Revel Owners Thread - Page 349 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10441 of 15537 Old 11-14-2017, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post
Attached is an excerpt from the actual paper. I'm a huge fan of yours and read most of your work.
Thanks. The BBC perspective was biased by the rooms in which engineers had to work. Harwood took me on a tour of many of them. They were mostly very small, very dead rooms - fiberglass everywhere. The listening distances were much shorter than audiophiles would consider acceptable. That was the justification for the "more distant perspective" argument.

The BBC dip has been retired for good reason. If you have a neutral loudspeaker and want one, feel free to use an equalizer - then it can be turned off when listening to recordings mixed on modern monitors. It is time to move on . . .
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post #10442 of 15537 Old 11-14-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
More recently I had a discussion about the B&W 800 series loudspeakers with some highly accomplished tonmeisters (recording engineers with degrees) and the point was made that they are mostly favored for classical recordings. It seems that the sagging output in the upper midrange/lower treble nicely compensates for the overly bright pickup by microphones that are often suspended not far from and above the strings - violins radiate most high frequencies upward, so they sound more mellow back in the audience. Compensating errors? Those same engineers just had purchased the new JBL Pro M2s and were impressed by their neutrality and transparency. Go figure . . .
I'm one of those recording engineers with a degree. Some would even say accomplished, my clients and job supervisors liked my work.

I recorded classical music almost every day for 34 years. We had beautiful concert halls and a world class microphone collection. I learned about classical music recording techniques from a man who learned from Kenneth Wilkinson at Decca Records. We used the famous Decca Tree with outriggers employing five Neumann M-50 microphones for our orchestral recordings.

There are a number of ways to fix overly bright violin sound (choice of mics, mic placement, EQ etc). Choosing speakers that have an EQ curve that affects everything is not a good choice IMO.

I used B&W 801F's for many years because that was the speaker of choice at the time (late 70's, early 80's). There were few if any flat response speakers made then. When I switched to Dunlavy SC-V's in 2002, things made a lot more sense and I could get my mixes and mastering work to translate more easily. Unfortunately, I did not discover Revel until after I retired in 2010. I wish I could go back to work and use Salon2's, LSR708's and M2's. Mic choices, placement, mix balance, and EQ decisions would all be easier knowing you are not compensating for the EQ curve of the loudspeaker.

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post #10443 of 15537 Old 11-14-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I'm one of those recording engineers with a degree. Some would even say accomplished, my clients and job supervisors liked my work.

I recorded classical music almost every day for 34 years. We had beautiful concert halls and a world class microphone collection. I learned about classical music recording techniques from a man who learned from Kenneth Wilkinson at Decca Records. We used the famous Decca Tree with outriggers employing five Neumann M-50 microphones for our orchestral recordings.

There are a number of ways to fix overly bright violin sound (choice of mics, mic placement, EQ etc). Choosing speakers that have an EQ curve that affects everything is not a good choice IMO.

I used B&W 801F's for many years because that was the speaker of choice at the time (late 70's, early 80's). There were few if any flat response speakers made then. When I switched to Dunlavy SC-V's in 2002, things made a lot more sense and I could get my mixes and mastering work to translate more easily. Unfortunately, I did not discover Revel until after I retired in 2010. I wish I could go back to work and use Salon2's, LSR708's and M2's. Mic choices, placement, mix balance, and EQ decisions would all be easier knowing you are not compensating for the EQ curve of the loudspeaker.
Yes I knew you had at least one degree - you should call yourself a tonmeister - it adds a layer of class . . . but you don't need it :-) Sorry if I implied anything less.

Yes, the use of EQ, which can involve mic positioning or choice, is the logical thing to do to correct a spectral balance issue, but unfortunately many recording engineers did and some still do, use the monitor loudspeaker as a component in the mix. It is a steep climb to change that tradition. When monitor loudspeakers are chosen by using one's own master tapes all preceding bad habits get perpetuated, progress is inhibited. I am getting tired of trying.

B&W collaborated with Decca at one time years ago to such an extent that the peculiar response of their loudspeakers flattered Decca recordings. I even got a one-from-master tape of a performance from Decca to confirm that it was so. For a short time that irregularity appeared in several of their products. Now it is all different - there is no consistent target performance. I understand that the new top of the line has acquired a more neutral balance. We'll see.
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post #10444 of 15537 Old 11-14-2017, 09:38 PM
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B&W 802's were on my short list and I have listened to many flavors of B&W's over the years. Just never seemed to quite be what I wanted though couldn't deny there were a lot of nice-sounding speakers. Went with Salon 2's instead, but I am a hairy-knuckled engineer whose acoustic and professional sound reinforcement and recording background is long ago and far away, only thing golden in my ears are the hairs sticking out...
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post #10445 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Yes I knew you had at least one degree - you should call yourself a tonmeister - it adds a layer of class . . . but you don't need it :-) Sorry if I implied anything less.

Yes, the use of EQ, which can involve mic positioning or choice, is the logical thing to do to correct a spectral balance issue, but unfortunately many recording engineers did and some still do, use the monitor loudspeaker as a component in the mix. It is a steep climb to change that tradition. When monitor loudspeakers are chosen by using one's own master tapes all preceding bad habits get perpetuated, progress is inhibited. I am getting tired of trying.

B&W collaborated with Decca at one time years ago to such an extent that the peculiar response of their loudspeakers flattered Decca recordings. I even got a one-from-master tape of a performance from Decca to confirm that it was so. For a short time that irregularity appeared in several of their products. Now it is all different - there is no consistent target performance. I understand that the new top of the line has acquired a more neutral balance. We'll see.

Many thanks for all you have done and continue to do Dr. Toole. It's hard to believe that your research and findings have not lead to more significant changes in the loudspeaker industry. I have followed your work and read many of your papers since I joined the Audio Engineering society in 1974. I can see how you could be tired of trying to get people to listen, but glad you continue your efforts and have updated your book.

You do have many followers who help spread the word. I recently spoke with my former colleagues and employees at the University of Illinois School of Music and recommended your book be used for their audio engineering and acoustics classes. And, I always recommend your book when I have the opportunity on other forums that discuss loudspeakers and room acoustics.

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post #10446 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Thanks. The BBC perspective was biased by the rooms in which engineers had to work. Harwood took me on a tour of many of them. They were mostly very small, very dead rooms - fiberglass everywhere. The listening distances were much shorter than audiophiles would consider acceptable. That was the justification for the "more distant perspective" argument.

The BBC dip has been retired for good reason. If you have a neutral loudspeaker and want one, feel free to use an equalizer - then it can be turned off when listening to recordings mixed on modern monitors. It is time to move on . . .
Mic drop..
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post #10447 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
@Karl Maga and if you had to choose one pair it would be ?..
I chose the Revels. But honestly, more so out of a desire to play around and WAF. I like them both. I’ve not had the Revels long enough compared to the B&W’s. That is, I expect to like them more as time goes on.

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post #10448 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 02:26 PM
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So I've got a problem. I blame John and Joel. All I want to do these days is sit in the theater and watch 4k/Atmos movies and shows. Totally sapping my productivity. This setup is fantastic. I'm amazed every time I turn it on.
LOL! So glad you are happy

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post #10449 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post
Agreed wholeheartedly.
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Even Kevin Voecks admits that although measurements are important they don’t tell the whole story. I’m a huge Revel fanboy, but I wouldn’t put the F206 in the same class as the Olympica III. You can stare at Spinoramas all day, but frequency response is only one of the (admitantly important) aspects of speaker performance.
Just wanted to clarify something - Spinoramas do not just show frequency response. They also show dispersion, total sound power within a room, and off axis response. It's a much more complete set of measurements than a simple frequency response graph, which I agree might not tell you much. As the research at Harman has shown, a speaker with good on axis response but terrible off axis response can sound pretty poor.

Just also want to point out that in the scientific peer reviewed research Harman has published they have shown an 86% correlation between Spinorama performance and listener preference in double blind testing.

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post #10450 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Twiceborn View Post
So I just noticed crutchfield is now selling Revel products online. This is full price of course. Thoughts on what this means for the specialty shops?
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I just went to one and they stopped carrying Revel, probably one reason why...
Actually, it's good news for us dealers. About the only challenge for Revel is that most people have never heard of them. This should greatly increase brand awareness, plus all online retailers have to sell them for MSRP.

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post #10451 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Sean Olive "Audio's Circle of Confusion"

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/1...confusion.html

There is no speaker that can be selected based on all mixing choices.
What can be done is to purchase accurate speakers and purchase the best recordings possible.

When that fails, use tone-control sprinkles as desired to make the recording listenable.

- Rich
Nailed it!

Interesting how confused people can be by the Circle of Confusion, lol.

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post #10452 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by IKohlbacher View Post
So I've got a problem. I blame John and Joel. All I want to do these days is sit in the theater and watch 4k/Atmos movies and shows. Totally sapping my productivity. This setup is fantastic. I'm amazed every time I turn it on.
What are some good sources for getting Atmos compatible shows? I am assuming that these are Live Music performances or other music shows. Heck, I will settle for non Atmos 5.1 shows.

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post #10453 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 03:54 PM
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I'll chime in on the new 228 Be......I listened to them several times at RMAF and thought they sounded absolutely great. They were so dynamic and the bass was outstanding. Not keen on the white drivers though. I think even at $10K these are a sure bet. I would love to see them against some other speakers du jour in the $20K-$30K range....no doubt it would be illuminating.

I had F208's for two years and now have Salon2's in a strictly 2 channel system. The 208's are SO good that it took a little while to tease out what the Salon2' do better, which ends up being a lot, but it is not going to be immediately apparent. The 228's take the 208's a lot further. Kevin Voecks says the Salon2's will still beat them handily in blind tests but IMO they get pretty close. Going back to bass....I think the 208's and 228's do a little something special in the bass department...they don't go as low as the Salon's but they are punchier in the mid-bass and have a little more jump factor. I'd be interested to know if anyone else agrees on this.

Also it was interesting to see what appears to be a F206 BE in the photos posted a little ways back. Surprising no-one here has heard anything about them.
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post #10454 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 04:01 PM
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I mentioned a while back that the "Be" line was going to be expanded. Can't really say much more at this point, but obviously the F226Be cat is out of the bag.

I think the F226Be is going to be a really hot seller. The 206 just has a size and form factor that a lot of people love. I have the F208s in our living room system, and they do definitely dominate the room

RE: Salon2s vs. F208s. Having spent quite a bit of time with both, the main difference I hear is a bit of extra "snap" in the overall sound with the Salon2s, plus string sections sound absolutely glorious. In fact, it was the violin sound on the Salon2s that made me feel like I had finally achieved speaker nirvana.

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post #10455 of 15537 Old 11-15-2017, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
...RE: Salon2s vs. F208s. Having spent quite a bit of time with both, the main difference I hear is a bit of extra "snap" in the overall sound with the Salon2s, plus string sections sound absolutely glorious. In fact, it was the violin sound on the Salon2s that made me feel like I had finally achieved speaker nirvana.
John, if you can think of a specific piece of music to exhibit this, please recommend it. I’m looking for something new to listen to on my new Salon 2’s as most of my library is Pop and Classic Rock.
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post #10456 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Karl Maga View Post
John, if you can think of a specific piece of music to exhibit this, please recommend it. I’m looking for something new to listen to on my new Salon 2’s as most of my library is Pop and Classic Rock.
Try Yo Yo Ma playing songs from Ennio Morricone. Cello as opposed to violin, but amazing string sound
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post #10457 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
I mentioned a while back that the "Be" line was going to be expanded. Can't really say much more at this point, but obviously the F226Be cat is out of the bag.

I think the F226Be is going to be a really hot seller. The 206 just has a size and form factor that a lot of people love. I have the F208s in our living room system, and they do definitely dominate the room

RE: Salon2s vs. F208s. Having spent quite a bit of time with both, the main difference I hear is a bit of extra "snap" in the overall sound with the Salon2s, plus string sections sound absolutely glorious. In fact, it was the violin sound on the Salon2s that made me feel like I had finally achieved speaker nirvana.
Hi John!

The big question is.....will there be a big center speaker?!

And i also have to say that the white color on the elements is really a big no no! i can say that all the people i have spoken to 7 out of 10 people would not buy the speaker because of this! and a few of them are Revel owners today and love the sound.

i can't stop wonder how they could make that mistake with this line up.


//Mike

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post #10458 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
The F206 has a size and form factor that a lot of people love. I have the F208s in our living room system, and they do definitely dominate the room.
After living with Dunlavy Audio Labs SC-V's (four-way, 7-speaker tower @ 75" H x 15" W x 27" D) for many years, my F208's seem tiny to me. I thought a speaker so small couldn't possible sound so big.

Dunlavy's SC-V speaker complement includes dual 12-inch woofers, dual 7-inch low-mids, dual 3-inch high-mids, and a single 1-inch silk-dome tweeter. The SC-Vs weigh in at 305 pounds each.

I also thought anything smaller than a monster speaker could not compare. I still haven't heard JBL M2's or Revel Salon2's, but I'm pretty sure they have no problem keeping up with much larger footprint speakers.

Bigger is not always better. I'm glad I didn't feel the need to take the Dunlavy's when we moved and downsized. When I first got them, the guy helping me move them lost control of his end and put a big hole in my hallway drywall. Not a scratch on the speaker though!

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post #10459 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 01:43 PM
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A recent experience had me thinking it would be interesting to blind test the new Paradigm speakers against the latest Revel speakers.

I auditioned the new and much raved about Paradigm "Persona" speakers, in this case the 3F. They are getting a lot of hype, both for the amount of money Paradigm poured into designing this new range and specifically for their new beryllium tweeter and mid drivers.

I found the Paradigms extremely impressive, sounding really neutral and well balanced, with a particularly open, clean and super clear presentation. That seems to be a defining characteristic from those who have reviewed, auditioned or bought the new Paradigms, and I was left with a greater sense of "clarity and realism" from the Paradigms than what I heard with the Revels (Revel Performa3/Revel Concerta F36). (That's just the impression I was left with - given these were in-store auditions there are obviously various confounding factors that would be in play).

As I understand it, Paradigm is one of the few other companies using essentially the same design goals and testing methods as Revel. But it's another company doing their own approach. Therefore it would be interesting, I think, to see if one company's speaker prevailed in blind tests over the other. Whether the shared design approach would mean they end up performing statistically indistinguishable in blind test preferences...or not. And given the similarity of the design approaches, perhaps blind shoot out results would suggest an advantage...or not!...of the new beryllium drivers in terms of contributing to any sonic differences.

Thoughts?
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post #10460 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
A recent experience had me thinking it would be interesting to blind test the new Paradigm speakers against the latest Revel speakers.

I auditioned the new and much raved about Paradigm "Persona" speakers, in this case the 3F. They are getting a lot of hype, both for the amount of money Paradigm poured into designing this new range and specifically for their new beryllium tweeter and mid drivers.

I found the Paradigms extremely impressive, sounding really neutral and well balanced, with a particularly open, clean and super clear presentation. That seems to be a defining characteristic from those who have reviewed, auditioned or bought the new Paradigms, and I was left with a greater sense of "clarity and realism" from the Paradigms than what I heard with the Revels (Revel Performa3/Revel Concerta F36). (That's just the impression I was left with - given these were in-store auditions there are obviously various confounding factors that would be in play).

As I understand it, Paradigm is one of the few other companies using essentially the same design goals and testing methods as Revel. But it's another company doing their own approach. Therefore it would be interesting, I think, to see if one company's speaker prevailed in blind tests over the other. Whether the shared design approach would mean they end up performing statistically indistinguishable in blind test preferences...or not. And given the similarity of the design approaches, perhaps blind shoot out results would suggest an advantage...or not!...of the new beryllium drivers in terms of contributing to any sonic differences.

Thoughts?
I have to admit some personal pride that both Paradigm and Revel are being discussed as worthy competitors. Paradigm was one of the first nascent Canadian companies to rent the NRCC loudspeaker test facilities I created. They learned early and well how to design good sounding loudspeakers. I haven't followed their progress in detail, but I would be surprised if they were to make silly errors in a prestige product.

From the limited data I have seen, I suspect that there would be considerable similarities between the two brands, if apples are compared to apples, price wise. In the end, with the information that is in the public domain, anyone who can read, has adequate engineering skill and measurement facilities, can design state-of-the-art loudspeakers. It intrigues me that so many companies still do not "get it" or are unable to "do it".

Ultimately, as you suggest the result of a proper double-blind test may be a statistical tie, in which the program is the remaining significant variable. Beryllium is only advantageous if it eliminates resonances in the operational band of transducers. In well designed systems this can be accomplished with other materials too, but they do not have the "exotic" appeal of beryllium - there is definitely a marketing component to its use. It is possible to design inferior loudspeakers using any diaphragm material.
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post #10461 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 02:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
I have to admit some personal pride that both Paradigm and Revel are being discussed as worthy competitors. Paradigm was one of the first nascent Canadian companies to rent the NRCC loudspeaker test facilities I created. They learned early and well how to design good sounding loudspeakers. I haven't followed their progress in detail, but I would be surprised if they were to make silly errors in a prestige product.

From the limited data I have seen, I suspect that there would be considerable similarities between the two brands, if apples are compared to apples, price wise. In the end, with the information that is in the public domain, anyone who can read, has adequate engineering skill and measurement facilities, can design state-of-the-art loudspeakers. It intrigues me that so many companies still do not "get it" or are unable to "do it".

Ultimately, as you suggest the result of a proper double-blind test may be a statistical tie, in which the program is the remaining significant variable. Beryllium is only advantageous if it eliminates resonances in the operational band of transducers. In well designed systems this can be accomplished with other materials too, but they do not have the "exotic" appeal of beryllium - there is definitely a marketing component to its use. It is possible to design inferior loudspeakers using any diaphragm material.
Bowers & Wilkins own several anechoic chambers and use them to create non flat SPL speakers with their special in-house curves. I'm pretty sure they "get it," they just choose to use their tools with a different approach. If they wanted to create a flat speaker, they could do it while asleep.
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post #10462 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 02:43 PM
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[QUOTE=NagysAudio;55142326]

"And this 86% thing again. You realize this was paid for by Harman's marketing department? The test is fully rigged. Their sample speakers, their music selection (possibly DSP doctored to sound good on Revels), their room (designed to sound good with Revels), their choice of competitor speakers, their speaker positioning (to make sure it sounds good with Revels), and even the selected crowd was conditioned and told what to listen for by Revel's own admission!"

You obviously have not read any of my papers or either of my books. if so you would know (a) that most of the important knowledge regarding the correlation between measurements and subjective ratings was learned from experiments during my 25 years as a research scientist at the National Research Council of Canada. That is a federal government lab, not funded by any loudspeaker brands. And (b) that when I was invited to join Harman as Corporate Vice President of Acoustical Engineering in 1991, I was encouraged to set up a Corporate research group - not connected to any brand - which would produce knowledge, not products. The corporate funding was to prevent excessive influence from the brands. If any of that knowledge was useful to any brand, that was a bonus. Another bonus was that the research group was free to publish and present their findings in the open society of science - in this case the Audio Engineering Society. It was not held as company secrets. I have received numerous awards over the years and all of them have come from industry organizations populated by non-Harman companies. Next week I get another one, this time from the Institute of Acoustics, a UK organization. If all of it was marketing based BS, a lot of serious engineers and scientists associated with well known brands have been misguided.

Even within Harman, there were instances of good knowledge being overcome by marketing "instinct". It is a big company and engineers were "inferior" to sales/marketing and research was something irrelevant to sales according to certain brand leaders over the years. So the research effort was definitely not paid for by marketing. In truth, if marketing had been on board all along Harman products would have been advertised in a very different way. "Better sound through research" would have been a true statement - not a throwaway comment from that other company :-)

I don't know where you are getting your information, but what is in your quote is simply wrong. Take some time off and read a bit.
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post #10463 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 03:04 PM
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Let me say that I completely agree with you Mr. Toole and value your research.

The fact you conducted a lot of your research in a independent lab and not for any manufacturer gives you a lot of weight in what you say.

I don't know who this NagysAudio guy is but he sounds like someone who thinks he is educated but really isn't. I'm in the research field myself (non-audio) and see this all the time.
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post #10464 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 03:45 PM
 
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[quote=Floyd Toole;55142544]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

"And this 86% thing again. You realize this was paid for by Harman's marketing department? The test is fully rigged. Their sample speakers, their music selection (possibly DSP doctored to sound good on Revels), their room (designed to sound good with Revels), their choice of competitor speakers, their speaker positioning (to make sure it sounds good with Revels), and even the selected crowd was conditioned and told what to listen for by Revel's own admission!"

You obviously have not read any of my papers or either of my books. if so you would know (a) that most of the important knowledge regarding the correlation between measurements and subjective ratings was learned from experiments during my 25 years as a research scientist at the National Research Council of Canada. That is a federal government lab, not funded by any loudspeaker brands. And (b) that when I was invited to join Harman as Corporate Vice President of Acoustical Engineering in 1991, I was encouraged to set up a Corporate research group - not connected to any brand - which would produce knowledge, not products. The corporate funding was to prevent excessive influence from the brands. If any of that knowledge was useful to any brand, that was a bonus. Another bonus was that the research group was free to publish and present their findings in the open society of science - in this case the Audio Engineering Society. It was not held as company secrets. I have received numerous awards over the years and all of them have come from industry organizations populated by non-Harman companies. Next week I get another one, this time from the Institute of Acoustics, a UK organization. If all of it was marketing based BS, a lot of serious engineers and scientists associated with well known brands have been misguided.

Even within Harman, there were instances of good knowledge being overcome by marketing "instinct". It is a big company and engineers were "inferior" to sales/marketing and research was something irrelevant to sales according to certain brand leaders over the years. So the research effort was definitely not paid for by marketing. In truth, if marketing had been on board all along Harman products would have been advertised in a very different way. "Better sound through research" would have been a true statement - not a throwaway comment from that other company :-)

I don't know where you are getting your information, but what is in your quote is simply wrong. Take some time off and read a bit.
As I've mentioned before, I've read most of your work. I'm not questioning anything about it, nor anything with NRC, etc.

I'm questioning the Revel's 86% nonsense. At my expense, I'm willing to travel to Harman to prove their 86% claim is horse's you know what. My music and my list of competitor speakers (your choice of 800D3, K2 S9900, DD67000, B&O Beolabs, KEF Blade) against their Salon/Studio.

Ya'll can YouTube and ridicule me publicly if I fail.

Remember, the 86% group are "trained" by Revel listeners. By their own admission. Trained to pick out Revel speakers attributes.

People are easy to manipulate, even in DBT. You tell them to listen for some low end pressurising warble and they will pick that speaker as the best, even if overall there were better sounding samples.

The whole concept of DBT is flawed. And it does not remove bias. I've proved this many times. Example: we have speaker A and speaker B. I do 20 switches for the blind testee, but never plug in speaker B. Every one here will at some point claim B. And that proves that bias is never removed.

Last edited by NagysAudio; 11-16-2017 at 04:06 PM.
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post #10465 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 05:13 PM
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[QUOTE=NagysAudio;55142984][quote=Floyd Toole;55142544]

"As I've mentioned before, I've read most of your work. I'm not questioning anything about it, nor anything with NRC, etc.
Remember, the 86% group are "trained" by Revel listeners. By their own admission. Trained to pick out Revel speakers attributes."

You may have read my work, but not my books obviously, nor the work that matters in the last comment, by Dr. Sean Olive:
Olive, S.E. (1994). “A Method for Training Listeners and Selecting Program Material for Listening Tests”, Audio Eng. Soc. 97th Convention, preprint 3893.
Olive, S.E. (2001). “A New Listener Training Software Application”, 110th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint No. 5384.
Olive, S.E. (2003). “Difference in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., 51, pp. 806-825.
Olive, S.E. (2004a). “A multiple regression model for predicting loudspeaker preference using objective measurements: part 1 – listening test results”, 116th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 6113.
Olive, S.E. (2004b). “A multiple regression model for predicting loudspeaker preference using objective measurements: part 2 – development of the model”, 117th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 6190.
Olive. S.E. (2009). “A New Reference Listening Room for Consumer, Professional and Automotive Audio Research”, 126th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Paper 7677.

I think the training software can still be downloaded from Sean's blog so you too can be "trained". All it does is train listeners to identify resonant colorations and describe them in terms that are useful to design engineers who attempt to eliminate such colorations. The result: the least colored loudspeakers win. Yes, I guess you could call that a Revel (or pick your brand, even car audio) bias. No apologies.

I don't know where you are getting your obviously biased, anti-Revel information. It is simply not true.

Funny that all the "untrained" but experienced listeners who participated in the pre-Harman NRC tests had the same preferences. The only filter I imposed on listeners was a hearing threshold test when it turned out that it mattered to the opinions we got.

Lest you think that I have an anti-B&W bias, I knew John Bowers quite well. He took the NRC measurements of his products seriously enough to send us some products for testing, and he even gave me a pair of DM6s (the pregnant robot/penguin). It was favorably reviewed by a Canadian magazine using NRCC facilities for measurements and double-blind listening evaluations. It was very flat/neutral for the time. He subsequently gave me a truly impressive perk - a fully funded trip to the Montreux Jazz Festival with some of his dealers. I stood just a few feet from Miles Davis as he performed - memorable! John was a real gentleman. I have met Peter Fryer who was (is?) engineering director, and used his data as the starting point for my investigation of the audibility of resonances - he recognized their importance too, so training listeners to identify them is probably a good idea. Right?
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post #10466 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post
As I've mentioned before, I've read most of your work. I'm not questioning anything about it, nor anything with NRC, etc.

I'm questioning the Revel's 86% nonsense. At my expense, I'm willing to travel to Harman to prove their 86% claim is horse's you know what. My music and my list of competitor speakers (your choice of 800D3, K2 S9900, DD67000, B&O Beolabs, KEF Blade) against their Salon/Studio.

Ya'll can YouTube and ridicule me publicly if I fail.

Remember, the 86% group are "trained" by Revel listeners. By their own admission. Trained to pick out Revel speakers attributes.

People are easy to manipulate, even in DBT. You tell them to listen for some low end pressurising warble and they will pick that speaker as the best, even if overall there were better sounding samples.

The whole concept of DBT is flawed. And it does not remove bias. I've proved this many times. Example: we have speaker A and speaker B. I do 20 switches for the blind testee, but never plug in speaker B. Every one here will at some point claim B. And that proves that bias is never removed.
You, sir, are making borderline slanderous claims here, and you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Seriously. You say you respect Toole's work, then you literally insult his integrity in your next post.

The following statements by you are categorically untrue and are borderline slanderous:

I'm questioning the Revel's 86% nonsense.


This is not Revel's claim!!! This is from peer reviewed, published scientific papers that compare listener preference with the Spinorama measurements. The results of the independent peer reviewed scientific studies show that the researchers could predict which speakers would win the listening tests with an 86% correlation. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH REVEL OR MARKETING. All Revel did is learn from the research, and design their speakers accordingly. It's clear you are not even following what is being written and reported here.

Remember, the 86% group are "trained" by Revel listeners. By their own admission. Trained to pick out Revel speakers attributes.

WRONG!!! Again, have you even researched this in the slightest? Again, NOTHING to do with Revel. Have you taken the training class? It's posted publicly. Please let us know where it's biased in favor of Revel in any way:

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/

People are easy to manipulate, even in DBT. You tell them to listen for some low end pressurising warble and they will pick that speaker as the best, even if overall there were better sounding samples.

Have you ever been to a Harman session? No one is told to listen for any specific attribute in the sound or recording. All the training does is educate people so they can better identify what they are hearing. Take the course for yourself! I posted the link. And, of course, if you actually read the research, you will see that Harman also tested UNTRAINED listeners and the results were compared to those of TRAINED listeners. The results of the listening tests were the same, no matter if the listeners were trained or untrained. The only difference with trained listeners is that they made decisions more quickly and were able to identify the specific characteristics they were hearing. Kindly READ the published, peer reviewed scientific papers that describe all this - they are out there for anyone who takes even a modicum of effort to find them.

Interesting you mention the KEF Blade. Do you know that KEF also uses Spinoramas, while also crediting Toole? You say you are not questioning Toole's work, but his work RESULTED in the Spinorama and his work RESULTED in the 86% correlation results. You are literally and blatantly calling BS on Toole's work, and either you are doing it on purpose or don't even realize it. I don't know which is worse at this point, honestly.

The whole concept of DBT is flawed. And it does not remove bias. I've proved this many times. Example: we have speaker A and speaker B. I do 20 switches for the blind testee, but never plug in speaker B. Every one here will at some point claim B. And that proves that bias is never removed.

That only proves that people are fallible and is even more of an argument in favor of double blind tests. It says nothing at all about bias, which is a very specific concept when applied to scientific studies.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about in regard to the above. Respectfully, sir, you do not. And I would encourage you to stop slandering those who do the valuable work that moves this industry forward.

John Schuermann
The Screening Room Home Theater Sales and Design
JS Music and Sound Film Scoring and Sound Design

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post #10467 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl Maga View Post
John, if you can think of a specific piece of music to exhibit this, please recommend it. I’m looking for something new to listen to on my new Salon 2’s as most of my library is Pop and Classic Rock.
After what I just wrote above, I'm a bit wiped out, lol. Here's what I originally posted in the M2 / Salon2 shootout thread:

In all those years, there has always been one specific quality I have looked for, and never found. And that is supreme "silkiness" and freedom from harshness in the high strings (violins, violas) and the extreme upper ranges of the female voice (such as in various pop / jazz / opera recordings). I listen to a large variety of music - jazz, rock, pop, classical - but most involves the orchestra in one way or another. As a sometime film composer who is just astounded at the sounds a symphony orchestra can make (if the symphony orchestra is not one of the most profound accomplishments to come out of western civilization, I don't know what is), tracking down a realistic, clean and believable orchestral sound has been my personal quest for decades.

With all of that said, that quality is precisely what the Salon2s have that the M2s lack, in my view. And that comes from listening to them in a large variety of spaces. The Salon2 is essentially the speaker I have always been looking for. As stated, I have auditioned hundreds of speakers over the years, and until the Salon2s I have never heard a speaker that captures the sound I hear from a live string section.

Of course, I realize that much of this is recording dependent. But I have gone from never hearing it before to getting goosebumps on several occasions when I have been playing the Salon2s.

Here are two tracks that illustrate exactly what I'm talking about. Notice the strings coming in at about :26 into this track, and in particular the gorgeous harmonies Williams brings in at 1:26, then the extreme high register violins at 1:40:


The Salon2s are the first speakers I have ever heard that reproduce those strings cleanly and openly, without any sign of harshness and grit. The M2s get an honorable mention, but that silkiness is just not there. My guess that the Revel's secret sauce is not only the tweeter, but the waveguide and the expert blending between midrange and tweeter. Usually those ever-higher-reaching violins get turned to hash by the vast majority of speakers.

Here's another track, thanks to Joel Wasser, who introduced us all to it on Saturday afternoon (love the pedal point in the right hand):


This track gave my absolute, scientifically verifiable goosebumps when played back on the Salon2s When Sara hits the high notes, the Salon2s hung right in there and pulled them off without a hint of harshness. I was literally getting ready to wince when she hit those high notes, but instead - goosebumps. (NOTE - this is not the same recording Joel played for us - it was a different live performance found on Tidal.)

Another John Williams track - listen to the solo piano when it comes in at 2:06, then the gorgeous strings that come in at about 3 minutes (Williams' string writing is just phenomenal here - all the individual string parts and harmonies are so clear and well differentiated on the Salon2s):


There are more but I can't think of them right now. There was a Willy Nelson duet track that was played at the shootout that had a great sounding string section. If I can find it I'll post it
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post #10468 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by miike88 View Post
Hi John!

The big question is.....will there be a big center speaker?!

And i also have to say that the white color on the elements is really a big no no! i can say that all the people i have spoken to 7 out of 10 people would not buy the speaker because of this! and a few of them are Revel owners today and love the sound.

i can't stop wonder how they could make that mistake with this line up.


//Mike
RE: a Be Center. All I can say is that I (and others) lobbied hard for one

RE: the white cones. That's the color of the ceramic composite the cones are made of - it was not an aesthetic design choice, but an engineering choice. We all want these things to sound their best, don't we?

Put the grills on - problem solved
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post #10469 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 06:06 PM
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It's pretty clear at this point that NagysAudio is nothing more then a troll (SHOCKER: Also owner/employee of a snake-oil company selling overpriced magical cables and other audiophool crap).

Hopefully the mods step in at some point and end this waste of time.
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post #10470 of 15537 Old 11-16-2017, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
It's pretty clear at this point that NagysAudio is nothing more then a troll (SHOCKER: Also owner/employee of a snake-oil company selling overpriced magical cables and other audiophool crap).

Hopefully the mods step in at some point and end this waste of time.
Agree. Had to fire my parting shot, though.
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