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post #10111 of 16238 Old 09-29-2017, 02:45 PM
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Dirac

^^^^^^^^^ = what he said!

Tute , try letting Dirac only correct to 500hz or so. That is amazing in my room.
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post #10112 of 16238 Old 09-29-2017, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
RE: Revel vs. Infinity. I got this back from Mark Glazer last night, head engineer at Revel:

Hi John:

Absolutely no relationship! The Revel Concerta2 was done independently from the Infinity line. Different drivers waveguide and crossovers.

Only the ports share the Harman CPG port patent.
...


I actually attached the Concerta2 white paper here for download / viewing
Thanks so much for checking into this for me John and getting back to me so quickly. I guess the Infinities are not the way for penny pinchers to get Revel sound after all. Too bad!
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post #10113 of 16238 Old 09-30-2017, 08:08 AM
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I had a pair of F52's as my 2 channel speakers when I found a deal on a pair of mint salons v1 and I found them to sound more similar than different. I also had a pair of kef 105/3's in the room so just to see if it was brand sound or room acoustics I swapped all 3 pair around (leave the spikes off the salon and they slide across carpet) and while my db phone app showed similar response curves at the test frequencies on the stereophile disc the kef's sounded more different despite measuring alike...Without saying one speaker sounded better than another I was surprised how similar the revels sounded then the kef so different when looking at the spectrum they were so close to measuring alike in the same room.
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post #10114 of 16238 Old 09-30-2017, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
I had a pair of F52's as my 2 channel speakers when I found a deal on a pair of mint salons v1 and I found them to sound more similar than different. I also had a pair of kef 105/3's in the room so just to see if it was brand sound or room acoustics I swapped all 3 pair around (leave the spikes off the salon and they slide across carpet) and while my db phone app showed similar response curves at the test frequencies on the stereophile disc the kef's sounded more different despite measuring alike...Without saying one speaker sounded better than another I was surprised how similar the revels sounded then the kef so different when looking at the spectrum they were so close to measuring alike in the same room.
I think the small microphones in phones are not very good at picking up lower bass. That might account for some of the difference.
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post #10115 of 16238 Old 09-30-2017, 11:17 AM
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and certainly can't pick up distortion.
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post #10116 of 16238 Old 10-07-2017, 06:00 PM
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I just spent some time listening to the Revel F228Be here at RMAF. Gloss white with the white drivers looks pretty good. The top cap is gloss black instead of the rubbery looking F208 cap. The word "Revel" looks screened on in a light gold print, instead of the glued plastic logo piece. Forgot to take a picture, oops.

As for sound, the Oscar Peterson Trio had quite a bit more life and air in Harman's room than I hear with my F208s at home. I have to mention that I don't have the same level of source and amplification as the Mark Levinson equipment used here, so as with all the systems I'm hearing this weekend, I can't really say what's what. But there was a very obvious difference, with the sound of Oscar muttering (You Look Good To Me from We Get Requests) being very pronounced, almost surprising.
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post #10117 of 16238 Old 10-07-2017, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by denydog View Post
I just spent some time listening to the Revel F228Be here at RMAF. Gloss white with the white drivers looks pretty good. The top cap is gloss black instead of the rubbery looking F208 cap. The word "Revel" looks screened on in a light gold print, instead of the glued plastic logo piece. Forgot to take a picture, oops.

As for sound, the Oscar Peterson Trio had quite a bit more life and air in Harman's room than I hear with my F208s at home. I have to mention that I don't have the same level of source and amplification as the Mark Levinson equipment used here, so as with all the systems I'm hearing this weekend, I can't really say what's what. But there was a very obvious difference, with the sound of Oscar muttering (You Look Good To Me from We Get Requests) being very pronounced, almost surprising.

Was it a $5K difference?

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post #10118 of 16238 Old 10-07-2017, 07:45 PM
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Better be super good to make up the price difference

Primary set-up 5.1.4; Yamaha A2050, Paired w/Parasound P5 & ATI 522NC 2 channel amp
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post #10119 of 16238 Old 10-07-2017, 10:21 PM
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Difference seems to shrink when I'm not listening back to back.
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post #10120 of 16238 Old 10-08-2017, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by denydog View Post
Difference seems to shrink when I'm not listening back to back.

I'm glad you got a chance to have a listen.
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post #10121 of 16238 Old 10-08-2017, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
The Infinity line was de-emphasized several years back at Harman. The R&D budget was re-directed to Revel. Today the Infinity brand is more associated with "lifestyle products" vs. home theater or two channel.
The Infinity speakers featured in Dr. Olive and Dr. Toole's writings from around a decade ago showed pretty amazing performance. If the current line has only maintained the same standard, they should still be among the most accurate speakers you can buy.

Did you hear back on whether spins are available?
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post #10122 of 16238 Old 10-08-2017, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Jesse44 View Post
The Infinity speakers featured in Dr. Olive and Dr. Toole's writings from around a decade ago showed pretty amazing performance. If the current line has only maintained the same standard, they should still be among the most accurate speakers you can buy.

Did you hear back on whether spins are available?
Also it occurred to me that, while the new Revel line may have been developed independently from the new Infinity line, that doesn't mean the Infinity line was developed independently of older Revel technology and engineering. How much could have been borrowed when Infinity designed their Reference line? The Infinity Reference line could still potentially be very similar to Revel speakers.
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post #10123 of 16238 Old 10-09-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by motrek View Post
Also it occurred to me that, while the new Revel line may have been developed independently from the new Infinity line, that doesn't mean the Infinity line was developed independently of older Revel technology and engineering. How much could have been borrowed when Infinity designed their Reference line? The Infinity Reference line could still potentially be very similar to Revel speakers.
Infinity and Revel speakers are designed to the same sound quality target, so they should sound similar regardless of how much technology they share.

Check out Floyd Toole's comment on the Harman sound in this post in another thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post54819852
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post #10124 of 16238 Old 10-09-2017, 09:49 AM
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After owning F208s for two years, I'm about to become the proud owner of a pair of Salon 2's (a former demo pair I snagged on eBay). Very excited to make the jump, and never need to upgrade again

I figure it's time to replace my center speaker, which at the moment is an mid-quality previous bookshelf I had, a Behringer 2030p. I'm definitely not interested in dropping several grand on a Voice 2, and haven't been too convinced in general with the philosophy that the center should match the fronts, especially since I don't listen to surround music much (I just have the three fronts, so surround SACDs aren't so special without the rear surrounds). I'm thinking that as long as the center has the same spectral balance as the mains (i.e. for us Revel-users, the center is flat down to 80Hz) things should be fine.

I'm not too demanding of the center in general. I listen to music more, and my room is small, so not too much output is needed. People are sitting up to about 45 degress off axis (horizontally), so it is important to me that it work well off-center. The seats are within 12 feet of the center; it will be the sole powered output of my Anthem MRX 310, getting up to 80 watts (the mains are externally amped).

Basically right now I'm flipping between considering the Performa3 C205 and the M105. I don't think I'm going to hit the output limits of either, and don't have any space concerns - it's going to sit on top of a large TV stand, and the bottom of the wall-mounted TV is another 16" above or so. So I think I care most about horizontal off-axis performance, and my hazy understanding is that a normal bookshelf like the M105 is going to outperform a MTM config like the C205 here. I think the C205 wins out in volume output within maybe a 30 degree cone in front of it (key for a classic home theater setup), and is shorter in height so it will fit in some standard TV stands -- but neither of those things matter to me. Oh, and the M105 has a back port and will want to be a bit away from the back wall, but I can provide that I think. Does that comparison mostly seem right?

Does anyone have C205 spins? M105 spins are at post 7235 in this thread.

Are there any other options I should consider, like older 3-way revel centers I can find used, or maybe some under-appreciated Infinity speakers?

Thanks for any input.
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post #10125 of 16238 Old 10-09-2017, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Callahan View Post
After owning F208s for two years, I'm about to become the proud owner of a pair of Salon 2's (a former demo pair I snagged on eBay). Very excited to make the jump, and never need to upgrade again

I figure it's time to replace my center speaker, which at the moment is an mid-quality previous bookshelf I had, a Behringer 2030p. I'm definitely not interested in dropping several grand on a Voice 2, and haven't been too convinced in general with the philosophy that the center should match the fronts, especially since I don't listen to surround music much (I just have the three fronts, so surround SACDs aren't so special without the rear surrounds). I'm thinking that as long as the center has the same spectral balance as the mains (i.e. for us Revel-users, the center is flat down to 80Hz) things should be fine.

I'm not too demanding of the center in general. I listen to music more, and my room is small, so not too much output is needed. People are sitting up to about 45 degress off axis (horizontally), so it is important to me that it work well off-center. The seats are within 12 feet of the center; it will be the sole powered output of my Anthem MRX 310, getting up to 80 watts (the mains are externally amped).

Basically right now I'm flipping between considering the Performa3 C205 and the M105. I don't think I'm going to hit the output limits of either, and don't have any space concerns - it's going to sit on top of a large TV stand, and the bottom of the wall-mounted TV is another 16" above or so. So I think I care most about horizontal off-axis performance, and my hazy understanding is that a normal bookshelf like the M105 is going to outperform a MTM config like the C205 here. I think the C205 wins out in volume output within maybe a 30 degree cone in front of it (key for a classic home theater setup), and is shorter in height so it will fit in some standard TV stands -- but neither of those things matter to me. Oh, and the M105 has a back port and will want to be a bit away from the back wall, but I can provide that I think. Does that comparison mostly seem right?

Does anyone have C205 spins? M105 spins are at post 7235 in this thread.

Are there any other options I should consider, like older 3-way revel centers I can find used, or maybe some under-appreciated Infinity speakers?

Thanks for any input.
Congrats on the Salon 2s - I've never had the pleasure Given your unique situation, I think there are a lot of options and probably suggestions. If you're concerned at all about 'matching', I would probably try to stay in the Harman family and maybe focus on finding something with a cmmd or titanium tweeter - the C205 aluminum tweet is excellent but what I would describe as 'smooth' and I don't think you'll find anything with a Be in the price range you're suggesting. I can highly recommend the Infinity RC263(if you can find one). I ran it with my F208s before replacing it with a C208. Don't think it'll have the weight of the C205, and it might be just a tad harsh compared to the Salon Be's, but my guess is it'd be a better match and more revealing (just a guess). Recently sold mine or else I'd try to push you into one a bit more
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post #10126 of 16238 Old 10-09-2017, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Jesse44 View Post
Infinity and Revel speakers are designed to the same sound quality target, so they should sound similar regardless of how much technology they share.

Check out Floyd Toole's comment on the Harman sound in this post in another thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post54819852
Makes sense and it will be interesting to see the data on the Infinity speakers, if possible.

Considering that Revel's technology seems to be very good, it seems appropriate that Infinity would borrow Revel designs/technology/research for their own products whenever appropriate.

So, even if Revel's latest model line has new waveguides (for example) that were developed independently of Infinity, as John Schuermann has reported, it seems possible that Infinity's waveguides are borrowed from other Revel speakers. I mean, why not? It's not like Revel is going to sue Infinity for copying their stuff. And it's not like Revel's older stuff was bad.

So the more I think about it, the more it seems like Infinity's Reference line might be essentially budget Revel speakers. That's pretty interesting to me. As somebody who's never spent more than $300 on speakers, stepping up to $1600 is an uncomfortable jump. But if I can get similar (but obviously not quite as good) technology and performance from $800 speakers, that seems like a pretty smart move.
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post #10127 of 16238 Old 10-09-2017, 05:00 PM
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Thanks for the tip--I have been looking there, and eBay. Although the F35 is new enough that I wouldn't expect to see any on there for quite some time... I doubt anybody would get rid of such a new purchase so quickly; if they didn't like it from the outset, they would have just returned it to the dealer. So it seems like most of the stuff advertised on these sites is the stuff Revel was making years ago and is too expensive for me.

Still curious about sound quality re: Infinity Reference 253 vs. Revel F35... Really wonder if Harman is selling Revel sound quality in an uglier package...
I have the Infinity RC252 and the Revel S16, only as a single (center channel) and not in stereo. My opinion is that the Revel S16 sounds much better than the RC252, although the Infinity still sounds pretty good. The RC252 has punchier bass but the Revel's sound more natural and effortless, very clear and great sound stage.

I to thought about buying the Infinity Reference as a substitute for the Revel Concerta2 but the $$ is worth it for the Concerta2. Plus they look nicer.
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post #10128 of 16238 Old 10-09-2017, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Callahan View Post
After owning F208s for two years, I'm about to become the proud owner of a pair of Salon 2's (a former demo pair I snagged on eBay). Very excited to make the jump, and never need to upgrade again

I figure it's time to replace my center speaker, which at the moment is an mid-quality previous bookshelf I had, a Behringer 2030p. I'm definitely not interested in dropping several grand on a Voice 2, and haven't been too convinced in general with the philosophy that the center should match the fronts, especially since I don't listen to surround music much (I just have the three fronts, so surround SACDs aren't so special without the rear surrounds). I'm thinking that as long as the center has the same spectral balance as the mains (i.e. for us Revel-users, the center is flat down to 80Hz) things should be fine.

I'm not too demanding of the center in general. I listen to music more, and my room is small, so not too much output is needed. People are sitting up to about 45 degress off axis (horizontally), so it is important to me that it work well off-center. The seats are within 12 feet of the center; it will be the sole powered output of my Anthem MRX 310, getting up to 80 watts (the mains are externally amped).

Basically right now I'm flipping between considering the Performa3 C205 and the M105. I don't think I'm going to hit the output limits of either, and don't have any space concerns - it's going to sit on top of a large TV stand, and the bottom of the wall-mounted TV is another 16" above or so. So I think I care most about horizontal off-axis performance, and my hazy understanding is that a normal bookshelf like the M105 is going to outperform a MTM config like the C205 here. I think the C205 wins out in volume output within maybe a 30 degree cone in front of it (key for a classic home theater setup), and is shorter in height so it will fit in some standard TV stands -- but neither of those things matter to me. Oh, and the M105 has a back port and will want to be a bit away from the back wall, but I can provide that I think. Does that comparison mostly seem right?

Does anyone have C205 spins? M105 spins are at post 7235 in this thread.

Are there any other options I should consider, like older 3-way revel centers I can find used, or maybe some under-appreciated Infinity speakers?

Thanks for any input.
If off-axis performance is important you really want a 3-way center, my understanding is that 2-ways suffer from comb filtering but 3-way designs alleviate that.

I have the 3-way Infinity Interlude IL36C center and it's great, a huge upgrade from the 2-way Infinity Modulus center channel I had before. I picked it up off of Ebay where they occasionally show up (tough unfortunately the 2-ways are far more common). The Infinity Alpha and Beta 3-way centers look to be almost identical, and there's the current Infinity Reference 3-way center that you can buy online from Infinity for $500 which is also very similar.

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post #10129 of 16238 Old 10-09-2017, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Callahan View Post
After owning F208s for two years, I'm about to become the proud owner of a pair of Salon 2's (a former demo pair I snagged on eBay). Very excited to make the jump, and never need to upgrade again

I figure it's time to replace my center speaker, which at the moment is an mid-quality previous bookshelf I had, a Behringer 2030p. I'm definitely not interested in dropping several grand on a Voice 2, and haven't been too convinced in general with the philosophy that the center should match the fronts, especially since I don't listen to surround music much (I just have the three fronts, so surround SACDs aren't so special without the rear surrounds). I'm thinking that as long as the center has the same spectral balance as the mains (i.e. for us Revel-users, the center is flat down to 80Hz) things should be fine.

<elided>

Congrats on the Salon 2's!

Might want to just hang out for a good deal on a used or B-stock Voice 2. It's great, though big and pricey.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #10130 of 16238 Old 10-11-2017, 09:40 AM
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Does anyone have C205 spins? M105 spins are at post 7235 in this thread.
C205 and C208 spins are in post 9938 (thanks again, @John Schuermann ) - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post54648414
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post #10131 of 16238 Old 10-12-2017, 03:09 AM
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If off-axis performance is important you really want a 3-way center, my understanding is that 2-ways suffer from comb filtering but 3-way designs alleviate that.

I have the 3-way Infinity Interlude IL36C center and it's great, a huge upgrade from the 2-way Infinity Modulus center channel I had before. I picked it up off of Ebay where they occasionally show up (tough unfortunately the 2-ways are far more common). The Infinity Alpha and Beta 3-way centers look to be almost identical, and there's the current Infinity Reference 3-way center that you can buy online from Infinity for $500 which is also very similar.
I too am a big fan of of 3 way centers vs MTM configurations. I am just switching out my venerable IL36 for Revels C208 and am expecting it should mate fairly well with my Studios 2s. Like other posters, I just couldn't pony up for the Voice 2 which is hard to come by thus keeping resale value higher than I wanted to stretch.
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post #10132 of 16238 Old 10-12-2017, 02:04 PM
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Does anyone have any experience with the Revel M10/C10/M8 line? They've been around for nearly a decade and my dealer is recommending them to solve a couple of problems for me. The first would be M10s as rear surrounds against a back wall since I can place them in a tight spot against the wall since they are front ported. The M8s would be used in the same theater as Atmos height speakers mounted against the wall near the ceiling.

They were recommended to round out my theater since I'm looking to install a pair of C763Ls in a pair for Dolby Atmos.
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post #10133 of 16238 Old 10-13-2017, 06:02 AM
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I too am a big fan of of 3 way centers vs MTM configurations. I am just switching out my venerable IL36 for Revels C208 and am expecting it should mate fairly well with my Studios 2s. Like other posters, I just couldn't pony up for the Voice 2 which is hard to come by thus keeping resale value higher than I wanted to stretch.
I got my F208's in June F's for R&L and the C. I'm extremely pleased with them. From what I have read you 208C should mate with your Studios. I look forward to hearing about your set up and how well the do mate.

Enjoy your Revels.

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Have fun with music and HT

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post #10134 of 16238 Old 10-13-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Callahan View Post
After owning F208s for two years, I'm about to become the proud owner of a pair of Salon 2's (a former demo pair I snagged on eBay). Very excited to make the jump, and never need to upgrade again

I figure it's time to replace my center speaker, which at the moment is an mid-quality previous bookshelf I had, a Behringer 2030p. I'm definitely not interested in dropping several grand on a Voice 2, and haven't been too convinced in general with the philosophy that the center should match the fronts, especially since I don't listen to surround music much (I just have the three fronts, so surround SACDs aren't so special without the rear surrounds). I'm thinking that as long as the center has the same spectral balance as the mains (i.e. for us Revel-users, the center is flat down to 80Hz) things should be fine.

I'm not too demanding of the center in general. I listen to music more, and my room is small, so not too much output is needed. People are sitting up to about 45 degress off axis (horizontally), so it is important to me that it work well off-center. The seats are within 12 feet of the center; it will be the sole powered output of my Anthem MRX 310, getting up to 80 watts (the mains are externally amped).

Basically right now I'm flipping between considering the Performa3 C205 and the M105. I don't think I'm going to hit the output limits of either, and don't have any space concerns - it's going to sit on top of a large TV stand, and the bottom of the wall-mounted TV is another 16" above or so. So I think I care most about horizontal off-axis performance, and my hazy understanding is that a normal bookshelf like the M105 is going to outperform a MTM config like the C205 here. I think the C205 wins out in volume output within maybe a 30 degree cone in front of it (key for a classic home theater setup), and is shorter in height so it will fit in some standard TV stands -- but neither of those things matter to me. Oh, and the M105 has a back port and will want to be a bit away from the back wall, but I can provide that I think. Does that comparison mostly seem right? Are there any other options I should consider, like older 3-way revel centers I can find used, or maybe some under-appreciated Infinity speakers?
I have F208's and use an old Mackie HR626 (powered horizontal MTM). It's OK on axis but not great off axis. It does the job and matches the F208s well because they are flat and have a wave guide aluminum tweeter. They are an inexpensive Genelec rip off used by pro audio guys. No longer made, but my point is, given your parameters you can get by with any number of things. Dr. Toole says center channels like the C208 and Voice2 are better off axis. I'd go that route if you can afford it.

I considered using a JBL LSR 705P for center. Small footprint, fits under the TV, has great specs and reviews.

M105 would be a good choice if you have a spare amp channel and vertical orientation works under your screen. M106, bigger woofer, better bass. Horizontal vs vertical? Tweeter vs compression driver, tweeter and midrange vs tweeter only?

Best match for Salon2 is Voice2. Down the list is C208. Everything else is further down the list as far as blending well. Then there is the aesthetic. Do you care if it looks like a match for the Salon2?
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Last edited by Rex Anderson; 10-13-2017 at 04:44 PM.
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post #10135 of 16238 Old 10-14-2017, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post
Does anyone have any experience with the Revel M10/C10/M8 line? They've been around for nearly a decade and my dealer is recommending them to solve a couple of problems for me. The first would be M10s as rear surrounds against a back wall since I can place them in a tight spot against the wall since they are front ported. The M8s would be used in the same theater as Atmos height speakers mounted against the wall near the ceiling.

They were recommended to round out my theater since I'm looking to install a pair of C763Ls in a pair for Dolby Atmos.
Have not heard them but researched quite a bit when I built my system. Sounds like your room/system has restrictions so hard to comment on specifics but some very general info/guidelines IMHO...

- many older Harman products(JBL, Infinity, Revel), especially in wall/ceiling speakers share parts/similarities(if not identical) - the C763L is an updated(many would say improved, or at least tweaked to match Revels better) version of the original Revel IC15, JBL LC360, Infinity ERS610.

- Try to match your speakers as much as possible or at least in groups (all 4 atmos the same, surrounds matching fronts an if can't,match the atmos) if not specific brand/series then family sound using tweet material as a guideline (eg: Harmans w/Alum tweets). - in general, I've found many Harmans with CMMD/titanium tend to be a bit more bright/warm(M10/C10) w/ aluminum a tad more warm(C763Ls) - this said, I run F/C208s(alum) with 6 ERS610s(cmmd, 4-atmos, 2-rear/side-walls) and am very happy.

- Assuming you have sub(s) and unless 5.1 music a priority, HT for atmos/SR is going to xover'd pretty high and sealed enclosures will work well w/porting not really an issue.

If you're going to run in-ceiling wire for the C763Ls, do it for all 4 atmos speakers, match them and plan your placement(given appox 30 degree angle along with ceiling height) with PLL, and if you're going 5.1.4 and tight for space, consider running a a pr of them in wall slightly behind PLL for rear surrounds(won't work for proper 7.1.4). If you're going to use M10s(cmmd) for surrounds, you may want to try to find some of the older Harman 'atmos' models listed above for ceiling - they should match well and save you some $$$.
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post #10136 of 16238 Old 10-15-2017, 02:01 PM
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I have the voice 1 and would be surprised if anything new for what this speaker can be had for used would match its quality.

Meridian dsp8000se upgrade, Vienna acoustics Beethoven's, Hegel H360, Roon Nucleus, Rega jupiter cd, Revox s26 tuner,
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post #10137 of 16238 Old 10-15-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Callahan View Post
After owning F208s for two years, I'm about to become the proud owner of a pair of Salon 2's (a former demo pair I snagged on eBay). Very excited to make the jump, and never need to upgrade again

I figure it's time to replace my center speaker, which at the moment is an mid-quality previous bookshelf I had, a Behringer 2030p. I'm definitely not interested in dropping several grand on a Voice 2, and haven't been too convinced in general with the philosophy that the center should match the fronts, especially since I don't listen to surround music much (I just have the three fronts, so surround SACDs aren't so special without the rear surrounds). I'm thinking that as long as the center has the same spectral balance as the mains (i.e. for us Revel-users, the center is flat down to 80Hz) things should be fine.

I'm not too demanding of the center in general. I listen to music more, and my room is small, so not too much output is needed. People are sitting up to about 45 degress off axis (horizontally), so it is important to me that it work well off-center. The seats are within 12 feet of the center; it will be the sole powered output of my Anthem MRX 310, getting up to 80 watts (the mains are externally amped).

Basically right now I'm flipping between considering the Performa3 C205 and the M105. I don't think I'm going to hit the output limits of either, and don't have any space concerns - it's going to sit on top of a large TV stand, and the bottom of the wall-mounted TV is another 16" above or so. So I think I care most about horizontal off-axis performance, and my hazy understanding is that a normal bookshelf like the M105 is going to outperform a MTM config like the C205 here. I think the C205 wins out in volume output within maybe a 30 degree cone in front of it (key for a classic home theater setup), and is shorter in height so it will fit in some standard TV stands -- but neither of those things matter to me. Oh, and the M105 has a back port and will want to be a bit away from the back wall, but I can provide that I think. Does that comparison mostly seem right?

Does anyone have C205 spins? M105 spins are at post 7235 in this thread.

Are there any other options I should consider, like older 3-way revel centers I can find used, or maybe some under-appreciated Infinity speakers?

Thanks for any input.
Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. After looking around a bit, at the moment I'm leaning towards an Ascend Sierra-2, which is $750 new. My motivation is that the horizontal off-axis response is simply incredible due to the ribbon tweeter - it's still flat and only down about 4db when 45 degrees off-axis on the horizontal. The vertical polars are OK but not great, but this is fine for a center in my situation - people sit way off to the side in my living room, but everyone's ears are on the same plane. It's better than the M105/106, or any other dome speaker I've seen.

The only shortcoming I've noted, reading though this and the JBL thread, is that the speakers won't be phase-aligned with the mains, since the crossovers are completely different. If I got the Voice 2 (and only the Voice 2), and they were equidistant with the main Salon 2's, then effects would image correctly when panned left-right in movies. But this happens very rarely, and I don't think I care enough for this to be a major draw in choosing a center.

To recap, I think the only compromises this brings relative to e.g. the Voice 2 is excursion/max SPL, and vertical off-axis performance, neither of which I think will be issues in my living room.
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post #10138 of 16238 Old 10-15-2017, 06:05 PM
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Have not heard them but researched quite a bit when I built my system. Sounds like your room/system has restrictions so hard to comment on specifics but some very general info/guidelines IMHO...
I've included an updated diagram of my room and proposed improvements.

Quote:
- many older Harman products(JBL, Infinity, Revel), especially in wall/ceiling speakers share parts/similarities(if not identical) - the C763L is an updated(many would say improved, or at least tweaked to match Revels better) version of the original Revel IC15, JBL LC360, Infinity ERS610.
The big problem is that I'm trying to match existing AV123 Rocket tower speakers form 15 years ago to another company's products. I have to balance sound presentation against form factor. The sound has always been the laid back, lush variety. I recognize most other sound signatures will be a bit brighter...I just don't want them to be too bright and stand out too much.

Quote:
- Try to match your speakers as much as possible or at least in groups (all 4 atmos the same, surrounds matching fronts an if can't,match the atmos) if not specific brand/series then family sound using tweet material as a guideline (eg: Harmans w/Alum tweets). - in general, I've found many Harmans with CMMD/titanium tend to be a bit more bright/warm(M10/C10) w/ aluminum a tad more warm(C763Ls) - this said, I run F/C208s(alum) with 6 ERS610s(cmmd, 4-atmos, 2-rear/side-walls) and am very happy.
The Atmos speakers will be two in the ceiling and two as height channels against the TV wall ceiling. Given that Atmos speaker orientation is all about expected angles from the main listening position, as you can see in the diagram, I do not have enough space between the couch and the back wall for Atmos speakers in the ceiling behind the listening. There is only about 24 inches of depth available. Someone on another AVS forum recommended using height speakers instead of one pair of the ceiling speakers and I agreed it was a great idea. The diagram has the place up front where I propose to use Revel M8s on wall mounts at the corner where the wall meets to ceiling at 12 ft high. The angle to the couch at about 35 degrees which is well within Dolby's requirements.

Quote:
- Assuming you have sub(s) and unless 5.1 music a priority, HT for atmos/SR is going to xover'd pretty high and sealed enclosures will work well w/porting not really an issue.
I don't have a working sub...the previous one from AV123 gave up the ghost last year and I have chosen not to invest any more money in repairing it (it's been fixed once before). A new sub will be purchased at some point when I have budget.

I recognize that the M10/M8 series crossover at about 110 hz which is a little high but probably tolerable considering that the M8 form factor and built in wall mounts would solve a positioning problem. For the rears, the choice has either been M10s (since they are front ported and can be placed on stands against the wall pointed at the listening position) or in-wall speakers from Revel. The problem with in-walls are the ability to point them to focus at the listening position (or at least the tweeter). Not sure how flexible Revel products are to solve this problem.

Quote:
If you're going to run in-ceiling wire for the C763Ls, do it for all 4 atmos speakers, match them and plan your placement(given appox 30 degree angle along with ceiling height) with PLL, and if you're going 5.1.4 and tight for space, consider running a a pr of them in wall slightly behind PLL for rear surrounds(won't work for proper 7.1.4). If you're going to use M10s(cmmd) for surrounds, you may want to try to find some of the older Harman 'atmos' models listed above for ceiling - they should match well and save you some $$$.
Since the ceiling with be an X.1.2 + heights configuration, the angle of the two proposed C763Ls can be 65 degrees, which places them above the ottoman with the tweeters pointed back at the listener. I've debated about putting the right C763L either at the right section of the flat part of the ceiling or more in line with the front speakers. The wiring will be a challenge for my general contractor who is certainly up for the task. There is a garage underneath this room and I already have wires snaking the ceiling of the garage from the rear side towers I currently already have. There is also wiring on the opposite wall of the TV in the garage stairway from the TV to the equipment shelf.
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post #10139 of 16238 Old 10-16-2017, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I have F208's and use an old Mackie HR626 (powered horizontal MTM). It's OK on axis but not great off axis. It does the job and matches the F208s well because they are flat and have a wave guide aluminum tweeter. They are an inexpensive Genelec rip off used by pro audio guys. No longer made, but my point is, given your parameters you can get by with any number of things. Dr. Toole says center channels like the C208 and Voice2 are better off axis. I'd go that route if you can afford it.

I considered using a JBL LSR 705P for center. Small footprint, fits under the TV, has great specs and reviews.

M105 would be a good choice if you have a spare amp channel and vertical orientation works under your screen. M106, bigger woofer, better bass. Horizontal vs vertical? Tweeter vs compression driver, tweeter and midrange vs tweeter only?

Best match for Salon2 is Voice2. Down the list is C208. Everything else is further down the list as far as blending well. Then there is the aesthetic. Do you care if it looks like a match for the Salon2?
Had a little time to listen to the newly added C208 in my system which uses Studio 2’s for the mains. I initially had wanted to go with the Voice 2 but they are scarce and very expensive on the used market. I’m pleased to report that the C208 definitely holds its own with the mains and is a far better sonic (and visual) match with the Ultimas than the old but still respectable IL36c. The C208 is less “shouty” than the Infinity and dove tales into the front sound field much better. Very pleased with the upgrade.
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post #10140 of 16238 Old 10-16-2017, 04:05 AM
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Had a little time to listen to the newly added C208 in my system which uses Studio 2’s for the mains. I initially had wanted to go with the Voice 2 but they are scarce and very expensive on the used market. I’m pleased to report that the C208 definitely holds its own with the mains and is a far better sonic (and visual) match with the Ultimas than the old but still respectable IL36c. The C208 is less “shouty” than the Infinity and dove tales into the front sound field much better. Very pleased with the upgrade.
The C208 strikes me as a very reasonable compromise to pair with Salon2's or Studio2's if the Voice 2 is out of budget. Did you go with black so any finish differences would be less of a concern?
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