Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 799 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23941 of 44476 Old 11-10-2014, 11:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
if you read audioholics and other other studies on damping factor, you will see that they say nothing above 50 (some even suggest 20) will result in an audible difference in real world use.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...esponse-page-2
There is some truth to that, but still debatable. A true 200+ at the speaker's terminals is superb. There is a reason why servo feedback circuits actually work and make an audible difference.

Even a damping factor that is too high can actually hinder the sound in some cases.

However, most class D amps actually have damping in the single digits or close to it when measured properly. Any manufacturer can measure on the board before the output filtering and get a super high reading. Then you measure at the speaker's terminals and get a reading of 10. It's all BS so they can make the spec sheet seem great.
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post #23942 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jamesblond View Post
Guys!

I have a pair of S25's, ............................................. One of them has been treated poorly, having scratches and dents in the veneer. I have plans to redo the veneer on both of them, to make them into a symmetrical stereo pair and look as new again. ..........................

Any thoughts?
I’d bug Dynudio for a pair of cabinets, I’m sure they might just have some “B” finished ones collecting dust somewhere in a corner waiting for a pair of drivers or another revival.
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post #23943 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by sqoverall View Post
Even a damping factor that is too high can actually hinder the sound in some cases.

However, most class D amps actually have damping in the single digits or close to it when measured properly. Any manufacturer can measure on the board before the output filtering and get a super high reading. Then you measure at the speaker's terminals and get a reading of 10. It's all BS so they can make the spec sheet seem great.
For such a flawed technology it sure is getting a lot of attention from the respected high end audio manufacturers. I guess jeff rowland, audio research, rogue audio, peachTree audio, PMC, REL, dynaudio, NAD, devialet, and a long list of others only care about low cost and not sound quality. Or maybe they all are ignorant of the low sound quality and many flaws of class D amplification. It's surprising that these many long time industry leaders with their 24/7 involvement in audio remain steeped in misinformation. Maybe they never listen to their own products? It's a stumper. Have any of them ever reached out to you for a consultation? If not, that's a shame.
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post #23944 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jaxwired View Post
A lot of people don't know it because It isn't true.

Most class D amps have very high damping factors which is considered a good thing. It adds control and dynamics.

For instance wyred4sound Amps have a factor of 2000. A peachTree 220 has a factor of 1000 or more. Merrill audio veritas has a factor of 2000. Anything over 500 is considered very high. Class D Amps typically greatly outperform class A and AB designs when it comes to controlling the speakers. This is why so many subwoofer manufacturers use them. Massive power and massive control.

I have to admit; no spec baffles me, like Damping Factor


I've seen amps with HUGE power numbers, and relatively low damping factors. And you'd think class-A, with its always-on current...would do well, at "controlling drivers"; yet, as has been pointed out, they typically have poor damping factors (although not always...lol).


Then there's the fact, that many/most manufactures...don't even list the spec (for example, I tried to find the DF on my ARC DS-450...to add more fuel to Jax's argument; but it's no where to be found).


For the record...I'm getting ready to do a 3-amp (and 2-speaker ) shoot-out; one each...A, A/B, and my incumbent (hybrid) "class D". ALL of good make and reputation; so I don't expect any "losers" from this match; only a proper fit.

All The Music In The World > NAD C388
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post #23945 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 07:25 AM
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CD: high damping factors values do not, by themselves say much about the quality of a system; most modern day Amps have them but still vary in quality. There is so much controversy over this and the use of feedback and DF it will make your head spin so it doesn't surprise me that some manufactures just don't list them.

A lot of tube Amplifiers have very low feedback ratios and lower damming factors, however this doesn't mean they all sound great.. Design and feedback and filter circuits influences the Amplifier output impedance, this is more so even with car stereo systems where load impedance's are lower and designers need to have better tighter controls over speaker movement for acceptable performance within a car's cabin. So I understand where SQ is coming in with his reasoning of this, in home applications in theory this would be good as well but you don't have the restrictions of a car's cabin to factor in, etc, etc... Not a Engineer by any means, I am in the Medical Field, however my dad is a retired electrical engineer and schooled me on this and said it has always been highly debated.

Regardless of all the engineer talk, "bottom line the most valuable thing you have with respect to your own audio system is your own hearing.

Callas01: The Audioholics page is a good place for info on DF.

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post #23946 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 09:26 AM
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Center Channel

Hey Guys,

I'm putting together a new HT system. I already have the electronics (Marantz AV8801/8077), and I have decided to go with the Dynaudio Focus 380 speakers. My local dealer is trying to sell me on buying the Contour SCX speaker for my center, rather than the Focus 210C. Obviously there is a huge price difference here.

Has anyone here been able to listen to and a/b the Contour SC vs Contour SCX vs Focus 210C? The system will be going into a very large room, and will be used for both music and HT so I'm willing to consider upgrading the center, but, without hearing any of them, I'm reluctant to shell out that much extra. I know this is very subjective, but if anyone has heard them and can give me some idea how much of a bang for my buck im getting, I would greatly appreciate any opinions.
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post #23947 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 09:44 AM
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li_diver: I currently have the SCX and it does a good job as a center. I haven't heard the Focus 210C but have heard good things about it. Room size might come into play but most of Dynaudio centers do a very good job of filling the room with good accurate dialogue and sound. Since the 380 uses the Esotar2 tweeter I am sure thats why they are steering you towards the SCX since they use the same tweeter, I think that is important especially across the front 3 speakers for HT.
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post #23948 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by li_diver View Post
Hey Guys,

I'm putting together a new HT system. I already have the electronics (Marantz AV8801/8077), and I have decided to go with the Dynaudio Focus 380 speakers. My local dealer is trying to sell me on buying the Contour SCX speaker for my center, rather than the Focus 210C. Obviously there is a huge price difference here.

Has anyone here been able to listen to and a/b the Contour SC vs Contour SCX vs Focus 210C? The system will be going into a very large room, and will be used for both music and HT so I'm willing to consider upgrading the center, but, without hearing any of them, I'm reluctant to shell out that much extra. I know this is very subjective, but if anyone has heard them and can give me some idea how much of a bang for my buck im getting, I would greatly appreciate any opinions.
What size is your room?

Dynaudio Contour 20, Focus 210C, DM 2/6, Hsu VTF3 MK5 HP, Oppo BDP-103, Naim Uniti Star, Marantz SR5010, 60" 4K Samsung LED LCD, XBOX ONE S
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post #23949 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 11:09 AM
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He has lowered to $6500...
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/mon...ale-heights-il

Still too high I think.

I am 100% sure that JS Audio quoted me $5500 for these new back in 2012. Same finish/edition.

Current HiFi: Dynaudio Focus 260 | Schiit Modi2 Multibit (Black) | NAIM SuperNait 2
Cables: Chord Cobra VEE3 RCA>DIN | Tellurium Q Black 3M

Past HiFi: Dynaudio Excite X16 | Dynaudio Focus 160 | Harman Kardon HK3490 | NAIM XS2 (70w)
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post #23950 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 11:18 AM
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What size is your room?
Callas01,

My room is 24 x 15 ft, but with cathedral ceiling on one side, and also open foyer on the other, so probably just under 5000 cu ft.
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post #23951 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 11:18 AM
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He has lowered to $6500...
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/mon...ale-heights-il

Still too high I think.

I am 100% sure that JS Audio quoted me $5500 for these new back in 2012. Same finish/edition.
GT let him ask whatever he wants. High price - Zero feedback usually = no sale.
I asked Tyler if he remembered list price and he said they started at 4800 for a basic finish and went to 5200. But he couldn't remember what the Anniv listed for because he never sold any.
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post #23952 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by li_diver View Post
Hey Guys,

................I have decided to go with the Dynaudio Focus 380 speakers. My local dealer is trying to sell me on buying the Contour SCX speaker for my center, rather than the Focus 210C. Obviously there is a huge price difference here.

................................... I would greatly appreciate any opinions.
I’ve no doubt they’re all good centers as I’ve actually sat through a few movies with just my original Contour Center having forgotten to turn on the amp for the Special 25s, but as Garman mentioned “use the same tweeter, I think that is important especially across the front 3 speakers for HT.

As my Contour Center only uses the Esotec tweeter there is an audible difference between it and the 25's Esotar, most noticeable when doing a tonal sweep during a calibration set-up, ideally a Confidence Center or even the SCX would be preferable but not economically feasible at this moment.
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post #23953 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 11:32 AM
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rob80b: I agree with you I started out withe the SCX but I was still selling Dynaudio at the time so the discount sure helped. The Confidence line however was way too expensive and still is, I am glad they have the SCX..



Special 25 info:

This was a quote from one of the articles on the net, awhile back ago, in 2010 they only made 75 pairs of them, but regardless of that I have seen them going for $3400-$3600 used, good news is the Warr, was 15 years not sure if it is transferable.

"Because of the extensive time and effort to produce a Special Twenty-Five, along with the limited availability of only 75 pair produced in the exclusive Bordeaux finish, the 2010 re-issue of this model will only be available for a short period of time. With this re-issue, Dynaudio enthusiasts will have one last chance to acquire one of the market’s most revered high-end compact loudspeakers in its original anniversary version.

"The Special Twenty Five will begin shipping in September and is priced at $5,750 per pair." <<<<<<<<<Sorry should have stated back in 2010 when this was run in one of the magazines.

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post #23954 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 11:37 AM
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Hey Guys,
And welcome li_diver to ....the Dynaudio thread.
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post #23955 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 11:42 AM
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"The Special Twenty Five will begin shipping in September and is priced at $5,750 per pair."
For a sec. there...thought there was yet another reissue.
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post #23956 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 02:49 PM
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Personally, I think the glossy piano black is the cheapest looking Dyn finish, but the black ash definitely doesn't look as elegant as the rosewood or walnut finishes. I currently have 110A's in black ash and they look alright, but they're a lot smaller than floorstanders too. Black ash reminds me a lot of the finish on the Pioneer Andrew Jones budget line, which were my previous drivers. They do show dust very well.
The black ash, I am not a fan of. I had Contour 1.3 in special order walnut and 1.3 SE's in Steinway Piano black, both were beautiful in different ways. I would give my left nut to have the 1.3 SE's back though, the finish on them was astounding!
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post #23957 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 03:05 PM
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Special 25 x-over as an attached image.
All the resistors are on the back, attached to an aluminium plate, to enhance thermal stability.

The dude said the coils can be improved upon. Also better capacitors than the cheap Audyncap models would do wonders. Granted: they already sound mighty fine. But I've upgraded the cross-overs of my Audience 122's back in the day, and that resulted in a sort of small Contour T2.5. Really nice! So I'm sort of tempted to see what will happen here. Although all inductor values are unknown.

But like I said: That modification will render them probably unsellable.

Thanks for your input, by the way!
My experience with Dynaudio and speaking with one of the engineers of the Contour 1.3 SE, is that you should not fool around with the crossovers at all. They were designed in house with maximum performance as the goal. The Dynaudio engineers know what they are doing and by the time you are dealing with a speaker like the Special 25, you have zero business tinkering with it. You may well change the sound but it is unlikely that you will "improve" the sound quality of the speakers.

Best of wishes!
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post #23958 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 03:21 PM
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The black ash, I am not a fan of. I had Contour 1.3 in special order walnut and 1.3 SE's in Steinway Piano black, both were beautiful in different ways. I would give my left nut to have the 1.3 SE's back though, the finish on them was astounding!
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Long time no see!!!
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post #23959 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 03:49 PM
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Long time no see!!!
How are you doing friend? I sure do miss those beautiful speakers!
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post #23960 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 03:54 PM
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Long time no see!!!
And, they definitely do not look cheap!
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post #23961 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 04:25 PM
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Hi math-geek
Welcome back - its been a while. My favorite finish is Walnut too and prefer high gloss
George
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post #23962 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 04:47 PM
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Hi math-geek
Welcome back - its been a while. My favorite finish is Walnut too and prefer high gloss
George
Thank You!

Dyn cheapened "gloss" black when they put it on the X series. Gloss black is not "Piano" black. Walnut is so pretty!
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post #23963 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 06:53 PM
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Callas01,

My room is 24 x 15 ft, but with cathedral ceiling on one side, and also open foyer on the other, so probably just under 5000 cu ft.
my room is 13.5Wx25L with a 6x9 entry way and open the stairwell leading to upstairs. The left side of the ceiling and wall comes together at 12' high and ramps upwards to the second story at 24' high. In my room the 210C is plenty fine for my listening levels (which at times can be pretty high). We use the rear of the room as a dining room, and even sitting there dialog and the center channel sounds just fine.

Personally Id ask for a demo unit of both the 210C and the SCX. IMO, the 210C will be more accurately voiced matched to the 380s, because of the crossover components influence on the sound, and the overall voicing of the Focus line in general. I think the 210C will sound closer to the 380s then the SCX. But Id ask for a demo unit to take home of each.

Dynaudio Contour 20, Focus 210C, DM 2/6, Hsu VTF3 MK5 HP, Oppo BDP-103, Naim Uniti Star, Marantz SR5010, 60" 4K Samsung LED LCD, XBOX ONE S
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post #23964 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by li_diver View Post
Hey Guys,

I'm putting together a new HT system. I already have the electronics (Marantz AV8801/8077), and I have decided to go with the Dynaudio Focus 380 speakers. My local dealer is trying to sell me on buying the Contour SCX speaker for my center, rather than the Focus 210C. Obviously there is a huge price difference here.

Has anyone here been able to listen to and a/b the Contour SC vs Contour SCX vs Focus 210C? The system will be going into a very large room, and will be used for both music and HT so I'm willing to consider upgrading the center, but, without hearing any of them, I'm reluctant to shell out that much extra. I know this is very subjective, but if anyone has heard them and can give me some idea how much of a bang for my buck im getting, I would greatly appreciate any opinions.
Hey and nice choice of speaker! I have owned similar speakers you are asking about and many here know my thoughts on this. I have not owned the 210 but I owned the original 200c with the original Focus series. I have not owned SCX but I have owned the original Confidence center (not MKII) so I am dancing around both of your options. I currently own the 340s but recently made a trade. Focus is awesome but went in a different direction. I will say it's more money of course and if you can swing it I think your dealer is correct. I would go with SCX. It matches your tweeter and comparing the 200c to Confidence that I owned it was no comparison. Vocals in concerts, larger enclosure which in turn allowed a bit more openess. It was a different experience in HT and for this application is incredibly important.Is this more of a music first and movie second set-up? Are Blu-Ray concerts important to you? The center is truly the anchor and I am not so much what is the size of your room when it comes to center. Your pre-pro will help here in set-up.

My opinion only and not my cash but if possible boy I'd do it once and done with SCX. The 210 is not the match with your awesome speaker choice in tweeter or sheer output.

Sometimes invest once and not question yourself is cheaper than going the other direction, selling and rebuying.

Good Luck
Rick

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post #23965 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 07:31 PM
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callas01: You sure about that, I would think that you would want more careful voice matching with the tweeter and since the focus 380 uses the Esotar 2 and so does the SCX that it would be a better match. They did this with the Contour S5.4 and when I had them I was told to buy the SCX because it was better voice matched to the S5.4s. The 380 is kind of the odd ball but a good sounding one out of the Dynaudio line, and one I am thinking about in either a Rosewood or Walnut finish, huge fan of the Esotar!
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post #23966 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 08:31 PM
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callas01: You sure about that, I would think that you would want more careful voice matching with the tweeter and since the focus 380 uses the Esotar 2 and so does the SCX that it would be a better match. They did this with the Contour S5.4 and when I had them I was told to buy the SCX because it was better voice matched to the S5.4s. The 380 is kind of the odd ball but a good sounding one out of the Dynaudio line, and one I am thinking about in either a Rosewood or Walnut finish, huge fan of the Esotar!
but how do you voice a speaker? Clearly the Sapphires and S25s don't sound like the Confidence... The 380s don't sound like the C2, Ive heard both... I heard the 160s and 380s next to each other with the same Adele song, and voicing was the same... much closer IMO then the C2s. Now.... in terms of output, the 380s might overpower the 210C, and the larger SCX might be a better option, but that would be determined best buy an in-home audition.

Dynaudio Contour 20, Focus 210C, DM 2/6, Hsu VTF3 MK5 HP, Oppo BDP-103, Naim Uniti Star, Marantz SR5010, 60" 4K Samsung LED LCD, XBOX ONE S
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post #23967 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 09:41 PM
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Callas01

When speakers possess a similar timbre or tonal quality. Voice-matched (or timbre-matched) speakers in a home theater system will result in more seamless, consistent, convincing wraparound sound. A good way to get voice-matched speakers is to stay within a family or series of speakers from a single manufacturer or to get a pre-matched multi-speaker system.

Since the S5.4 and Focus 380 use the Esotar2 this comes into play mostly in a home theater setting, hence that is why Dynaudio created the SCX to match up with the S.5.4 or use it with the C2 or C4 if you didn't want to spend a ton of extra cash on the Confidence line and you are 100% correct in-home audition would be highly beneficial. Now this will be beneficial to me as well as I have the SCX and if I choose a speaker in the Focus line and I want a dual purpose speaker for music and HT, it would benefit my setup and situation to go with the Focus 380, if I decide to keep my C2s and just buy another stereo speaker I might just go for a Focus 260 or 160. Now with the S25 and Sapphires they are oddballs when it comes what specifically to use with a HT setup, but I was told years ago to pick the Center that best matches your front speakers and one that has the same or similar tweeter.

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post #23968 of 44476 Old 11-11-2014, 10:57 PM
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I understand the merits of HT more then that of 2-ch. What Im saying is that speakers within the same family will be voiced more accordingly then speakers from other lines in order to create that seamless soundstage you're talking about.

I don't have to tell anyone that Contours don't sound like Focus speakers. The Esotar2 in the S25s and Sapphires don't sound like the 5.4s or C2s... so theres no way to assume that the esotar2 in the SCX will sound like an exact match to the 380s. Like I said, I heard the 380s and the 160s, they sounded identical from my recollection. The only true way to know is to listen to them both.

that said, will the SCX be a better center channel, Id say yes. It will sound bigger, have more impact, probably keep up with the 380s more easily, and have overall greater resolution, however will the transition from R/C/L sound seamless and completely correct? Or will the SCX center channel sound more contour like and be a little more laid-back?

Dynaudio Contour 20, Focus 210C, DM 2/6, Hsu VTF3 MK5 HP, Oppo BDP-103, Naim Uniti Star, Marantz SR5010, 60" 4K Samsung LED LCD, XBOX ONE S
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post #23969 of 44476 Old 11-12-2014, 12:21 AM
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Callas01: I am going off of what Dynaudio told me when I was matching up my S5.4s and they suggested the SCX over the Contour Center. I was recently told the similar thing (from a dealer) when it came to the Focus 380 if I wanted to buy a pair what would be the best center channel for it and they told me the SCX, why because of the Esotar tweeter, now I am sure either would work well, just curious to see what Dynaudio take on this is? The SCX sounds more like the Confidence line because of the Esotar2 tweeter but of course mates well with the S5.4s.

On another note, just curious what type of playback system people are using with the Dynaudio? I might have asked this before, as I was contemplating on what route to go. I now just drag and drop my music on a 64GB USB Thumb Drive or use a USB Hard Drive and run it through my Oppo 105D which works out great so far!

Last edited by Garman; 11-12-2014 at 02:54 PM.
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post #23970 of 44476 Old 11-12-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post
Hey and nice choice of speaker! I have owned similar speakers you are asking about and many here know my thoughts on this. I have not owned the 210 but I owned the original 200c with the original Focus series. I have not owned SCX but I have owned the original Confidence center (not MKII) so I am dancing around both of your options. I currently own the 340s but recently made a trade. Focus is awesome but went in a different direction. I will say it's more money of course and if you can swing it I think your dealer is correct. I would go with SCX. It matches your tweeter and comparing the 200c to Confidence that I owned it was no comparison. Vocals in concerts, larger enclosure which in turn allowed a bit more openess. It was a different experience in HT and for this application is incredibly important.Is this more of a music first and movie second set-up? Are Blu-Ray concerts important to you? The center is truly the anchor and I am not so much what is the size of your room when it comes to center. Your pre-pro will help here in set-up.

My opinion only and not my cash but if possible boy I'd do it once and done with SCX. The 210 is not the match with your awesome speaker choice in tweeter or sheer output.

Sometimes invest once and not question yourself is cheaper than going the other direction, selling and rebuying.

Good Luck
Rick
Thanks to all who replied to my post about the Dynaudio centers. I guess I have a lot to think about here. I would like to listen to them, but I don't actually have the 380s yet, so I would not be able to tell how well they match. (Right now, I'm still using my JMLab Cobalt series speaker).

I wish my circumstances were a bit better right now. They were trying to talk me into getting a floor model of the Confidence C4. Gave me a good price, but still too rich for my blood.

Thanks again, and any other opinions are welcome.
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