Klipsch owner thread - Page 1815 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #54421 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 08:52 AM
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For future proofing, I chose one that has 16 AES digital output channels, then used a Xilica XD-4080 speaker processor (has a DSP and 8 DAC output channels) that can accept multiple AES inputs. This lets you change the DAC out or try different devices like a speaker processor, plus it gives outboard flexibility for time aligning speakers, try or bi-amping, etc... Additionally, you can just add more Xilica XD-4080 processors later if you want more output channels. I'm using 5 outputs for my subs, and 15 to tri-amp my 5 speakers, this required 3 Xilica XD-4080.

That said if you buy a used PCI-e used RME card off ebay I don't think you can go wrong. They are made in Germany, and their ASIO implementation is top notch. My card is the RME HDSPe AES-32 - AES/EBU PCIe Express Card. Retail is $1200, but they come up on ebay all the time for under $600. Any of the RME cards are going to be great, and some come with analog daughter cards.

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Hi. Any recommendation for pro-audio PC soundcard with good SNR? I would like to venture into this as well, upgrading my PC audio.

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post #54422 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 09:39 AM
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It is certainly all about what you want out of your system. If you don't want the best possible fidelity (i.e. recreate what is recorded faithfully) or want to only spend $500 on your signal chain, it is wishful thinking to believe that a properly setup pro audio signal chain will not sound many times better (even with the same speakers in the same room), especially if you are willing to bi or tri-amp and run multiple subs.

Even with a $3-5k AVP and consumer amps you will not have the clarity or detail of a system like mine. This is based on real measurements and far from just my opinion. It doesn't get more objective than actual measurements at the main listening position. These were taken at my main listening position in my room. One should believe in science, engineering, or objective measurements.

I take measurements anytime I change something in my setup as I want an objective metric and to understand why I hear the differences I do. There is so much BS in the world of audio, and honestly it is much wiser to learn about the science (and even engineering limitations first of various equipment), before dropping thousands on a setup that will not sound as good and quickly become outdated. I learned this the hard way myself.






You immediately hear the clarity and realism of a setup like mine, no matter what the volume level. Even for low frequencies, my setup is below .25% THD which is unheard of. For THD, getting below .1% at the MLP is incredible. These are actual in room measurements too and not some snake oil charts that are my opinion.

Unfortunately, there is no accurate source for people to learn from, it takes a technical background and lots of knowledge and effort to setup a system like mine, and no home theater installer I have ever met are knowledgeable at creating world class systems that a middle class person can afford. And although folks here mean well, few have the time to learn what is required for ultimate fidelity and just perpetuate audio myths as if they were fact. Some of it is true, some of it isn't.

Take the time to read and understand technical aspects discussed at these sites:
http://sound.whsites.net/articles.htm
and
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes

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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
Very well written opinion piece and there are a lot of discussions on this forum and in this thread on this topic. That said, you definitely have nice gear and I won't debate what you hear verses what others do and what is considered "acceptable," "fantastic," or "sound world class" because that is also subjective regardless what charts you post.

Btw, it's not my intention to dissuade anyone from going down the path you suggest if you have the extra money or desire.
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post #54423 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
... I want an objective metric and to understand why I hear the differences I do. There is so much BS in the world of audio, and honestly it is much wiser to learn about the science (and even engineering limitations first of various equipment), before dropping thousands on a setup that will not sound as good and quickly become outdated. I learned this the hard way myself.

...Unfortunately, there is no accurate source for people to learn from, it takes a technical background and lots of knowledge and effort to setup a system like mine, and no home theater installer I have ever met are knowledgeable at creating world class systems that a middle class person can afford. And although folks here mean well, few have the time to learn what is required for ultimate fidelity and just perpetuate audio myths as if they were fact. Some of it is true, some of it isn't.
I totally agree with what you write above and the reason I came to this forum in the first place. I highly recommend those that want to learn about what you are talking about venture out of this thread and check out the Audio Theory, Setup and chat Forum here on AVS as well as some of the links you mention. There are a lot of ways to approach this subject. I suggest most people start with looking at an actual budget because it is real easy to over-spend.

I also think one should consider what they are also trying to accomplish. As much as I like technical discussions one of the things I found disconcerting is that folks are willing to take opinions on the internet on what to buy, but won't go to the trouble of actually measuring how loud they listen to their favorite, familiar material...
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post #54424 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 02:11 PM
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Have a quick question for those who have Klipsch for there home theater. I have a 7.2.4 Atmos system and have the RP-280F as my front left and rear.
Should I "toe" the front and left speakers towards the center of the home theater i.e the main listening point?

Also, I have the RP-250S for my surround sides. The manually says to put 2 feet above the listening position. So, is this from the top of the speaker to the floor distance, or from the bottom of the speaker to the floor distance? My listening is 45" so with an added 24" I would be at 69". I plan on putting then directly to the left and right side of the main seating position, front row.

I have my front speakers in a stage behind a AT Screen, so I plan on building a stand for my center channel. Do I match the level of the tweeters from my left and right speakers to the center channel? Or do I just put the center channel tweeter at the main listening height of 45"?

Thanks for the advice!

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post #54425 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 02:25 PM
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I just watched the first Hunger Games BD on my RC-64 II and RF-7 II and wow. That audio mix is really well done. Lot's of hard to pinpoint sound all around you. I had to turn it up a bit during the scene where the pretty music starts playing when Kat and Peta are first driven to the train so I could just feel that soundtrack. Wonderful.

Upstairs - Sony 75x940e: soundbar - Klipsch R-20B
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post #54426 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
If you are running 100 watts through them and double the power, that should add 3dB of volume, assuming no thermal compression.

https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...oubling-Output
That doesn't sound like a huge improvement. Not worth $1000 at least. Thanks for that. I think I'll focus on a projector as my next investment.

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post #54427 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bstone261 View Post
Have a quick question for those who have Klipsch for there home theater. I have a 7.2.4 Atmos system and have the RP-280F as my front left and rear.
Should I "toe" the front and left speakers towards the center of the home theater i.e the main listening point?

Also, I have the RP-250S for my surround sides. The manually says to put 2 feet above the listening position. So, is this from the top of the speaker to the floor distance, or from the bottom of the speaker to the floor distance? My listening is 45" so with an added 24" I would be at 69". I plan on putting then directly to the left and right side of the main seating position, front row.

I have my front speakers in a stage behind a AT Screen, so I plan on building a stand for my center channel. Do I match the level of the tweeters from my left and right speakers to the center channel? Or do I just put the center channel tweeter at the main listening height of 45"?

Thanks for the advice!
1. I have mine toed in, and they sound great that way, don't know what Klipsch's official recommendation is.
2. Probably the bottom, but I doubt you need to be precisely exact. If you can, you are supposed to have them slightly behind the MLP.
3. If you can match the tweeter level up front, that is best. As a matter of fact, if you've got the room, get another RP-280f, and don't build a stand, you won't need one.
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post #54428 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
1. I have mine toed in, and they sound great that way, don't know what Klipsch's official recommendation is.
2. Probably the bottom, but I doubt you need to be precisely exact. If you can, you are supposed to have them slightly behind the MLP.
3. If you can match the tweeter level up front, that is best. As a matter of fact, if you've got the room, get another RP-280f, and don't build a stand, you won't need one.
Great Thanks!

1. I will toe mine in
2. I have the ability to move them slightly behind the MLP
3. I was thinking about getting another RP-280f instead of the center channel.

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post #54429 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bstone261 View Post
Great Thanks!

1. I will toe mine in
2. I have the ability to move them slightly behind the MLP
3. I was thinking about getting another RP-280f instead of the center channel.
http://www.klipsch.com/blog/how-to-set-up-a-7-1-system try to make a equalaterial triangle so you are looking down the throat of the mid horn. YMMV

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post #54430 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post
http://www.klipsch.com/blog/how-to-set-up-a-7-1-system try to make a equalaterial triangle so you are looking down the throat of the mid horn. YMMV
Thxs!

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post #54431 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teremei View Post
That doesn't sound like a huge improvement. Not worth $1000 at least. Thanks for that. I think I'll focus on a projector as my next investment.
Yes, double power yields modest gains in SPL. I also wonder whether or how often you are actually feeding your speakers 100 watts. Feeding 100 watts to sensitive tower speakers would make them pretty plays pretty loud.
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post #54432 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Yes, double power yields modest gains in SPL. I also wonder whether or how often you are actually feeding your speakers 100 watts. Feeding 100 watts to sensitive tower speakers would make them pretty plays pretty loud.
Fwiw, when it comes to the RF-7s it's not about the Watts per channel as much as providing enough current at the volume you want to listen without them distorting...Iow, they may be 101 dB @2.83 volts/1 meter but they actually dip below 4 Ohms in a couple of frequencies above where you would cross over to a sub which makes them harder to drive than their sensitivity numbers suggest. If you search this thread there is an actual link somewhere to a Frequency Response Chart for the RF-7IIs that was supplied in another thread here on AVS.
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post #54433 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
Fwiw, when it comes to the RF-7s it's not about the Watts per channel as much as providing enough current at the volume you want to listen without them distorting...Iow, they may be 101 dB @2.83 volts/1 meter but they actually dip below 4 Ohms in a couple of frequencies above where you would cross over to a sub which makes them harder to drive than their sensitivity numbers suggest. If you search this thread there is an actual link somewhere to a Frequency Response Chart for the RF-7IIs that was supplied in another thread here on AVS.
The RF7 II, and III, do not have as low of an impedance dip as the original 7. It is no different than plenty of other speakers on the market. It shouldn't even be a concern with modern SS amps. If you are using an amplifier with output transformers, or filters, then it might be of some concern for frequency response.

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post #54434 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by itsmyforte View Post
The RF7 II, and III, do not have as low of an impedance dip as the original 7...
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
Thank you for confirming that information because I have heard that as well but could never find the actual chart. Fwiw, here is the thread I was talking about in regard to the RF-7IIs: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...surements.html
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post #54435 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 08:08 PM
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Hey guys I got a question on separate amp for my LCR (28F & 450C). I’m primarily running 5.1 setup in my living room with capability to run a 5.1.2 atoms if I need to. Right now I have the x3300 pushing everything but I’m looking for a amp to at least do the front stage. I’m looking at the XPA-3 since I have a XPA-5 in my theater room and I’m please with the product. Would that 275 wpc be overkill for the 28s & 450 or should I look at something else like an outlaw 5000? Thanks

Living Room Vizio M70-E3, Denon AVR-X3300w 5.2.2 ATMOS, Plex, PS4, 2x Klipsch 28F, Klipsch RP-450c, Klipsch 4x CDT-5800-C II, 2x Klipsch R-112sw
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post #54436 of 58204 Old 12-29-2017, 08:49 PM
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Hey guys I got a question on separate amp for my LCR (28F & 450C). I’m primarily running 5.1 setup in my living room with capability to run a 5.1.2 atoms if I need to. Right now I have the x3300 pushing everything but I’m looking for a amp to at least do the front stage. I’m looking at the XPA-3 since I have a XPA-5 in my theater room and I’m please with the product. Would that 275 wpc be overkill for the 28s & 450 or should I look at something else like an outlaw 5000? Thanks
It really depends on how loud you listen to material....It's like trying to differentiate if you need a reliable vehicle to hit the speed limits to get you to the grocery store verses the need to have a Formula One performing car to get you there....Imo, if you need a separate amp to drive 2 additional channels then it has to be a consideration, but if you can purchase an AVR to accomplish the same mission that would be the way I would go.
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post #54437 of 58204 Old 12-30-2017, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Yes, double power yields modest gains in SPL. I also wonder whether or how often you are actually feeding your speakers 100 watts. Feeding 100 watts to sensitive tower speakers would make them pretty plays pretty loud.
Well Denon says 105w per channel but who knows. I do know that if I pump them up to +3.0 I get some mega noise. I've done that for a few of my favorite scenes.

Upstairs - Sony 75x940e: soundbar - Klipsch R-20B
Basement - BenQ HT3050: screen - Elite 125" motorized ATS: speakers - RF-7IIx2, RC-64II, RS-41IIx2, RS-42IIx2, AVR Denon x4000 -- subs PC-12NSD + RW12D
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
It really depends on how loud you listen to material....It's like trying to differentiate if you need a reliable vehicle to hit the speed limits to get you to the grocery store verses the need to have a Formula One performing car to get you there....Imo, if you need a separate amp to drive 2 additional channels then it has to be a consideration, but if you can purchase an AVR to accomplish the same mission that would be the way I would go.
Thanks for the info. I have a receiver already (denon x3300) and it’s seems to be lacking to push 5 - 7 speakers at any given time. I’ve recalibrated the AVR a couple of times using different settings and it’s just not enough unless I turn the volume up quite a bit to compensate. What I was thinking was reducing the load off the AVR by removing the front stage to a external amp and prolonging the AVR a bit. So I guess I’m pretty set on a external amp but dunno if the emotiva or something else is what I need to get the job done.

Living Room Vizio M70-E3, Denon AVR-X3300w 5.2.2 ATMOS, Plex, PS4, 2x Klipsch 28F, Klipsch RP-450c, Klipsch 4x CDT-5800-C II, 2x Klipsch R-112sw
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post #54439 of 58204 Old 12-30-2017, 07:18 AM
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Well Denon says 105w per channel but who knows. I do know that if I pump them up to +3.0 I get some mega noise. I've done that for a few of my favorite scenes.
Is that after Audyssey calibration?
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post #54440 of 58204 Old 12-30-2017, 07:23 AM
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Thanks for the info. I have a receiver already (denon x3300) and it’s seems to be lacking to push 5 - 7 speakers at any given time. I’ve recalibrated the AVR a couple of times using different settings and it’s just not enough unless I turn the volume up quite a bit to compensate. What I was thinking was reducing the load off the AVR by removing the front stage to a external amp and prolonging the AVR a bit. So I guess I’m pretty set on a external amp but dunno if the emotiva or something else is what I need to get the job done.
Just as a thought, make sure you have "Dynamic Volume" set to off. Fwiw, that setting seemed to zap the sound out of my speaker system. That said, if you have done the Audyssey calibration I would be curious what number on the Main Volume afterward you consider "too loud" or start to hear distortion?
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post #54441 of 58204 Old 12-30-2017, 07:28 AM
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Is that after Audyssey calibration?
after. when I say mega noise I mean that in a good way. I turn it up to +3.0 and it sounds amazing.
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[QUOTE=deemac76;55402922]Thanks for the info. I have a receiver already (denon x3300) and it’s seems to be lacking to push 5 - 7 speakers at any given time. I’ve recalibrated the AVR a couple of times using different settings and it’s just not enough unless I turn the volume up quite a bit to compensate. [QUOTE]

Does it get loud enough if you keep turning up the dial; or is it out of headroom and clipping? If it is loud enough by turning up the dial and its not clipping, then you might not be used to how the AVR volume dial scales SPL.

If you are out of headroom and clipping, Monoprice Monolith is a good option to add some reasonably priced power to your system. They are OEM'd by ATI (Morris Kelser's company) and are big heavy high-current class A/B boat anchors. It comes in 2 to 7 channels.

https://www.monoprice.com/pages/monolith

A spendier class D option is an ATI amp with N-Core modules:

http://www.ati-amp.com/AT52XNC.php


The other way to add system power is through subwoofers and crossover points. Adding big subs and moving the crossover point to 80Hz or more (if you are not there already) will also add headroom.

Last edited by jjackkrash; 12-30-2017 at 07:32 AM.
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post #54443 of 58204 Old 12-30-2017, 07:34 AM
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Does it get loud enough if you keep turning up the dial; or is it out of headroom and clipping? If it is loud enough by turning up the dial and its not clipping, then I you might not be used to how the AVR scales SPL.

...The other way to add system power is through subwoofers and crossover points. Adding big subs and moving the crossover point to 80Hz or more (if you are not there already) will also add headroom.
These are two good points. My question was going towards the first sentiment and the second would be the next thing to consider...Btw, I am not trying to talk anyone outta buying an amp, just trying to get to the crux if you would benefit from one.
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post #54444 of 58204 Old 12-30-2017, 07:36 AM
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after. when I say mega noise I mean that in a good way. I turn it up to +3.0 and it sounds amazing.
Cool. Gotta admit, if I turned my HT up to that level it would definitely do some hearing damage.

{Note: only one thing I've had to turn up that loud and it was the Talking Heads DVD "Stop Making Sense." It seemed to be mixed at a different level than the rest of our Concert DVDs and Blu rays.}
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post #54445 of 58204 Old 12-30-2017, 07:48 AM
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Would that 275 wpc be overkill for the 28s & 450 or should I look at something else like an outlaw 5000? Thanks
Based in its specs, I don't think an Outlaw 5000 would add all that much headroom over the power supply in a decent AVR.
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post #54446 of 58204 Old 12-30-2017, 07:54 AM
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Just as a thought, make sure you have "Dynamic Volume" set to off. Fwiw, that setting seemed to zap the sound out of my speaker system. That said, if you have done the Audyssey calibration I would be curious what number on the Main Volume afterward you consider "too loud" or start to hear distortion?
I'll check on that Zen and I'll set through a intense scene and crank it up to see where the volume number is and see what I got.

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post #54447 of 58204 Old 12-30-2017, 08:02 AM
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Based in its specs, I don't think an Outlaw 5000 would add all that much headroom over the power supply in a decent AVR.
I guess I'm basing my need for a external is due to my prior experience from my theater room setup. I had a Denon x4000 paired with Polk Ati9 Fronts and A6 Center and it was ok after the calibrations. After I paired the front stage with the Emotiva xpa-5 it was a whole different viewing experience and it seemed to come alive. My living room is 15x21x10 and viewing is about 14' and also open to the kitchen so dialogue from the front is critical for me.
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I guess I'm basing my need for a external is due to my prior experience from my theater room setup. I had a Denon x4000 paired with Polk Ati9 Fronts and A6 Center and it was ok after the calibrations. After I paired the front stage with the Emotiva xpa-5 it was a whole different viewing experience and it seemed to come alive. My living room is 15x21x10 and viewing is about 14' and also open to the kitchen so dialogue from the front is critical for me.
Fwiw, your Klipsch R-28F Sensitivity rating is 98 dB/2.83 volts/1 meter, while the Polk Ati9s are rated at 90 dB @ 1watt/1 meter (as per their website info) which makes the former considerably easier to drive.
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post #54449 of 58204 Old 12-30-2017, 09:42 AM
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I guess I'm basing my need for a external is due to my prior experience from my theater room setup. I had a Denon x4000 paired with Polk Ati9 Fronts and A6 Center and it was ok after the calibrations. After I paired the front stage with the Emotiva xpa-5 it was a whole different viewing experience and it seemed to come alive. My living room is 15x21x10 and viewing is about 14' and also open to the kitchen so dialogue from the front is critical for me.
I was not trying to discourage an external-amp purchase, only noting that if you need more power and are going to add power you might as well add a stack of power and not make merely a lateral move.
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Fwiw, your Klipsch R-28F Sensitivity rating is 98 dB/2.83 volts/1 meter, while the Polk Ati9s are rated at 90 dB @ 1watt/1 meter (as per their website info) which makes the former considerably easier to drive.
Gotcha Zen that makes sense. Decisions. Ughhhhhh. I don't want to waste money on something that will not make a difference. I'll have to assume that with a external it'll be louder at lower volume number but will it be clearer than the Denon.

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