PSB Speakers Owners thread - Page 234 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6991 of 7170 Old 09-02-2018, 11:23 PM
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What does that mean? Where are they made now?
China, where else? Same prices for you, more profit for them, fewer jobs for Canadians. Great, eh?
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post #6992 of 7170 Old 09-03-2018, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Chubtoad View Post
For fellow Canadians, What online stores are carrying the PSB Imagine B Speakers? I have only come across one at the moment selling a pair for $1275 after tax with free shipping. It doesn't seem easy to find online retailers carrying these particular speakers for some reason.
i am a psb lover. with two full psb systems in my house. if you are watching for good deals try this link.
(wont let me post the link yet. ebay, hifigroup)
i've ordered alphas through them and i believe the receipt had lenbrook industries on it. seems to be their online selloff site. inventory changes so keep an eye on the site, but i picked up alphas brand new for $100 canadian. (i live in london ont) showed up the next day.
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post #6993 of 7170 Old 09-03-2018, 11:46 AM
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I'm thinking of buying a pair of PSB 800 , what do you guys think about them are there any major cons..

here they are:
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-haut-parleur...ationFlag=true

will bargain for 100 $ for the pair.
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post #6994 of 7170 Old 09-06-2018, 06:25 PM
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Does anyone know if PSB still sells tweeter for the original Image series? I need to replace the TW1-2AN/P in my 4T and 1B.

I phoned the PSB parts department twice and left 2 messages but have not heard back from them in the past 10 days.

Any other channels to find the replacement?
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post #6995 of 7170 Old 09-06-2018, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by only f2.8 View Post
Does anyone know if PSB still sells tweeter for the original Image series? I need to replace the TW1-2AN/P in my 4T and 1B.

I phoned the PSB parts department twice and left 2 messages but have not heard back from them in the past 10 days.

Any other channels to find the replacement?
I bought two off eBay a couple of years ago. I don't think I've seen any since. I bought some fabric tweeters that someone recommended as replacements (they thought they sounded better than the metal domes). I actually ended up using those on my front height B15s as they seem to have really good off-axis response and I could only aim they downward a couple of degrees. I removed the extra originals in case I blow any more (I had three blown tweeters at one point, but then I've now got 13 PSB speakers, 9 of which use those exact tweeters and two of which have two each so that's a lot of tweeters. If worst comes to worst, you can always buy some used image speakers and cannibalize them for parts.

OTOH, I've found the newer titanium tweeters (used in my rear surround and rear surround height speakers with the CS500 and X1T) sound more or less identical to my ears (I did A/B tests between the Image T45 and Imagine X1T which have the same rated response even though they're two generations apart and the midrange on the X1T are ceramic filled and the tweeters now made of titanium. I still couldn't reliably tell them apart, but the X1T could squeeze into the back corner of the room without blocking the doorway; the T45 was a little too wide and stuck out slightly) so I put the newer speaker in the back.... I suppose that worked out well since that's where the CS500 had to go on the ceiling and it has matching drivers to the X1T so IF there is any minor variation they should match fairly well together in that location, at least. The T45 and B15 have the same drivers in the front and my S50s have the same drivers as the fronts on the side heights. Even so, I found my old Def Tech BP-2s blend well as lower side surrounds so they must all be at least reasonably neutral (and that's without room correction EQ enabled, let alone with it).

eBay is kind of fun to watch for good deals on different models (or for parts). PSB is so neutral, they all pretty much will work together well for timbre, at least (so far anyway).

As for the parts department.... I bought the CS500 speakers brand new from an authorized Toronto based dealer in Canada that sells mail order on eBay (a VERY good deal compared to buying from a certain mail order RETAIL dealer, especially with the current US exchange rate thrown in (not quite 1/2 the price of a certain Portland based mail order place, actually). Anyway, the CS500 speakers were missing their set screws that they were supposed to ship with. I contacted PSB's help department "chat" and no one was there. They finally got back to me over a week later and offered to send them to me for free (in my choice of colors), but I already bought some brass ones from a local hardware store for a couple of bucks by then. So, basically I wouldn't count on prompt service from PSB, in any case. OTOH, they didn't ask for proof of purchase to send the parts out or anything so plus marks on policy, but low marks on getting back to me in a timely fashion (all I wanted to ask was the length of the set screws so I wouldn't buy the wrong ones; all the reviews mentioned were the diameter. I ended up having to make a second trip as I did buy the wrong length. They were only a couple of bucks, but between not packing the screws to begin with and not having anyone there to answer a very simple question, I wasn't pleased regardless). I wanted to get the speakers up and mounted and I didn't have time to wait for a reply that I didn't know would ever come.

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post #6996 of 7170 Old 09-07-2018, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by only f2.8 View Post
Does anyone know if PSB still sells tweeter for the original Image series? I need to replace the TW1-2AN/P in my 4T and 1B.

I phoned the PSB parts department twice and left 2 messages but have not heard back from them in the past 10 days.

Any other channels to find the replacement?
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I bought two off eBay a couple of years ago. I don't think I've seen any since. I bought some fabric tweeters that someone recommended as replacements (they thought they sounded better than the metal domes). I actually ended up using those on my front height B15s as they seem to have really good off-axis response and I could only aim they downward a couple of degrees. I removed the extra originals in case I blow any more (I had three blown tweeters at one point, but then I've now got 13 PSB speakers, 9 of which use those exact tweeters and two of which have two each so that's a lot of tweeters. If worst comes to worst, you can always buy some used image speakers and cannibalize them for parts.

OTOH, I've found the newer titanium tweeters (used in my rear surround and rear surround height speakers with the CS500 and X1T) sound more or less identical to my ears (I did A/B tests between the Image T45 and Imagine X1T which have the same rated response even though they're two generations apart and the midrange on the X1T are ceramic filled and the tweeters now made of titanium. I still couldn't reliably tell them apart, but the X1T could squeeze into the back corner of the room without blocking the doorway; the T45 was a little too wide and stuck out slightly) so I put the newer speaker in the back.... I suppose that worked out well since that's where the CS500 had to go on the ceiling and it has matching drivers to the X1T so IF there is any minor variation they should match fairly well together in that location, at least. The T45 and B15 have the same drivers in the front and my S50s have the same drivers as the fronts on the side heights. Even so, I found my old Def Tech BP-2s blend well as lower side surrounds so they must all be at least reasonably neutral (and that's without room correction EQ enabled, let alone with it).

eBay is kind of fun to watch for good deals on different models (or for parts). PSB is so neutral, they all pretty much will work together well for timbre, at least (so far anyway).

As for the parts department.... I bought the CS500 speakers brand new from an authorized Toronto based dealer in Canada that sells mail order on eBay (a VERY good deal compared to buying from a certain mail order RETAIL dealer, especially with the current US exchange rate thrown in (not quite 1/2 the price of a certain Portland based mail order place, actually). Anyway, the CS500 speakers were missing their set screws that they were supposed to ship with. I contacted PSB's help department "chat" and no one was there. They finally got back to me over a week later and offered to send them to me for free (in my choice of colors), but I already bought some brass ones from a local hardware store for a couple of bucks by then. So, basically I wouldn't count on prompt service from PSB, in any case. OTOH, they didn't ask for proof of purchase to send the parts out or anything so plus marks on policy, but low marks on getting back to me in a timely fashion (all I wanted to ask was the length of the set screws so I wouldn't buy the wrong ones; all the reviews mentioned were the diameter. I ended up having to make a second trip as I did buy the wrong length. They were only a couple of bucks, but between not packing the screws to begin with and not having anyone there to answer a very simple question, I wasn't pleased regardless). I wanted to get the speakers up and mounted and I didn't have time to wait for a reply that I didn't know would ever come.
I agree with magnum, when i lost the tweeter in one of my centurys i found it quickly on ebay. also found it at PE out of ohio which turned out to be cheaper for me even with duty. google the tweeter part number and see what pops up
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post #6997 of 7170 Old 09-07-2018, 12:50 PM
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I agree with magnum, when i lost the tweeter in one of my centurys i found it quickly on ebay. also found it at PE out of ohio which turned out to be cheaper for me even with duty. google the tweeter part number and see what pops up
i just found an article that says the original tweeter is discontinued by vifa/tymphany but the BC25SC06 OR 08 is a drop in replacement.
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post #6998 of 7170 Old 09-07-2018, 02:10 PM
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i just found an article that says the original tweeter is discontinued by vifa/tymphany but the BC25SC06 OR 08 is a drop in replacement.
Yes, that's the fabric dome tweeter I bought. It does not sound exactly the same, however (i.e. with pink noise). How much different in real world use, I have no idea. It's made of fabric, not metal so I'd imagine it's more than a little different. I would think the titanium tweeter they currently use would be a closer match and given how much I compared the X1T to the B15 + sub, I'd say the difference is small indeed.

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post #6999 of 7170 Old 09-08-2018, 02:25 AM
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Thank you MagnumX and pgscubadiver for sharing your thoughts.

Regarding the fabric dome tweeters, should I choose the 8 ohms or the 4 ohms? The OEM tweeter is 6 ohms.
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post #7000 of 7170 Old 09-08-2018, 04:37 AM
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Thank you MagnumX and pgscubadiver for sharing your thoughts.

Regarding the fabric dome tweeters, should I choose the 8 ohms or the 4 ohms? The OEM tweeter is 6 ohms.
8 Ohms are easier for most amplifiers to drive.

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post #7001 of 7170 Old 09-09-2018, 06:01 PM
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Hi,


First of all, let me start by saying that I do not intend to bash PSB in anyway, they are genuinely good speakers for the money. I just want to share my findings in a way that, hopefully, they can constitute some food for thought. I don't believe in a forum where there can't be different and sometimes, opposite, opinions. Otherwise, what's the point?!



So, after learning the fundamental findings from Dr. Toole's research, the next logic step for me was to try another loudspeaker company, other than Revel, with the exact same design philosophy in order to see if I could find something markedly common or clearly distinct to either sonic signatures, namely to Revel's Concerta2 M16.



And, PSB it was:



Quote:
Acoustic Research Makes the Difference Through many years of research at the National Research Council Canada (NRC), home to one of the world's most advanced acoustical laboratories, our design team at PSB Speakers has learned not only what people love to hear, but also how they hear it in a room. Critical to the Imagine X design is this research into human perception of sound using double-blind listening tests. Double-blind testing removes any listener bias to give us the most accurate test result. It allows PSB to understand what is most important to listeners and allows us to create the ideal blend of performance and price for every application. In 1974, we were the first company to use the NRC for loudspeaker development and we remain the most active user of the facility today. Our experience with the NRC, how we interpret the data and implement it into the design of our Imagine X speakers, sets us apart from other speaker manufacturers. It has allowed us to focus on our primary goal—delivering real sound for real people.



"By conducting carefully controlled blind speaker tests, then measuring all the speakers to see what sonic characteristics appealed to the listeners in the tests, we were able to figure out what matters and what doesn't." - Paul Barton, Founder and Chief Designer
After listening to the PSB Imagine Mini and Imagine XB in my small room, I can confidently say that there is a common trait to them and to the Revel Concerta2 M16 (except for the Mini's clear lack of bass output) which is, for lack of a better word, sterile sound. They all have the toe-tapping factor, they are fun, but they also are sterile sounding and more clearly so when compared to the LS50s.



The culprit here can't be their spinoramas, I'm sure all these speakers measure quite well in that department, therefore I strongly suspect of their electrical high-order crossovers instead and the way they are voiced.



KEF with their combination of 1st and 2nd - order electrical crossovers managed to acheive something really special.



I guess that PSB like Revel are so obsessed with high SPLs that they always feel the need to shut-off the diaphragms as soon as possible in the crossover region to better control them and theirs dispersion characteristics when they become stressed from higher displacements at their lower operation range or when they become more directional at their higher one.



I've always had the impression with high-order slope crossovers that the so equipped loudspeakers sound unnatural and that 2nd-order (12dB/octave) electrical crossovers are, in general terms, a better compromise. Of course that, in order for this to be possible while keeping the speaker's high SPL ability, different and better materials should be used in the transducers. (It's very interesting to see that PSB already uses carbon fiber in the midrange transducer of their Imagine XT2 model but instead of relaxing the crossovers's slope to the tweeter they opted to extend the former's operation range, increasing the crossover point from 1.8kHz - which is incredible low - to a more sensible 2.2kHz).





I'm just pointing out spinoramas alone are definitely not the answer. Sure, they play a big part but there's a missing link. Maybe some contexts can expose it better than others. Just sayin'...



When I say sterile, I mean that some cues about the instruments and voices reverberant space are lost. Sterile is not equal to accurate in this context. I'm not talking about euphonic colorations that please the ear/brain, which is the opposite to accurate timbre, nor I'm talking about timbre alone. Timbre is correct in all of them (as the spinoramas will indicate), but with PSBs and Revels there is some unnaturalness in their presentation.



If there's a way of getting as good as spinoramas can possible be using less complex crossovers, with fewer electrical components, then that can only be a good thing. And, that's possible. KEF is just an example of a manufacturer doing it.



Do their loudspeakers go as loud as PSB's or Revel's? Probably not. But, how loud is it necessary for a loudspeaker to go in a room with traditional source materials?

Last edited by NullTest; 09-09-2018 at 07:16 PM.
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post #7002 of 7170 Old 09-09-2018, 07:14 PM
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After listening to the PSB Imagine Mini and Imagine XB in my small room, I can confidently say that there is a common trait to them and to the Revel Concerta2 M16 (except for the Mini's clear lack of bass output) which is, for lack of a better word, sterile sound. They all have the toe-tapping factor, they are fun, but they also are sterile sounding and more clearly so when compared to the LS50s.
My personal opinion is that you are confusing "sterile" with "flat". PSBs are unusually flat in their frequency response, so much so that they are typically rated +/- 1.5dB instead of the far more common +/- 3dB. Moreover, it has been shown time and time again that people DO NO LIKE "flat" sound. This has been true from the early days of stereo with bass and treble knob controls. While I personally find I like flat treble, I do like my bass typically raised 4-6dB above flat from 20Hz to at least 80Hz with it slowly ramping down from there to about 200Hz. For "most" music that seems to sound one HELL of a lot better sounding. But then we're talking about recordings too when we talk about frequency response. Deep bass was no typically found in most albums even in the 1980s and CD. It started (along with dynamic range being squashed to HELL) in the early to mid 1990s and it's now out of control with iTunes "mastered" albums, but at least the compression algorithms have improved along the way so that it doesn't create other anomalies in the process like many "squash boxes" did.

I got a set of PSB X1Ts in here that have "flat" response to about 35Hz in my room and only down 3dB at 30Hz. The problem is that flat sounds bad. So they in no way added ANY bass to the system compared to using B15 monitors instead that only played flat to about 55Hz. Add in some tone control, however and suddenly they sound much better in terms of bass output. I've personally found that too much midrange or highs with not enough bass (something easy to test on my Marantz receiver in multi-channel stereo as it adds all the other speakers in which adds to the 80Hz-20kHz sounds, but does NOT turn up the subwoofer to increase bass to match. With 15 speakers in play that represents about 15dB added sound (relative to a stereo pair per channel) over a 5.1 setup! You can HEAR IT. It sounds AWFUL. You'd think someone at Marantz would have thought of this. There is a dynamic bass setting, but it's for overall levels based on stereo pairs, not 14 pairs (plus center) playing the same exact stereo track!

What I did was use the OPTION menu to set overall levels down on the surround speakers and turn up the subwoofer and then set the separate "stereo" mode controls to match the same relative levels and then saved this as a smart select button (because it stores them for "movies" too if you don't keep separate settings and you want those to be even as they are typically discrete channels). I ended up with about +8dB on the sub after the surround levels were lowered several dB and it sound FANTASTIC in both 15-channel stereo and 2-channel stereo. The problem with the sound was the lack of bass to match the mids/highs. It sounded "wrong" compared to my Carver 2-channel system (set to +6dB on the active crossover that rolls off approaching 200Hz). Almost everything sounds good to great on the Carvers so I knew something was off with the home theater, more so when I got the new Marantz + combined setup to create 9.1.6. That's a LOT of speakers moving air and if there isn't sufficient bass to match when they're all playing the same thing, it will sound weird at best.

Quote:
The culprit here can't be their spinoramas, I'm sure all these speakers measure quite well in that department, therefore I strongly suspect of their electrical high-order crossovers instead and the way they are voiced.
While I much prefer my dipole ribbon Carvers for pure stereo (they have 10" woofers that play down to 27Hz without any additional sub), that has as much to do with the ribbon dipole nature as anything as dipole sounds tend to sound like "real sounds" in a room as oppose to just "images". With the right settings now, the PSB speakers are no longer in the neighboring solar system, but more like Mars compared to Earth in distance.

In other words, I think it's the bass response. The lack of a dipole reverb definitely impacts the "realism" factor for studio mixes, but I have to say that quadraphonic recordings using Auro 3D 9.1 sound more real than the Carvers for making the room itself disappear and put me at the original recording location instead. In other words, dipole + stereo = "Tori Amos is singing in my room with me". Monopole + quadraphonic recordings of a real live space = "transport me there to the venue instead".

YMMV.
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post #7003 of 7170 Old 09-10-2018, 05:35 AM
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Yeah, I know what you mean about bass response.

That's the reason why I can understand how people would prefer the KEF LS50 Wireless over its passive counterpart. Exact same internal volume and drivers and yet the active version goes substantially lower by means of the digital EQ:

LS50 Wireless:
Quote:
(-6dB) Measured at 85dB/1m
40Hz – 47kHz (More bass extension)
43Hz – 47kHz (Standard)
46Hz – 47kHz (Less bass extension)
Depending on speaker settings

(±3dB) Measured at 85dB/1m
45Hz – 28kHz (More bass extension)
50Hz – 28kHz (Standard)
61Hz – 28kHz (Less bass extension)
Depending on speaker settings
LS50:

Quote:
47Hz - 45kHz (-6dB)

79Hz - 28kHz (±3dB)
Reproduction of frequencies down to 20Hz helps to improve reality and ambience (if that information exists in the recording, in the first place).

However, the Revel Concerta2 M16 (bigger internal volume and transducer), for instance, clearly has more bass output than the LS50, not boomy but articulate bass, and yet I kept going back to the LS50s for their clarity and naturalness; how different sound sources were more spread apart in their own reverberant accoustic space. It isn't about the bass response.

I think the LS50s, although not totally flat (probably not as flat as PSBs), still have a reasonable flat frequency response, otherwise they wouldn't sound right, the timbres wouldn't sound right.

The problem is what is sacrificed in the process of getting flat frequency responses and high SPLs ability at all cost.

Something important is lost with high-order crossovers loudspeakers.

Last edited by NullTest; 09-10-2018 at 08:05 AM.
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post #7004 of 7170 Old 09-10-2018, 08:29 AM
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well i received my psb imagine xa's on friday. tried setting them up and it seems my binding posts are defective. they won't accept any banana connectors, as in they won't push in at all and simply fall out. i was going crazy all weekend trying to figure out why this was happening when i realized that 3 of the 4 posts don't have depth holes drilled to accept bananas. they're smooth and look like they only want to take bare wire (or spades). one of the posts does have a hole drilled and the connector sits fine (but still not flush). it's damned bizarre. as this is my first psb, i'm wondering if this is a design of this brand and they don't want you using banana connectors? i have an email to psb to see what they say, but in the meantime i'm using bare wire. on the plus side, they sound very good.

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post #7005 of 7170 Old 09-10-2018, 08:46 AM
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well i received my psb imagine xa's on friday. tried setting them up and it seems my binding posts are defective. they won't accept any banana connectors, as in they won't push in at all and simply fall out. i was going crazy all weekend trying to figure out why this was happening when i realized that 3 of the 4 posts don't have depth holes drilled to accept bananas. they're smooth and look like they only want to take bare wire (or spades). one of the posts does have a hole drilled and the connector sits fine (but still not flush). it's damned bizarre. as this is my first psb, i'm wondering if this is a design of this brand and they don't want you using banana connectors? i have an email to psb to see what they say, but in the meantime i'm using bare wire. on the plus side, they sound very good.
All PSB speakers come with "plugs" inserted into the binding posts. You have to pull them out before you can use banana plugs. I forgot to do this ahead of time with my CS500 speakers on the ceiling and it was a PITA to get them out without taking the speakers down again. Usually they are rubber plugs (just squeeze with your fingertips or nails and pull out), but these in the CS500 were hard plastic plugs and harder to get a grip on. I had to use my fingernails to pry them out.

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post #7006 of 7170 Old 09-10-2018, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
All PSB speakers come with "plugs" inserted into the binding posts. You have to pull them out before you can use banana plugs. I forgot to do this ahead of time with my CS500 speakers on the ceiling and it was a PITA to get them out without taking the speakers down again. Usually they are rubber plugs (just squeeze with your fingertips or nails and pull out), but these in the CS500 were hard plastic plugs and harder to get a grip on. I had to use my fingernails to pry them out.
yep i removed those. you're talking about the black and red plastic caps, right? after removing those, if you unscrew and remove the binding post cap, you're left with a post with a smooth perpendicular hole for bare wire. there's no depth whatsoever, so if you try inserting a banana clip, the tip stops at the bottom of the bare wire hole. should travel below that, no? on the one post there's a drilled hole below the bare wire area that allows the tip of the banana clip to "catch". the other 3 posts have no such depth and when you screw the binding post cap back and try to insert the banana connector, it only makes it 1/5 or so of the way and falls out as it's not able to go deep enough to catch anything

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post #7007 of 7170 Old 09-10-2018, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by talbain View Post
yep i removed those. you're talking about the black and red plastic caps, right? after removing those, if you unscrew and remove the binding post cap, you're left with a post with a smooth perpendicular hole for bare wire. there's no depth whatsoever, so if you try inserting a banana clip, the tip stops at the bottom of the bare wire hole. should travel below that, no? on the one post there's a drilled hole below the bare wire area that allows the tip of the banana clip to "catch". the other 3 posts have no such depth and when you screw the binding post cap back and try to insert the banana connector, it only makes it 1/5 or so of the way and falls out as it's not able to go deep enough to catch anything
My KEF speakers (and any that could ship to within the EU) have those EU-required plugs.

On my speakers I had to remove the "cover cap" to extract the plastic plugs, then screw the cap back on. The hole in my speakers does extend well below the large cross-hole for bare wire connections, so banana plugs do go in all the way. I do use Blue Jeans Cable "Locking Banana Plugs", so even a short engage length would be secure.

Perhaps using that type of banana plug from BJC, GLS or other make would work for the short depth 4mm hole on PSB speakers. My cousin has PSB Imagine T, Imagine C, and Imagine S, and the cables I made for him with the BJC locking plugs all go in fully. Which model PSB speakers have the shallow hole?

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post #7008 of 7170 Old 09-10-2018, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talbain View Post
yep i removed those. you're talking about the black and red plastic caps, right? after removing those, if you unscrew and remove the binding post cap, you're left with a post with a smooth perpendicular hole for bare wire. there's no depth whatsoever, so if you try inserting a banana clip, the tip stops at the bottom of the bare wire hole. should travel below that, no? on the one post there's a drilled hole below the bare wire area that allows the tip of the banana clip to "catch". the other 3 posts have no such depth and when you screw the binding post cap back and try to insert the banana connector, it only makes it 1/5 or so of the way and falls out as it's not able to go deep enough to catch anything
I'm still not sure what part you're referring to. Maybe a photo would help? There's the "screw on" red/black caps that you unscrew if you're going to use bare wire or spades. They should be screwed all the way in to use banana connectors. The banana connector inserts into the cylinder from the top of the red/black screws. The "holes" on the side of the cylinders that these caps screw onto are for bare wire (i.e. you unscrew the cap maybe 2/3 the way off; insert bare wire into perpendicular hole and screw down the cap so it tightens onto it. For banana connectors, you screw the cap all the way on and insert the banana plug into the hole at the top of the cylinder. It has to have "depth" or the cap couldn't screw onto the post (i.e. it's the entire length of that cap to just below where the wire hole is). What I was saying before is that PSB speakers typically have that top hole where the banana plugs go "plugged" with a rubber or plastic cap that pulls straight out of it. In other words, once that's removed, you have TWO holes (one for bare wire on the side of the metal cylinder that the red/black caps screw onto and one for banana plugs at the top of the caps).

I've found that most banana plugs do not insert to a depth that makes the entire connector disappear. It only needs to go in so far that the middle/wide section clicks into place and holds it. I've had to push pretty hard on some speakers to get the banana plug to go in, but with 13 PSB speakers here (2 X1T,2 CS500,1 T45,4 B15,2 S50 models) I haven't run into one yet that wouldn't accept a banana plug. Now the Xa is that bounce/ceiling Atmos speaker, yes? I suppose it's possible it doesn't take banana connectors or there's a defect. Again, a picture might be helpful. Basically, if it's falling out, it's not inserted all the way. It shouldn't need a hole below the side hole for the bare wire, though. The length of the binding post itself is typically where the banana plug is inserted (i.e. into the top of the post after it's screwed down all the way).

Again, I'm sure you've dealt with these before and there probably is something wrong, but I'll attach some examples to illustrate the parts of the post I'm talking about. The picture on the left shows the binding post. The side hole is visible on the right post and the end hole for the banana clip is shown on the left post. The middle picture shows bare wire inserted into those side holes with the caps (which are red/black on PSB) tightened down to hold the connection in place. The right picture shows the banana plugs inserted into the end hole (posts are tightened down and as you can see, the entire length of the banana plug does not insert all the way. Part of the lower shaft sits above the post). The far right picture shows a binding post with bare wire inserted that still has the banana jack "plug" still inserted. You cannot insert a banana plug into this binding post until those red/black plugs are removed. You can use bare wire with them in place.
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post #7009 of 7170 Old 09-10-2018, 09:50 AM
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i'll take pics when i get home. there's simply no way for banana plugs to fit into 3 of the 4 binding posts with the metal caps screwed tight. there's nowhere for them to go and they just sit there, loose. if i were to push them in hard, i'd bend the plugs. in my mind there's definitely something wrong, unless the psbs are this way by design. again, i'll take pics tonight since probably psb support will want them as well. the other issue is the spare monster spade connectors i have are too narrow to fit in the post. not having a great time wiring these up lol. using bare wire in the interim (which is fine, just bothers my ocd).

incidentally, does anyone know what spade connectors will fit psb, or what the binding post size is?

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post #7010 of 7170 Old 09-10-2018, 10:01 AM
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I wouldn't put it past PSB to have manufacturing issues. They did not include the set screws for my CS500 speakers and took over a week to get back to me (by then I already bought some from the hardware store). One of the reviews for the same speakers said one was missing its bass port plug, etc. I get the feeling their Chinese manufacturing plant isn't exactly up to snuff (or is the final boxing/assembly in Canada? No idea what steps are done where). I do know I don't recall reading of such issues when all their speakers were made in Canada not so long ago. I didn't exactly notice the speakers drop in price when the plant went to China either. So to me, it's they screwed the Canadian workers and they're profiting at the top for making inferior speakers in China instead of Canada. If I didn't already have so many PSB speakers to begin with (they were made in Canada in 2006 when I first built this home theater), I probably would have looked elsewhere to tell you the truth. There's no pride in companies anymore, only profits.
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post #7011 of 7170 Old 09-10-2018, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NullTest View Post
KEF with their combination of 1st and 2nd - order electrical crossovers managed to acheive something really special.

I just have to correct myself. Sorry!


Upon further investigation it turned out that the above mentioned combination of 1st and 2nd order electrical crossovers only apply to Kef Reference series, which in the case of the Reference 1 loudspeaker the freq. response is as flat as it comes. PSB style and then some!


As for the LS50s both passive and active here's what is inside, by Dr. Jack Oclee-Brown, head of acoustics at KEF:


Quote:
‘Crossover alignment is a bit different to the passive LS50, which is second-order on the tweeter and third-order on the woofer. We wouldn’t generally go higher than second-order on a tweeter these days because that involves just one series capacitor, and the quality of that capacitor is probably the most important factor for sound quality.


With DSP, of course, that problem goes away, so the crossover in the LS50W is fourth-order in the DSP. Once you include the driver roll-offs it looks a bit like a sixth-order Linkwitz-Riley overall.’
Pics of the LS50s passive crossover:


Woofer





Tweeter







So, the way I see it, either one goes active with high-order digital crossovers or should a passive crossover still be used then simpler crossovers are the best choice, provided that spinoramas are good enough and reasonable SPLs are attainable.

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post #7012 of 7170 Old 09-10-2018, 08:29 PM
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Now I'm curious to see how the 4th-order digital crossover of the LS50 Wireless compares to the LS50s and to the high-order crossover designs such as PSBs and Revels.


The problem is that, now, we are talking about different amplification, and that goes a long way...
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post #7013 of 7170 Old 09-11-2018, 10:53 AM
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In the pics below one can see the typically flat frequency response and even dispersion characteristics of PSB speakers, in this case of the XT2 model (Soundstage measurements) and also, for comparison purposes, the not so flat on-axis frequency response of both the LS50s (Blue trace) and LS50 Wireless (from Hi-fi News article):

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All the measurements were made via the LS50W’s analogue inputs with the crossover phase correction defeated, although I did check first that the frequency responses with and without phase correction overlaid each other – which they did. Conventional sensitivity measurement is not possible with the LS50W, of course, so the on-axis frequency responses [Graph 1, below] have been adjusted to 84dB SPL at 1kHz, which approximates the sensitivity of the passive LS50 [HFN Jul ’12]. The traces resemble those we measured from the LS50 [blue trace, Graph 1] but there are differences, particularly in the last two octaves to 20kHz where the LS50W’s response is notably smoother. Partly as a result of DSP equalisation, response errors are reduced to a creditable ±2.2dB. Pair matching over the same 250Hz-20kHz range was very good at ±0.7dB, close to the outstanding ±0.6dB we measured from the LS50 – figures which speak volumes for KEF’s quality control procedures

So, at least we know that the KEF's 4th order DSP crossover doesn't change much the frequency response of the active LS50s when compared to its passive counterpart, with the latter's combination of 2nd and 3rd-order electrical crossovers.

Despite the fact of the PSB XT2 having a flatter frequency response, I think this would be a very interesting comparison soundwise considering that the PSBs have passive high-order (4th-order) crossovers... what is gained, what is lost? Passive electrical high-order crossovers vs simpler lower-order ones; passive less complex lower-order crossovers vs digital high-order ones; passive high-order vs digital high-order crossovers...



PS: With the active speakers the signal amplification will be different, mind you!!!
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post #7014 of 7170 Old 09-11-2018, 12:36 PM
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Is this suddenly a KEF Vs. PSB thread or what? Because if it's design theories of higher vs lower order crossovers, it's still definitely in the wrong thread....

The real benefits of higher order crossovers are getting the driver out of the range it's not good in as quickly as possible. 1st (6dB/octave) and 2nd order (better, but still low 12dB/octave) are not very effective in that regard. Let's say your tweeter in a two way design is crossed at 2kHz at 90dB using a 1st order crossover is still playing at 72dB output levels at 250Hz!!! No one in their right mind wants a tweeter playing at 250Hz anywhere near that level! It's not a bass driver for god's sake and shouldn't even see a signal in that range. This is why 1st order crossovers are like big foot. You've heard of them, but you've probably never see them in the real world. A 2nd order crossover is much more reasonable, but still tricky to implement smoothly. The downsides to using traditional passive higher order crossovers (which get out of the way of the driver beneath it much faster) are totally screwed up phase response near the crossover region. This probably doesn't matter much at 10kHz. It might matter a lot more at 200Hz.

Digital crossovers get around a lot of the phase problems, but traditionally aren't popular due to the need to insert the crossover before the main amplifier (most pre 2000 preamps and receivers could easily do this via tape loop; most current ones cannot). Ironically, it's now that the digital ones are coming into their own and yet there's so little market for them due to the need for specific pre-amp/amp combos to make them work. Also, in years past "digital" was a dirty word in high-end analog obsessed "audiophile land". Now that they've been totally fooled by nonsensical bullcrap like 24/192 (since your typical audiophile to this very day still thinks digital works by "stair-steps" which was NEVER true). So much audio gear has been snake-oil/BS over the years, it's hard for the typical clueless consumer to sort through the mess. But then your typical consumer is happy with Apple ear-buds, so WTF is the difference, really?

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post #7015 of 7170 Old 09-13-2018, 06:28 PM
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alright i took pics of the issue, but the following video is the best illustration of the problem. there's not enough depth to the binding post for the banana clip to hold onto. towards the end you see i try to force the clip in as far as possible and it just pops out. completely unusable, and i've tried 5 different brands of connectors


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post #7016 of 7170 Old 09-13-2018, 06:35 PM
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well the kicker is that i ordered replacement speakers and they have the exact same problem. i noticed the serial numbers of the new units were 15 higher than the old ones, so it could be a batch issue. anyway, trying to figure out a solution here. stay tuned

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post #7017 of 7170 Old 09-13-2018, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talbain View Post
well the kicker is that i ordered replacement speakers and they have the exact same problem. i noticed the serial numbers of the new units were 15 higher than the old ones, so it could be a batch issue. anyway, trying to figure out a solution here. stay tuned
I'd be contacting PSB to share that video and the photos with them. It's just not right!

If they deny a fix on their dime, I'd be asking to escalate to a supervisor. Failing that, I'm a machinist so I'd just get a 5/32" drill and solve it.
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post #7018 of 7170 Old 09-13-2018, 07:55 PM
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I just looked at a pair of my own B15 PSB speakers to compare to the video. I can make a few comments.

1> My connectors aren't any deeper than that. The bottom part sits the same distance away. I have no reason to suspect they aren't "deep enough" or whatever based on what I'm seeing. They look normal depth from here. Looking down into them here, they appear to have two metal vertical points the tip can rest against if it makes it that far (banana plugs vary in length; I use the shorter "strike" ones and they still stick out somewhat at the end).

2> My banana plugs do not look like that. They have the deformed part in the middle, not the end. I'll attach a picture of mine so you can compare to your own banana plug which looks a bit different. You might try a different brand. Banana plugs are known to be finicky and I don't think there's any set standard. They come in different lengths and designs. Perhaps yours simply doesn't like PSB? I use "Strike" plugs by Sewell (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

3>My banana plugs do not appear to insert all the way to the bottom. They lock in above that point. I think they insert a bit further on my receiver than the speakers, really. I did have trouble getting a few plugs in the first time. I had to REALLY push hard. Once deformed a bit, they went in easily (the plug that is, not the connector).

4> As near as I can tell from the video example, at least, you don't seem to be remotely inserting the banana plug far enough (you're nowhere near the bottom of that post). I assume that's why it never locks in. Even when "locked" in, they ultimately aren't "tight" connections (i.e. they unplug easily). If you want "tight" I suggest you use bare wire or a spade lug. Banana plugs are for convenience of quick connect/disconnect. They are not the best electrical connection if you want a secure solid electrical connection. A soldered spade lug is probably best. Bare wire is fine as long as it's secured tightly and no bits stick out to touch another terminal (I had to use bare wire for a speaker selector box I'm using as that's the only thing it takes). I'm using lightning quick connect banana plugs which aren't the best electrical connection internally compared to soldering, etc., but I haven't had an issue with a speaker not working yet.

Now I'm not saying you CAN insert the banana plugs further (I'm not there to try it myself; I can only go by what I see). There may very well be an issue there, but it could be your banana plug as easily as it is the speaker. Have you tried another brand banana plug?

At least from the video, it doesn't look like you pushed very hard on the plug to insert it. It took some real force to get a couple of my connectors to insert (some went easier than others; I assume manufacturing tolerances and that was from the same batch/brand of plugs). Once inserted once, they went in easily thereafter. They are not wobbly like you show, but they are not "super solid" either. They're still basically only as tight as that middle section holds against the cylinder.

I'm not an expert on banana plugs, so if you don't like my assessment, ignore it. I just kind of doubt the speaker terminals are defective across multiple speakers. They look perfectly fine in the video. My plugs don't insert all the way to the bottom before clicking into place, so the idea you need to drill deeper sounds absurd to me. They only insert about halfway past the middle section (see previous photos above). I think they insert deeper on my receiver than the PSB speakers on average, but not by much.
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post #7019 of 7170 Old 09-13-2018, 09:30 PM
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nah mate there's a serious problem. i know my way around banana clips and believe me i used enough force to try to get them in there that i thought the mdf was going to give way. in the video are monoprice connectors, but monster, mediabridge and a couple of other brands i don't recall had the same result.

the good news is that i took the 5/32 advice and drilled 3 dimples for added depth. the 4th post already had one predrilled and worked fine out of the box (another sign of a problem).

everything working great now. the only concern at this point is that i was planning on moving to an all-psb platform (imagine x2t + imagine c) and i kind of don't want to be drilling holes in the binding posts of my new purchases

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post #7020 of 7170 Old 09-14-2018, 03:52 AM
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Glad that worked out for you! Yeah, I wouldn't be keen on modifying brand new speakers either. The manufacturer should simply acknowledge a manufacturing defect/quality control issue and make things right.

Come to think of it, one pair of my cousin's PSB Imagine series speakers did have that too. We got around it by using the Blue Jeans Cable locking banana plugs because they expand at their tip as you snug them up. I use those on almost all the cables I make.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.

Last edited by KenM10759; 09-14-2018 at 03:59 AM.
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