Definitive Owners Thread - Page 1341 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #40201 of 40718 Old 01-28-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jscott1797 View Post
Thanks for the quick response. I was hoping to get a bigger front sound stage. More clarity with the mid range. I know the center does most the heavy lifting, so I am open to upgrading that as well. I honestly think it gets loud enough now for my space. My use case is 90% as home theater movie and show watching. Just wondering if there is a worthy overall sound upgrade that fits into my existing system without replacing everything. That being said I don’t want to make an upgrade and not really feel/hear the difference. Trying to gauge if that upgrade is worth my money essentially. Also, I liked the look of the new demand series, but am not attached to them if something can be had for less with equal or better performance.
I haven't had the PM1000s but I did go from a PM800/PC1000 setup to a CLR2002 (then upgrading to a 3000) and SM350 (then upgrading to the 450s) and it was a huge difference, particularly in the low-mids. Much more full, much more 'body'. I never really had a problem with clarity on my PC1000 but moving up did provide a much bigger feel to the center audio.

If you have the room perhaps it would be worth picking up something like a CLR2002 first to get a feel for the change. I know Falconsfan went from a PC1000 to a 2000 and then a CLR2002 and said in this thread it was a marked improvement each time. If you like the bigger center I bet you'd experience a similar jump if you went to something like the SM65s or 450s on your fronts as well.

Again though, I'm not trying to talk down on the Demands as they seem capable speakers. I just know firsthand how good my older Def Techs were.

Very interested to hear the perspective of others who may jump in.
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post #40202 of 40718 Old 01-28-2019, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by KSpan View Post
I haven't had the PM1000s but I did go from a PM800/PC1000 setup to a CLR2002 (then upgrading to a 3000) and SM350 (then upgrading to the 450s) and it was a huge difference, particularly in the low-mids. Much more full, much more 'body'. I never really had a problem with clarity on my PC1000 but moving up did provide a much bigger feel to the center audio.

If you have the room perhaps it would be worth picking up something like a CLR2002 first to get a feel for the change. I know Falconsfan went from a PC1000 to a 2000 and then a CLR2002 and said in this thread it was a marked improvement each time. If you like the bigger center I bet you'd experience a similar jump if you went to something like the SM65s or 450s on your fronts as well.

Again though, I'm not trying to talk down on the Demands as they seem capable speakers. I just know firsthand how good my older Def Techs were.

Very interested to hear the perspective of others who may jump in.
Hmmm it seems I have some more research to do. A quick look I wasn’t seeing a lot of the older models you suggested available anywhere. It seems like the new CS 9000’s have largely replaced the CLR line much like the demands have replaced the SM series. Are these new versions comparable, if so what are the equivalents to the older models you listed? Just trying to get an idea of what the prices look like and the performance I get with each step up. If I can get a deal on a new center and a pair of fronts that would be ideal. I will keep an eye on the new models for price drops for now. I appreciate your feedback so far. Definitely helping to guide me in my research. Looking forward to see what others have to say about both old and new as well.
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post #40203 of 40718 Old 01-29-2019, 05:10 AM
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I haven’t had old. Picked up BP8020’s and CS9040 during a sale where you buy the L and R and get the center free back towards the end of 2018. Loving them that is for sure!


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post #40204 of 40718 Old 01-29-2019, 05:57 AM
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I haven’t had old. Picked up BP8020’s and CS9040 during a sale where you buy the L and R and get the center free back towards the end of 2018. Loving them that is for sure!


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I was looking at full range towers too, but seemed more expensive and just seemed like overkill since I already had dual SVS PB-1000s. I was trying to make something comparable to standalone towers with new bookshelf speakers and potentially a new center. Trying to minimize that amount of money I spend, but at the same time get a worthy upgrade. If this is impossible I will just wait for a bigger upgrade down the road when I can afford towers. Do people with towers that have built in subs still run separate dedicated subs generally? What is the ideal path to go? That may be a loaded question. Please let me know your thoughts everyone.
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post #40205 of 40718 Old 01-29-2019, 05:59 AM
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Haha. Most with towers with integrated subs here probably run dedicated subs. That being said. I currently don’t (wife says NO). Lol we are very happy with the sound. I can always go for more but half of me doesn’t want to clutter our room.


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post #40206 of 40718 Old 01-29-2019, 06:12 AM
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Haha. Most with towers with integrated subs here probably run dedicated subs. That being said. I currently don’t (wife says NO). Lol we are very happy with the sound. I can always go for more but half of me doesn’t want to clutter our room.


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Haha I understand. Thankfully my setup is a dedicated theater area, so my wife shouldn't mind. Part of the reason for my upgrade is that we are moving soon and I am going to have the whole basement to go crazy. I want to make sure I don't waste my money on some good bookshelf speakers if spending a few more bucks on dedicated towers would be significantly better end result. At the same time I would like to utilize my existing equipment as much a possible. I could always use it up in another room instead, though.
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post #40207 of 40718 Old 01-29-2019, 07:12 AM
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Looking at prices for full towers I am just going to rule that out now. I will stick with my current dual subs and get some good bookshelf speakers. Which ones is still up in the air.
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post #40208 of 40718 Old 01-29-2019, 09:59 AM
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I concur with the CLR2002 that @KSpan mentioned. I just gave my dad one and sold a buddy one. i loved them on my previous setups. great centers that can be had online used or refurbished for pretty cheap these days.

SM350s are great bookshelves as well. Especially since you have dual subs. Lows should be GTG.

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post #40209 of 40718 Old 01-29-2019, 10:22 AM
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I concur with the CLR2002 that @KSpan mentioned. I just gave my dad one and sold a buddy one. i loved them on my previous setups. great centers that can be had online used or refurbished for pretty cheap these days.

SM350s are great bookshelves as well. Especially since you have dual subs. Lows should be GTG.
There used to be a great refurb seller on ebay called bajawaverunner. That doesn't seem to exist anymore did they change their name?
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post #40210 of 40718 Old 01-29-2019, 11:08 AM
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There used to be a great refurb seller on ebay called bajawaverunner. That doesn't seem to exist anymore did they change their name?
They are not listed as "bajawaverunner" on eBay anymore. This is the current outlet for them. https://www.ebay.com/usr/definitivet...88.m1543.l2754

I noticed that during the holidays they sold 24 pairs of SM 450's that must have been in the back of the warehouse somewhere. Some lucky folks scored on those for around $250 a pair. I was wondering if any members here were lucky enough to get a pair?
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post #40211 of 40718 Old 01-30-2019, 12:21 PM
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There used to be a great refurb seller on ebay called bajawaverunner. That doesn't seem to exist anymore did they change their name?
They were great. I bought my bp9040's from them along with other DT speakers over the years. My understanding is they were a 3rd party bought out by DT last year and thus are now the official factory outlet for DT referb's and returns.

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post #40212 of 40718 Old 01-30-2019, 01:02 PM
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They were great. I bought my bp9040's from them along with other DT speakers over the years. My understanding is they were a 3rd party bought out by DT last year and thus are now the official factory outlet for DT referb's and returns.


That’s much what it looks like.


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post #40213 of 40718 Old 01-31-2019, 09:58 AM
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I just ended up with a procenter 100, 2 promonitor 1000's and 2 promonitor 800's.

I got them, a onkyo txnr777, a phillips 4k player plus a klipsch 10" ref subwoofer as a package. I needed the receiver and 4k player but bought it all.

Are these speakers decent? the promonitors look like nice little units, definitely smaller speakers then I am used to though. The procenter 1000 is probably the weak link?

If you had the promonitor 1000's and 800's, which center channel would you use if size didnt matter? is the procenter a good speaker? Its just a basic living room/bedroom setup. Not going behind the AT screen lol.

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post #40214 of 40718 Old 01-31-2019, 12:05 PM
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I just ended up with a procenter 100, 2 promonitor 1000's and 2 promonitor 800's.

I got them, a onkyo txnr777, a phillips 4k player plus a klipsch 10" ref subwoofer for $325 :-). I needed the receiver and 4k player but bought it all. So I paid maybe $82 for the speakers ($325/4), about $17 per speaker lol.

Are these speakers decent? the promonitors look like nice little units, definitely smaller speakers then I am used to though. The procenter 1000 is probably the weak link?

If you had the promonitor 1000's and 800's, which center channel would you use if size didnt matter? is the procenter a good speaker? Its just a basic living room/bedroom setup. Not going behind the AT screen lol.

Upgrade the Pro Center 1000 to the Pro Center 2000. A much, much better center channel to go with the PM 1000's.
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post #40215 of 40718 Old 01-31-2019, 05:10 PM
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Got them home and hooked up. First I used my cerwin vega xd3 monitors amp, garbage. So then I threw the 2 promonitor 1000s on my outlaw 1050 and put some music on...much better! Actually kind of impressed since they're so small. Its "definitive" I won't be buying a procenter 2000 for anything near what people are asking but I would like to hear the differences. They do sound extremely larger then they are, subwoofer is needed for sure but without the sub they do ok with low volume music. For a small room they are a great little speaker.

Not impressed with the procenter 1000 at all, but I can see the 800s for surrounds. The procenter 1000 is cheap on Ebay used, the 2000 not so much, says something.

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post #40216 of 40718 Old 02-01-2019, 12:05 AM
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Got them home and hooked up. First I used my cerwin vega xd3 monitors amp, garbage. So then I threw the 2 promonitor 1000s on my outlaw 1050 and put some music on...much better! Actually kind of impressed since they're so small. Its "definitive" I won't be buying a procenter 2000 for anything near what people are asking but I would like to hear the differences. They do sound extremely larger then they are, subwoofer is needed for sure but without the sub they do ok with low volume music. For a small room they are a great little speaker.

Not impressed with the procenter 1000 at all, but I can see the 800s for surrounds. The procenter 1000 is cheap on Ebay used, the 2000 not so much, says something.
A similar conversation was just had with another user in the comments above. If you want to hear a real difference and have the space, keep an eye out for a CLR2002 or CLR2000.
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post #40217 of 40718 Old 02-01-2019, 06:47 AM
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Its funny how fast i was able to unload my 2 - CLR2002s, pro 1000 sub, pro 1000 center but man its like folks have no love for the SM350s anymore.

I loved them in my 5.1 bedroom setup. They are an amazing bookshelf speaker.

I must say though my 7004s have been worth every single penny. Ive had them for probably 10 years now and they still sound amazing. I would buy them again 10 times over.
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post #40218 of 40718 Old 02-01-2019, 07:27 AM
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I got no love for the pro 1000 center lol. Dont know whats "pro" about it. My pinnacle p5.5 rocks compared to it, but its also got 4 5.25" drivers and is 32.5" wide.

Thanks for the recommendation.

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post #40219 of 40718 Old 02-01-2019, 07:52 AM
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Its funny how fast i was able to unload my 2 - CLR2002s, pro 1000 sub, pro 1000 center but man its like folks have no love for the SM350s anymore.

I loved them in my 5.1 bedroom setup. They are an amazing bookshelf speaker.

I must say though my 7004s have been worth every single penny. Ive had them for probably 10 years now and they still sound amazing. I would buy them again 10 times over.
I don't see much love for the C-1 center here either. I currently use it and it works well for me. It uses the same drivers as the SM350's. I sit only 7' away from it and have it set to small @ 80 hz.



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post #40220 of 40718 Old 02-01-2019, 11:02 AM
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I got no love for the pro 1000 center lol. Dont know whats "pro" about it. My pinnacle p5.5 rocks compared to it, but its also got 4 5.25" drivers and is 32.5" wide.

Thanks for the recommendation.
There is nothing "pro" about it, that's for sure. I ran the PC2000 w/ PM1000's up front as my starter DT set up. Since you stated size is not a factor, I concur with the others to keep a look out for a CLR2000 or CLR2002. I've had trouble finding a 2002 locally for a fair price, but did pick up a 2000. No comparison to the PC series. Far superior.


IIRC, I think I sold my PC2000, along with a pair of PM800's for $225 to the same buyer. All in perfect condition. So I'd say a used PC2000 by itself should go for around $125 or so, plus/minus. Very few people are interested in buying the entry level models used (i.e. PC1000). In my assessment, most used buyers already have the entry level product(s) and are looking to upgrade on the cheap because they should have stepped up from the beginning.


That's another reason to not go cheap on the first pass when buying a new system. There is no one to sell to when you figured out you need more, because most others are in the same boat.

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post #40221 of 40718 Old 02-01-2019, 06:00 PM
 
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Haha. Most with towers with integrated subs here probably run dedicated subs. That being said. I currently don’t (wife says NO). Lol we are very happy with the sound. I can always go for more but half of me doesn’t want to clutter our room.


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Bass shakers instead??
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post #40222 of 40718 Old 02-01-2019, 06:02 PM
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Just curious how you guys set up your def techs. Do you use room correction like Audyssey or Ypao? Or do you set them up manually. I have read many time that room correction has a hard time with bipolar speakers.
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Just curious how you guys set up your def techs. Do you use room correction like Audyssey or Ypao? Or do you set them up manually. I have read many time that room correction has a hard time with bipolar speakers.


Run Audyssey through a few times and then manual adjustments when watching demo scenes.


Im still trying to find the perfect settings on my subs with the towers all having subs. It depends on the movie Im watching sometimes. Some movies cause an earthquake and sometimes when Im watching a bass heavy film I feel like my HSUs should dig deeper.


Any suggestions besides keep toying with it?
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Run Audyssey through a few times and then manual adjustments when watching demo scenes.


Im still trying to find the perfect settings on my subs with the towers all having subs. It depends on the movie Im watching sometimes. Some movies cause an earthquake and sometimes when Im watching a bass heavy film I feel like my HSUs should dig deeper.


Any suggestions besides keep toying with it?
It could be that you are getting cancelations at certain frequencies because of all the subs. As I was told mixing different subs don’t always add up to more bass. Are you runnng them large? One thing that I noticed is bluray movies differ in bass a lot. I follow that thread where they graph each movie. Some movies like The Nun have really loud low bass that makes my room sound bad. Things inside the walls vibrate. Play the new Halloween trailer on Vudu. It sounds terrible in my room as the bass is very low and cranked up. I have two Psa v1811, bp7000s, and bp 3000s. Also, many guys run their subs hot like plus 6db over what audissey or Ypao sets them as. The only way that I know of to see what exactly is going on in your room with all the subs is to use a program like REW. I have to learn how to use it myself.

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post #40225 of 40718 Old 02-01-2019, 06:34 PM
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Run Audyssey through a few times and then manual adjustments when watching demo scenes.


Im still trying to find the perfect settings on my subs with the towers all having subs. It depends on the movie Im watching sometimes. Some movies cause an earthquake and sometimes when Im watching a bass heavy film I feel like my HSUs should dig deeper.


Any suggestions besides keep toying with it?
And I’m thinking the problem with your subs and mine when playing movies that have cranked up low bass at around 20hz is that is where are subs tuning point is. So they are not really able to handle playing those scenes loud if that makes sense. The Nun, Hunter/Killer to name a couple. WE need bigger subs and a special room that can handle low frequencies. The bass in a few scenes in those movies I mentioned is totally crazy. Even if a sub could play that low and loud the room vibrations will drive you crazy. The Blu-ray’s that play 25hz and lower at -15 to -10db give me trouble. Meaning that the room vibrations are as loud as the soundtrack and it is very distracting. This also translates to shakers. Those particular movies will provide way more shake than your normal run of the mill action movie. So you will most likely need to turn them down.

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post #40226 of 40718 Old 02-01-2019, 08:20 PM
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Just curious how you guys set up your def techs. Do you use room correction like Audyssey or Ypao? Or do you set them up manually. I have read many time that room correction has a hard time with bipolar speakers.
I use Audyssey XT32 and run all 8 mic positions clustered around the MLP. I have a separate sub (HSU VTF15-MK2) which is way better suited for digging deep. Not a good idea to mix LFE with different quality/capable subs. The 10" woofers (I don't call them subs) in my 9060s roll off -3dB around 32hz while my HSU goes to 16-20hz easy.

I prefer small with either 60 or 80hz crossover. With a 12db/octave slope the towers still use the woofer down to 30 or 40hz. It's great to use the LFE if not using separate sub (or Large).
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I use Audyssey XT32 and run all 8 mic positions clustered around the MLP. I have a separate sub (HSU VTF15-MK2) which is way better suited for digging deep. Not a good idea to mix LFE with different quality/capable subs. The 10" woofers (I don't call them subs) in my 9060s roll off -3dB around 32hz while my HSU goes to 16-20hz easy.

I prefer small with either 60 or 80hz crossover. With a 12db/octave slope the towers still use the woofer down to 30 or 40hz. It's great to use the LFE if not using separate sub (or Large).
Thanks for the info. A while back I was experimenting with crossovers and the Bp7000s. I think I set them at 60 and played a 30hz tone. I was surprised to hear that they were still producing pretty good amount of bass even though they were crossed over so much higher.
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post #40228 of 40718 Old 02-02-2019, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamCrusher View Post
Run Audyssey through a few times and then manual adjustments when watching demo scenes.


Im still trying to find the perfect settings on my subs with the towers all having subs. It depends on the movie Im watching sometimes. Some movies cause an earthquake and sometimes when Im watching a bass heavy film I feel like my HSUs should dig deeper.


Any suggestions besides keep toying with it?
Studios are starting to put out discs with filtered/neutered bass. Noone knows specifically why, but it pisses me off. Users here are figuring out the filters on a movie-by-movie basis and correcting them, but you need a MiniDSP. See the "Bass EQ for filtered movies" thread.

I haven't started yet, but I'm going to go down that UMIK-1, REW, MiniDSP rabbit hole soon! heh

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It could be that you are getting cancelations at certain frequencies because of all the subs. As I was told mixing different subs don’t always add up to more bass. Are you runnng them large? One thing that I noticed is bluray movies differ in bass a lot. I follow that thread where they graph each movie. Some movies like The Nun have really loud low bass that makes my room sound bad. Things inside the walls vibrate. Play the new Halloween trailer on Vudu. It sounds terrible in my room as the bass is very low and cranked up. I have two Psa v1811, bp7000s, and bp 3000s. Also, many guys run their subs hot like plus 6db over what audissey or Ypao sets them as. The only way that I know of to see what exactly is going on in your room with all the subs is to use a program like REW. I have to learn how to use it myself.
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And I’m thinking the problem with your subs and mine when playing movies that have cranked up low bass at around 20hz is that is where are subs tuning point is. So they are not really able to handle playing those scenes loud if that makes sense. The Nun, Hunter/Killer to name a couple. WE need bigger subs and a special room that can handle low frequencies. The bass in a few scenes in those movies I mentioned is totally crazy. Even if a sub could play that low and loud the room vibrations will drive you crazy. The Blu-ray’s that play 25hz and lower at -15 to -10db give me trouble. Meaning that the room vibrations are as loud as the soundtrack and it is very distracting. This also translates to shakers. Those particular movies will provide way more shake than your normal run of the mill action movie. So you will most likely need to turn them down.
*raises hand* I'm one of the ones that has my Dual subs set 6dB "hot", and a small bit of EQing of my subs on top of that. No "special" room here, in fact my space is open into over half of my house! I do have several rattles I need to fix......but the couch shakin' is still awesome! You mentioned 2 VERY good movies, The Nun and Hunter Killer rock my house. Thor Ragnarok on the other hand, was more of a whimper :/
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post #40229 of 40718 Old 02-02-2019, 10:01 AM
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I guess my question is why does dt recommend a manual setup when using bipolar speakers? What will room correction get wrong? Is it distance or level?
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post #40230 of 40718 Old 02-02-2019, 10:46 AM
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I guess my question is why does dt recommend a manual setup when using bipolar speakers? What will room correction get wrong? Is it distance or level?
Most speaker manufacturers are going to advise against it anyway, because if the auto setup does something incorrectly, it will affect the way the speaker sounds.

Whether it's a crossover too low or too high, or like how Audyssey uses midrange compensation and roll offs in their curves by default etc.

They also advertise their towers as an all in one solution with built in subwoofers and LFE line.

However, movie home theater guys know how important a capable true subwoofer and optimally placed is to the experience, and also understand how to check, measure, tweak, and properly integrate and set up. I do want to equalize and filter my listening position, but I also use the "flat" curve and enable cinemaEQ to tune down the treble. I like the concept of midrange compensation from Audyssey but I would prefer the speakers handle it internally how they were designed.

I've always measured and double checked all Audyssey results and it's never got anything wrong, whether it's levels or distances or -3dB points to roll off. If you check it and something is wrong, then something happened during setup and if you run it again it will probably get it right.

For music, I would probably prefer running the Full/Large in 2 channel though anyway.
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