Energy Owners Thread - Page 1868 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #56011 of 56066 Old 06-22-2020, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I'm willing to bet the "too bassey" part is Dynamic EQ. Try adjusting the "Reference Level Offset" to 10dB or even 15dB, which will mitigate how aggressively it boosts the bass + surrounds. I've always felt personally that DEQ was "too hot" on the bass boost going at full strength.

Dynamic Volume essentially reduces the swings between loud parts and soft parts -- soft stuff (dialogue, ambient background noise, etc) is louder, and loud stuff (explosions, gunshots, etc) is quieter. What this means is that if turn Dyn Vol, it will sound "louder" because dialogue is boosted and all these softer sounds are now much more audible. But when the explosion hits, it won't kick with the full dynamic range.

Also, DV is more than just "dumb" compression (thus the name "dynamic"). It's actually looking ahead a few milliseconds and adjusting the volume in advance of loud/soft parts to keep things more level. You can almost pretend that there's a little gremlin inside your AVR working the volume dial before you have to; the aggressiveness of the gremlin's volume adjustments (dynamic range compression) is controlled by the Light / Medium / Heavy settings.

So whether you use DV or not is about the context. If you had a quiet theater with zero volume restrictions and want to hear the full dynamic range, leave it off. But as deano noted, in a living room context where there is a high noise floor (open windows, people talking, the refrigerator in the adjacent room humming, etc) what happens is you start turning up the volume because the dialogue is hard to hear.... and then the explosion blows you out of the room and you jump for the remote. A high noise floor effectively reduces dynamic range (since you have to turn it louder to get the soft stuff above the noise floor so it's audible), in which case using Dyn Vol on "Light" is a good compromise.
Thanks man! Audyssey set my RC-10 crossovers at 60, which seems okay but some people prefer 80?

Also it set my back surrounds (which are RC-minis) to 90, which I thought was too low so I bumped them to 120. In fact it set my heights, surrounds and center at all different levels and but the surrounds lower than the center. Seemed odd to me. but I think I read, on your site, where these are sort of "dummy" settings.
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post #56012 of 56066 Old 06-22-2020, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LeeDiggler View Post
Thanks man! Audyssey set my RC-10 crossovers at 60, which seems okay but some people prefer 80?

Also it set my back surrounds (which are RC-minis) to 90, which I thought was too low so I bumped them to 120. In fact it set my heights, surrounds and center at all different levels and but the surrounds lower than the center. Seemed odd to me. but I think I read, on your site, where these are sort of "dummy" settings.
Keep in mind that your speakers are rated in an anechoic sound chamber, whereas when they are measured by Audyssey, they are affected by their physical location in your room... which many times results in enhanced bass response... or in some cases, their placement can also result in a slightly higher crossover recomendation than what you expected... at any rate, by all means, raise up the crossover settings to at least 80hz to let your sub do the heavy lifting, but do not lower them below the measured recommended levels..
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post #56013 of 56066 Old 06-22-2020, 02:25 PM
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Crossovers are set to the "minimum acceptable" value based on the in-room measurements. It's not necessarily the "best" setting, just the lowest value that's higher than the measured -3dB point of the speakers.

The RC-10's have very good bass response for a small bookshelf speaker, especially with the rear port shoved against the wall. I would definitely raise them to 80Hz.

As to the different levels on the Minis... the bass response is mostly of a function of the room + placement. Two identical speakers will measure totally differently in the bass region depending on where they are placed in the room.
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post #56014 of 56066 Old 06-24-2020, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Crossovers are set to the "minimum acceptable" value based on the in-room measurements. It's not necessarily the "best" setting, just the lowest value that's higher than the measured -3dB point of the speakers.

The RC-10's have very good bass response for a small bookshelf speaker, especially with the rear port shoved against the wall. I would definitely raise them to 80Hz.

As to the different levels on the Minis... the bass response is mostly of a function of the room + placement. Two identical speakers will measure totally differently in the bass region depending on where they are placed in the room.

I turned reference level offset to 15, and I had the bass on the sub a tad over half way so I put it right at 50/50.

What sucks is, yeah the bass was a little heavy but I loved the extra sound from the surrounds. I hate when you can barely hear surround effects.

My compromise was to bump the trim in the surrounds up a little.

You def suggest keeping the dynamic EQ ON if I don't constantly blast my system at reference levels? In home theater people generally suggest keeping all "extras" OFF, but it seems like EQ has actual value, unlike, say, a lot of those TV settings that folks typically advise to keep off.
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post #56015 of 56066 Old 06-24-2020, 05:08 PM
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People in HT say "turn all the extras off!" because of a purist mentality. It's one thing if you have a dedicated, custom built HT room with a low noise floor and good sound isolation and you can turn it up to a comfortably loud level without any restrictions. If that's the case, you probably don't need anything "dynamic".

But in the real world, people have living room setups, they have sleeping wives (or wives who don't like loud explosions), they have crappy noise floors because it's a mixed use space, etc.

So it's really a red herring to say "turn all the extras off!" because it's assuming a context which isn't actually the case for many situations. Audyssey's "dynamic" features solve specific problems, so if you don't have those problems then there's nothing wrong with using them. Dynamic EQ solves the problem of reduced bass / immersion at lower volumes (solved by boosting the frequency response + surround levels) and Dynamic Volume solves the problem of excessive volume swings (you turn it up to hear the dialogue than run for the remote to turn it down when the explosions start because you don't want to be yelled at).

Not everyone has a "reference" theater, so it's senseless to follow recommendations that were designed for an environment that you don't actually have.

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post #56016 of 56066 Old 06-25-2020, 11:21 AM
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FYI, Newegg has CB5 for $59/pair with free shipping.

Wonder how long ago they were made. I'm guessing 10+ years?

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post #56017 of 56066 Old 06-25-2020, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeDiggler View Post
You def suggest keeping the dynamic EQ ON if I don't constantly blast my system at reference levels? In home theater people generally suggest keeping all "extras" OFF, but it seems like EQ has actual value, unlike, say, a lot of those TV settings that folks typically advise to keep off.
Dynamic EQ is a great feature, IMO, and it has nothing to do with room acoustics per se. It has to do with how human hearing works. At lower volumes, we don't perceive bass and treble frequencies the same way we perceive midrange. Dynamic EQ compensates for this "deficiency" in our hearing by gradually bumping up bass and treble as you lower the volume. I find it very useful. Most higher end powered speakers do it automatically through internal DSP.
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post #56018 of 56066 Old 06-27-2020, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
People in HT say "turn all the extras off!" because of a purist mentality. It's one thing if you have a dedicated, custom built HT room with a low noise floor and good sound isolation and you can turn it up to a comfortably loud level without any restrictions. If that's the case, you probably don't need anything "dynamic".

But in the real world, people have living room setups, they have sleeping wives (or wives who don't like loud explosions), they have crappy noise floors because it's a mixed use space, etc.

So it's really a red herring to say "turn all the extras off!" because it's assuming a context which isn't actually the case for many situations. Audyssey's "dynamic" features solve specific problems, so if you don't have those problems then there's nothing wrong with using them. Dynamic EQ solves the problem of reduced bass / immersion at lower volumes (solved by boosting the frequency response + surround levels) and Dynamic Volume solves the problem of excessive volume swings (you turn it up to hear the dialogue than run for the remote to turn it down when the explosions start because you don't want to be yelled at).

Not everyone has a "reference" theater, so it's senseless to follow recommendations that were designed for an environment that you don't actually have.

I think I have all setting to my liking now. Home theater sounds magnificent!

I'd really like some improvement on vinyl though. And it may just be the limits to a system like this for playing vinyl.

I've experimented with each sound mode type and Dolby surround seems to sound best. I tried two channel, since this is what vinyl records are designed for, but it doesn't sound as good to me, quality wise and room-filling wise.

Previously, before getting the RC-10s I used 5 Channel Stereo with vinyl. It just sounded better and fuller with the small, RC-minis.

One problem I notice is that it seems like the RC-Mini Center Channel speaker is doing the brunt of the work, even when using the "Center spread" option. I'd prefer the RC-10s to be taking over the reigns more so since they are a better speaker.

Yet, again just 2 channel doesn't sound that good.

I could likely adjust my system to sound better with vinyl but that would mess up my near-perfect preferred settings I have for Home Theater. Also digital music (Pandora etc.) sounds really good.

I have a Fluance RT-81 turntable. Worth mentioning that it may be time to change the cartridge. I have had it since 2016 but it doesn't appear to be degrading.

Last edited by LeeDiggler; 06-27-2020 at 02:03 PM.
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post #56019 of 56066 Old 06-28-2020, 12:33 PM
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I think I have all setting to my liking now. Home theater sounds magnificent!

I'd really like some improvement on vinyl though. And it may just be the limits to a system like this for playing vinyl.

I've experimented with each sound mode type and Dolby surround seems to sound best. I tried two channel, since this is what vinyl records are designed for, but it doesn't sound as good to me, quality wise and room-filling wise.

Previously, before getting the RC-10s I used 5 Channel Stereo with vinyl. It just sounded better and fuller with the small, RC-minis.

One problem I notice is that it seems like the RC-Mini Center Channel speaker is doing the brunt of the work, even when using the "Center spread" option. I'd prefer the RC-10s to be taking over the reigns more so since they are a better speaker.

Yet, again just 2 channel doesn't sound that good.

I could likely adjust my system to sound better with vinyl but that would mess up my near-perfect preferred settings I have for Home Theater. Also digital music (Pandora etc.) sounds really good.

I have a Fluance RT-81 turntable. Worth mentioning that it may be time to change the cartridge. I have had it since 2016 but it doesn't appear to be degrading.
*UPDATE

I am a bit confused as to what settings can be changed and curtailed in each individual input and which settings seem to be universal.

For example I turned Dynamic Volume OFF in Cable/Sat and Blu Ray. I was messing with settings while playing an LP, which I have set on the CD input and noticed Dynamic Volume was ON. I turned it OFF and now I am much happier with the way Vinyl records sound!

But I'd like to turn my "Dialogue Level Adjust" to 0 for records but keep it bumped up to 7 for movies but it is a universal setting, along with some other trims.
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post #56020 of 56066 Old 06-28-2020, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by LeeDiggler View Post
*UPDATE

I am a bit confused as to what settings can be changed and curtailed in each individual input and which settings seem to be universal.

For example I turned Dynamic Volume OFF in Cable/Sat and Blu Ray. I was messing with settings while playing an LP, which I have set on the CD input and noticed Dynamic Volume was ON. I turned it OFF and now I am much happier with the way Vinyl records sound!

But I'd like to turn my "Dialogue Level Adjust" to 0 for records but keep it bumped up to 7 for movies but it is a universal setting, along with some other trims.
Not for nothing, but it appears that this point that you need to download your receiver's manual and use Control F to look up your settings in question and see what is what.... But, if you happen to have a Denon, then some of your input specific settings may be taken care of by making use of the the Quick Select functions...
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post #56021 of 56066 Old 06-28-2020, 05:30 PM
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On Denon/Marantz, pretty much everything in the Audio section of the GUI as well as the Option menu (Ch Level) and video processing (scaling, conversion, etc) is INPUT SPECIFIC.

So that means Restorer, all Audyssey settings, etc. are by saved input.

Surround mode preferences are also saved by input. So on your video input you may want to upmix 2ch to surround, but on another input you might want it to play in Stereo.
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post #56022 of 56066 Old 06-29-2020, 05:35 PM
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So, apparently this is Energy's definition of a 4.5" driver:



Call me unimpressed. For comparison, this is a 4" driver from Dayton:




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post #56023 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 04:14 AM
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So, apparently this is Energy's definition of a 4.5" driver:



Call me unimpressed. For comparison, this is a 4" driver from Dayton:



In the interest of fairness, your tape measure is not positioned the same in each picture. It would appear that Energy’s 4.5” driver is the same size as the Dayton 4” driver.

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post #56024 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 04:56 AM
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In the interest of fairness, your tape measure is not positioned the same in each picture. It would appear that Energy’s 4.5” driver is the same size as the Dayton 4” driver.
That was going to be my exact comment.

While I see the point of the OPs comment, I would put more stock into the listening critique of the two speakers.

Though, given the subjective nature of audio listening, it would be hard to give an unbiased listening critique if you've already cited the Energy's as unimpressive based on surround size.

In theory I'm a fan of Dayton Audio. Theory because I've researched them plenty but have not yet purchased.

I'd love to hear an unbiased listening comparison.



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post #56025 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 05:49 AM
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In the interest of fairness, your tape measure is not positioned the same in each picture. It would appear that Energy’s 4.5” driver is the same size as the Dayton 4” driver.
Right. Still nowhere near 4.5" though.

I bought these CB5 thinking they have larger drivers than my current Daytons. Apparently that is not the case.

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post #56026 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 05:53 AM
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I'd love to hear an unbiased listening comparison.
Yup, that is still to come. I took those photos right after I pulled the CB5 out of the box.

The main issue with the Daytons is very low efficiency (84 dB on paper). The CB5 claims 89 dB on paper, but if their efficiency specs are as accurate as their driver diameter measurements, then I'm not holding my breath.

Granted, there is more to a speaker than just efficiency. I will do some listening in the coming days to see if I like the overall sound signature any better than the Daytons.

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Though, given the subjective nature of audio listening, it would be hard to give an unbiased listening critique if you've already cited the Energy's as unimpressive based on surround size.
The 'unimpressed' comment was purely with regard to the claimed vs actual driver size as I have not listened to them yet.

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post #56027 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 06:02 AM
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Understood, thanks! Looking forward to the comparison!

One thing I've noticed over the years with *my* listening (and I'll lead with I'm a believer in listener burn-in, not speaker burn-in), is on initial listening, when changing to a new sounding speaker, my initial reaction is "this doesn't sound right", until I've had time to adjust to the new sound signature.

Then I begin picking up on nuances not heard in the previous speaker. Detail missed or gained with the replacement, sound stage changes, etc.

So... Give it some time

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post #56028 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 06:12 AM
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Totally agreed on "listener burn-in." Thanks.
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post #56029 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 06:55 AM
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Right. Still nowhere near 4.5" though.

I bought these CB5 thinking they have larger drivers than my current Daytons. Apparently that is not the case.
My comment didn’t claim the driver to be 4.5”, simply that your photo showed that you positioned the tape measure differently between the two speakers. Nowhere near? It’s a half inch off, not two inches off. Not sure what part of the driver Energy used for measurement.

As Shannon stated, however, it’s the quality that matters, and it would be interesting to see an unbiased lab test/measurements between the two.

Glad that you’re enjoying your Dayton’s

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post #56030 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 07:54 AM
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My comment didn’t claim the driver to be 4.5”, simply that your photo showed that you positioned the tape measure differently between the two speakers. Nowhere near? It’s a half inch off, not two inches off.
Using digital caliper at the widest spot, measuring only to the end of the rubber surround, both drivers are around 3.6" so they're both misleading from that standpoint, but the Energy one more so, obviously.

Quote:
Not sure what part of the driver Energy used for measurement.
Yeah, I'd like to know as well. I am missing almost an inch somewhere

I've seen something similar in my JBL Arena 130 speakers. JBL claims they have 7" drivers while in reality they are exact same size as other manufacturers' 6.5" drivers.

And yes, of course, how they sound is much more important.

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post #56031 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 10:08 AM
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Using digital caliper at the widest spot, measuring only to the end of the rubber surround, both drivers are around 3.6" so they're both misleading from that standpoint, but the Energy one more so, obviously.

Yeah, I'd like to know as well. I am missing almost an inch somewhere

I've seen something similar in my JBL Arena 130 speakers. JBL claims they have 7" drivers while in reality they are exact same size as other manufacturers' 6.5" drivers.

And yes, of course, how they sound is much more important.
I am beginning to think speaker manufacturers use the same measuring principle as stock at lumberyards!... EX: 2"x4".. etc...
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post #56032 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 10:27 AM
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I am beginning to think speaker manufacturers use the same measuring principle as stock at lumberyards!... EX: 2"x4".. etc...
LOL!

I think it's supposed to be the diameter of the overall speaker frame and not just the moving part (cone). Obviously with these particular speakers, the driver frame sits behind the front fascia, making it difficult to measure, unless you take the speaker apart.



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post #56033 of 56066 Old 06-30-2020, 11:13 AM
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FYI, it looks like the 4.5" is the distance between the screws/lugbolts on the CB5.

In the case of Dayton, that distance between screws is 4.1".

Yet they don't apply the same methodology to the tweeter measurements. Go figure.

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post #56034 of 56066 Old 07-01-2020, 07:46 AM
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Hello. I don't know if I'm posting in the right place, and I apologize if I'm not. I have a set of Energy RVS L / C / R + RVSS. I have a 1910 Denon, Klipsch R-100SW Subwoofer, (RW-10D and one pair of RC Mini that I am not currently using) and my room measures 18x20. I would like to know if it would be a good choice to replace the rear speakers "RVSS dipole" with 4 speakers "Klipsch Quintet II $ 75 cad". I'm a newbie and just want to have a good 7.1 experience (I accept suggestions). The smaller speakers are easy to place on the wall. I thought about using Energy Take 2 but the reviews said they sounded cheap. I would not like to spend a lot of money now because this is not my definitive set. Thank you very much.

Denon 1910 - Energy RVS / RC-mini - Klipsch Quintet II - Sub R-100SW / RW-10D - BenQ Projector.

Last edited by Ryan-x; 07-01-2020 at 09:01 AM.
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post #56035 of 56066 Old 07-01-2020, 09:39 AM
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I actually own the RC Mini and like them better than the Quintet II but if you're getting 4 of the Quintets for $75 that's a cheap deal. You probably wouldn't find 2 more RC Mini's for $75 so go for the Quintet II deal.
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post #56036 of 56066 Old 07-01-2020, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
I actually own the RC Mini and like them better than the Quintet II but if you're getting 4 of the Quintets for $75 that's a cheap deal. You probably wouldn't find 2 more RC Mini's for $75 so go for the Quintet II deal.
Do you believe Quintet would play better than Take 2?
I don't know any of them, I have no idea.
There is the option of Take 5.2 for $ 100 cad.
I even thought about turning off the driver and tweeter on one side of the RVSS to remove the dipole effect, but I don't know if I should.
Thank you so much for helping.
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post #56037 of 56066 Old 07-01-2020, 02:33 PM
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Quintets and Takes both have 3.5" driver but the Quintet is in a bigger cabinet so might play a little deeper. Cool thing about the Quintets is if the stand is included you can use those as wall mounts.

I actually have the RVSS on stands as 5.1 surrounds in another setup. They're much bigger than any of the other speakers you mentioned. I didn't think you could turn off any of the drivers unless your disconnect the wires by removing the speaker from the cabinet.

The Quintet has a much higher sensitivity than than Take 5.2 so it doesn't take as much power to drive them to the same volume levels. the 5.2 will have a mellower more laid back sound profile. Quintets will be brighter because of the horn tweeter. That's something for you to decide which you like better.

Get whatever speaker is easiest for you to mount
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post #56038 of 56066 Old 07-01-2020, 03:14 PM
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Thank you for your help.

I will try Quintet then.

They will come with banana plug and stands. I hope I like it 🙂

In 2 years I will give a big upgrade, but until then I want to enjoy the long Canadian winter watching movies.

What do you think about the RVSS sound?

I have never heard speakers from Polk, Paradigm or Klipsch to compare the quality.

Thank you again.

Denon 1910 - Energy RVS / RC-mini - Klipsch Quintet II - Sub R-100SW / RW-10D - BenQ Projector.
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post #56039 of 56066 Old 07-01-2020, 05:17 PM
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I'm trying mount RC-10 speakers to the ceiling for atmos. What would you recommend to mount those speakers to the ceiling?
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post #56040 of 56066 Old 07-01-2020, 06:07 PM
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RC-10 are pretty bulky to hang from a ceiling. I would buy something like these and mount high on the wall and angle down towards main listening position.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MZE0O8U...1mE7DB2ucBzDPw

https://www.amazon.com/VideoSecu-Cla...3651806&sr=8-3

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