Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 1402 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #42031 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
REL is the way to go. Their own high level connection specifically.
That's how I go. I have a stereo pair and connect each ones high-level input to a speaker's terminals. I don't have variable preamp outputs anyway, so it's my only choice.

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post #42032 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 01:23 PM
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Happy 2019 'philes.

I'll be looking, to take a break...until my C658 comes in. At which time...I'll comment, on it paired with X14As.

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post #42033 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Spurrier Sucks View Post
I have tried my SVS sub but like above I found it slow and sloppy with music.
What SVS have you tried?
SB16-Ultra and SB-4000 are far from "slow and sloppy".
SB12-nsd is very cheap and basic subwoofer. It's still quite ok for its price.

Unfortunately, most people do not know how to tune the system with subwoofer. Sad but true.
The most common mistake is not using high-pass filter for stereo speakers.

It's very hard (I would say impossible) to properly integrate subwoofer without manual or automatic room eq - parametric eq, phase, delay, gain, crossover (both frequency and slope)...
Of course, measurements (REW, XTZ Room Analyzer...) are mandatory.
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post #42034 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Spurrier Sucks View Post
I have tried my SVS sub but like above I found it slow and sloppy with music.
What SVS have you tried?
SB16-Ultra and SB-4000 are far from "slow and sloppy".
SB12-nsd is very cheap and basic subwoofer. It's still quite ok for its price.

Unfortunately, most people do not know how to tune the system with subwoofer. Sad but true.
The most common mistake is not using high-pass filter for stereo speakers.

It's very hard (I would say impossible) to properly integrate subwoofer without manual or automatic room eq - parametric eq, phase, delay, gain, crossover (both frequency and slope)...
Of course, measurements (REW, XTZ Room Analyzer...) are mandatory.
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post #42035 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 06:29 PM
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That's not subwoofer for Hi-Fi.
You need sealed subwoofer of higher grade. Your C20's deserve at least SB13-Ultra / SB-4000.


p.s. Better two than one

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post #42036 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Delija View Post
That's not subwoofer for Hi-Fi.
You need sealed subwoofer of higher grade. Your C20's deserve at least SB13-Ultra / SB-4000.


p.s. Better two than one [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Thus my original post about getting a REL sub. 😉 I’ve been told similar things about the SB13 not being up to it either but that was in comparison to a JL sub.
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post #42037 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija View Post
What SVS have you tried?
SB16-Ultra and SB-4000 are far from "slow and sloppy".
SB12-nsd is very cheap and basic subwoofer. It's still quite ok for its price.

Unfortunately, most people do not know how to tune the system with subwoofer. Sad but true.
The most common mistake is not using high-pass filter for stereo speakers.

It's very hard (I would say impossible) to properly integrate subwoofer without manual or automatic room eq - parametric eq, phase, delay, gain, crossover (both frequency and slope)...
Of course, measurements (REW, XTZ Room Analyzer...) are mandatory.
I haven't heard the SB16 or the 4000, but I have heard mostly all the other non-cylindrical subs (PC), as I have a dealer that has them on display down the way. They all sound boomy and not very musical at all, great for HT tho. I've setup 2 of them myself and also setup my own Hsu subs as Hsu is 30 miles away also, and Hsu is so much more musical then the SVS subs.

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post #42038 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 07:01 PM
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@callas01
Then you probably haven't heard the right SVS

I would call you to be my guest and to hear properly set dual SB16's, but unfortunately you are too far from me.



I don't say the reviews are reliable source of information, but some of them could be.
Both Stereophile and German Stereoplay are pretty respectful. As pure Hi-Fi magazines, they both put SB16-Ultra in the highest class (almost on very top!) with priority on stereo/music reproduction and literally all reviews of SB16-Ultra, both "official' and on forums are praising the speed, precision and control and I could only agree with that.
https://www.sv-sound.de/wp-content/u...ay-2017_11.pdf

SB16-Ultra in Stereophile is Class A, together with JL Audio f212v2 ($7000), JL Audio Fathom f113v2 ($4500), MartinLogan BalancedForce 212 ($3995).
https://www.stereophile.com/content/...ion-subwoofers

I'm not saying Fathom f113v2 is not better - no doubt it is. But, dual SB16-Ultra cost less than one Fathom.

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post #42039 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 08:49 PM
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I’ve only owned a few subs as I’ve had great longevity from the subs I’ve bought. The JL f112 v2 is the best I’ve owned. Not due to cost or perceived improvements but the auto calibration is the easiest and best I’ve used. Even with Dirac that I think is difficult at times to get right with my sub and in my situation.

I’ve also owned a REL B1 and B2 and a HSU. I’ve never had a better sounding sub with ease of set-up. I can not locate my sub ever during music or movies.

They get lost in the crowd due to cost and I get it but the digital auto-calibration is worth it’s weight in gold. I’m not sure how the other subs with similar abilities fair but speakers come and speakers go but the initial investment in a sub sets you for years.

The RELs were nice but a lot more work.
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post #42040 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 09:46 PM
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I Agree Rick,The JL subs are so easy to set up and just calibrate it by pushing a button on it.When I had a paradigm sub,I was constantly fiddling with settings,the JL subs are set it and forget it.There is a reason they top the list...

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post #42041 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 10:19 PM
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I quiet enjoyed my dual F112s but they are way overdue for a major update besides just a better EQ system in the V2. The new RELs sound better when you really listen to them with music.

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post #42042 of 46195 Old 01-01-2019, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurrier Sucks View Post
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Their ported subs never did sound very good with music. The SBs are better but still not the level of Rel, JL, or the Velodyne DD pluses.

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post #42043 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 06:47 AM
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Happy New Year Everyone...

I have a question to start the thread for this year. I hope Otto can answer this question.

I fully agree and understand the fact that there are countless of matters that contribute to how a speaker sound. Even a tiny change will result in different sound. And sometimes the tiny change results in a significant change in sound quality.

Given this fact, how do you design a speaker with the same characteristic over 40 years as shown on the recent review by LowBeats?

To take this further, how do you know that the new design (for example the new esotar3 or the new hexis design or even different internal cable) will result in better sound quality and, at the same time, same characteristic with the previous speakers?

How do you even know if the new design will result in better sound quality? Once again, we all believe that small difference can result in significant difference in sound quality and charcteristic. And we just do not know whether that change will be better or worse until we listen to it.

I really do not understand. You can have better design, more advanced technology, etc which, you think, will result in better sound. But the truth is you do not even know how they would sound. For me, this is like walking with closed eyes and hoping we will get where we want to go.

I am a Dynaudio fanatic and wondering how the sound, which I am so facinated with, is designed.
Happy New Year!

Interesting questions. I will take the liberty of breaking them up in two parts: How do we create a persistent sound characteristic, and how do we validate that a change is an improvement.

I think the answer to the first part is that we do not have a fixed "reference" speaker that we try to match. Our reference is not a product, our reference is the music. Since the beginning in the late 70's, the mission for Dynaudio has always been to try to avoid having a "house sound", and instead present to you what's in the source. Now, let me be the first to say that this is an impossible mission, for a variety of reasons - but nevertheless, we believe that getting as close as possible to this imaginary goal will benefit the listener. The harder it is to identify the "sound" of the speaker, relative to the "sound" of the recording, the better. We do validate against various other of our products, to make sure we are on the right path, but sounding similar to old Dynaudio products is never the goal - that is just a consequence of working towards the same universal goal as we always have.

Perfection doesn't exist, so there will always be some variations, sometimes caused by practical or economical restrictions. But we constantly try to improve, and we believe strongly in incremental updates. Think about compound interest - audio works in a similar fashion. A 5% improvement 20 times is not 100%, it is much more! That takes us to the second part of your questions, how do we validate that a change is an improvement? That is complicated, and a lot of the answer is simply experience, and a lot of patience - yes, we do have lots and lots of trial-and-error. Based on knowledge, experience and imagination, an engineer may come up with a theory on how to make an improvement. First step often is to simulate. If that looks promising, build a prototype of the part. If measurements look promising, build a prototype of a speaker - and start listening. Generally, objective measurements can tell you if something is wrong - but it can't tell you that everything is right. For that, you need ears.

One of the things I have concluded from working with our staff of engineers is that "experience" is more than simply working with something for a long time. It's also about having a good frame of reference. Listening to bad speakers for 20 years won't teach you how good sound sounds. Listening to a good speaker for 10 minutes will teach you a lot more! Simply using high quality speakers in every day life will train you to not accept flaws in poor speakers (especially if you are an audio geek from the outset, but even if you're not, you will still experience this phenomenon).

I definitely don't agree with your analogy of walking with your eyes closed. With experience and knowledge, the quality of the trial-and-error process increases greatly, and you become better at predicting the outcome. You also become better at realising where the flaws and limitations in your current design is, so you can focus on improving those - without introducing new ones.

In general, we believe that eliminating weaknesses is better than tweaking your strengths to the extreme (at least for loudspeakers). If the sound is fantastic in one area, but fails spectacularly in another, over time we believe the annoyance of the flaws will outweigh the enthusiasm for the strengths. A flaw or weakness will draw your attention to the speakers, when it should be on the music. So the answer to how you can improve while retaining the same overall character, is that "change" and "improvement" are two different things - we don't change for the sake of changing, we change if it causes an actual improvement - if you can remove a flaw, without introducing a new, different flaw, then you have improved. If you sacrifice one parameter to improve another one, very often you have just changed, not improved. For instance, for the Contour 20 the engineers were given the specific task of improving bass performance over the previous model, but not sacrifice midrange performance while doing it. Getting more bass is easy - doing it without sacrificing midrange is a lot more challenging.

The really fun part of building loudspeakers, and what makes it an art and not simply science, is that the whole concept of replicating the sound of one room inside another room, is physically impossible! It's all literally an illusion, and our job is to make that illusion as believable as possible. This means that in the end, physics (objective measurements) is not enough, the final validation is always listening. But, simulations and measurements allows us to easier, better and faster predict changes that will improve the actual sound.

I hope this is a satisfactory answer - in the end, there is no simple answer to your question, other than good engineers get better results than bad ones...

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post #42044 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 06:48 AM
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Otto...I have a follow-up:

Could you explain to me...how to master Time, Space, and Dimension?
Anytime, anywhere.
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post #42045 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post
I wonder if Otto has auditioned (in-house) C30 vs. C20+Sub3? I wonder which combo he would be pick?
Not directly, and even if I did, it would be a bit too subjective for me to give a specific recommendation about. What I can say is that I fully back the company line of recommending dual subs if you do go with a subwoofer solution.
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post #42046 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy Linkner View Post
So I decided to get rid of my 12 inch sub (SVS sb12-nsd) and pair my Confidence C1 Mk II's instead, with a pro sub so that I can go fully balanced from source to amp. Naturally I looked at Dynaudio's offerings and ended up selecting the 9.5 inch 9S. I was slightly concerned that the substantially smaller sub might struggle to provide the quantity of bass needed for my moderately sized room but I needn't have been. The 9S goes lower (22Hz) than the SVS and is much tighter and more musical making the SVS sound bloated and boomy by comparison.

I use the Dyn sub's internal crossover to divide the frequencies at 80Hz high and low pass to allow the C1's to run more efficiently.

The result of these changes in my system is, by far, the best sound I've ever had in any listening room I've ever had and I've been at this hobby for 40 yrs.

I've followed this thread for several years and never heard any discussion of the idea of pairing the C1's with a Dyanudio pro studio sub but I can, not surprisingly, vouch for the perfect compatibility of of the 9S with the C1's, at least for those who have all balanced upstream gear.

I use a pair of Dynaudio BM14S pro audio subs in my living room system. The BM14S is basically the same as the old home audio Sub 600, but with balanced inputs and a basic black ash cabinet finish. Both now discontinued. Like you, I purchased the pro model specifically for the balanced inputs, and since they are mostly hidden I didn't care about the finish.



The main speakers are Confidence C2s, which are flat to 30 Hz in my room, so I don't really need the subs for stereo music listening. But the subs are necessary for multichannel music and home theater. I find them to be fairly tight and musical at reasonable volume levels. But it's easy to push them into heavy distortion and excursion limiting when watching movies with a lot of LFE. Dynaudio subs use a lot of EQ boost to extend the frequency response surprisingly low for a small sealed box. The tradeoff is limited output.


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Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post
That's awesome.

I have been thinking about the concept of going with Contour C20 + Sub versus Contour C30 as a potential upgrade path.

Contour C30: $7500 USD retail
Contour C20 + Stand6 + Sub3: $7300 USD retail

More or less a wash? Which gives "better" performance?

Most dealers I have been to have "warned" me against adding a sub as the coherence of the speakers will be disturbed. I have always raised my eyebrows at this a little.

Any idea what the difference is between the Sub3 and Sub9S? As far as I can tell, there are the same, except the 3 uses RCA inputs/outputs and the 9S uses XLR inputs/outputs. The 3 also offers a choice of the white finish. The Sub3 is $1800 USD retail. The 9S can be found online retail for $1200.

The cabinet finish is a bit nicer on the Sub 3. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure it's just the different inputs.



I don't think you can say that the C30 is definitively better than C20 + subs, or the other way around. It really is room & placement dependent. A general rule of thumb is that a larger room will better suit the bigger speakers, and vice versa. But there will be lots of exceptions. I know that in my smaller downstairs listening room, C30s would be a no-go, they would strongly excite my worst room modes and boom. Even C20s go a bit too low unless fitted with the port plugs. I really need to stick to speakers with bass extension in the 45 Hz range or higher and use stereo subs. But in my open plan living room, I don't have much of a problem with room modes, and I strongly prefer my C2s over any stand mounted speaker I've tried.
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Even C60's benefit from good subs.

They do have really great bass, but good subs with appropriate room correction EQ bring bass to another level. And I'm not talking about more bass, but the quality of bass.
Also, both C60's and the amp work better on the rest of the frequency range because they are relieved of playing the deepest bass.

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post #42048 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 08:36 AM
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@Otto : did you read the LowBeats article? Any comments or reactions to their findings? Would you pick S25 or C20? :P

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What I find a little annoying is that this sub talk started with a glowing comment by @Andy Linkner about his addition of a Dynaudio sub. The conversation then basically turned to, "all these other brands are better." I guess the feeling in this forum is that Dynaudio subs aren't up to the competition? I am sure Dynaudio feels that their subs pair quite well with their speakers. Otherwise, why make them in the first place?
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It's not fair comparison.

9s is very small subwoofer with very limited output which can be used only for (quiet) music listening and costs almost three times more than SVS SB12-NSD.

"Subwoofer" placed on the very same shelf with other audio devices and sounds good? No one finds this a little strange?
I just hope he didn't use SVS on the same position...

BTW, without high-pass filter applied to main speakers it's very hard to properly integrate subwoofers.
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post #42051 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post
What I find a little annoying is that this sub talk started with a glowing comment by @Andy Linkner about his addition of a Dynaudio sub. The conversation then basically turned to, "all these other brands are better." I guess the feeling in this forum is that Dynaudio subs aren't up to the competition? I am sure Dynaudio feels that their subs pair quite well with their speakers. Otherwise, why make them in the first place?
Dynaudio manufactures a wide variety of speakers,for many different applications.JL audio are a subwoofer only manufacturer,along with sub crossovers.No I do not think they can compete,not really a fair fight.
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post #42052 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 11:38 AM
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Dynaudio manufactures a wide variety of speakers,for many different applications.JL audio are a subwoofer only manufacturer,along with sub crossovers.No I do not think they can compete,not really a fair fight.
Just like speakers, picking the right sub for the right room and mating them well with the speakers you have, obviously plays a important role. I have owned REL/JL/Paradigm etc.. over the years and since I built a new room, I didn't need huge ass subs for good results, plus the C2s are no slouch at producing good bass.

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post #42053 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija View Post
It's not fair comparison.

9s is very small subwoofer with very limited output which can be used only for (quiet) music listening and costs almost three times more than SVS SB12-NSD.

"Subwoofer" placed on the very same shelf with other audio devices and sounds good? No one finds this a little strange?
I just hope he didn't use SVS on the same position...

BTW, without high-pass filter applied to main speakers it's very hard to properly integrate subwoofers.
The presumptuousness contained in your post comes across as smugness. Do you have personal experience with the 9S failing to properly integrate in a home audio setting with speakers such as the C1's?

My room is 12.5' X 17.66' X 8'. I initially set up the 9S in the conventional location on the floor but was failing to integrate it sufficiently leading me to try it on the shelf you see it on in the picture. The improvement was dramatic and obvious. The lowest frequencies are now completely directionless and seamlessly integrated with the main speakers.

In my prior post I specifically mention that I'm high-pass filtering @ 80Hz to the C1's, contrary to the implication in your post.

Unless you have experience with the 9S in a situation such as my listening room with ancillary gear such as mine, your opinions don't matter.

The output of the 9S is perfect for how I use it and I listen to a fair amount of purely electronic or electro-acoustic music with plenty of infra-sonic content at dynamic levels at or near the threshold of what I can tolerate. The SVS sb12-nsd I was using would consistently overload the room and sound bloated even after multiple adjustments over the several years I owned it. The 9S has, in short order, solved all of those problems for me.

PS Audio DirectStream Memory Player>>PS Audio DirectStream DAC >>Dynaudio 9S subwoofer>>Merrill Audio Thor Mono Blocks>>Dynaudio Confidence C1 II's (w/ Brickwall Series Mode Line Conditioner)

Last edited by Andy Linkner; 01-02-2019 at 04:59 PM.
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post #42054 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post
What I find a little annoying is that this sub talk started with a glowing comment by @Andy Linkner about his addition of a Dynaudio sub. The conversation then basically turned to, "all these other brands are better." I guess the feeling in this forum is that Dynaudio subs aren't up to the competition? I am sure Dynaudio feels that their subs pair quite well with their speakers. Otherwise, why make them in the first place?
I think when you’re looking into a sub, you have to ask how low and loud do I want it to play? Dynaudio subs just aren’t going to play low and loud. Neither do REL subs. REL sounds good, quick and tight (except the T5 and T0; which bottom out faster then the Focus 160s), so if you’re trying to play low and loud you need to move to a large woofer ported sub. The only subs I’ve heard that can do both is HSU and JL; but you’ll pay big money for JL. SVS is a good HT sub and bad for music.
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post #42055 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 05:31 PM
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I wouldn't mind trying out the Sub 6 just for the fact that it does have a preset DSP for the Contours. But at $2,800 for the Sub 6, I'd probably pay a little more for the REL Carbon Limited.

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post #42056 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 05:33 PM
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Andy,I have to agree with Delija here...vibrations from the sub sitting on the same rack as your PS Audio gear can NOT be good.Not to mention,how on earth do all “the hands” stay put?

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post #42057 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 05:45 PM
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The sub 9 is only 23 pounds so I am surprised it hasn't walked itself off the shelf to it's death. Way back in the day I had a SVS SB12 and that thing would moon walk all over the place if you played it loud enough. lol
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post #42058 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Linkner View Post
In my prior post I specifically mention that I'm high-pass filtering @ 80Hz to the C1's, contrary to the implication in your post.
You do use it now as 9S has integrated high-pass filter.

Did you use it with SVS?


I'm not saying that 9S is not better than SB12-NSD (in some aspects). I'm saying that both their price class and purpose are very different.
SB13-Ultra would be better match if we talk about quality and price, but with much higher output. It also has integrated high-pass filter.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Linkner View Post
Unless you have experience with the 9S in a situation such as my listening room with ancillary gear such as mine, your opinions don't matter.
I wouldn't write my opinion if I didn't have a chance to hear 9S.

Of course I couldn't hear it in your room with your system, but I did hear it in a similar room and it was too weak for average bookshelf speakers - Focus 140. It could keep up only with quiet listening. Yes, it was fast, but on that loudness level I don't see a point of investment (for Hi-Fi system!), especially for that price.
It's very obvious why it's very limited with output - in order to play 22 Hz with its size and amp, there must be a lot of digital EQ and compression. You can't beat physics.

It's very simple - this subwoofer is not meant for usage like this.
For small near-field monitor system - it's quite fine. It's made for that.
Maybe that's the reason you like it better on the shelf.

https://www.dynaudio.com/professiona.../9s#tech-specs.
Frequency Response (±3dB): 22Hz - 175Hz
Woofer: 24cm MSP
Amplifier: 300W Class-D
Weight: 10.5kg / 23.1lb
Dimensions (W x H x D): 266 x 276 x 320mm


And yes, that's my subjective opinion.
You may like it or not




p.s. Some people here are judging all SVS subwoofers according to their very limited experience with "wrong" models for Hi-Fi usage. I don't see any point in that.
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post #42059 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
The sub 9 is only 23 pounds so I am surprised it hasn't walked itself off the shelf to it's death. Way back in the day I had a SVS SB12 and that thing would moon walk all over the place if you played it loud enough. lol
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post #42060 of 46195 Old 01-02-2019, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delija View Post

p.s. Some people here are judging all SVS subwoofers according to their very limited experience with "wrong" models for Hi-Fi usage. I don't see any point in that.
I’ve heard the SB-13 Ultra and the PB-13 ultra, SB2000, PB2000 and PB1000. I personally setup the PB2000 and SB2000, the SB was better but still not as good when finally setup as good as I could get it to be, his wife hated the positioning. I demoed the others at my local dealer the SB13 was probably the best but still boomy with music and Ratatouille. HSU is only 20-30 mins from this dealer and the VTF3 MK5 was much better for movies and music, so that’s what I bought, despite my SVS dealer saying I could make payments on the sub since it was more then I was wanting to spend. Neither of the 2000 models were impressive musically, but for HT they’d be fine if you want a little boom to the performance.

So take it for what that is.
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