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post #11161 of 16554 Old 02-01-2018, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Frequency Response: 54Hz - 44kHz (-6dB)

No, actually - they've taken the boundary switch off the F228Be. Reason is to clean up the signal path. The tweeter control was eliminated as well, same reason.
That’s the 228?

I was looking for the FR for the old 208.
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post #11162 of 16554 Old 02-01-2018, 12:27 PM
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Duh, sorry - should have read more carefully. Not sure - will see if I can find out! I imagine up to 22 khz.

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post #11163 of 16554 Old 02-01-2018, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Assume they will have the boundary switching as well?
What’s the upper HF spec of the 208? I can’t find it.

Thanks for all the info

Chris
Stereophile measured a peak up around 25 kHz but essentially flat to 30 kHz or so.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...08-loudspeaker

HTH - Don

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post #11164 of 16554 Old 02-01-2018, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
How does the "deep ceramic composite" compare with the former ceramic/aluminum that was used for years by Revel and Infinity? It was called a ceramic composite as well as I remember. It is/was a good material. There was no indication of why Harman stopped using it.
I assume cost is an issue, if you look at OEM drivers, a pair of 6"+ Accuton ceramic mids cost about $600.00. The MSRP of a retail product includes both manufacturer and dealer profit margins, there's not that much room in there to fit high BOM drivers.
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post #11165 of 16554 Old 02-02-2018, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Stereophile measured a peak up around 25 kHz but essentially flat to 30 kHz or so.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...08-loudspeaker

HTH - Don
Thanks Don
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post #11166 of 16554 Old 02-03-2018, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
I have heard Dr Toole say revels sound very close to each other from bottom of line to top...I find this to be a tad misleading??? surely the lowest end of series cant equal top end minus a bunch of db's??? otherwise i guess if one is to listen at 75-85 db's why bother with anything else...all you need is a watt or 2 and be happy for cheaper.

this applies to any brand including focal what i listen to.
I can't speak for the latest speakers, but I had a pair of f52's and bought a pair of salon1 locally and using the same equipment driving both (anthem 225I) the sound was nearly identical! the f52 were easier to dial imaging in. The salon just output more, hard to explain, but they're bigger and sounded bigger and while sounding the same managed to fill the room with sound without compression. I never noticed my f52's sounding strained until a side by side with the salon when it became apparent either the speakers needed more than 225wpc or the smaller drivers didn't have the volume to fill my basement with realistic spl.
It would make sense that revel deciding the 'perfect sound' thru listening tests would voice the speakers the same, then keeping the voicing sacrifice spl to reach each price point. Cabinet construction costs go down as size and resonance control go down so it all is relative.
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post #11167 of 16554 Old 02-03-2018, 10:13 AM
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The smoothness of the spinorama graphs generally increases as you go up the model ladder, so an improvement in sound quality should be expected. This has been demonstrated conclusively in the DB testing at Harman. And of course, the larger models will play lower and louder. At lower volumes, the differences may not be as pronounced as they are when you start raising the volume.

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post #11168 of 16554 Old 02-03-2018, 12:33 PM
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Would you guys recommend Revel F36 for front speakers in a living room where 50% of usage is listening to music and 50% is watchig movies/Netflix? No subwoofer, no surround speakers - at least for now.

I was listening to floor standing speakers in this price range in an hifi store (or whatever you call the shops which sell audio equipment) and Revel F35 was a very good candidate. I think it had quite neutral sound with no shortcomings with variety of music (from classical to progressive metal). I was not able to listen to F36 there but I guess it is quite similar to F35?

Are there other good floor standing speakers in this price range I should also consider? I'd love to compare Revel F36 to Elac FS 267 and maybe Monitor Audio Silver 500.

Avr: Denon AVR-X1200W, speakers: 2 x Revel F36, TV: LG 55C7V
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post #11169 of 16554 Old 02-03-2018, 04:59 PM
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Anyone have experience with IsoAcoustics products?
Specifically these:

http://www.isoacoustics.com/products...eries/gaia-ii/

I'm generally skeptical of expensive tweaks but isolation does have validity to me, it's just at what cost.
I've read several reviews etc., and while $600 is not inexpensive to me it's not outrageous especially compared with other isolation products
I've seen that are nothing more than sorbothane that I can and have purchased on McMaster-Carr relatively cheap.

My Studio2s are going to be sitting on mahogany floors. I've considered using the included spikes using the nylon ends and placing them 1/4 thick high density sorbothane.
Not very attractive except for the price
I've used the same material under my front load washer and it positively stops the washer from walking.
Also on my DIY equipment rack which is hell-built for stout.

BTW, if you are unfamiliar with the M-C site I highly recommend it for all manner of hardware.

As always, I'm not looking to spark a contentious back n forth about snake oil products and I'm not going to argue about any of them.

 
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post #11170 of 16554 Old 02-03-2018, 05:31 PM
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This kind of things is like high-heeled shoes, earrings or jewels when are talking about an actress. He looks better with these accessories, but they doesn't make her a better performer.
I use the original spikes on my speakers and just added four little (DiY) methacrylate squares to place them. They look pretty good without damage on the wood floor.
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post #11171 of 16554 Old 02-03-2018, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OsoSolitario View Post
This kind of things is like high-heeled shoes, earrings or jewels when are talking about an actress. He looks better with these accessories, but they doesn't make her a better performer.
I use the original spikes on my speakers and just added four little (DiY) methacrylate squares to place them. They look pretty good without damage on the wood floor.
Interesting, never heard of that substance before.

I know what you're saying, but appearance is the least of my concerns within limits.

I left this out before but I equate the isolaters in a way to speaker stands.
$600 for good speaker stands is pretty reasonable these days.

 
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post #11172 of 16554 Old 02-03-2018, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by OsoSolitario View Post
This kind of things is like high-heeled shoes, earrings or jewels when are talking about an actress. He looks better with these accessories, but they doesn't make her a better performer.
I use the original spikes on my speakers and just added four little (DiY) methacrylate squares to place them. They look pretty good without damage on the wood floor.
Plexiglas?
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post #11173 of 16554 Old 02-03-2018, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
I left this out before but I equate the isolaters in a way to speaker stands.
$600 for good speaker stands is pretty reasonable these days.
But they aren't speaker stands, they're speaker feet. All you want is isolation, right? The spikes you already have give you that. All you need is something to protect the floor. Pennies are commonly used. If it were me, I'd simply replace the spikes with cheap rubber speaker feet. But if you need a new toy, those are some nice jewelry.
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post #11174 of 16554 Old 02-04-2018, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Plexiglas?
Plexiglas, Yes!
I live in Spain (Europe), and almost everybody here says methacrylate (metacrilato in spanish).

Here the DIY bases


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post #11175 of 16554 Old 02-04-2018, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OsoSolitario View Post
Plexiglas, Yes!
I live in Spain (Europe), and almost everybody here says methacrylate (metacrilato in spanish).

Here the DIY bases

Thanks!
I have no idea how effective they are but they are unobtrusive.

To me though, the whole thing with spikes is to minimize the contact area and thus the coupling between the speaker and the floor.

 
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post #11176 of 16554 Old 02-04-2018, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by filmnut View Post
But they aren't speaker stands, they're speaker feet. All you want is isolation, right? The spikes you already have give you that. All you need is something to protect the floor. Pennies are commonly used. If it were me, I'd simply replace the spikes with cheap rubber speaker feet. But if you need a new toy, those are some nice jewelry.
I'm not looking for a new "toy" or wanting to piss away any amount of money just asking if anyone had experience with them.

Revel in thinking about details has provided double-ended spikes.
One end has metal spikes and the other end has some sort of nylon etc., half-round nub on the end for non-carpeted floors.

There are several approaches to isolation and some of the proponents are recording industry pros and respected audio gear designers that don't have a vested interest.
IsoAcoustics products are primarily sold through pro-audio retailers for whatever that's worth.

I don't equate these with little pebbles that channel waves from Hindu deities

 
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post #11177 of 16554 Old 02-04-2018, 04:45 PM
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I saw/heard a demo of the Gaia feet at last years RMAF. I didn’t do much critical listening, but there was a noticeable *difference* in the sound of the two pairs of identical speakers they were switching between. They are pricey but look well made, although I’m not sure if the difference was quite worth the cost.

I’m debating adding SVS isolation feet to Revel F208’s. My living room floor is quite live and if it makes a difference, great. If not, they are really easy to return. Plus, it’s $100 for 8 feet, much less expensive.
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post #11178 of 16554 Old 02-04-2018, 05:15 PM
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Two things come to mind here...

First, the text on their site mentions the best sound will be had when the feet are twisted so the logo is facing forward or 180 degrees. That strikes me as a rather odd claim, especially for a product that seems to target the pro audio market.

Second, make sure you check thread sizes before buying as I’m pretty sure the thread size on the Ultima 2 series isn’t listed as one of the options. I recall that when I bought my Salon 2’s, I was going to order alternate spikes and couldn’t find anything with the correct thread size. The included spikes seem to work well though.
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post #11179 of 16554 Old 02-04-2018, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I saw/heard a demo of the Gaia feet at last years RMAF. I didn’t do much critical listening, but there was a noticeable *difference* in the sound of the two pairs of identical speakers they were switching between. They are pricey but look well made, although I’m not sure if the difference was quite worth the cost.

I’m debating adding SVS isolation feet to Revel F208’s. My living room floor is quite live and if it makes a difference, great. If not, they are really easy to return. Plus, it’s $100 for 8 feet, much less expensive.
I started using my F208s with nothing (no spikes, no feet etc).

I tried those SVS isolation feet. The F208's wobbled too much for my taste. Not a good solution IMO.

I then installed the Revel spikes with the rounded end down on my tile floors. Very happy. Improved the sound too though some folks say they should be fine without them.
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post #11180 of 16554 Old 02-04-2018, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I started using my F208s with nothing (no spikes, no feet etc).

I tried those SVS isolation feet. The F208's wobbled too much for my taste. Not a good solution IMO.

I then installed the Revel spikes with the rounded end down on my tile floors. Very happy. Improved the sound too though some folks say they should be fine without them.
Thanks for the heads up.
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post #11181 of 16554 Old 02-05-2018, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
Anyone have experience with IsoAcoustics products?
Specifically these:

http://www.isoacoustics.com/products...eries/gaia-ii/

I'm generally skeptical of expensive tweaks but isolation does have validity to me, it's just at what cost.
I've read several reviews etc., and while $600 is not inexpensive to me it's not outrageous especially compared with other isolation products
I've seen that are nothing more than sorbothane that I can and have purchased on McMaster-Carr relatively cheap.

My Studio2s are going to be sitting on mahogany floors. I've considered using the included spikes using the nylon ends and placing them 1/4 thick high density sorbothane.
Not very attractive except for the price
I've used the same material under my front load washer and it positively stops the washer from walking.
Also on my DIY equipment rack which is hell-built for stout.

BTW, if you are unfamiliar with the M-C site I highly recommend it for all manner of hardware.

As always, I'm not looking to spark a contentious back n forth about snake oil products and I'm not going to argue about any of them.
I've tried one of the ISO-acoustics products: the iso-pucks.

Like you, I find the idea of isolation for something like speakers to be plausible, yet I'm also skeptical (as I'm skeptical of many high-end claims, especially of the "tweak" variety).

I bought some iso-pucks to try when constructing a new stand for my big new turntable, to try as a layer of isolation. (Again, isolation from vibration for turntables seems a good idea. After all, they work via amplifying vibration, and it's not for nothing that a large goal for turntable manufacturers is reducing spurious vibration in the design. Claims that amplifiers, CD players etc. benefit similarly from isolation products do not strike me as being so credible).

I didn't get quite the results I was hoping for from the iso-pucks. Another set of spring-based isolation pods proved far better in terms of felt and measurable isolation from vibration. But since the iso-pucks are sold for use under speakers as well, and my Thiel speakers were a suitable weight for the iso-pucks, I tried placing the 4 pucks under one speaker to compare. I'd had an in-stores of the isoacoustic Gaia footers where they do a similar demo - one speaker on the footers, one off, and switch the balance between. I did hear a difference in sound so that was interesting. But the thing is simply raising a speaker is likely to change the sound as you are changing the relationship of the woofers with the floor, the driver height relative to your ear, etc. So untangling a difference of simply raising the height vs actual "isolation" can be tricky.

Also, though the isoacoustic products are stated to be designed to allow more movement "front to back" and less "side to side" (which is why they tell you to place the logo facing you), in simply bending the product around I could not discern any less or more flexing in one direction.

Anyway, my results...at least with my speakers...weren't great. The sound of the speaker did change, sounding a bit more lush in the mids and "relaxed" sounding. But it lost some liveliness in the upper frequencies and possibly because of that seemed a bit less dynamic. The bass became a bit too rich and slightly bloated. I wondered if I was imagining this but every time I took the iso-pucks out sitting the speaker directly on the floor as normal (no spikes) the sound snapped right back to "normal" with tighter bass, and the preferably more open/realistic tone. In my system, I wouldn't choose to use those iso pucks.

So that's my anecdotal report on the iso-pucks. Take it for what it's worth :-)

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post #11182 of 16554 Old 02-05-2018, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by OsoSolitario View Post
Plexiglas, Yes!
I live in Spain (Europe), and almost everybody here says methacrylate (metacrilato in spanish).

Here the DIY bases

Where do you find such thick material and what speakers are those?
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post #11183 of 16554 Old 02-05-2018, 10:20 AM
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Where do you find such thick material and what speakers are those?
Believe or not, I found that piece of plexiglas on a garbage dumpster (next a bank office renovation work). It was 60cm long (about 23 inches).
I cut it in rectangles, I polished every side and finally I make a little mark on the middle with a drill as a target point for the speaker spikes.

That's how it looks now:



Speakers on the picture are JBL Ti10K. I owned them for ten years (I loved them)... now I have a pair of JBL Project Array 1400 which enjoy even more!



Titanium midrange on the Ti10K's were the same as used on the first series of Revel Salon.

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post #11184 of 16554 Old 02-05-2018, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I've tried one of the ISO-acoustics products: the iso-pucks.

Like you, I find the idea of isolation for something like speakers to be plausible, yet I'm also skeptical (as I'm skeptical of many high-end claims, especially of the "tweak" variety).

I bought some iso-pucks to try when constructing a new stand for my big new turntable, to try as a layer of isolation. (Again, isolation from vibration for turntables seems a good idea. After all, they work via amplifying vibration, and it's not for nothing that a large goal for turntable manufacturers is reducing spurious vibration in the design. Claims that amplifiers, CD players etc. benefit similarly from isolation products do not strike me as being so credible).

I didn't get quite the results I was hoping for from the iso-pucks. Another set of spring-based isolation pods proved far better in terms of felt and measurable isolation from vibration. But since the iso-pucks are sold for use under speakers as well, and my Thiel speakers were a suitable weight for the iso-pucks, I tried placing the 4 pucks under one speaker to compare. I'd had an in-stores of the isoacoustic Gaia footers where they do a similar demo - one speaker on the footers, one off, and switch the balance between. I did hear a difference in sound so that was interesting. But the thing is simply raising a speaker is likely to change the sound as you are changing the relationship of the woofers with the floor, the driver height relative to your ear, etc. So untangling a difference of simply raising the height vs actual "isolation" can be tricky.

Also, though the isoacoustic products are stated to be designed to allow more movement "front to back" and less "side to side" (which is why they tell you to place the logo facing you), in simply bending the product around I could not discern any less or more flexing in one direction.

Anyway, my results...at least with my speakers...weren't great. The sound of the speaker did change, sounding a bit more lush in the mids and "relaxed" sounding. But it lost some liveliness in the upper frequencies and possibly because of that seemed a bit less dynamic. The bass became a bit too rich and slightly bloated. I wondered if I was imagining this but every time I took the iso-pucks out sitting the speaker directly on the floor as normal (no spikes) the sound snapped right back to "normal" with tighter bass, and the preferably more open/realistic tone. In my system, I wouldn't choose to use those iso pucks.

So that's my anecdotal report on the iso-pucks. Take it for what it's worth :-)
Thank RH!

Your anecdotal take is excellent and in truth matches my expectation bias in that these devices may make a difference but a lot times different doesn't mean better to the listener's ear.

It's all about priorities and the money spent on expensive isolators I feel could either be spent on content or a new DAC.

 
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post #11185 of 16554 Old 02-05-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
I'm not looking for a new "toy" or wanting to piss away any amount of money just asking if anyone had experience with them.

Revel in thinking about details has provided double-ended spikes.
One end has metal spikes and the other end has some sort of nylon etc., half-round nub on the end for non-carpeted floors.

There are several approaches to isolation and some of the proponents are recording industry pros and respected audio gear designers that don't have a vested interest.
IsoAcoustics products are primarily sold through pro-audio retailers for whatever that's worth.

I don't equate these with little pebbles that channel waves from Hindu deities
Straight from one of the higher ups at Revel:

Wouldn’t recommend it, because you want your speakers to be solidly connected to the floor. The last thing you want is for your speakers to rock forward and backward while playing. That’s what you get with isolation, and no up-side.
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post #11186 of 16554 Old 02-05-2018, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Paapaa View Post
Would you guys recommend Revel F36 for front speakers in a living room where 50% of usage is listening to music and 50% is watchig movies/Netflix? No subwoofer, no surround speakers - at least for now.

I was listening to floor standing speakers in this price range in an hifi store (or whatever you call the shops which sell audio equipment) and Revel F35 was a very good candidate. I think it had quite neutral sound with no shortcomings with variety of music (from classical to progressive metal). I was not able to listen to F36 there but I guess it is quite similar to F35?

Are there other good floor standing speakers in this price range I should also consider? I'd love to compare Revel F36 to Elac FS 267 and maybe Monitor Audio Silver 500.
Can't speak to the Elac, but the Revel Concertas pretty soundly beat out Monitor Audio during the double blinds at Harman (not sure of the model #).

F36 just plays louder than the F35 and would have more bass. Sounds ideal for your "non-subwoofer" setup.
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post #11187 of 16554 Old 02-05-2018, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Straight from one of the higher ups at Revel:

Wouldn’t recommend it, because you want your speakers to be solidly connected to the floor. The last thing you want is for your speakers to rock forward and backward while playing. That’s what you get with isolation, and no up-side.

Interesting. And it makes sense.

(I'm continuing about this product because this thread is a "safe haven" from lots of audiophile tomfoolery, where discussions with respect to science and engineering actually occur).

I find the isoacoustics explanation for how they work to be wanting. In their video explanation, the presenter says to remember Newton's third law, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is used as a rational for the idea that the speaker drivers are creating an action in one direction (forward backward), and that this drives the speaker enclosure back and forth in that direction. The isoacoustic product purportedly allows the speaker enclosure sitting on it freedom of motion back and forth, dissipating the energy somehow. I'm still confused by this. First, speaker designers usually want to make the enclosure, especially the surface on which the drivers are affixed, to be as stiff and resistant of motion as possible, so the drivers are doing all the motion and the sound isn't "blurred" by the shaking surface on which they are mounted. I'm not sure how putting speakers on a soft surface that allows back and forth motion helps serves this purpose. First, is it actually possible the isoacoustics product allows the whole speaker to move back and forth with the same frequency of the drivers? All the drivers? Second, if the product could do that, the result would seem to me to undermine the speaker design. You want whatever the speaker is mounted on to stay still when the cone thrusts outward: that's how the sound is produced. If, in theory, the speaker cabinet actually DID go backward when the speaker driver went forward (to a significant degree)...wouldn't that mean a reduction in sound? It's like a football player throwing the ball while running backward, instead of standing. It undermines the very force one is trying to generate.

So I still can't wrap my head around it: whether the product actually reacts as it is purported to react when placed under a speaker, and if it does, how this would be a benefit.

I don't have enough technical design knowledge to figure it out either way.

All that said, I've found the folks at isoacoustics helpful when I was inquiring about their products, and I'm not above trying their other speaker footers "just to see." There are a couple interesting demos (not by isoacoustics) on youtube showing the sonic difference with their products, and the in-store demo I heard seemed better than what I got from the isopucks at home.
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post #11188 of 16554 Old 02-05-2018, 03:32 PM
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Back and forth movement? How much do the woofer cones weigh compared to the weight of the whole speaker? And the woofers move both forward and back in equal distances from the magnet. They push out in response to the positive part of the waveform, creating air compression in front of the driver, and they suck back in in response to the negative part of the waveform, creating rarefaction (partial vacuum). Have you seen how fast the cones move in and out while playing music? Most of the time it's so fast you can barely notice it. And that's supposed to make the big heavy cabinet sway back and forth? And even if it did, why on earth would we want that?

If cabinet movement is good, put the speakers on casters and watch your woofers drive them around the room. That would be fun.

I tried to hold my tongue because this is not a thread for yet another debate about faith-based audio foolery, but this is sheer nonsense.
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post #11189 of 16554 Old 02-05-2018, 03:40 PM
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Thanks guys!

R Harkness, my same reaction to reading\viewing the info on their website.

One of the reasons I earlier pointed out the massive baffle on the profile pic of the Ultima2 speakers.
This kind of cabinet construction is rooted in proven speaker design fundamentals.

I do remember from reading John Atkinson's cabinet resonance measurements and AFAIR there is a narrow band where the cabinet has some minor resonance but nothing even remotely serious.
Anyone who has ever moved or done a knuckle rap on a Studio or Salon will no doubt attest to the solidity of the cabinets.

My question has been asked and answered.
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post #11190 of 16554 Old 02-05-2018, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Straight from one of the higher ups at Revel:

Wouldn’t recommend it, because you want your speakers to be solidly connected to the floor. The last thing you want is for your speakers to rock forward and backward while playing. That’s what you get with isolation, and no up-side.
I was just going to say that.
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Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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