that is sent to the subs, or run Large with speaker wire only (or full range low level to the subs) and Sub setting to None, then the LFE is blended into the Mains, that way your hearing everything.
Falconsfan71 and markyg66 like this.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html

Last edited by ALtlOff; 04-17-2018 at 12:37 AM.
ALtlOff is offline  
post #39193 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 10:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
wmessin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Walker, LA
Posts: 502
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 30
does anyone know Chet at DT's current working email address?

Def Tech BP7001SC mains; Def Tech CLR3000 Center; Def Tech BPX Side Surrounds; Def Tech SR9040 Back Surrounds; SVS SB-2000 sub; Def Tech PM1000 Atmos Heights; Denon AVR-X4300H Receiver; Sony STR-DA2ES utilized as external amplifier for atmos heights; Panasonic TC-P65S2 Plasma; Sony UBP-X800 Bluray Player; Nvidia Shield TV; Roku Premiere+
wmessin is offline  
post #39194 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 11:21 AM
Member
 
alfa1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
While this will work and you shouldn't damage the mid drivers unless you go nuts with the volume, problem here is that by setting the speakers to Large and running LFE to the Subs, all the low frequency that the internal crossovers are filtering out of the main channels is simply lost, that's why you either run them as small, so that all those low frequency sounds mix into the LIFE that is sent to the subs, or run Large with speaker wire only (or full range low level to the subs) and Sub setting to None, then the LFE is blended into the Mains, that way your hearing everything.
Are you sure about this? If towers set to large and LFE is sent to subs, the internal crossover would send the entire signal to the appropriate drivers in the speakers (tweeter, mids, or powered sub/bass radiator), so how would any signal be lost?


It would seem, though, that if the towers are set to small in the AVR maybe you might lose some of the signal if the crossover in the AVR is close to the internal crossover in the speaker. In both cases, all the LFE goes to the powered subs, so no issue there. But if the AVR crossover is set at 120, and the internal speaker crossover is 100, signals between 100 and 120 HZ would not be reproduced, right? Even if the crossovers are both at 120 HZ, you would lose some signal below 120 HZ because the crossover is not a brick wall, right? Maybe this is why Sandy puts in bold on the GoldenEar site that powered towers should always be set to large with no external sub, even if connecting LFE to the towers. Interesting stuff, maybe someone else who really understands this could chime in?
alfa1 is offline  
post #39195 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 11:23 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: SW FL
Posts: 595
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmessin View Post
does anyone know Chet at DT's current working email address?

Not me, but their email domain is @definitivetech.com You could guess at his prefix for it.


If that does not work, you might be able to reach him via Linked In. https://www.linkedin.com/in/chet-pelkowski-00548498/


Good luck.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
derekmoore is offline  
post #39196 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 12:01 PM
Member
 
NasDamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
CLR2002 the 2500 would work but not needed by any means unless you found a deal




While not the same material, they were designed to timbre match, as are all DefTech's speakers.
I can get the 2002 for $115 or the 2500 for $225. I'm currently using an older Athena AS-C1.
NasDamus is offline  
post #39197 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 12:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: SW FL
Posts: 595
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasDamus View Post
I can get the 2002 for $115 or the 2500 for $225. I'm currently using an older Athena AS-C1.
FWIW, the CLR2002 at $115 is a very good price if in good condition. I struggled to find one for under $200 shipped and/or local the past couple of months. Fortunately, I found a CLR 2000 near by in great condition so I grabbed it. The 2002 would have had much higher WAF rating but she seems to have come to terms with the 2000 now. I have no experience with nor opinion of the 2500.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
derekmoore is offline  
post #39198 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 12:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ThePrisoner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 2,692
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
While this will work and you shouldn't damage the mid drivers unless you go nuts with the volume, problem here is that by setting the speakers to Large and running LFE to the Subs, all the low frequency that the internal crossovers are filtering out of the main channels is simply lost, that's why you either run them as small, so that all those low frequency sounds mix into the LIFE that is sent to the subs, or run Large with speaker wire only (or full range low level to the subs) and Sub setting to None, then the LFE is blended into the Mains, that way your hearing everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfa1 View Post
Are you sure about this? If towers set to large and LFE is sent to subs, the internal crossover would send the entire signal to the appropriate drivers in the speakers (tweeter, mids, or powered sub/bass radiator), so how would any signal be lost?

It would seem, though, that if the towers are set to small in the AVR maybe you might lose some of the signal if the crossover in the AVR is close to the internal crossover in the speaker. In both cases, all the LFE goes to the powered subs, so no issue there. But if the AVR crossover is set at 120, and the internal speaker crossover is 100, signals between 100 and 120 HZ would not be reproduced, right? Even if the crossovers are both at 120 HZ, you would lose some signal below 120 HZ because the crossover is not a brick wall, right? Maybe this is why Sandy puts in bold on the GoldenEar site that powered towers should always be set to large with no external sub, even if connecting LFE to the towers. Interesting stuff, maybe someone else who really understands this could chime in?
This is getting interesting now. for some fun I did a Audyssey calibration with LFE inputs on my towers. My towers were set to small with 110Hz crossover. I also level matched the subs using Audyssey which is why I got a high crossover I believe. I listened for a bit than did a manual calibration and set the towers to small with 80Hz crossover along with switching them to large all while using the LFE inputs. To me, Large sounds the best, followed by small with 80Hz crossover in a close second place.

I'm also in the camp that believes if your using LFE inputs you should use Large. Audioholics posted a video on this subject too. They claim if you just use speaker level connection (no LFE inputs) and select Sub=none, towers set to Large you may lose some LFE because the AVR knows the sub outputs aren't being used and thats how some bass info will be lost. They say some AVR's might reduce that level by -10db or something. They say set to Large while using LFE inputs, that way you are utilizing the powered tower as they were meant to be used and designed for.

Last edited by ThePrisoner; 04-17-2018 at 12:21 PM.
ThePrisoner is offline  
post #39199 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 12:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ALtlOff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: St. Louis Mo "ish"
Posts: 3,349
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfa1 View Post
Are you sure about this? If towers set to large and LFE is sent to subs, the internal crossover would send the entire signal to the appropriate drivers in the speakers (tweeter, mids, or powered sub/bass radiator), so how would any signal be lost?


It would seem, though, that if the towers are set to small in the AVR maybe you might lose some of the signal if the crossover in the AVR is close to the internal crossover in the speaker. In both cases, all the LFE goes to the powered subs, so no issue there. But if the AVR crossover is set at 120, and the internal speaker crossover is 100, signals between 100 and 120 HZ would not be reproduced, right? Even if the crossovers are both at 120 HZ, you would lose some signal below 120 HZ because the crossover is not a brick wall, right? Maybe this is why Sandy puts in bold on the GoldenEar site that powered towers should always be set to large with no external sub, even if connecting LFE to the towers. Interesting stuff, maybe someone else who really understands this could chime in?
Thing is, unless they've done something different with their DSP, once you've connected anything to the RCA input, it rolls off the mid drivers different, it becomes extremely steep, so that the sound below the crossover point no longer gets blended into the sub, and it acts more independent of the rest of the speaker.

Used to be, they had jumper bars, you had to remove them when you connected to the RCA input so the sub portion of the speaker wasn't getting two conflicting signals, now with the DSP's, as soon as you connect to the RCA it changes the roll off of the mid driver crossover so that it effectively does the same thing, doesn't send two conflicting signals to the sub. Which in turn means you lose that portion of the signal, unless of course you connect the RCA with a full range signal and not LFE.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html

Last edited by ALtlOff; 04-17-2018 at 12:53 PM.
ALtlOff is offline  
post #39200 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 12:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: SW FL
Posts: 595
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePrisoner View Post
This is getting interesting now. for some fun I did a Audyssey calibration with LFE inputs on my towers. My towers were set to small with 110Hz crossover. I also level matched the subs using Audyssey which is why I got a high crossover I believe. I listened for a bit than did a manual calibration and set the towers to small with 80Hz crossover along with switching them to large all while using the LFE inputs. To me, Large sounds the best, followed by small with 80Hz crossover in a close second place..

Do you have REW? It would be interesting to see how the different connections measure up real world.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
derekmoore is offline  
post #39201 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 12:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ThePrisoner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 2,692
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post
Do you have REW? It would be interesting to see how the different connections measure up real world.
Unfortunately I do not.
ThePrisoner is offline  
post #39202 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 01:37 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ALtlOff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: St. Louis Mo "ish"
Posts: 3,349
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 815
I'm going to edit myself, the DSP "changing" the roll off isn't the right way to explain it, it's more like an override.
Think of it this way, with No RCA signal detected, the DSP sends the frequencies below the crossover for the mids, to the sub. But when a signal is detected through the RCA connection, that signal then overrides the below the crossover frequencies, and the sub only plays what is brought in via RCA.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html

Last edited by ALtlOff; 04-17-2018 at 01:40 PM.
ALtlOff is offline  
post #39203 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 01:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ThePrisoner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 2,692
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
I'm going to edit myself, the DSP "changing" the roll off isn't the right way to explain it, it's more like an override.
Think of it this way, with No RCA signal detected, the DSP sends the frequencies below the crossover for the mids, to the sub. But when a signal is detected through the RCA connection, that signal then overrides the below the crossover frequencies, and the sub only plays what is brought in via RCA.
Ok. I just found this doing a search here at AVS. This is from user sidvadselim from 2103 and he says "This shouldn't make any difference from connecting the speakers conventionally and setting up the AVR as having NO SUB connected to it. And it is actually probably not the best way to connect these speakers when using no dedicated sub.

The best way to connect them when using no dedicated subwoofer is to simply connect them conventionally and configure the AVR as having NO SUB connected. If you configure them as SMALL with a subwoofer connection you are going to end up cascading and/or overlapping the speaker's built in high and low pass filters with the AVR's crossover filters."

Seems like your right although Def Tech's manual says Large on both connection methods. I'll play around some more.

Last edited by ThePrisoner; 04-17-2018 at 01:51 PM.
ThePrisoner is offline  
post #39204 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 02:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ALtlOff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: St. Louis Mo "ish"
Posts: 3,349
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePrisoner View Post
Ok. I just found this doing a search here at AVS. This is from user sidvadselim from 2103 and he says "This shouldn't make any difference from connecting the speakers conventionally and setting up the AVR as having NO SUB connected to it. And it is actually probably not the best way to connect these speakers when using no dedicated sub.

The best way to connect them when using no dedicated subwoofer is to simply connect them conventionally and configure the AVR as having NO SUB connected. If you configure them as SMALL with a subwoofer connection you are going to end up cascading and/or overlapping the speaker's built in high and low pass filters with the AVR's crossover filters."

Seems like your right although Def Tech's manual says Large on both connection methods. I'll play around some more.
The Large with both connections makes no sense to me either, in essence that would mean that the DSP in the speaker would have the same blending and manipulating power as the DSP in your receiver, and unless something has drastically changed, I just don't see that being the case.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html
ALtlOff is offline  
post #39205 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 02:22 PM
Member
 
alfa1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
I'm going to edit myself, the DSP "changing" the roll off isn't the right way to explain it, it's more like an override.
Think of it this way, with No RCA signal detected, the DSP sends the frequencies below the crossover for the mids, to the sub. But when a signal is detected through the RCA connection, that signal then overrides the below the crossover frequencies, and the sub only plays what is brought in via RCA.
Do you mean the "below the crossover frequencies" in the internal speaker crossover or in the AVR? If towers are set to LARGE, sub YES, the only signal sent to the powered subs by the AVR is the LFE. So if the internal crossover from the mids to the sub is 120 HZ, are you saying that all the signals not in the LFE channel below 120 HZ are not reproduced by the speaker? I am probably misunderstanding you, but that sounds very strange. The creator of these types of speakers is adamant that powered towers be set to LARGE in the AVR when the LFE connections are used on the towers (look at Sandy's set up tips on the Golden Ear website to see what I am talking about). It just seems hard to believe that he would recommend a set-up method that doesn't reproduce the entire signal, right?
ThePrisoner likes this.
alfa1 is offline  
post #39206 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 03:37 PM
Nerd
 
Nijessi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 2
I started my home theater several years ago with the Definitive Technology 600 series set - I just ordered a new center speaker (Def Pro Center 2000) to replace the original center for better dialogue but as I got to thinking about it I realized that maybe I should take this opportunity to move up a bit. I've been looking at the Super Towers and was wondering if using a pair of SR9040s (with atmos) as my L/R would fit in with my existing 600 bookshelves serving as surrounds - effectively making a 7.1.2 system. Would I need to pull the existing sub from the original set (given that the 9040 have subs built in)? Or am I totally barking up the wrong tree? Any guidance would be truly appreciated!

Sony XBR65A1E | Sony STRDN1080 | |Bowers & Wilkins - 600 Series 683 S2 x2 & HTM62 S2 | Definitive Technology ProMonitor 600 satellite speakers & ProSub 600 | Sony - UBP-X700 | PS4 | Nintendo Switch | TIVO Roamio Plus | Logitech Harmony Elite Home | Google Home (Voice Control)
Nijessi is offline  
post #39207 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 04:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
RKSKYDANCER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 690
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 369 Post(s)
Liked: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePrisoner View Post
They say set to Large while using LFE inputs, that way you are utilizing the powered tower as they were meant to be used and designed for.
In the video you are referring to, they also mention to be sure to turn double bass off if you use this method. Some AVR's like Onkyo or higher end Denons allow you to do this. So far i have not found this option on my New Denon AVR-X3400H. I have posted all over the place here on AVS about this issue with Def Tech BP9000 series towers. I purchased a set of BP9020's with A90 atmos modules, a CS9040 center to go along with my Def tech surrounds for a 5.2.2 set up. I do NOT use seperate powered subwoofers in my set up like most. I simply don't have room.

I have tested the BP9020's with all 3 set ups. Audyssey XT32 set my BP9020's to large at 40hz and the rest of my speakers as small. I went in after and set the towers to small and set them to 80hz. My center is also at 80hz, surrounds at 90hz and atmos at 110hz. I have speaker wire and LFE connected to the BP9020's. I like the bass control and crossover control i have by running them small with LFE. One more setting i had to do in my set up and i have read many articles on this: Go into your settings and adjust your LFE from 120hz down to 80hz. This tighten the bass up considerably and keeps the BP9000 series from sounding to boomy. So far my BP9020's sound best with this set up. I have run my system anywhere from 75db all the way up to 97db listening levels at a -10 volume setting and they sound very good and cristal clear.

I am still trying different settings with these speakers but so far the BP9020's sound there best in my living room set as small with LFE and crossovers and LFE set to 80hz. This is exactely what Def tech recommends if choosing to run them as small with LFE which gives you more bass management.
ThePrisoner and Falconsfan71 like this.

(Living Room) Sony XBR-65X900E 4K TV, Sony UBP-X800 4K BD player, Pioneer SC-LX502, Def Tech BP9020's, A90 atmos, CS-9040 C and Di 5.5R surrounds

(Garage) Sherwood RX-4105 Receiver, Samsung DVD/CD player, Klipsch 2.5 med oak speakers

Last edited by RKSKYDANCER; 04-17-2018 at 05:06 PM.
RKSKYDANCER is offline  
post #39208 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 04:54 PM
Advanced Member
 
RKSKYDANCER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 690
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 369 Post(s)
Liked: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nijessi View Post
I started my home theater several years ago with the Definitive Technology 600 series set - I just ordered a new center speaker (Def Pro Center 2000) to replace the original center for better dialogue but as I got to thinking about it I realized that maybe I should take this opportunity to move up a bit. I've been looking at the Super Towers and was wondering if using a pair of SR9040s (with atmos) as my L/R would fit in with my existing 600 bookshelves serving as surrounds - effectively making a 7.1.2 system. Would I need to pull the existing sub from the original set (given that the 9040 have subs built in)? Or am I totally barking up the wrong tree? Any guidance would be truly appreciated!
If you mean the BP9040 towers then yes they will be a huge upgrade for you. The "SR9040's" are surround speakers. As for using the built in power subwoofers in the BP9040's only will depend on your room set up, size and how much of a bass head you are? I just recently went from Mythos 2 on wall with a seperate 10" or 12" subwoofer( had both ) to a set of BP9020's towers with A90 atmos speakers and a CS9040 center for a 5.2.2 set up and i prefer it over my old set up 2 to 1. If you have room, adding seperate subwoofers would be even that much better.

(Living Room) Sony XBR-65X900E 4K TV, Sony UBP-X800 4K BD player, Pioneer SC-LX502, Def Tech BP9020's, A90 atmos, CS-9040 C and Di 5.5R surrounds

(Garage) Sherwood RX-4105 Receiver, Samsung DVD/CD player, Klipsch 2.5 med oak speakers
RKSKYDANCER is offline  
post #39209 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 05:09 PM
Nerd
 
Nijessi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKSKYDANCER View Post
If you mean the BP9040 towers then yes they will be a huge upgrade for you. The "SR9040's" are surround speakers. As for using the built in power subwoofers in the BP9040's only will depend on your room set up, size and how much of a bass head you are? I just recently went from Mythos 2 on wall with a seperate 10" or 12" subwoofer( had both ) to a set of BP9020's towers with A90 atmos speakers and a CS9040 center for a 5.2.2 set up and i prefer it over my old set up 2 to 1. If you have room, adding seperate subwoofers would be even that much better.
I did mean BP9040 >_< thanks for catching that. I'm not a big bass head - we watch lots of movies and TV. I carry much more about being able to hear details than feeling a thump in my chest. That being said I would prefer both if possible. I already have the sub that came with the 600 set - so I suppose I would keep that with what you're saying. Combined with the existing bookshelves that would be a what - 7.3.2?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Sony XBR65A1E | Sony STRDN1080 | |Bowers & Wilkins - 600 Series 683 S2 x2 & HTM62 S2 | Definitive Technology ProMonitor 600 satellite speakers & ProSub 600 | Sony - UBP-X700 | PS4 | Nintendo Switch | TIVO Roamio Plus | Logitech Harmony Elite Home | Google Home (Voice Control)
Nijessi is offline  
post #39210 of 40718 Old 04-17-2018, 05:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
RKSKYDANCER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 690
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 369 Post(s)
Liked: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nijessi View Post
I did mean BP9040 >_< thanks for catching that. I'm not a big bass head - we watch lots of movies and TV. I carry much more about being able to hear details than feeling a thump in my chest. That being said I would prefer both if possible. I already have the sub that came with the 600 set - so I suppose I would keep that with what you're saying. Combined with the existing bookshelves that would be a what - 7.3.2?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

No, it would still be considered a 7.2.2 set up as far as how your receiver and speaker calibration would see it. You would need to run a Y spliter if your receiver has 2 sub outs and you are running a seperate powered subwoofer along with the BP9040's LFE connections.

I am pretty sure member: Falconsfan71 on here ( this thread) runs that type of set up! Get with him on this if you go this route. I am sure he would be happy to help. You can try the BP9040 first and see how the bass sounds to you. I am sure you will be impressed with them! I am more then happy with the smaller BP9020's and they have big sound for a smaller tower! There a perfect fit in my living room. Here's a picture of them with the A90 atmos speakers on top.

Click image for larger version

Name:	CIMG8568.JPG
Views:	39
Size:	2.21 MB
ID:	2392104

(Living Room) Sony XBR-65X900E 4K TV, Sony UBP-X800 4K BD player, Pioneer SC-LX502, Def Tech BP9020's, A90 atmos, CS-9040 C and Di 5.5R surrounds

(Garage) Sherwood RX-4105 Receiver, Samsung DVD/CD player, Klipsch 2.5 med oak speakers
RKSKYDANCER is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Tags
Definitive Technology , Definitive Technology Bp2x Speakers , Definitive Technology Bp7004 , Definitive Technology Bpvx Speaker Single Black , Definitive Technology Bpx Speaker Single Black , Definitive Technology Mythos 6 Aluminum Stand , Definitive Technology Studiomonitor 350 Speakers , Definitive Technology Super Cube 4000 Subwoofer , Definitive Technology Supercube 2000 Subwoofer , Definitive Technology Supercube Trinity , Marantz Sr7002 Surround Receiver , Parasound , Receivers Amplifiers , Speaker Systems

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off