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post #39271 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 04:25 PM
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@richstadler

We definitely have some work to do. But first off, that is a cool room and a nice set up. I’m sure you will receive a lot of suggestions here and advice. There’s no reason your system should sound that boomy especially with the bass knob turned all the way down on the amps. That should be a pretty clean sounding set up except I’m not fond of the sub but it will suffice. I’m not familiar with Yamaha AVR‘s and YPAO but something is definitely not right. The first thing you need to do is I have all the speakers placed in their proper positions and then run your room calibration properly. Do you have a mic stand or some type of tripod to set the calibration microphone on?


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post #39272 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
@richstadler

We definitely have some work to do. But first off, that is a cool room and a nice set up. I’m sure you will receive a lot of suggestions here and advice. There’s no reason your system should sound that boomy especially with the bass knob turned all the way down on the amps. That should be a pretty clean sounding set up except I’m not fond of the sub but it will suffice. I’m not familiar with Yamaha AVR‘s and YPAO but something is definitely not right. The first thing you need to do is I have all the speakers placed in their proper positions and then run your room calibration properly. Do you have a mic stand or some type of tripod to set the calibration microphone on?


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I have photo tripods. I will get it rigged up and run the calibration. Should I just test it after that and report back?
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post #39273 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 04:57 PM
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Ok, I ran the calibration. Discovered a problem. One of the promonitor speakers sounds completely different when doing the calibration. It has no low sound, only high. I am assuming of the the drivers is blown? The calibration made a huge difference. The bass is drastically different, I have to turn the knobs on the towers almost all the way up to get the same amount of bass as having them almost all the way down before. What should I do at this point?
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post #39274 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by richstadler View Post
I have photo tripods. I will get it rigged up and run the calibration. Should I just test it after that and report back?

I see you have the towers “toed in” and I’m not so sure you need to. Make sure your speakers are exact difference from the side walls, rear wall, and from your seating position. I’d turn the amp gain knob on the towers to around “9 o’clock” and then run your calibration.


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post #39275 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ccoates View Post
I was trying to do an upgrade for about $1000, which is why I was thinking that sticking with Def Tech would be the best option. I already have a Def Tech center channel, and didn't want to mismatch the mains. I know that is not much money for a pair of decent main speakers. I was thinking I would replace the bi-polar design due to my space restrictions and maybe get a decent upgrade in quality considering that my speakers are pretty old. I assumed modern speakers at $1000 would be an upgrade over almost 20 year old speakers of a similar price range.

I will take a look at the Golden Ear brand that you suggested. I have also considered SVS, since I've heard so many good things about them. Would switching speaker manufacturers force me to also swap out my center? I'm trying to avoid that to keep initial costs down.

Thanks all for the suggestions.
If you want to stay in the DefTech family, the closest you'll find to the sound of the BP10b in a mono-pole would be a pair of used or refurbished SM65's.

As far as modern -vs your older DefTech's, it's not necessarily the case, while your taste or hearing may have changed, the classic 90's DefTech's can still out shine many new offerings.
Don't let hype or age convince you, just use your ears, what sounds good, sounds good, no matter how old.
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post #39276 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by richstadler View Post
Ok, I ran the calibration. Discovered a problem. One of the promonitor speakers sounds completely different when doing the calibration. It has no low sound, only high. I am assuming of the the drivers is blown? The calibration made a huge difference. The bass is drastically different, I have to turn the knobs on the towers almost all the way up to get the same amount of bass as having them almost all the way down before. What should I do at this point?
Honestly, verify the problem and contact DefTech about a replacement driver.

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post #39277 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
@richstadler

We definitely have some work to do. But first off, that is a cool room and a nice set up. I’m sure you will receive a lot of suggestions here and advice. There’s no reason your system should sound that boomy especially with the bass knob turned all the way down on the amps. That should be a pretty clean sounding set up except I’m not fond of the sub but it will suffice. I’m not familiar with Yamaha AVR‘s and YPAO but something is definitely not right. The first thing you need to do is I have all the speakers placed in their proper positions and then run your room calibration properly. Do you have a mic stand or some type of tripod to set the calibration microphone on?
I would have to agree with everything stated by Falconsfan and ccoats. I think you will be able to greatly improve the sound to match the great look of the room.


To your question of sub placement, yes, that is probably not the best place for it. Being on the front wall, the same distance from the wall as the mains, is likely reinforcing the same nulls in the low/mid-low frequencies. So trying placements on another wall or in the rear corners will likely help. Doing the sub crawl would best.


This thread, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...eferences.html although a long read, is a great resource not just for bass management but also for maximizing your auto room EQ. The language is geared to Audyssey from Denon/Marantz but will still apply.


I'd recommend starting with the sub crawl, then room EQ. Then experiment, listen to familiar music with a steady pronounced bass line, make small adjustments to you main speak positioning and repeat. And for music, definitely stick with 2 channel or pure direct as ccoats stated. Some music, mostly live concerts, are recorded in multi channel but 2 channel or direct mode is how most music was recorded/mixed and running this way will help you dial things in regardless if it was recorded in multi channel mode.


Correction. Actually the first thing I would do is sell the Supercube. Seriously. It has a smaller driver than your 9060's 10" woofers. Those are more capable than the Supercube's 8" driver down low and should be able to reproduce mid bass for music with much less distortion.


The Supercube, for me, produced a ton of tactile response but was just plan muddy in the mid bass region where it is important for music. Return it or sell it for what you can and save for the biggest, best 2 subs you can afford based upon your listening criteria and room considerations.


I'll bet you notice an instant improvement in sound quality in your set up by just turning it off and listening in direct mode (or stereo if you want some manual or auto EQ) with the 9060's by them selves.

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post #39278 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
I see you have the towers “toed in” and I’m not so sure you need to. Make sure your speakers are exact difference from the side walls, rear wall, and from your seating position. I’d turn the amp gain knob on the towers to around “9 o’clock” and then run your calibration.


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Ok, did all that. Does the bass knob setting before calibration change anything because it seems to. After calibration I had to set both at half way to get the desired sound. This is a noticeable difference from where this all started. Thank you so much for the help. Is there anything else I should do? I can order another promonitor 800. Should I stick with it or go with the 1000? Also, do you have a recommendation for the sub?
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post #39279 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by richstadler View Post
Ok, I ran the calibration. Discovered a problem. One of the promonitor speakers sounds completely different when doing the calibration. It has no low sound, only high. I am assuming of the the drivers is blown? The calibration made a huge difference. The bass is drastically different, I have to turn the knobs on the towers almost all the way up to get the same amount of bass as having them almost all the way down before. What should I do at this point?
Try feeling the rubber surround of the driver to verify if it is working or not. The ProMonitor's probably shouldn't be producing much bass. What did your Room EQ set the crossover to?


Also, did you turn the bass volume on the towers back to noon before running calibration?

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
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post #39280 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:39 PM
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Ok, did all that. Does the bass knob setting before calibration change anything because it seems to. After calibration I had to set both at half way to get the desired sound. This is a noticeable difference from where this all started. Thank you so much for the help. Is there anything else I should do? I can order another promonitor 800. Should I stick with it or go with the 1000? Also, do you have a recommendation for the sub?
Try to get what you have dialed in before trouble shooting with new speakers.


Regarding subs, great recommendations will be abundant, with excellent support, in the sub threads.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
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post #39281 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:48 PM
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Here is the speaker as it is being calibrated. I will do another video quick of the results

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post #39282 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ccoates View Post
I was trying to do an upgrade for about $1000, which is why I was thinking that sticking with Def Tech would be the best option. I already have a Def Tech center channel, and didn't want to mismatch the mains. I know that is not much money for a pair of decent main speakers. I was thinking I would replace the bi-polar design due to my space restrictions and maybe get a decent upgrade in quality considering that my speakers are pretty old. I assumed modern speakers at $1000 would be an upgrade over almost 20 year old speakers of a similar price range.

I will take a look at the Golden Ear brand that you suggested. I have also considered SVS, since I've heard so many good things about them. Would switching speaker manufacturers force me to also swap out my center? I'm trying to avoid that to keep initial costs down.

Thanks all for the suggestions.
Def Tech's recommendation's for the BP9000 series towers is only 4" clearance from the back wall and 2" to 6" from a side wall. Mine are sitting at 5.5 " from the back wall and sound great. I really like the bipolar design and how they sound. Def Tech also claims these speakers sound best if you sit further away from them. My MLP is about 16 ft which could explain why these BP9020's sound so good in my living room. I have had many different speakers in this room (much larger towers) and these sound best by a far margin. Of course my new Denon AVR-X3400H might be playing a row in this.

(Living Room) Sony XBR-65Z9F 4K TV, Sony UHP-H1 & Panasonic DP-UB420 4K BD players, Pioneer SC-LX502, Def Tech BP9020's, A90 atmos, CS-9040 C and Di 5.5R surrounds

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post #39283 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:53 PM
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Ok, here is the video of my room

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAV4Lwh5L8c
Forget the speakers.... when was the last time you dusted this room ? . Nothings worst for electronics than dust that can accumulate on the main board and cause issues.
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post #39284 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 05:54 PM
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Try feeling the rubber surround of the driver to verify if it is working or not. The ProMonitor's probably shouldn't be producing much bass. What did your Room EQ set the crossover to?


Also, did you turn the bass volume on the towers back to noon before running calibration?
I set the knobs at 9 oclock then ran the calibration. This video is the results. It was a lot of bass so I turned them to half way from 9 oclock and did not run another calibration.

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post #39285 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 06:02 PM
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Def Tech's recommendation's for the BP9000 series towers is only 4" clearance from the back wall and 2" to 6" from a side wall. Mine are sitting at 5.5 " from the back wall and sound great. I really like the bipolar design and how they sound. Def Tech also claims these speakers sound best if you sit further away from them. My MLP is about 16 ft which could explain why these BP9020's sound so good in my living room. I have had many different speakers in this room (much larger towers) and these sound best by a far margin. Of course my new Denon AVR-X3400H might be playing a row in this.
It is true this is what is published by the marketing department. However many owners, myself included, find the bi-polar design greatly benefits from much more space. I called Def Tech and talked to them about this very concern when trying to decide between one of the BP towers vs the SM65's. I was told "the more room the better, but if you can get at least 12" on all sides you should be fine". I suspect ceiling height plays a big role as well. In my case I have mine out about 22" from the front wall.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
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post #39286 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 06:04 PM
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I set the knobs at 9 oclock then ran the calibration. This video is the results. It was a lot of bass so I turned them to half way from 9 oclock and did not run another calibration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFz9oeZw3O0
Check the "Levels" settings. What does it read for the sub?

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
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post #39287 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 06:07 PM
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Check the "Levels" settings. What does it read for the sub?
It is in the video you quoted. -8.5db for the sub
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post #39288 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 06:07 PM
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The best way to test a speaker is full range, stereo direct (other than a sub of course), even the smallest speaker will play full range, it probably won't play it well, or loud, but it will give you the opportunity to make sure everything is working properly.

Doing it this way insures that no processing is effecting the signal. In this instance you're not testing for sound reproduction, but simply an individual speakers characteristics and proper functioning.

Just use caution with the volume knob and you'll be fine.
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post #39289 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 06:28 PM
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It is in the video you quoted. -8.5db for the sub
Sorry, I admit I did not watch the last one. I watched the first one in full. Great idea BTW.


I'm not certain, but I think Yamaha's max (minimum actually) reading for sub level is -15? Or is it -10? Can someone correct me on this?


If -10, you are in pretty good shape on the sub volume settings. From there, adjust the SC4000 to taste with the remote for it. I found I had to constantly adjust the volume and/or preset EQ on it depending upon the source. Try EQ2 for music, I found it best most often with Off the next most often used setting. For music that is.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5

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post #39290 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 06:35 PM
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Here is the speaker as it is being calibrated. I will do another video quick of the results

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxSTWBksKuo
My advise would be: first replace the 1 defective rear speaker, spread the towers out a bit more (split the difference from the side walls to the tv consol) tow them in a bit but not to much, move the subwoofer to the back of the room. Run YPAO again.

(Living Room) Sony XBR-65Z9F 4K TV, Sony UHP-H1 & Panasonic DP-UB420 4K BD players, Pioneer SC-LX502, Def Tech BP9020's, A90 atmos, CS-9040 C and Di 5.5R surrounds

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post #39291 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 06:45 PM
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My advise would be: first replace the 1 defective rear speaker, spread the towers out a bit more (split the difference from the side walls to the tv consol) tow them in a bit but not to much, move the subwoofer to the back of the room. Run YPAO again.
Since this is a dedicated theater room, I presume he has a bit of freedom of placement. That being the case, even though he's going to ditch the Supercube soon , taking the time to do a sub crawl would yield the best results now, and save time later when integrating a real subwoofer(s).


Edit: and yes, address any dead drivers. If you call Def Tech, they will probably send you them for free. Unless your initials are "HJ" that is.

5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5

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post #39292 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 07:18 PM
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I am going to upgrade to the promonitor 1000 and then search the sub forum for a sub. I will let you all know how it goes. It is night and day better now. THANK YOU for your help. I am definitely on the right track!
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post #39293 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 07:25 PM
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What about the SR9040? Would they be of any benefit in that location? Would I need additional wires? Price is not much of a concern, just want something nice. Those are quite a bit behind the couch and the 800's just did not seem like enough
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post #39294 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 07:34 PM
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Definitive Owners Thread

@richstadler -8.5db is good for the sub after calibration. With some room calibrations you may want to bump it up to around -6.5 to -5.5db in the AVR (Sub Level) if more sub bass is required.

Ok, so now the speakers.. before you do anything else, I would swap the two rear speakers around and see if the other rear speaker does the same thing during YPAO. If it doesn’t do what the alleged bad speaker does then you know that the other speaker is bad. If it makes the same noise then you know it’s either wiring or the AVR..?.

Before you run YPAO, set the tower subs to around 10 o’clock to 11 o’clock since 9 was too low. Here is where it would benefit having a C weighted SPL meter to make sure both tower subs are about the same level. Double check all speaker connections and make sure all speakers are as equidistant as possible. Check the back of the AVR and make sure all connections are good and no bare wire is touching anywhere.

Set up the mic so it’s ear level at your first position. If it’s close to the back of a chair or leather chair or sofa, place a towel or blanket over the back of the chair or sofa. Run YPAO and follow any instructions as needed as you go. Make sure nothing is in the way of any speakers and there is no other sound anywhere. Be completely quiet and make sure you’re nowhere near the mic while it’s calibrating or near any speakers. After YPAO, you have several options here which will be up to you. You can run your fronts as Small at 80hz or you can run them Full Range (Large). Your surrounds (PM800’s) should be around 100-120hz. For now, until you get more experienced, don’t touch your levels or distances after calibration. Now you’ll have to experiment and listen and find what you like. Remember distance is really “delay” so don’t think the speaker distance in the AVR should be 10’ from the main listening position (MLP) if it measures 10’ with a tape measure. You want a nice clear sound versus boomy or too much bass.


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post #39295 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
@richstadler -8.5db is good for the sub after calibration. With some room calibrations you may want to bump it up to around -6.5 to -5.5db in the AVR (Sub Level) if more sub bass is required.

Ok, so now the speakers.. before you do anything else, I would swap the two rear speakers around and see if the other rear speaker does the same thing during YPAO. If it doesn’t do what the alleged bad speaker does then you know that the other speaker is bad. If it makes the same noise then you know it’s either wiring or the AVR..?.

Before you run YPAO, set the tower subs to around 10 o’clock to 11 o’clock since 9 was too low. Here is where it would benefit having a C weighted SPL meter to make sure both tower subs are about the same level. Double check all speaker connections and make sure all speakers are as equidistant as possible. Check the back of the AVR and make sure all connections are good and no bare wire is touching anywhere.

Set up the mic so it’s ear level at your first position. If it’s close to the back of a chair or leather chair or sofa, place a towel or blanket over the back of the chair or sofa. Run YPAO and follow any instructions as needed as you go. Make sure nothing is in the way of any speakers and there is no other sound anywhere. Be completely quiet and make sure you’re nowhere near the mic while it’s calibrating or near any speakers. After YPAO, you have several options here which will be up to you. You can run your fronts as Small at 80hz or you can run them Full Range (Large). Your surrounds (PM800’s) should be around 100-120hz. For now, until you get more experienced, don’t touch your levels or distances after calibration. Now you’ll have to experiment and listen and find what you like. Remember distance is really “delay” so don’t think the speaker distance in the AVR should be 10’ from the main listening position (MLP) if it measures 10’ with a tape measure. You want a nice clear sound versus boomy or too much bass.


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I switched them and it is definitely the speaker. As my question above. Should I get the 800's, 1000's or SR9040's? I am not concerned with price at this point. I played with the sub and it sounds better without it. The room is not big so I am not sure I need a dedicated sub unless you think otherwise. Let me know what you think for the rear speakers and I will order them tomorrow. Thanks again!
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post #39296 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
@richstadler -8.5db is good for the sub after calibration. With some room calibrations you may want to bump it up to around -6.5 to -5.5db in the AVR (Sub Level) if more sub bass is required.

Ok, so now the speakers.. before you do anything else, I would swap the two rear speakers around and see if the other rear speaker does the same thing during YPAO. If it doesn’t do what the alleged bad speaker does then you know that the other speaker is bad. If it makes the same noise then you know it’s either wiring or the AVR..?.

Before you run YPAO, set the tower subs to around 10 o’clock to 11 o’clock since 9 was too low. Here is where it would benefit having a C weighted SPL meter to make sure both tower subs are about the same level. Double check all speaker connections and make sure all speakers are as equidistant as possible. Check the back of the AVR and make sure all connections are good and no bare wire is touching anywhere.

Set up the mic so it’s ear level at your first position. If it’s close to the back of a chair or leather chair or sofa, place a towel or blanket over the back of the chair or sofa. Run YPAO and follow any instructions as needed as you go. Make sure nothing is in the way of any speakers and there is no other sound anywhere. Be completely quiet and make sure you’re nowhere near the mic while it’s calibrating or near any speakers. After YPAO, you have several options here which will be up to you. You can run your fronts as Small at 80hz or you can run them Full Range (Large). Your surrounds (PM800’s) should be around 100-120hz. For now, until you get more experienced, don’t touch your levels or distances after calibration. Now you’ll have to experiment and listen and find what you like. Remember distance is really “delay” so don’t think the speaker distance in the AVR should be 10’ from the main listening position (MLP) if it measures 10’ with a tape measure. You want a nice clear sound versus boomy or too much bass.


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+1 to everything above!
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5.1: Power - Denon 4308ci, Fronts - Def Tech BP9040's, Center - Def Tech CLR 2000, Surrounds - Def Tech PM1000's, Sub's - Rythmik E15HP x2, Display - Panasonic TC-55AS530U, TT - Rega Planar 2 w/ Dynavector 10x5
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post #39297 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richstadler View Post
I switched them and it is definitely the speaker. As my question above. Should I get the 800's, 1000's or SR9040's? I am not concerned with price at this point. I played with the sub and it sounds better without it. The room is not big so I am not sure I need a dedicated sub unless you think otherwise. Let me know what you think for the rear speakers and I will order them tomorrow. Thanks again!
Upon starting down the Def Tech track, I started with PM1000's upfront and PM800's in the rears on a 5.1 system. Oh, and the aforementioned SC4000. My room, not a dedicated theater, is much too large for the PM1000's to carry my usage style upfront, hence the upgrade path from SM65's to BP9040's, and ditching the SC4000. When I moved the PM1000's to the rears, where the PM800's were, I did not notice much of a difference if any really, maybe a touch more bass on LF heavy action movie scenes for brief moments. Audyssey, Denon's Room EQ, set a crossover difference of 110htz on the PM1000's vs 120htz PM800's. I noticed little difference. Although worthy of note, I have my rears placed very near field just left and right of my couch, which is equidistant from my front L/R. When I moved the 800's to 6 & 7 channel duty in a 7.1 config, I also notice minimal improvement for the little movie watching I do.


So now I'm trying to sell my PM800's and a Procenter 2000, but I would be just as happy with the 800's as rears as the 1000's.

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post #39298 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richstadler View Post
I switched them and it is definitely the speaker. As my question above. Should I get the 800's, 1000's or SR9040's? I am not concerned with price at this point. I played with the sub and it sounds better without it. The room is not big so I am not sure I need a dedicated sub unless you think otherwise. Let me know what you think for the rear speakers and I will order them tomorrow. Thanks again!


There’s other peeps on here with more experience than me and know these speakers better than me.

Here’s the way look at it... the bigger the driver and the bigger the enclosure the “fuller” the sound. You will get a more full sound and more bass with bigger drivers (speakers, woofers, etc). Yes, the SR’s are nice speakers and give you great surround effects. But if I were choosing between the dual 3.5” SR’s and the 5.25” PM1000 I may have to go with with the PM1000. Someone correct me if I’m wrong here. By the way, I have (4) PM800’s as side and rear surrounds for now and they do fine.

So tell me what all speakers you have? ..placed where?

My BP8080’s

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post #39299 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richstadler View Post
I switched them and it is definitely the speaker. As my question above. Should I get the 800's, 1000's or SR9040's? I am not concerned with price at this point. I played with the sub and it sounds better without it. The room is not big so I am not sure I need a dedicated sub unless you think otherwise. Let me know what you think for the rear speakers and I will order them tomorrow. Thanks again!
I suspect experimenting with placement will yield better results than different speakers.

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post #39300 of 40861 Old 04-19-2018, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richstadler View Post
I switched them and it is definitely the speaker. As my question above. Should I get the 800's, 1000's or SR9040's? I am not concerned with price at this point. I played with the sub and it sounds better without it. The room is not big so I am not sure I need a dedicated sub unless you think otherwise. Let me know what you think for the rear speakers and I will order them tomorrow. Thanks again!
I'm running a similar setup to yours. The biggest difference between them is the subs, and they do make a huge difference. I find the PM-1000's as surrounds work very well, I see no reason to upgrade them. I had the SR8040's and think the PM-1000's work better in my room.

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